Champion Feedback Thread

[Osglinthor]

I play main champion since the release and never had any problems before Mordor. All raids and instances was ok with champion.Rift,Helegrod,Dol Guldur,Throne etc etc, first time i hear the term "melee unfriendly" when SSG got the game and Mordors release.
At the very start of Anvils raid I gave battles at forum so they can change a bit the Anvil so we can fit in and after that happen from nowhere an update for burglars dps throw us out of the game again.So yes they turned me off and they made me to loose hope of the future of this game at least for my class.I am tired to give battles at forums every time they put some new content that melees are not useful.
So no Osq that anti melee mechanics thing can be change cause wasnt always like this to favor most the range it was balanced to favor everyone it can be like that again,they just have to put in mind that not only range play this game but melee too and also at last give some proper attention to this class.Burglars do more damage than champions and hunters its like you said that Bilbo was stronger than Legolas and Gimli for Christ sake

Yea it wasnt always like that,it wasnt always like that in other games too.But thats just how it is now.Just glance at pvp for 5 sec its much clearer there.20+ vs 20+ standing at distance like chickens picking of what they can with range while rest leach 99% of time.People simply started to want easy mode from range(or stealth when it comes to pvp) esp in last few years.Idk what other games you play but majority of them will always reward that kind of playstyle,from FPS to MOBAs to RPGs.Look at new instance for example.Made to favor range and despite that proper melee group will be faster than any range setup you make.Games went from high risk high reward to low risk high reward and high risk low reward.

Burg needs nerf and most players will agree with that.And dont expect any changes in near future to champ.I main both champ and ward and I have waited for +3 dot pulses to be added to warden trait line since mordor beta came out.That is over 2 years now.With out single response from devs.For such a simple change you cant even get dev to comment on it.So expect changes in maybe 1 year from now at best.If game happens to be alive then.

[pinlu]

What champs mainly need is a lower/no addiction on weaponswapping.
For this the outgoing dmg of the attacks need to become independent of the source (twohander or dualwield). Twohander should make more dmg and dualwield get a further attack to close the gap. For this twohander first need more dps again as the offhand has best would be twice as much. And onehanded main weapons the same.
After this we can balance the numbers to an independence.
This should be the main target and after that a few lessens problems as the initial bleed tick of the red wounds, crit buff value of bladestorm (no increase since 105).

well it should be 2handed for red , but i still dont get the point of this post. Swapping is differenece between bad dps and good in a raid if ur not in yellow. so why nerf it? Making skill not needed so the rest of us can roll our faces across keyboard for dps? Its atleast fun on the champ to be unique and have lots of animation cutting and weapon swappies. No lets make the class a rk 2.0 one lis and bland skills. Instead u get creativity with champ cutting animations. You can hit 100k dps on a dummy with good crits and solid rotation.

[Mukor]

well it should be 2handed for red , but i still dont get the point of this post. Swapping is differenece between bad dps and good in a raid if ur not in yellow. so why nerf it? Making skill not needed so the rest of us can roll our faces across keyboard for dps? Its atleast fun on the champ to be unique and have lots of animation cutting and weapon swappies. No lets make the class a rk 2.0 one lis and bland skills. Instead u get creativity with champ cutting animations. You can hit 100k dps on a dummy with good crits and solid rotation.

Not nerf the dps should be possible without swapping.
For this we need to equalize the skills for using dual wield or twohander.
There shouldn't be a reward for macro using.

[pinlu]

I dont use macros and i can swap my weapons, It actually takes skill and not braindead button bashing. The dmg should stay as it is, on two weapons.

[Arandour]

well it should be 2handed for red , but i still dont get the point of this post. Swapping is differenece between bad dps and good in a raid if ur not in yellow. so why nerf it? Making skill not needed so the rest of us can roll our faces across keyboard for dps? Its atleast fun on the champ to be unique and have lots of animation cutting and weapon swappies. No lets make the class a rk 2.0 one lis and bland skills. Instead u get creativity with champ cutting animations. You can hit 100k dps on a dummy with good crits and solid rotation.

Swapping Separates the good and mains from not so good and alts i feel you but it cause so much lag and already this game have lag issues even with out have to make swapping in every skill you do.Took me months to get use to it and master it,my dps went up about 10/15% with swapping but that lag...Anyway, if the majority dont have lag issues then no need for change.That what we definitely need is a boost at single target (or nerf the burglars),better self heals,be more independent while we debuf mitigations of the targets while on red line and finally more melee/aoe melee friendly instances.

