@Vastin - Beorning Tank Needs a Nerf

[dsltn07]

Shield taunt isn't a taunt(wrong namegiving) just create threat (around 25k) which is overwrite by one attack. And war cant is useful but the threat is overwriten with one to two skills too you use it more for the - 5% out dmg.
As said every tank needs it's taunts to tank.
Having more as one give this class the opportunity to ignore the mechanic and do just taunt tanking which is redicolous.
But this would just solche this Balance Problem which is caused through a stupid aggrosystem.
Best would be anyway taht they overwork the aggro system completely or better go back to pre HD.

So what you’re saying now is that this is not a Beo vs guard problem, and in fact an issue with the damage scale getting out of control versus the threat system? Because I could agree with that. In response to that, there’s nothing that needs to be done class-wise to balance until the damage/threat mechanics are rebalanced. Those mechanics cannot be balanced until stat derivations are fixed. Stat derivations cannot be fixed until itemization is fixed, itemization cannot be fixed until class balance is normalized.....you see where this is going?

[ColMcStacky]

So what you’re saying now is that this is not a Beo vs guard problem, and in fact an issue with the damage scale getting out of control versus the threat system? Because I could agree with that. In response to that, there’s nothing that needs to be done class-wise to balance until the damage/threat mechanics are rebalanced. Those mechanics cannot be balanced until stat derivations are fixed. Stat derivations cannot be fixed until itemization is fixed, itemization cannot be fixed until class balance is normalized.....you see where this is going?

I would be all for a threat system revamp, where threat multipliers for every tank is looked at and adjusted to make spam-taunting a thing of the past. What dsltn07 said here is true though. It comes down to a matter of priorities, where certain issues in-game need to be addressed before other systems are changed/fixed. If this isn't done in the right order, SSG is ultimately wasting time and resources on nothing more than a band-aid solution that will become obsolete in a few months time.

[Mukor]

Perhaps shield taunt may need a buff then?. Give it a force taunt and increase its cooldown maybe or just lower Challenge to pre nerf 30 seconds, it worked fine back then without issues i think.

But until the aggro system rework, i would leave the Beorning well alone, it is working well and so is the Guardian as far as i know.

Let the developers spend their time on content etc rather than work that actually does nothing really.

Shield taunt as a taunt will bring nearly nothing a skill target ed on four locked behind a event or you need to use two others before it

So what you’re saying now is that this is not a Beo vs guard problem, and in fact an issue with the damage scale getting out of control versus the threat system? Because I could agree with that. In response to that, there’s nothing that needs to be done class-wise to balance until the damage/threat mechanics are rebalanced. Those mechanics cannot be balanced until stat derivations are fixed. Stat derivations cannot be fixed until itemization is fixed, itemization cannot be fixed until class balance is normalized.....you see where this is going?

Jep in this we are at one point. They lost the big view.
Even with factor four on dmg to to threat we're far overparsed from this insane high dps. But this dps is needed in many cases to succeed the raid or even instance (dmg races).
So we would need to do more dps as well which means going more offensive (crit/finesse...) but then we die to fast vs the insane high incoming hits.
What could be done for the threat system for all is increasing the factor. Or make our skills/some of them threat tapping or go back to a system in which is having the aggro not just the Job of the tanks ( ebing Ire pre HD for example or provoke).

[Iluvata]

After Tuesday's patch (reduced morale of adds, seemingly removed Ice Drake's -50% Frost mit debuff), the Beorning is now able to easily main tank the entire Anvil Raid.

I cleared T2 with no deaths on bosses 2-4 and my friend did a T3 (excluding boss 4) with only a few deaths on Boss 2. Arguably the hardest fight for tanks is boss 2. The rotation of dwarves this week was brutal (one extra mob, one boss needs constant re-taunts). Did it twice with a beorning.

Absolutely 0 point now of bringing in a guardian. Unless your group doesn't like to speed things up with Bees and Crush.

Please fix this SSG. The beorning can do everything the guardian can, and then it can swap to heals.


And for reference: Isvitha, all of Boss 2, Karazgar, Hrimril, and some trash mobs are almost entirely physical damage. Only the Boss 1 adds, Vethug, Boss 4 adds, and some trash pulls are tactical. Anvil is not all tactical.

[Happychappy]

After Tuesday's patch (reduced morale of adds, seemingly removed Ice Drake's -50% Frost mit debuff), the Beorning is now able to easily main tank the entire Anvil Raid.

I cleared T2 with no deaths on bosses 2-4 and my friend did a T3 (excluding boss 4) with only a few deaths on Boss 2. Arguably the hardest fight for tanks is boss 2. The rotation of dwarves this week was brutal (one extra mob, one boss needs constant re-taunts). Did it twice with a beorning.

Absolutely 0 point now of bringing in a guardian. Unless your group doesn't like to speed things up with Bees and Crush.

