Rethink Dar Narbugud, please

[Frisco]

I really like most of the instance changes this last update. Vile Maw is slightly difficult again, I occasionally see a few people die in Filikul, and the 6-mans are a little less of a steamroll.

But DN got left in the dust. A really good raid that should be entertaining us for 3 more months is practically a ghost town.

Firstly, the loot/time ratio is abysmal. 2 First Age tokens for 1.5-2 hours, compared to 1 token in 3-10 minutes in Watcher and Turtle. To make it a little more worthwhile, I think the 12-man should drop tokens like it used to in the 6-man--pretty much everyone walked out with 3 apiece. That means bosses 1-4 should drop 10-12 tokens.

Secondly, the 400% morale increase for bosses was excessive. Part of the reason DN got so much play those first couple weeks was because we could create our own challenges and run with fewer people for more reward. Getting 12 people for a 2-hour commitment is really a slog right now. It was great to have the option of a 6-man. But that's practically a 3-hour instance now, again, all for 3 First Age tokens and a few other hit-or-miss items.

If 12-man rewarded players with ~3 emblems, and boss morale got cut back down to maybe 2.5 times their launch morale to encourage smaller groups (who could get 3-4 emblems) I think we could see DN become a common run again. Right now, you see maybe 1 or 2 PUGs a day on Anor, and even our large kin is only running 1-2 a week.

I get the whole "not everything should be easy/handed to you" argument, but these are the LS. We get 4 months with this content, and most people are here for nostalgia, not reusing 12-year-old strategy to lord gear over others. DN getting no love is a waste of a great instance. Does it really matter if we're able to grind out perfect passives on our LIs that we're going to trash later this summer anyway? The morale increase doesn't even make it harder--it just makes it longer. When we wanted a challenge before, we'd just 3-man, which was a ton of fun.

How about it, SSG? Get people in DN again?

[Laubgaenger]

I like DN.

I do not play it for loot only, i play it because it creates fun.

I would like that they fix the loot at the blind one and misstress, so we get gems for armor pices again.
I know you get it, when you play only with 6, but so new players and more cassuals player get no slots.
It is an option to split the Raid, but having together fun is also for me the core intention of raiding.

We puged and do Filikul -> Watcher -> DN and it was a nice fellowship (we had to reinvite to fill up a bit).
We had 7 as we start DN.
Many did not reach Level 60.

We tanked the Trolls separate, as i was formally planed. (See it as Training for the Trolls that come with Erebor :-) if that is you not fast enough)
Pressing Rocks at Zholuga is an option to reach blue.

We had Problems at Istum (to less moral of many chars) (some tries) and the unterstanding of damage stop at the Healing Flagit (2-3 tries).
Here we stop it was late too.

I think it is again a great option to play and enjoy the raid. As we did it in the first phase we could burn nearly everything down with damage and i like the mechanic of the raid.

Me for myself would like it, that the ID resets also daily, but i can understand that more random player would like to have more tries at the weekend.

3x Filikul and Watcher and you get the 1st Age item. So in one week a common Class is finished.

I would support the increasement of Nimrodelmarks, but not the downgrading of the raid to a 3man one again.

[Frisco]

I would support the increasement of Nimrodelmarks, but not the downgrading of the raid to a 3man one again.

I didn't suggest it be 3-mannable, only make 6-man feasible. We have 3 more months with this content. The nature of the LS is a lot of player turnover (heavy on nostalgia/people having the option of returning to fresh content on live servers), so having to reteach raids every time is less attractive now than it was at 60 cap.

[Onyi]

I didn't suggest it be 3-mannable, only make 6-man feasible. We have 3 more months with this content. The nature of the LS is a lot of player turnover (heavy on nostalgia/people having the option of returning to fresh content on live servers), so having to reteach raids every time is less attractive now than it was at 60 cap.

The current iteration of DN is absolutely doable with 5 people, depending on class set-up even conveniently doable with 4 people. Also, nostalgia means different things to different people. In my case nostalgia means getting to reexperience challenges I have worked through during the original MoM release. I strictly oppose any sort of nerf to group content unless additional scaling tiers are provided for those looking to raid/beat challenges rather than go on field-trips.