[pinlu]

Swapping Separates the good and mains from not so good and alts i feel you but it cause so much lag and already this game have lag issues even with out have to make swapping in every skill you do.Took me months to get use to it and master it,my dps went up about 10/15% with swapping but that lag...Anyway, if the majority dont have lag issues then no need for change.That what we definitely need is a boost at single target (or nerf the burglars),better self heals,be more independent while we debuf mitigations of the targets while on red line and finally more melee/aoe melee friendly instances.

this is exactly my view, But the lag is the server issue for me. I dont have any FPS lag when swapping , but i know some do. What we definitely need is what you said, hitting nail on head. Boost at Single target and better heals in my view, also scalign up of the redline bleed as said before
That is the only unique thing about the champ, animation cutting and that its easy to play hard to master. i can powerlvl an rk put bad lis on it with anvil gear and dps easily, by rolling my face across keyboard

[Osglinthor]

this is exactly my view, But the lag is the server issue for me. I dont have any FPS lag when swapping , but i know some do. What we definitely need is what you said, hitting nail on head. Boost at Single target and better heals in my view, also scalign up of the redline bleed as said before
That is the only unique thing about the champ, animation cutting and that its easy to play hard to master. i can powerlvl an rk put bad lis on it with anvil gear and dps easily, by rolling my face across keyboard

Champ doesnt need DPS buff.Its already one of best ST DPS in games with only broken burg being better.Rest are quite even with RK being lowest but with most utility and easiest to play.
If champ gets DPS buff it becomes OP with proper group.Mitigation debuffs need to get normalazied and difference between crit and non crits need to be reduced.That is all they need to do.
And do adress previous post about macros.Noone who swaps weapon uses them.
As for selfheals,personaly not a fan of that in DPS lines.Would nerf all forms of survivability on DPS specs,with giving each class something like killing spree to make questing less tedious.
And maybe 1 emergency skill with 3-5 min cd.

https://imgur.com/a/geNxXDP this pic explains everything.Now you could get simiral results for phsycal mit but would require 3 more classes compared to ez mode LM and RK debuffs.
And just to remind one would never reach feeble(light)

[Aeviternus]

And do adress previous post about macros.Noone who swaps weapon uses them.

That's not actually true, most people I know who swap weapons in combat use macros for it. That doesn't mean it's a requirement though. I don't use them, personally, either. Having said that, I definitely think that it shouldn't be necessary to swap weapons dozens of times per minute in order to optimise one's DPS as a champion (or any other class). Hence, I do think damage should be normalised across all weapon types, as should skill animations. Otherwise, this same issue will always exist. And it creates a large gap between those who can, and those who can't.

Saying "Oh it requires skill so why would you remove it" makes no sense when it can easily be automated by a program.

And, on a final note, the only thing champions really need is for Deep Strikes to stop getting refreshed on every crit. So long as this is the case, the trait is almost entirely worthless for red line, because you will never get a single tick out of it on a ST fight.

[Osglinthor]

That's not actually true, most people I know who swap weapons in combat use macros for it. That doesn't mean it's a requirement though. I don't use them, personally, either. Having said that, I definitely think that it shouldn't be necessary to swap weapons dozens of times per minute in order to optimise one's DPS as a champion (or any other class). Hence, I do think damage should be normalised across all weapon types, as should skill animations. Otherwise, this same issue will always exist. And it creates a large gap between those who can, and those who can't.

Saying "Oh it requires skill so why would you remove it" makes no sense when it can easily be automated by a program.

And, on a final note, the only thing champions really need is for Deep Strikes to stop getting refreshed on every crit. So long as this is the case, the trait is almost entirely worthless for red line, because you will never get a single tick out of it on a ST fight.

Well I cant speak for other classes,but every champ I know who swaps weapons dont use macros including myself.So maybe some macro and some dont.I do agree skill damage should be normalaised between dual wield and 2 handed.As well as difference between crits and non crits and mitigation debuffs.After that its easy to balance numbers out.

[Ballie]

Maybe some add-ons are being promoted to help the less adept swappers and are being referred to as macros when they involve a number of clicks rather than running a script. Literally you are clicking the mouse and the icon under it changes each time to achieve the result.

I'm not a fan, but then not a dps fiend either. Vastin mentioned dual wield was a whole different set of skills to double hander so that has to be having an impact.

[Arandour]

Dps balance of classes its a bit unfair at the moment dont you think?I guess after Wardens update its time to give some attention to Champions too.
We had our update together Champions and Wardens almost two years ago, so after the changes you did for them recently it would be fair to give some attention to Champions too with couple hot fixes cause we are far behind atm.
We need at least, a buff for Red line so we can be competitive for new end game content at high tiers, cause right now we are far behind in single target damage from the other dps classes especially from Wardens and Burglars and also a penetrating mitigation's buff for Red line like that we have at yellow line so we dont depend anymore from all those classes together and perfect group setups to mitigate our targets.Some attention to our survival skills and proper upscale to our supporting skills would be nice too.

[Tullkas]

Champs need a major upgrade in redline BEFORE raid drops . I hate quick fixes but at this point I think most champs will take what they can get. Double base damage across the board for red line skills, a mitagation bypass in red and maybe scale up Rend from the dark ages to % based. And how about a Raid set bonus that actually will increase damage.

[Zariliv92]

Champs need a major upgrade in redline BEFORE raid drops . I hate quick fixes but at this point I think most champs will take what they can get. Double base damage across the board for red line skills, a mitagation bypass in red and maybe scale up Rend from the dark ages to % based. And how about a Raid set bonus that actually will increase damage.

or better: give champions a skill that reduces moral from enemy by 100%....