Please fix this SSG. The beorning can do everything the guardian can, and then it can swap to heals.


And for reference: Isvitha, all of Boss 2, Karazgar, Hrimril, and some trash mobs are almost entirely physical damage. Only the Boss 1 adds, Vethug, Boss 4 adds, and some trash pulls are tactical. Anvil is not all tactical.

The Beorning was designed as a jack of all trades and is not free to play like the guardian is. If it isnt competetive with other roles then it will just not be picked again as it was before. seems you want it back to the point of useless so your Guardian can have the limelight again. Are you asking for them to change how the Beorning actually plays and what it can do? because you have no chance lol. How is it different to a Captain? they can tank and heal ( which is due a buff to healing probably and a nerf to Revealing mark hopefully, which IS OP lol) and buff dps ( far better to a group than the Beornings dps lol) and they are due a rework that could potentially buff them a lot.

You can take things away from the Beorning if you wish but then said Beornings will cry they dont have what the Guardian has and ask for nerfs to the Guardian. Can you see where this will all go? Reduced skills and very boring copies of each other. The Guardian brings things the Beorning does not also, so nerf the Beorning then nerf the Guardian, rinse and repeat. Will that work?

Can Guardians not main tank the entire raid now? Is the raid easier now in readiness for the extra tiers?

[Iluvata]

Before I respond to you Happychappy, I want to restate that I am not hating on the Beorning. A lot of people are getting overly defensive about the Beorning in this thread. Very greedy people that don't want other classes to have fun.


Now to you Happychappy. Thank you for your reply.

The Beorning was designed as a jack of all trades and is not free to play like the guardian is. If it isnt competetive with other roles then it will just not be picked again as it was before. seems you want it back to the point of useless so your Guardian can have the limelight again. Are you asking for them to change how the Beorning actually plays and what it can do? because you have no chance lol.

I'm fine with them being a jack of all trade. But everyone here wants them to be a master of all trades. Beorning a very viable T3 healer and now a very viable T3 tank.

Why can't the beorning fall back into a secondary tanking role like the captain? Captains can't main tank, but they are the main buffer. Beornings can currently main heal and main tank.
Insanely enough, the beorning can tank everything in the Anvil. Im talking about Boss 1, Boss 1 Adds, Trash to Boss 2, All of Boss 2, trash to Boss 3, Boss 3 itself, Boss 4, and Boss 4 Adds. Everything. Beorning can also heal all of those pulls easily.

How is it different to a Captain? they can tank and heal ( which is due a buff to healing probably and a nerf to Revealing mark hopefully, which IS OP lol) and buff dps ( far better to a group than the Beornings dps lol) and they are due a rework that could potentially buff them a lot.

I do not want the beorning to be useless. If you read my previous posts you will see that I am petitioning for the beorning to still be able to tank, but not main-tank. Kind of like the captain. They should be able to tank Boss 1, Boss 3, and Boss 4, and even some trash pulls. But they should not be able to main-tank the Boss 1 Adds, Boss 2, Boss 4 Adds. Kinda like the captain.

Im not asking for a big change. Just a small nerf so that it can still tank, just not main tank.

By the way, eliminating revealing mark would make a 2nd captain pretty much useless, no one would take two. No one even takes two guards. But right now, you can easily sustain 3 beornings in a raid.

You can take things away from the Beorning if you wish but then said Beornings will cry they dont have what the Guardian has and ask for nerfs to the Guardian. Can you see where this will all go? Reduced skills and very boring copies of each other.

I know that will happen. It is clear from this thread that beornings are really just big babies and not bears at all haha. They can fulfill two roles right now and that's not enough for them.

Can Guardians not main tank the entire raid now? Is the raid easier now in readiness for the extra tiers?

Guardians can also main tank the entire raid. But there is no point in bringing one when a Bear can also main tank it while also giving Armour Crush and Bees. It is just not efficient to bring a guardian in. The extra tiers will, in all likelihood, not be added for a few months.

The Beorning will become especially powerful once teal essences and the updated craftable runes are released. They will be able to change into man form at will without sacrificing mitigations. It will not scale well.




When I ask which tank I should bring, its always Beorning. Because they are the best.
When I ask which DPSer I should bring, its always Hunter or RK, but champ is fine as long as there isn't already one in the group.
When I ask which healer to bring, the answer is always "Mini is best, but it really doesn't matter, they all work".

[dsltn07]

Before I respond to you Happychappy, I want to restate that I am not hating on the Beorning. A lot of people are getting overly defensive about the Beorning in this thread. Very greedy people that don't want other classes to have fun.


Now to you Happychappy. Thank you for your reply.



I'm fine with them being a jack of all trade. But everyone here wants them to be a master of all trades. Beorning a very viable T3 healer and now a very viable T3 tank.

