Ancient Craft Armor Reduction and Mob Mits

[Brinuw]

Has anyone figured out how much of a percent reduction to mits the -61855/-39256 armor from a traited and legacied Ancent Craft provides? I've tried multiple times to rap my head around the ratings to percentages formula but math without numbers is lost to my brain.

A related question, has anyone figured out a method of determining a mobs mitigations that doesnt involve guessing at what Remarkable or Incredible means from the Knowledge of the Lore Master. From just spamming Wizard's Fire on the first troll in Glimmerdeep I think i can roughly guess that it has ~30% fire mits on t1, ~40% on t2, and ~50% on t3; however KotLM just says Remarkable (t1), Remarkable (t2), and Incredible (t3) for each tier.

[Estelrandir]

It depends on the enemy. Different enemies have usually different values, so there is no point in trying to figure out concrete percentage.

While it is easy to bring the fire mits to 0 almost on any boss, it isn´t so with other mits, thus AC is alsways usefull, mainly for melee dds.

If you use KotLM and mitigation is written in grey color, you can be sure you are on 0% or almost 0.

[Brinuw]

How are you figuring Fire mits can be reduced so far as to have them 0% my best figure would be:
Sticky Tar: -10%
Catnip Benediction of the Raven: -20%
Mystifying Flame (Max Tier): -15%
Mystifying Flame (2 ranks): -10%
Mystifying Flame (1 rank): -5%
Molten Flame (-15% Armor*20%): -3%
Molten Flame (-10% Armor*20%): -2%
Molten Flame (-5% Armor*20%): -1%
Diminished Target: 5%
Total Fire Mitigation reduction = 81%

Even if you had an LM still runnin big battle set and a warden running FI armor that’d sill only be 96% total. Am I missing a contribution from somewhere?

[Osglinthor]

How are you figuring Fire mits can be reduced so far as to have them 0% my best figure would be:
Sticky Tar: -10%
Catnip Benediction of the Raven: -20%
Mystifying Flame (Max Tier): -15%
Mystifying Flame (2 ranks): -10%
Mystifying Flame (1 rank): -5%
Molten Flame (-15% Armor*20%): -3%
Molten Flame (-10% Armor*20%): -2%
Molten Flame (-5% Armor*20%): -1%
Diminished Target: 5%
Total Fire Mitigation reduction = 81%

Even if you had an LM still runnin big battle set and a warden running FI armor that’d sill only be 96% total. Am I missing a contribution from somewhere?

Mobs dont have 100% fire mitigation,iirc in t2 its ~65% or something like that cant remember when i tested it last time.So for example if its 60%-20%raven-10%tar that is 30%.

[Brinuw]

Mobs dont have 100% fire mitigation,iirc in t2 its ~65% or something like that cant remember when i tested it last time.So for example if its 60%-20%raven-10%tar that is 30%.

I assumed it wasn’t a direct reduction, meaning the mobs mits of 65% then reduction debuffs (30% you stated)made that 30% of 65% or 45.5% after debuffs.

[Napoleon21]

The way Brinuw describes it is the correct way the debuffs apply in this scenario, percentage mits debuff dont simply subtract an equal percentage but rather subtract pure rating (corresponding to percentage).
Should I recall correctly, the rating translation of the percentage takes into account also the rating at the moment the debuff applies. So applying first all % debuffs followed by pure rating debuffs resulted in sentiments of love from fellow dps.

[ColMcStacky]

I assumed it wasn’t a direct reduction, meaning the mobs mits of 65% then reduction debuffs (30% you stated)made that 30% of 65% or 45.5% after debuffs.

To my knowledge, all percent mitigation buffs/debuffs are additive in this game.

This means that something that reduces mitigations by 20% will make an enemy with 60% mits wind up with 40% mits. Likewise, an enemy with 20% mitigations will still be reduced by -20%, so it will have 0% mitigations.

The caveat is that enemies cannot drop below 0% mitigations, while players can have negative mitigations (not sure if this is true in PvP though, as some systems change slightly there).

[Osglinthor]

Just quick test on t2 mob,Desolation damage tooltip 24571,non crit hit 13130,non crit hit with -5% light damage 14358.If you do the math you will see it removes 5% light mitigation instead 5% of mobs % of light mitigation.Same way if you get debuffed in instance with -% mits,it removes said amount instead reduce your mits by 50% of their current %.Still try to test it yourself I might have made mistake somewhere since I rushed this.

[Estelrandir]

I am here on Osglinthor and ColMcStacky side. If you debuff by 20%, then 20% are substracted from current percentage, .e.g. from 60% to 40%.

There is a simple reasing for this: 100% dmg reduction means no damage. There are only few enemies with full immunity (e.g. first boss in sg against fire).

Mobs dont have 100% fire mitigation,iirc in t2 its ~65% or something like that cant remember when i tested it last time.So for example if its 60%-20%raven-10%tar that is 30%.

I think 65% is too high. I remember 1 boss fight with rks and 1 warden in raid and there was nothing to debufff on fire for me (grey description in KotLM without tar or raven). I would guess 45-60%, but I never measured it exactly.

New 3-man and TG t3 might be exception to this: their mitigations are very high. Amboss on t3 doesn´t have such high values.

[Napoleon21]

Is there a reason why debuffs which express percentages work differently on NPCs than players? If so please explain because there might have been something I missed over the recent past.