[Frisco]

The current iteration of DN is absolutely doable with 5 people, depending on class set-up even conveniently doable with 4 people. Also, nostalgia means different things to different people. In my case nostalgia means getting to reexperience challenges I have worked through during the original MoM release. I strictly oppose any sort of nerf to group content unless additional scaling tiers are provided for those looking to raid/beat challenges rather than go on field-trips.

You're not getting anything near the challenges of the original MoM regardless. If that's what you were hoping for out of the LS, I'm sorry. More mob morale does not in any way create a challenge. You still steamroll through DN, it just takes slightly longer.

To recreate any inkiling of MoM challenge, you need to do DN undermanned. However, bringing few enough people to CREATE that challenge, you also have to put up with this absurdly high boss morale which, again, provides no new challenge, it just takes longer.

Yes, it's currently doable with 6 or fewer people. But while that was a satisfying challenge when it only took 1-2 hours (prior to the latest update), after the morale increase it's the same challenge for the same loot, only it takes 3-4 hours.

Again, mob morale increase was not a measurable buff to difficulty, nor does it make DN any less of a "field trip". It just made it less fun.

[Akia]

@ Frisco check your pm's =)

[Onyi]

You're not getting anything near the challenges of the original MoM regardless. If that's what you were hoping for out of the LS, I'm sorry. More mob morale does not in any way create a challenge. You still steamroll through DN, it just takes slightly longer.

To recreate any inkiling of MoM challenge, you need to do DN undermanned. However, bringing few enough people to CREATE that challenge, you also have to put up with this absurdly high boss morale which, again, provides no new challenge, it just takes longer.

Yes, it's currently doable with 6 or fewer people. But while that was a satisfying challenge when it only took 1-2 hours (prior to the latest update), after the morale increase it's the same challenge for the same loot, only it takes 3-4 hours.

Again, mob morale increase was not a measurable buff to difficulty, nor does it make DN any less of a "field trip". It just made it less fun.

I am not arguing that increasing morale is a good way of balancing content. Regardless, what it did here is re-highlight mechanics you could otherwise skip through unproportional dps. This is especially visible in smaller groups, where soft-enrages like the one on Flagit and the Troll Twins (stacking +20% meele dmg) pose a much more serious threat. Further, difficult phases like the eye-phase on the Blind One or the last phase of Istum Last significantly longer.

DN has, without a question, become harder. Is it vanilla MoM hard? No. Do I want to give up on the slight increase in difficulty that provides some excitement and the necessity to theorycraft? No.

Again, in my opinion the best solution would be Tier 1,2,3. We will see.

[Frisco]

I am not arguing that increasing morale is a good way of balancing content. Regardless, what it did here is re-highlight mechanics you could otherwise skip through unproportional dps. This is especially visible in smaller groups, where soft-enrages like the one on Flagit and the Troll Twins (stacking +20% meele dmg) pose a much more serious threat. Further, difficult phases like the eye-phase on the Blind One or the last phase of Istum Last significantly longer.

DN has, without a question, become harder. Is it vanilla MoM hard? No. Do I want to give up on the slight increase in difficulty that provides some excitement and the necessity to theorycraft? No.

Again, in my opinion the best solution would be Tier 1,2,3. We will see.

I guess. I just don't find those things you mention at all difficult. The trolls barely tickle even with 10 buffs up. Flagit's enrage is actually a welcome break from his AoE and yanking, since he doesn't really hit hard. Same with the BO eye phase--it does practically no damage.

Istum, yeah, the last phase is a little longer. Same with last phase of BO--more chances for missed interrupts. Though in both cases if you have it to where you can survive for 1 minute, you can probably survive it indefinitely. I've definitely seen some chaos in less-experienced groups, but I don't think it's really challenging any serious raiders.

I get the desire for a challenge, which is why I never went in any group larger than 6 until the update. But now we're in some sort of purgatory. 12-man isn't difficult enough to feel like a challenge, nor rewarding enough to spend hours explaining and re-explaining, filling and refilling. And 6-man isn't fun or rewarding enough to be worth the slog through 4 million hit-point bosses that still aren't satisfyingly challenging. The reward/satisfation-to-time ratio is poor, and it's a shame to see such a good instance get so little play. Which is why I suggested a lesser morale increase, which would still ensure that you needed to actually pay attention to the few remaining difficult mechanics, yet not discourage people from undermanning, which I feel is a much better challenge.