Why can't the beorning fall back into a secondary tanking role like the captain? Captains can't main tank, but they are the main buffer. Beornings can currently main heal and main tank.
Insanely enough, the beorning can tank everything in the Anvil. Im talking about Boss 1, Boss 1 Adds, Trash to Boss 2, All of Boss 2, trash to Boss 3, Boss 3 itself, Boss 4, and Boss 4 Adds. Everything. Beorning can also heal all of those pulls easily.



I do not want the beorning to be useless. If you read my previous posts you will see that I am petitioning for the beorning to still be able to tank, but not main-tank. Kind of like the captain. They should be able to tank Boss 1, Boss 3, and Boss 4, and even some trash pulls. But they should not be able to main-tank the Boss 1 Adds, Boss 2, Boss 4 Adds. Kinda like the captain.

Im not asking for a big change. Just a small nerf so that it can still tank, just not main tank.

By the way, eliminating revealing mark would make a 2nd captain pretty much useless, no one would take two. No one even takes two guards. But right now, you can easily sustain 3 beornings in a raid.




I know that will happen. It is clear from this thread that beornings are really just big babies and not bears at all haha. They can fulfill two roles right now and that's not enough for them.



Guardians can also main tank the entire raid. But there is no point in bringing one when a Bear can also main tank it while also giving Armour Crush and Bees. It is just not efficient to bring a guardian in. The extra tiers will, in all likelihood, not be added for a few months.





When I ask which tank I should bring, its always Beorning. Because they are the best.
When I ask which DPSer I should bring, its always Hunter or RK, but champ is fine as long as there isn't already one in the group.
When I ask which healer to bring, the answer is always "Mini is best, but it really doesn't matter, they all work".

So because you’re clearly wrong, you’re going to call everyone who disagreed with you a baby? Ok, that’s a strong argument.

Guardians are stronger than Beo, it’s obvious if you’ve played either class.

Why in the world would you “sustain 3 Beornings” in a raid? Yes, you can take 3 with 2 healing and 1 tank. Is it best or optimal? No, not by a long shot. Is Beo best healer? No, that’d be the minstrel now. Does Beo offer best raid support? No, that’s be captain. Is Beo most resilient and easiest to heal? No, that’d be guardian.

Yes a Beorning has a viable role raiding now, finally, after years. Is it the best specialist at any of those roles? No. Why do you want it nerfed? The current raid does not require a guardian. That’s a raid design issue. RK was just nerfed super hard because of raid mechanics being poorly designed, now you want to nerf a second class because of poor raid design? If you truly feel your guard has been outclasses then protest these silly dps race bosses, that is why the guard is a poor option. If you can kill a boss in 3 minutes then why compromise dps buffs when you can easily chain RK fates, cappy bubble, tank cooldowns, and kiting to buy dps time?

With the most recent patch, a second tank is not even required for the entire raid. Talking about off tanks and main tanks is pointless. Either you can do it, or you can’t. Captain has a unique position as boss tank due to their buffs and limited single target skills. This allows them to be better than guards and Beo in certain situations.

[TheRedfox]

Meanwhile, I'm all "we should boost blue champs and wardens so we can have a wide array of tanks available and online at any time. While we're at it, we can just give guards more redline DPS so they'll have a dual spec too."

[ColMcStacky]

A lot of people are getting overly defensive about the Beorning in this thread. Very greedy people that don't want other classes to have fun.

I don't mean to be rude, but if you are telling me you have tanked any T2 or higher content given your understanding of the Beorning, that is just more evidence that it is OP. You are clearly not in tune with how to play the class and if you managed to tank T2/T3, that shows how little skill is needed.

~One of these things is not like the other!~

It seems like someone getting overly defensive in this thread would be the creator of it, methinks. Someone challenging your proposal for nerfing Beornings (and rightly so) does not give you the right to resort to ad hominem attacks. Instead, maybe try refuting their points instead? If you can't converse in a civil manner, why are you even here? But anyway...

I'm fine with them being a jack of all trade. But everyone here wants them to be a master of all trades. Beorning a very viable T3 healer and now a very viable T3 tank.

Why is this a bad thing? With trait trees, each line stands on its own merit, as opposed to how it was with the old trait system we used to have. As such, every line should be viable for its purpose, not just one or two. The Beorning being a "jack of all trades" is referring to how it has tank, DPS, and healing traitlines. The way the game is now though, if it is not directly competitive in each role, and is instead handicapped because of its versatility, the Beorning will fall back into antiquity, being the red-headed stepchild of LOTRO again, like it was for the past 4-5 years.

This doesn't just apply to the Beorning either, it applies to every class (in case that actually does need to be explicitly stated, for some reason...).

Why can't the beorning fall back into a secondary tanking role like the captain? Captains can't main tank, but they are the main buffer. Beornings can currently main heal and main tank.