A subtraction of the rating that reflects the percentage is what occurs on players, as it can be tested for example during a spar.
So -20% fire mits would mean -20% of the total amount of fire mitigations on target expressed in rating. Further to that the total amount would reflect the value on target when the skill applies.

If I recall correctly the mitigations on mobs were such that could give a pseudo result because the reduction of rating was similar to the reduction as expressed in percentage.

All arguments appreciated, if there has been a change I am not aware of regarding I would really like to know as it is a big deal. Cheers to all.

[ColMcStacky]

Is there a reason why debuffs which express percentages work differently on NPCs than players? If so please explain because there might have been something I missed over the recent past.

A subtraction of the rating that reflects the percentage is what occurs on players, as it can be tested for example during a spar.
So -20% fire mits would mean -20% of the total amount of fire mitigations on target expressed in rating. Further to that the total amount would reflect the value on target when the skill applies.

If I recall correctly the mitigations on mobs were such that could give a pseudo result because the reduction of rating was similar to the reduction as expressed in percentage.

All arguments appreciated, if there has been a change I am not aware of regarding I would really like to know as it is a big deal. Cheers to all.

I don't know if this is true for mitigation debuffs. I just remember in the past testing (I think) Fire/Frost-Lore on a friend in a spar, and it actually worked additively, not multiplicatively. I don't know if this was a random bug that was fixed, or if I'm simply misremembering what debuffs I checked, but I thought it was very weird.

I would assume, if I am correct about this, that the reasoning is to make things more balanced when it comes to PvP. If debuffs like Fire/Frost-Lore, Trick: Disable (Burg), etc., were as strong against other players as they were against NPCs, it would be pretty hard to play against groups that have access to these, and would result in much worse balance overall.


When it comes to mitigations, I'm almost positive that everything (percentage buffs/debuffs) is additive in every situation. Almost. LOTRO can be weird sometimes...

[Mithithil]

A thing worth considering.

For Anceint Craft armour debuff

A caster mob probably has the equivalent of light armour
A ranged mob probably has the equivalent of medium armour
A melee mob probably has the equivalent of heavy armour.

Compare the amount of rating removal with your bare armour rating and what it mitigates, ignoring essences, stat based boosts and so forth. That should be indicative of the reduction. Against casters its a lot, really quite a lot. Pretty much all of it in fact. It then starts to come down to their resistnace against Tactical, Song or what have you. I tend to see that as the equivalent of your mitigations and resistances from stats. I have always rather thought of the colour coding as being relative to the player, so white is "about the same as yours", green is "pretty feeble but don't ignore it" and purple is "you may wish to recondifer your tectics". Problem is, in the last couple of updates, mobs have been pretty much universally orange rated on most things, which isn't helpful. I do encourgae my parties to explot mob's weaknesses, in our case thats usually going to be fire but could be something else. I have never been certain, apart from fire, how worthwhile that is.

[Estelrandir]

in the last couple of updates, mobs have been pretty much universally orange rated on most things, which isn't helpful. I do encourgae my parties to explot mob's weaknesses, in our case thats usually going to be fire but could be something else. I have never been certain, apart from fire, how worthwhile that is.

It is true that in instances all enemies start at orange (with few exeptions - like red in TG t3 or some "xyz"-immune bosses). But usually after use of AC we can see the weaknesses.

E.g. in TG one can see that ancient dwarf weapon type is better against dragons than beleriand.


The main issue is fire. LM+RK brings fire resistance on 0 (with few exceptions of enemies with (partial) fire-immunity) and this leads automatically to the winner without any deeper knowledge. Trolls can have weaker light resistance than fire resistance, but with debuffs we bring fire to 0 while light not.


Of course, melee classes can´t use fire type, so this analyses is meaningful for them. But then they would need a stock of different LI titles to change it with every fight. E.g. in TG we have dragons (ancient dwarf) and orc (beleriand).


Warden+beo can be a good choice for maxing melee damage. Not sure which other classes can reduce physical reduction. But then we will get to the melee vs ranged setup of raid/group. One focuses on lowering the physical reduction, the other the fire reduction.

[CaerArianrhod]

Has anyone figured out how much of a percent reduction to mits the -61855/-39256 armor from a traited and legacied Ancent Craft provides? I've tried multiple times to rap my head around the ratings to percentages formula but math without numbers is lost to my brain.

A related question, has anyone figured out a method of determining a mobs mitigations that doesnt involve guessing at what Remarkable or Incredible means from the Knowledge of the Lore Master. From just spamming Wizard's Fire on the first troll in Glimmerdeep I think i can roughly guess that it has ~30% fire mits on t1, ~40% on t2, and ~50% on t3; however KotLM just says Remarkable (t1), Remarkable (t2), and Incredible (t3) for each tier.

All Mobs has a range for each tier of mitigation:
Say it that way: 0---5---10---15----20
If the mob has 11 mitigation and you are using AC, it is very likely that you see a change in the mitigation tier, whereas if it is 14 you may not see any change with KotLM.
The wiki article https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Kno...he_Lore-master is still accurate on most part.

Armour value is an exception to other mitigations as any percentage is converted back to rating to do the calculations. The AC trait (which says: "At max rank, your armour is 5% more effective.") is a good example for that: from your base armour value the 5% is calculated back to rating and then this rating is added to your armour value and with that to your physical mitigation too, but only "rating x 0.2" is added to your tactical mitigation as rating.

However the system is utterly broken due to various cap updates and hard coded caps etc. etc. Best to see how the "base" for percentage calculation is changing if you look at the LM's pet morale scaling like here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...aling-issue(s)