They already said no tiers for DN, so I'm hoping the next 3 months aren't just turtle/watcher ad nauseam.

[Awelina]

DN is no challenge at all for 6 or 12 man, yes. Only way to make it fun is to go in without a real healer and have less than 6 players.

[Laubgaenger]

We did it today and get at the Blind One and the Misstress the Gems.

In Addition we get each 2 Nimrodel marks at the Misstress.

I want to say thanks to the whole Supportteam.
On side the GMs are the People to reach the Informations of the players to the developteam and the buffixteammembers.

Thanks for solving it.

We had this evening Fun and that is what counts. The topic was the loot, that shines again.

[Frisco]

If they had made Mistress always drop 2, that would've been a sufficient change to the 12-man at least. We only got 1 our last run, sadly. Though it would be nicer if those 12 extra emblems dropped on other bosses to encourage undermanning. And to discourage just getting locks to BO/Mistress and cutting out 80% of the raid.

Yeah, it's still fun every so often. I'm making suggestions that will make more people run it more often, without significantly reducing what challenge there is, while not making the rewards more easily obtainable than it already is via Turtle/VM.

I don't see many negatives. I just really want to see as many DN groups as there were in the weeks prior to the update. That was good, solid fun.

[Vanyaerunanethiel]

I am not going into details for it will be pointless. Incorrect, The raid is not difficult at all. For example I managed alone again to take first boss under half million Morale, an example, but that is of little importance. The problem is in players, their lack of motivation,unwilling to take something at least more challenging which will require minimal team work and effort, but of course tis easier to grind mindless Filiful raid for few minutes all day long and almost completely abandon Dar Narbugud or The Watcher, Typical,As expected:

Before it was too easy, now it is too "hard"

Yea you are right, people forgot about working for their weapons and gear. They have embraced ultra easy mode of doing Turtle soup and almost always 1st age Emblem, but ask yourself, what would you need a first age weapon if you seek to grind turtle and landscape content?

1st age weapons are incredibly easy acquired and I personally got tired of seeing World chat of constant Turtle and Grand Stair. I know well how players lack focus and bail out after even 1st death. Constant ridiculous mistakes on Flagit, cannot run out in time, Will not stop attacking ,Do not want to listen, leaving so soon,Lack of patience and nearly constant complaining. False excuses, "I have to go" "It is too difficult" and much worse...

2 hours is nothing, Make it triple or double at least a decade ago. Again as I mentioned , Players are used for simple and easy approach. Give them something larger,more complex , they will complain and seek nerf sooner or later.

Last night my friend was trying to find players for DN 2/12 .. And guess what Randir, 2 Full turtle groups farming. You do not need more evidence at all.

DN "getting no love" Problem is in you, not SSG. Forums truly made me sad. I was right again and I predicted the future once more, Of course I was and I always will be.

Longer could mean tougher as well, Mental battle. A lot of players cannot keep focus or rage quit. Longer battles can be physiologically draining ,again the proof is there. I was a witness of massive leaving and giving up.

4 Months is a huge amount of time, and If you are also convinced that 2 hours if a "Commitment" Than I truly suggest to re-think once again. DN is a walk under the mountain , the true issue is in player-base. Within Four months a passionate player can and will do miracles.

I used to spent hours and days even struggling with bosses and difficult tasks in LOTRO any many other games. 2 hours would pass in a blink of an eye. You already said everything in your statement. 2 hours is barely a warm up to complete tougher task, but do not worry, you are not the only one. I've seen complains about turtle too

Best Regards

P.S. If they make it shorter then the complains will be why is not longer

Make it longer ,the morale is excessive.

Before it was too easy

Next time it will impossibly hard.


SSG Do not do anything ,please.

There are few true warriors left within Middle-Earth. I am going to stick to my threads from now on. SSG You will always have my Blade and Wall of the Resolute Guardian shield. Do not pay attention to these comments to much, you are doing Marvellous work. Keep doing what you doing.

SSG should not re-think anything. A lot of players are in need of complete transformation and entirely different approach for I have been saying for years and my statement will be correct ,You will regret bashing,flaming,complaining and frustrating over LOTRO, when the time comes, LOTRO wont be no more. Embrace every moment while you can. You must read my last sentence again and again so it becomes in-printed in your mind. When LOTRO shut downs thou shalt lament of the days spent on forums and battling with keyboards warriors rather than playing and experiencing 120% game can offer you to every single detail and far ,far beyond. I did it and I am still doing it, After 30,000 hours+ Countless of tales,videos,screenshots,tears ,triumphs unnumbered I always return and I never get bored and I never will.