Beorning wasn't a "secondary tanking role" in the past. It was a maintank that in most situations could not function well enough to perform its job. If tanking got nerfed on beorning, then what would there be to make up for the nerf? The reason Cappies are secondary tanks is because they have worse threat generation/agro, and a lot more support. Beornings won't be able to compete with Cappies in this role, so you would end up making them worthless again.

Lets look at all the tanks. We have Guard, Beorning, Cappy, Warden, and Chump.

Out of this list, Guards/Beornings are the only main-tanks that are strong enough to stand on their own merit. Wardens are still fairly weak because of their lack of cooldown skills, and reliance on gambits that are a shorter duration than they should be, and Champs are completely left in the dark, not having good cooldowns, threat gen, self heals, survivability, or support.

Cappy is the only class that really functions well as a secondary tank, as it is the only class that can off-tank while supporting a main-tank.

Insanely enough, the beorning can tank everything in the Anvil. Im talking about Boss 1, Boss 1 Adds, Trash to Boss 2, All of Boss 2, trash to Boss 3, Boss 3 itself, Boss 4, and Boss 4 Adds. Everything. Beorning can also heal all of those pulls easily.

As a class that has both a tank line and a heal line, why should Beorning not be able to tank or heal any of these things? Are you suggesting that either of these traitlines should be changed so as to not be viable, because that is exactly what it sounds like.

I will even go one step further and say that Guard, Beorning, Warden, AND Champ should be able to main-tank every encounter in the raid. The way that the different tanks are set up trait/skill-wise, Cappy is the only tank that does not have a toolkit which suggests an ability to main-tank, being a support class.

I do not want the beorning to be useless. If you read my previous posts you will see that I am petitioning for the beorning to still be able to tank, but not main-tank. Kind of like the captain. They should be able to tank Boss 1, Boss 3, and Boss 4, and even some trash pulls. But they should not be able to main-tank the Boss 1 Adds, Boss 2, Boss 4 Adds. Kinda like the captain.

Let's play devil's advocate here. Let's say that SSG listens to you. Beornings got their tankline nerfed, and they can't maintank anymore. They are now relegated to being single-target tanks. What other class would be able to maintank then? Guard would. Do you believe that Warden or Champ is able to maintank a t3 Anvil raid as they are now? I certainly don't. Why should Guardians have such a unique role where they are unable to even be replaced by anything else if there are no Guardians available, especially considering there are 3 other classes (excluding Cappy) which theoretically share a job with the Guardian.

Is it possible that you're the one being a little selfish here, not liking that there is now a tank which can be used interchangeably with Guards? Keep in mind, Beornings bring more support to the table, yes, but Guards are still just as sturdy, have comparable HPS (even higher HPS than Beorning tank when the Guard is in yellow), and have more cooldowns to help them survive when things don't go as planned. Beornings haven't replaced Guards entirely, they are just interchangeable now. Guards are a more stable tank whereas Beornings are a bit less stable, but bring more support to the group to compensate.

Im not asking for a big change. Just a small nerf so that it can still tank, just not main tank.

You're asking for the Beorning's blue-line to be made useless. Making it an off-tank instead of a main-tank would require reworking the traitline to give it the necessary tools to complete this task. Right now, Beornings have no tools to support another tank when in blue. The amount of work required to make Beornings balanced as secondary tanks is just not worth the time, especially when there are so many other classes that are struggling to find their niche as it is.

By the way, eliminating revealing mark would make a 2nd captain pretty much useless, no one would take two. No one even takes two guards. But right now, you can easily sustain 3 beornings in a raid.

I disagree. Even without Revealing Mark, a yellow Cappy still would bring its abundance of cooldowns, 2-person rez, and support to the group. For example, Cappies can still use their banners (either Yellow or Red), Attack Duration buff from redline, Incoming Healing debuff (situational), group-wide cure (Muster Courage), group-wide (Make Haste), Last Stand + In Harm's Way, etc. Revealing Mark, while a crutch, is not the only thing that makes a Cappy worthwhile.

Also, while you can take 3 Beornings (you could probably even take 4, having 2 as tanks and 2 as healers), that is far from an optimal group. You could do this to prove a point, sure, but why would you when there are better choices. Likewise, you can take 2 Guardians to tank, but why would you? Maybe having a diverse group/raid is actually beneficial?

It is clear from this thread that beornings are really just big babies and not bears at all haha. They can fulfill two roles right now and that's not enough for them.

Again, resorting to ad hominem attacks. Maybe instead of attack us (while simultaneously admitting that you don't even consider yourself a Beorning, making it obvious that you are simply an insecure Guardian), you could try to refute our points as well as we have refuted yours?

Guardians can also main tank the entire raid. But there is no point in bringing one when a Bear can also main tank it while also giving Armour Crush and Bees. It is just not efficient to bring a guardian in. The extra tiers will, in all likelihood, not be added for a few months.

When trying to speedrun, no, its not. To my knowledge though, Guardian was never the go-to tank for speedrunning though. When first trying to get through though, a Guardian is optimal because of the excess of cooldowns that it has.

The Beorning will become especially powerful once teal essences and the updated craftable runes are released. They will be able to change into man form at will without sacrificing mitigations. It will not scale well.

Likewise, every other class will scale just as well as the Beorning with newer essences. How is this an issue for Beornings specifically?

Why would a Beorning want to drop into man-form anyway? The only reason to do so is to use Guarded Attack to maintain your mitigations, but Parries/Evades do this for you anyway. What else is there in man-form to make dropping into man-form such a terribly broken thing while tanking? Keep in mind, even if Beornings have capped mits in man-form with new essences, we still lose a chunk of Crit Def, and a +20% morale buff, so it still isn't exactly worthwhile.

[ColMcStacky]

Meanwhile, I'm all "we should boost blue champs and wardens so we can have a wide array of tanks available and online at any time. While we're at it, we can just give guards more redline DPS so they'll have a dual spec too."

We can be very good friends!

[Happychappy]

Its not good being a secondary role. They will struggle to group again. There are enough Guardians and Captain about.

A Captain can be a main tank for bosses, yes its different to Guardian but still viable and not secondary. A captain can be a main buffer. A captain with their rework may also be a main healer, we dont know yet. A Captain Tank brings way more than a Beorning does, with Revealing mark etc.
A Runekeeper is a main dps. A RK can also be a main healer. Yes they were nerfed somewhat but they are due a rework soon.

You can sustain 10-11 Runekeepers in a raid if you so wished. So what?

If the guardian had a red line buff and was a top dps and also a top tank, i would not ask for a nerf to it, but i would ask for a buff to Beorning also :P

I really don't think Armour crush and Bees is enough to not take a Guardian tbh. If min/maxers want to take a class because its 3% more effective then thats just sad lol. They need a nerf, not the Beorning :P

If they nerf the Beorning because of Guardians you can be sure that i will be asking for a Guardian nerf to certain skills that Beorning does not have haha.

[Iluvata]

I asked to close the thread.
Please stop posting.
Please close the thread.

[ColMcStacky]

At the beginning of the thread the argument was made that with hearten up on cooldown a Beo could equal a guardian's self heals, but you have to very regularly be in man form for that, which is going to require capped man Pmit, which also means you're sacrificing your entire Beo passive trait advantage
(we don't get shields, which seriously hurts our stats)

Yeah, to get maximum self-heals on a Beorning, there is a fairly substantial trade-off when it comes to mitigations/morale pool because of man/bear-form buffs. Even still, Guards can get higher HPS in many situations, especially in AoE fights if they trait yellow. I have a kinny who has seen upwards of 15-20k HPS on himself when he traited yellow on his Guard, although granted that is not the norm.

Mukor was also arguing that biting edge is OP, fine, whatever dude...I personally couldn't really care less if biting edge was removed if we gained some other utility. Remove biting edge and make the morale/armor buff apply to bear AND man form? Ok, I'm on board for that.

Eh, he can argue that Biting Edge is OP. Personally, I don't even trait the taunt for it. We have an abundance of taunts anyway, so I feel like dropping 5 points on Biting Edge is pretty wasteful. To each his own though.

I would definitely be on board with changing that trait to something else though. I think it'd be pretty cool if man-form got a passive buff, the way bear-form has one, but make it different. I'm just spitballing, but maybe this trait can be +3/6/9/12/15% Incoming Healing while in man-form? Sounds like a fair trade-off to me, considering you sacrifice +30% Armour and +20% Morale for it. It would also make man-form useful if youre in need of heals, and would make sense thematically, if you think of Beorn. Bear-form would be a hulking bear, having high mitigations/morale, but man-form can much more easily be encouraged/inspired by allies, resulting in slightly faster healing.

[TheRedfox]

A Captain can be a main tank for bosses, yes its different to Guardian but still viable and not secondary. A captain can be a main buffer. A captain with their rework may also be a main healer, we dont know yet. A Captain Tank brings way more than a Beorning does, with Revealing mark etc.

I'd love to see that; I miss actually healing on my cappy. Personally, I'd love to see all 5 tanking classes able to main tank stuff and all the healing classes (including LMs/Cappies) able to heal effectively with the right spec. We always see random posts about high end raids and only X class should be able to do X role but on world chat it's all about dwindling populations and trying to get slots filled for groups; having viable options helps us all. The difference between guard and bear tanks is very close, that's the kind of thing the devs should strive for across the board.

[ColMcStacky]

I'd love to see that; I miss actually healing on my cappy. Personally, I'd love to see all 5 tanking classes able to main tank stuff and all the healing classes (including LMs/Cappies) able to heal effectively with the right spec. We always see random posts about high end raids and only X class should be able to do X role but on world chat it's all about dwindling populations and trying to get slots filled for groups; having viable options helps us all. The difference between guard and bear tanks is very close, that's the kind of thing the devs should strive for across the board.