[Frisco]

You can't possibly think that the entire playerbase shares your...unique perspective.

DN "getting no love" Problem is in you, not SSG. Forums truly made me sad. I was right again and I predicted the future once more.

Please. Making instances desirable is the developer's responsibility. Like it or not, people play the game for reward. That reward is not always "I did this same instance with minimal effort for the 25th time, yay for me". For some that'll do it. Most people enjoy rewards that will help advance their character, however. It shouldn't take a psychologist to know that.

Prior to the latest update, the reward/time ratio was good. People were running DN all the time.

2 hours is nothing, Make it triple or double at least a decade ago.

In a brand new group maybe. It was a ~2-hour run in 2008. I can't imagine a group that would take 6 hours.

P.S. If they make it shorter then the complains will be why is not longer

Make it longer ,the morale is excessive.

I never heard a single complaint about DN prior to the update. Nor do I really hear them now. It's not about complaining. I'm not even complaining *here*. I've done DN plenty, both in 2008 and recently. It's about giving people something worthwhile and enticing to do so they stay logged in and active. I'm merely making a suggestion I feel will improve the game as a whole.

The proof is in the pudding. Endless DN runs prior to the update. Maybe a handful a day now. SSG is shooting themselves in the foot by making such good content only desirable to a select few. If your idea of a challenge is the "mental challenge" of mindlessly grinding through giant morale pools with little chance of failure, I don't know what to tell you except that most human beings don't agree with you. Have the self-awareness to realize that you're in an extreme minority who seeks out these sort of challenges for entertainment. Most people do it once, realize they can, and then move on if there is no other reward for doing so. But what SSG is--or should be--striving for is replayability.

[Varkking]

I really like most of the instance changes this last update. Vile Maw is slightly difficult again, I occasionally see a few people die in Filikul, and the 6-mans are a little less of a steamroll.

Turtle can be 3 manned now and Watcher is still a steamroll because of people ranged tanking this making it a fight where if the healer survives the initial big attack at the start of the flight you can sleep through the rest. Nobody takes the cleave damage and that was the biggest threat. Neither one of these are a challenge and that is why it is still completed daily.

But DN got left in the dust. A really good raid that should be entertaining us for 3 more months is practically a ghost town.

We do Kin runs on this just about daily and when I miss a kin run I join a random PUG for this just fine. I wouldn't say its a ghost town. The reason everyone joins Watcher and Turtle in chats is because you really don't need any sort of real group makeup for them. You can invite just about anyone you want and it will get killed. DN requires more effort than walk in and the boss dies.

Firstly, the loot/time ratio is abysmal. 2 First Age tokens for 1.5-2 hours, compared to 1 token in 3-10 minutes in Watcher and Turtle. To make it a little more worthwhile, I think the 12-man should drop tokens like it used to in the 6-man--pretty much everyone walked out with 3 apiece. That means bosses 1-4 should drop 10-12 tokens.

You are wrong about the loot/time ratio being abysmal. Turtle and Watcher do give 2 coins for 20 minutes of work, true. But then they are on a timer until the next day so they are giving you 2 coins per 24 hours and some legend xp items. DN requires about an hour of time and gives 2+ coins typically, a ton of legend xp items, blue loot worth wearing depending on class and gives you the currency for set pieces. Its not just the first age you are working towards by doing DN, its a bunch of armor pieces as well. You are strictly looking at these from a first age token sense. And if you are doing that then increasing the amount of tokens we can get daily makes even less sense for keeping people long term. You should be asking for longer lock timers. Imagine if we could 6 man this instance for you but 5 of us are fully geared. We could take somebody in here and get them 10-12 first age tokens in a single run and then do Turtle and Watcher for 2 more to get a minimum of 12 tokens a day? No class needs more than 3 first age weapons and 3 off hands. Under your new loot rules you would have all 6 legendaries in 3 days of DN and Watcher. What would you do then? Level an alt and max out in 3 more days?

Secondly, the 400% morale increase for bosses was excessive. Part of the reason DN got so much play those first couple weeks was because we could create our own challenges and run with fewer people for more reward. Getting 12 people for a 2-hour commitment is really a slog right now. It was great to have the option of a 6-man. But that's practically a 3-hour instance now, again, all for 3 First Age tokens and a few other hit-or-miss items.

This is absolutely not a 3 hour dungeon.

If 12-man rewarded players with ~3 emblems, and boss morale got cut back down to maybe 2.5 times their launch morale to encourage smaller groups (who could get 3-4 emblems) I think we could see DN become a common run again. Right now, you see maybe 1 or 2 PUGs a day on Anor, and even our large kin is only running 1-2 a week.

I only play a couple hours a day now. I PUG this daily when we don't have a scheduled kin run. I highly doubt I am magically online during the time when one or two PUGs are running this. I missed our three kin runs the other night and joined a random group with a mix of 3 kins and it was a blast talking about different strategies we used for the fights.

I get the whole "not everything should be easy/handed to you" argument, but these are the LS. We get 4 months with this content, and most people are here for nostalgia, not reusing 12-year-old strategy to lord gear over others. DN getting no love is a waste of a great instance. Does it really matter if we're able to grind out perfect passives on our LIs that we're going to trash later this summer anyway? The morale increase doesn't even make it harder--it just makes it longer. When we wanted a challenge before, we'd just 3-man, which was a ton of fun.

Again, I would argue that giving out more nims and making the dungeon easier would get more people to run it for like a week and then they would get bored and quit. The morale increase did indeed make some of the fights harder. Previously, the bosses morale was so low compared to our DPS that mechanics for fights were largely ignored or skipped because you would just burn them down. Now you have to be weary of a mechanic here or there because the boss will do X or Y because they have time now. If you want a challenge take a PUG in there without proper class balance. If your group is one that can 3 man this and get 10-12 nims a run 5-6 times a week they likely aren't the group that needs Nims anyway. It sounds like you want the loot grind to be over faster. What will you do then?

How about it, SSG? Get people in DN again?

I am certain SSG has data and can see how often and how many people are running DN on our servers.

[Dorothir]

But DN got left in the dust. A really good raid that should be entertaining us for 3 more months is practically a ghost town.

The issue isn't morale. The issue is that it isn't pug-friendly. Everyone outside of a kin knows that if you do DN in a pug, you aren't getting passed Flagit. Too many people fail to stop attacking, or spot the eye, and you end up wiping over and over. The raid basically ends there for pugs, and even if by some miracle you do overcome that boss, you then have the difficulty of the Blind One to contend with. The mechanics that give them their challenge for a kin makes them unplayable for pugs.

But don't get me wrong, I think they should have challenging mechanics. I just think they need to create 3 different versions:

- Tier 1: a more forgiving raid, for pugs, with average loot, basically just a chance to complete it outside of a kin
- Tier 2: as it is now, for average kins, with better loot
- Tier 3: harder than it is now, much better loot, more of it, and a reason for kins to try to push beyond standard techniques

[Laubgaenger]

- Tier 1: a more forgiving raid, for pugs, with average loot, basically just a chance to complete it outside of a kin

And without mechanic, and without bleed problems, without eye, without need of weapon damagetype, without everything except the colorfull area?

Sorry, but i think that is a raid.
We have Filikul and Watcher Missletactic for players that want the easiest way.
Here you see Hunters out of Buffrange and .... forgott the banner its only 30% more damage around 30sec-1min less fight.


We Pugged yesterday and use Discord, it works "well".
The Blind One has now the benefit, that there are 12 and you have to solve the Room Problem.

As we wrote direct and speak direct to the spear carry guys helped too.
That Damagedealer have again no Weapontype damage on the weapons was still again anoying.
The Beo healed, so no problem, but the Warden.... Oil would be an Option and Corruption+Boot (Interruption) Rota, but i did not think on that in that moment (think also that would be the job of that class to offer that :-)).

But together we get finished the Raid and had a good late evening (and morning)

Use voice and you need 5min to do the Damagetype quest at dolvenview. Take that time (while the impatient start to clear the Troll room)

[Dorothir]

And without mechanic, and without bleed problems, without eye, without need of weapon damagetype, without everything except the colorfull area?

No, as in more time for reactions, less damage inflicted (could just be single player insta-kill in terms of that fight), less frequency of mechanics, etc.