100% agreed. We need more options, not less, considering how stretched the end-game population is becoming these days.



Also, I just miss healing on my Cappy... Blue Cappy = best Cappy!

[dsltn07]

I would definitely be on board with changing that trait to something else though. I think it'd be pretty cool if man-form got a passive buff, the way bear-form has one, but make it different. I'm just spitballing, but maybe this trait can be +3/6/9/12/15% Incoming Healing while in man-form? Sounds like a fair trade-off to me, considering you sacrifice +30% Armour and +20% Morale for it. It would also make man-form useful if youre in need of heals, and would make sense thematically, if you think of Beorn. Bear-form would be a hulking bear, having high mitigations/morale, but man-form can much more easily be encouraged/inspired by allies, resulting in slightly faster healing.

The issue with it as I see things currently is that this trait was added to make up for our lack of a heavy shield. Without a heavy shield we are missing somewhere around 13 essences worth of tank stats that has to be made up for. The major problem with armor being a part of the on-off trait is that when you turn it off and your mits drop 15% you're suddenly taking somewhere on the scale of 50% more damage, and all this lets you do is USE the other half of your skillset, in consequence: the other half of the skillset is not used in situations requiring armor. This isn't a viable trade-off, and should apply permanently somehow or be made up as a flat level-scaled armor buff somewhere along the values of a heavy shield, and be accessible trait tree. Then the morale/inc healing etc could be properly allocated and balanced for man vs bear trade-offs as the passive trait. This would make for more interesting gameplay and easier balancing in the future.

[dsltn07]

Yes because the extra 60k morale above a guardian's max morale pool doesn't matter, right?
The beorning gets the same amount of physical and tactical mit as a guardian does from his shield just from being in bear form. Because of stat derivations, beornings get more evade and tactical mitigation passively from might than a guardian does. Switching to Bear form more than offsets the heavy shield. This is fact. No matter how you slice it, the beornings durability is not a problem. Why would you even bring up the heavy shield?? Did you not hear that beornings can tank T3 Anvil as they are right now? Do you want to add a heavy shield on top of that?

Every T2/T3 beorning switches to man form. Again, not to be mean, but stop using the fact that you don't play your class properly as an argument to have it buffed.

So much for logic and reasoning. You should be banned for fabrication of information. You have constantly responded with erroneous facts with the intent to mislead and harassment since this thread started. At this point, it is impossible for you to have so much false information. You must be purposefully exaggerating facts.

If SSG won't close this thread, then I will defend it fervently from trolls by using truth and fact.

If anything, you have harrassed everyone else in this thread. I'll say this again for you: The trait is a handicap to man form because it typically forces you to stay in bear form or lose your Pmit. Unless you can show me your amazing build you claim has 300k BASE (360k in bear form) morale unbuffed, AND capped Pmits in man form then you are the one who has been exaggerating.

What I said about the heavy shield was to illustrate why the trait is needed. without that trait for the armor value, bear form is 13 essences weaker just by not having a heavy shield (since you want to directly compare classes).

Because of stat derivations, beornings get more evade and tactical mitigation passively from might than a guardian does. Switching to Bear form more than offsets the heavy shield.

I'm sorry, what?

Might gives Beornings:
1:2 Pmastery
1:2 Tmastery
1:1 Crit rating
3:1 Parry rating
2:1 Block rating
1:1 evade rating

No Tmastery, and poor yet screwy BPE derivations. I don't know where you get your information from, but they're misleading you. You would know this if you had geared your "T3 main tank Beorning". Further, having 70k combined BPE rating from might does extremely little for survivability. I don't know the guards' derivations so I won't bother trying to compare.
Will on the other hand does offer 1:1 Tmit btw, and fate offers 2:1, but fate gear is nonexistent.

So much for logic and reasoning. You should be banned for fabrication of information. You have constantly responded with erroneous facts with the intent to mislead and harassment since this thread started. At this point, it is impossible for you to have so much false information. You must be purposefully exaggerating facts.

If SSG won't close this thread, then I will defend it fervently from trolls by using truth and fact.

Wow...

Edit: Man! this thread has gotten some views. I hope everyone out there has had a good laugh at this entertainment.

[Iluvata]

If anything, you have harrassed everyone else in this thread.

Look at your very first response to me in this thread.

I'll say this again for you: The trait is a handicap to man form because it typically forces you to stay in bear form or lose your Pmit. Unless you can show me your amazing build you claim has 300k BASE (360k in bear form) morale unbuffed, AND capped Pmits in man form then you are the one who has been exaggerating.

I am not going to show you my build because I would like to remain anonymous. If you don't believe me then so be it. My Bear has 360k morale buffed btw because beorning is not my main. If I cared to level its virtues, LIs, and give it proper gear, it would hit closer to 380k. Physical mitigation is nearly capped in man form with scrolls and buffs.