[Mirar4]

I really like most of the instance changes this last update. Vile Maw is slightly difficult again, I occasionally see a few people die in Filikul, and the 6-mans are a little less of a steamroll.

But DN got left in the dust. A really good raid that should be entertaining us for 3 more months is practically a ghost town.

How about it, SSG? Get people in DN again?

I agree. While DN is probably not "too hard", it's "too hard" in the aspect of "NO-ONE IS RUNNING IT".

I want to run DN, but there's no-one doing it. If they are, they hide somewhere private (and anonymous).

I feel like I missed the train when people did DN and now I'm out of content, even though it's there and taunting me.

[Becksy87]

I'm not sure how you are making DN last 2 or 3 hours tbh. We 6 manned it this morning in around 1 hour. With 12 its a 30-40minute raid. Yes this is with 6 or 12 people that know the fights. But if you don't know the fights this is where reading guides or working out your own way of doing this content actually makes the game fun. I remember spending hours in DN at it's release working out mechanics etc. If you make this any easier they might aswell just not bother.

If anyone wants any advice or help with tactics in DN please send me a tell on Becky on Anor.

[Eowene]

I agree. While DN is probably not "too hard", it's "too hard" in the aspect of "NO-ONE IS RUNNING IT".

I want to run DN, but there's no-one doing it. If they are, they hide somewhere private (and anonymous).

I feel like I missed the train when people did DN and now I'm out of content, even though it's there and taunting me.

This ^^ is the reason why i quit lotro. ~ Sorry this is 100% my last post, but i thought i would check the forums 1 last time b4 removing them from my favorites.

Your yelling that DN is too hard meanwhile people are 4manning it without a healer.... This ^^ is the reason why the legendary servers will fail. Simply learn the tactics that raids should have, or dont raid, Why ruin the game for those who want to raid? Who want to enjoy themselves??

Think DN is too hard?
Check out Ariama's channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy8...vS-3_jkOZptTMw
https://www.twitch.tv/schaumkus

He does DN/Watcher 4-6mans (with/without healer) depending on the content.. If you are struggeling, hes a good place to look for guides + advice. Very nice guy and very skilled.


But please, dont tell me its too hard and it needs nerfing when theres ppl 4manning it without a healer.

[Frisco]

I'm not sure how you are making DN last 2 or 3 hours tbh. We 6 manned it this morning in around 1 hour. With 12 its a 30-40minute raid. Yes this is with 6 or 12 people that know the fights. But if you don't know the fights this is where reading guides or working out your own way of doing this content actually makes the game fun. I remember spending hours in DN at it's release working out mechanics etc. If you make this any easier they might aswell just not bother.

If anyone wants any advice or help with tactics in DN please send me a tell on Becky on Anor.

I've run with a lot of your kin members, and they're either holding back in pugs, or you're exaggerating a whole lot. Sure, if you get a group of fully-geared people and have an ideal group makeup, yeah, under two hours.

I was in one of the first groups to figure out this instance in 2008--it's not that I need your help with tactics, I'm saying it's enough of a grind to discourage most people from running it. Great, your kin of hardcore raiders runs it a few times a day. I still call that a waste of good content when only a couple kins are running it and one guy does a couple semi-successful pugs a day.

DN isn't difficult. It's not going to be. But the life of the LS depends on people staying entertained--not a few people getting to feel elite because they take the extra time to complete 11-year-old content.

This ^^ is the reason why i quit lotro. ~ Sorry this is 100% my last post, but i thought i would check the forums 1 last time b4 removing them from my favorites.

Your yelling that DN is too hard meanwhile people are 4manning it without a healer.... This ^^ is the reason why the legendary servers will fail. Simply learn the tactics that raids should have, or dont raid, Why ruin the game for those who want to raid? Who want to enjoy themselves??

Think DN is too hard?
Check out Ariama's channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy8...vS-3_jkOZptTMw
https://www.twitch.tv/schaumkus

He does DN/Watcher 4-6mans (with/without healer) depending on the content.. If you are struggeling, hes a good place to look for guides + advice. Very nice guy and very skilled.


But please, dont tell me its too hard and it needs nerfing when theres ppl 4manning it without a healer.