What I said about the heavy shield was to illustrate why the trait is needed. without that trait for the armor value, bear form is 13 essences weaker just by not having a heavy shield (since you want to directly compare classes).

Does that even matter? They are able to tank T3 Anvil already. Who cares about losing some stats in man form?

I'm sorry, what?

Might gives Beornings:
1:2 Pmastery
1:2 Tmastery
1:1 Crit rating
3:1 Parry rating
2:1 Block rating
1:1 evade rating

No Tmastery, and poor yet screwy BPE derivations. I don't know where you get your information from, but they're misleading you. You would know this if you had geared your "T3 main tank Beorning". Further, having 70k combined BPE rating from might does extremely little for survivability. I don't know the guards' derivations so I won't bother trying to compare.
Will on the other hand does offer 1:1 Tmit btw, and fate offers 2:1, but fate gear is nonexistent.

I misspoke in my last post about the might-Tmit. I meant to say might-BPE and fate-Tmit.

Might gives Beornings..................... And it give Guardians
1:2 Pmastery .............................. 1:2 Pmastery
1:2 Tmastery .............................. 1:1 Tmastery
1:1 Crit rating .............................. 0 Crit rating
1:3 Parry rating .............................. 1:2 Parry rating
1:2 Block rating .............................. 1:3 Block rating
1:1 evade rating .............................. 0 evade rating

I am easily able to hit over 30k might and 8k fate on both classes. That means the Bear passively gets 30k more BPE and 16k more tact mit.

Both of these offset the bonuses from the Heavy Shield. The armour value of the heavy shield is offset by the armour value gained from bear form. Then the Bear still gets the morale bonus.
I do have a T3 main-tank beorning so I don't get the point of harassing me about it. 70k BPE is also not even close to useless. That is a reduction of more than 5% damage (probably closer to 8%).

[TheRedfox]

The math just posted makes it sounds like a Beorning in bear form is about on par stats wise with a guard; which sounds like Vastin did a great job on the revamp. Having them that close together is amazing, that's awesome work he did.

I'd love to see a screenshot of your stats on your bear (only because my only bear is on the legendary server, my stack of 120s doesn't include one). You can easily black out your toon's name in any photo editing program and post it up anon via imgur.

[Mukor]

Defensive wise they're balanced.
Easier to heal vs offensive Support is fine too..
Still the problem which cause imbalance is three aoe taunts vs on with one miite cd.

[ColMcStacky]

The issue with it as I see things currently is that this trait was added to make up for our lack of a heavy shield. Without a heavy shield we are missing somewhere around 13 essences worth of tank stats that has to be made up for. The major problem with armor being a part of the on-off trait is that when you turn it off and your mits drop 15% you're suddenly taking somewhere on the scale of 50% more damage, and all this lets you do is USE the other half of your skillset, in consequence: the other half of the skillset is not used in situations requiring armor. This isn't a viable trade-off, and should apply permanently somehow or be made up as a flat level-scaled armor buff somewhere along the values of a heavy shield, and be accessible trait tree. Then the morale/inc healing etc could be properly allocated and balanced for man vs bear trade-offs as the passive trait. This would make for more interesting gameplay and easier balancing in the future.

Our mits don't exactly drop 15% by going from bear-form to man-form though. We lose +30% armour, which on my Beorning in my tank build, puts me from 240k Phys Mit down to 200k Phys Mit. This is only 4.5% difference, not counting mitigation penetrations.

If I want to sloppily account for the t3 penetrations of ~54k, I can take off some gear. I get 142k (51.3%) phys mit in man-form, and 170k (56.1%) in bear-form. This time, it's still only a difference of 4.8%. The Tact Mit difference is honestly pretty negligible, as it's only a change of ~8k (for me, at least).

Taking the numbers which account (roughly) for the mit pen, I take ~9% more damage from physical sources in man-form than bear-form. Tactical damage will be nearly identical (<1% difference).


This is far from a 15% drop in mitigations, and much less than a 50% increase in damage. You are able to drop into man-form, and it's not nearly as bad as people really say/think it is, although doing so at the wrong time could still be problematic. Personally, I do like that the armour buff is bear-form only, because it does make things a bit interesting, making you decide if the trade-off is worth it. I just would like man-form to similarly have a different buff that would be situationally better as well.


Also, anyone who has higher mitigations than I do will experience a smaller increase in their incoming damage due to diminishing returns of mitigations.

[Estelrandir]

Our mits don't exactly drop 15% by going from bear-form to man-form though. We lose +30% armour, which on my Beorning in my tank build, puts me from 240k Phys Mit down to 200k Phys Mit. This is only 4.5% difference, not counting mitigation penetrations.