Read again. The guy (and everyone else in this thread, including myself) has said DN is NOT hard. But now it's both not hard AND not really fun to run. It's not about learning tactics (did that enough in 2008 to have remembered them this time around), it's simple time/reward ratio. Added mob morale is a grind, not a substantial difficulty increase. Adding enough morale to make some mechanics relevant again was a good idea. Adding enough to make it not fun and not run was excessive, imo.

I truly don't understand the kneejerk reaction to both insist that DN isn't hard AND that 400% mob morale created a satisfying difficulty increase.

DN isn't hard now. It wasn't hard a month ago, either. The difference is lots of people were running it a month ago. SSG was getting a lot of bang for their proverbial buck.

[Frisco]

You are wrong about the loot/time ratio being abysmal. Turtle and Watcher do give 2 coins for 20 minutes of work, true. But then they are on a timer until the next day so they are giving you 2 coins per 24 hours and some legend xp items. DN requires about an hour of time and gives 2+ coins typically, a ton of legend xp items, blue loot worth wearing depending on class and gives you the currency for set pieces. Its not just the first age you are working towards by doing DN, its a bunch of armor pieces as well. You are strictly looking at these from a first age token sense. And if you are doing that then increasing the amount of tokens we can get daily makes even less sense for keeping people long term. You should be asking for longer lock timers. Imagine if we could 6 man this instance for you but 5 of us are fully geared. We could take somebody in here and get them 10-12 first age tokens in a single run and then do Turtle and Watcher for 2 more to get a minimum of 12 tokens a day? No class needs more than 3 first age weapons and 3 off hands. Under your new loot rules you would have all 6 legendaries in 3 days of DN and Watcher. What would you do then? Level an alt and max out in 3 more days?

I think you underestimate why people re-run content. If I get extra coins, I'll sell them. I just want some sort of reward commensurate with the time invested. So yeah, I'll roll an alt, or I'll sell some 1st Ages.

And you and I both know the set armour is mostly junk. Not sure I wear a single piece on any toon. Considered one set for cosmetics, maybe. And yeah, the drop helm is nice. Maybe pants for some. Couple pieces of jewelry. Most of the extra drops in there are vendor trash nowadays.

I only play a couple hours a day now. I PUG this daily when we don't have a scheduled kin run. I highly doubt I am magically online during the time when one or two PUGs are running this. I missed our three kin runs the other night and joined a random group with a mix of 3 kins and it was a blast talking about different strategies we used for the fights.

I think you may be on during prime time. There are only a fraction of the PUGs that were running prior to the update.

It sounds like you want the loot grind to be over faster. What will you do then?

That's not it at all, and I don't think I've even implied it. Hell, I've already got way more emblems than I need. And all the drops as well. I just want a reason for more people to run DN, including myself.

I am certain SSG has data and can see how often and how many people are running DN on our servers.

And I think you give them too much credit. I'm sure they have the capability to get lots of data. I don't think they have the time or manpower to read it all, however. That's why we have forums, player council, Palantir, etc. They use our input.

[Mirar4]

I only play a couple hours a day now. I PUG this daily when we don't have a scheduled kin run. I highly doubt I am magically online during the time when one or two PUGs are running this. I missed our three kin runs the other night and joined a random group with a mix of 3 kins and it was a blast talking about different strategies we used for the fights.

I must call BS on running something daily that has 3 resets a week.

[Frisco]

I must call BS on running something daily that has 3 resets a week.

We all have enough character slots to have a different character for every day of the week.

[OrcSmiter]

DN isn't particularly difficult for any static (kin) group, it's just difficult for pugs. I can't imagine they could make this more doable for pugs without nerfing Flagit to the point of facerolling. In other words this would be bringing it back to what it was like before the update - where morale was so low that any pug could blow through the bosses ignoring mechanics. I can't imagine anyone truly wants to go back to that.

As far as it taking 2-3 hours, I just don't get it. We typically take an hour to go through it in a group of six, the last couple times we 5-manned the first two or three bosses and still finished in about an hour. That's not to say every group out there is going to do the same, but a full raid of reasonably competent players should be taking no more than 40-60 minutes.

If you find it too hard to pug, which is pretty understandable since it seems like the majority do fail, join a kin that runs it successfully. The one I'm in isn't the only one on the server that does it, there are plenty to choose from. Or form a static group.

But regardless, please don't complain about it being too hard - it's not. It's not even particularly challenging content, and really, some of us would like to see the difficulty ramped up significantly.