If I want to sloppily account for the t3 penetrations of ~54k, I can take off some gear. I get 142k (51.3%) phys mit in man-form, and 170k (56.1%) in bear-form. This time, it's still only a difference of 4.8%. The Tact Mit difference is honestly pretty negligible, as it's only a change of ~8k (for me, at least).

Taking the numbers which account (roughly) for the mit pen, I take ~9% more damage from physical sources in man-form than bear-form. Tactical damage will be nearly identical (<1% difference).


This is far from a 15% drop in mitigations, and much less than a 50% increase in damage. You are able to drop into man-form, and it's not nearly as bad as people really say/think it is, although doing so at the wrong time could still be problematic. Personally, I do like that the armour buff is bear-form only, because it does make things a bit interesting, making you decide if the trade-off is worth it. I just would like man-form to similarly have a different buff that would be situationally better as well.


Also, anyone who has higher mitigations than I do will experience a smaller increase in their incoming damage due to diminishing returns of mitigations.

A little bit of math for physical mitigation:

If you have 75% mitigation, it means you take 25% damage.
If you have ca 5% lost of p. mit., you have 70% mit. and you take 30% dmg.

Damage increase from 25 to 30 is 20%.


And similarly, if the lost mit. woud be 15%, you would have just 60% mit and you would take 40% dmg.
From 25 to 40 is 60% dmg increase.


Conclusion:
If the lost percentage in mitigations was 15%, indeed the increase of incoming damage would be over 50% and dstln07 is correct here.

But since the mit lost is just around 5%, the true increased damage is around 20%. This is still a lot in my opinion.

I will ignore the -54k penetration, because it is only in 3-mans and TG, the raid has ca 14k armor penetration on t3. But if one wants the math, the lost of ca 10% mit means 40% incoming dmg increase.


What about tactical mitigation? As mentioned by ColMcStacky, the tactical mitigation barely changes.

[ColMcStacky]

A little bit of math for physical mitigation:

If you have 75% mitigation, it means you take 25% damage.
If you have ca 5% lost of p. mit., you have 70% mit. and you take 30% dmg.

Damage increase from 25 to 30 is 20%.


And similarly, if the lost mit. woud be 15%, you would have just 60% mit and you would take 40% dmg.
From 25 to 40 is 60% dmg increase.


Conclusion:
If the lost percentage in mitigations was 15%, indeed the increase of incoming damage would be over 50% and dstln07 is correct here.

But since the mit lost is just around 5%, the true increased damage is around 20%. This is still a lot in my opinion.

I will ignore the -54k penetration, because it is only in 3-mans and TG, the raid has ca 14k armor penetration on t3. But if one wants the math, the lost of ca 10% mit means 40% incoming dmg increase.


What about tactical mitigation? As mentioned by ColMcStacky, the tactical mitigation barely changes.

Point taken, I completely forgot to take into account the Guarded Attack buff. Also, it just dawned on me that dstln07 might've meant a 15% drop in mitigations when it comes to actual Phys Mit rating, not percentage. I just misread it.

Still, if you ignore Guarded attack (which I'm not really sure why you would, unless you do the stupid like me), my mathing checks out.

Also, if you factor in the mitigation set bonuses from Anvil (which I didn't as I don't have them), the difference would be even more drastic between the two forms.



If you ask me, this just further substantiates the claim that man-form needs some sort of buff to it in blue line the way bear-form has +Armour/Morale. My vote would be to Incoming Healing or BPE.

[dsltn07]

Point taken, I completely forgot to take into account the Guarded Attack buff. Also, it just dawned on me that dstln07 might've meant a 15% drop in mitigations when it comes to actual Phys Mit rating, not percentage. I just misread it.

Still, if you ignore Guarded attack (which I'm not really sure why you would, unless you do the stupid like me), my mathing checks out.

Also, if you factor in the mitigation set bonuses from Anvil (which I didn't as I don't have them), the difference would be even more drastic between the two forms.



If you ask me, this just further substantiates the claim that man-form needs some sort of buff to it in blue line the way bear-form has +Armour/Morale. My vote would be to Incoming Healing or BPE.

Trading off something isn’t bad, but I think fundamentally trading % armor value is bad for a tank. I’d rather the armor value became a flat bonus to man and bear to make up for the lacking heavy shield (like it does currently) Then have the 20% morale buff for bear and perhaps an incoming healing buff like 15-20% or something for man. This way there’s a fairly even trade between increasing inc heals and increasing max morale (reducing oneshot potential) to aid the healer.

OR if devs were so inclined, permanently apply the morale and armor buffs to both forms and then do a BPE/Inc heal trade between forms. This thematically makes a bit more sense to me and removes the silly max morale jumps, but could potentially be on the strong side of things. Perhaps reducing both % values to 20% instead but having both always apply..?

[Mukor]

How we get from Nerfing to buffing beotanks further. To be for sure the one and only choosen tank.