[Arandour]

or better, give champions a skills that reduces moral from enemy by 100%....

lol Zar

[Silverrider]

After some more testing today, I'd like to give more specific feedback for the changes done to champ red line. As for yellow, can't really add anything useful beyond what I already said, so focussing on red line here.



I really like the direction this is headed. Champ benefits a lot from support, so this looks a lot better in regards to being able to raid. I parse between 95k and 105k pretty consistent right now, with an elven champ that is (so no two-handed weapon bonus damage sadly ... any chance for a change here? ) Another 5k or so in dps would, in my opinion, make it perfect. Not entirely enough as it stands right now, but not much more needed.



Same parse as before, combat time is off though because deep strikes still being up on the dummy has kept me in combat. Looking at damage per skill, I'd reinforce that Ferocious Strikes needs a damage bump. Remorseless Strikes being number 1 skill on elven champ is something I'm used to right now, maybe some human/high elven champ wants to chime in and give feedback on that skill, but still I feel like FS should be higher than Brutal Strikes at least. Maybe bumb FS by ~20% and nerf BS by ~5-8% to compensate.


Regarding Merciful Strike, can't go off dummy parses for that, so I'll use tooltips instead. I throw in MS instead of some RS uses in my rotation mostly, as soon as my target is low enough on morale to do so, so I'll compare these two (both tooltips at 5 fervour).

By tooltip, RS does 50k to 74k damage per usage, MS is below that at 41k to 61k damage. I'd change MS to be just minimally higher than RS, because of it being guaranteed to crit. MS needs about 21.5% more damage to deal the same damage as RS, and a damage increase on MS of about 25% would bring it to, on average 64k damage (compared to RS at 62k). So I'd recommend buffing MS damage by ~20-25% to bring it up to RS damage.

Going off the parse I used above, bumping Ferocious Strikes by 20% and nerfing Brutal Strikes by 8% in compensation would bring champ dps up to ~104k, so gaining about 3k dps. Taking Merciful Strike into account, even though I cannot parse it properly, should then bring champ into a position where it's just fine for raid.

Adding my stats and weapons I did the parse with below, just in case.

[Aeviternus]

I really like the direction this is headed. Champ benefits a lot from support, so this looks a lot better in regards to being able to raid. I parse between 95k and 105k pretty consistent right now, with an elven champ that is (so no two-handed weapon bonus damage sadly ... any chance for a change here? ) Another 5k or so in dps would, in my opinion, make it perfect. Not entirely enough as it stands right now, but not much more needed.

Actually, you could quite comfortably argue that being at 110k (36% behind burglars, assuming 150k) isn't "perfect". Rather, it's far from perfect. I'd be more hesitant to use such a phrase, if I were you.

Same parse as before, combat time is off though because deep strikes still being up on the dummy has kept me in combat. Looking at damage per skill, I'd reinforce that Ferocious Strikes needs a damage bump. Remorseless Strikes being number 1 skill on elven champ is something I'm used to right now, maybe some human/high elven champ wants to chime in and give feedback on that skill, but still I feel like FS should be higher than Brutal Strikes at least. Maybe bumb FS by ~20% and nerf BS by ~5-8% to compensate.

I'm aware that champions possess a trait called "Masochism", but suggesting that Brutal Strikes has to be nerfed is, frankly, utterly silly. There is absolutely no need for this. Even with what you're suggesting, champions will be miles behind burglars and wardens, while also being miles behind both in terms of survivability. If anything, champions should deal more DPS than burglars, to compensate for the lack of defensives that burglars have (Provoke, KO, TnG).

[Chris91]

Actually, you could quite comfortably argue that being at 110k (36% behind burglars, assuming 150k) isn't "perfect". Rather, it's far from perfect. I'd be more hesitant to use such a phrase, if I were you.



I'm aware that champions possess a trait called "Masochism", but suggesting that Brutal Strikes has to be nerfed is, frankly, utterly silly. There is absolutely no need for this. Even with what you're suggesting, champions will be miles behind burglars and wardens, while also being miles behind both in terms of survivability. If anything, champions should deal more DPS than burglars, to compensate for the lack of defensives that burglars have (Provoke, KO, TnG).

I don't think ANY class should be as strong as Burglars are right now (even on Beta)

Considering that Burglars and Champions gain more support in groups both obviously should be lower than Wardens at the dummy (so the endresult with support is the same). So when a Warden does ~135-140k the target for Champion and Burglar should be 110-125k solo because raid support will close the rest of that gap. As you can see Burglar is still way overtuned

[Silverrider]

Actually, you could quite comfortably argue that being at 110k (36% behind burglars, assuming 150k) isn't "perfect". Rather, it's far from perfect. I'd be more hesitant to use such a phrase, if I were you.



I'm aware that champions possess a trait called "Masochism", but suggesting that Brutal Strikes has to be nerfed is, frankly, utterly silly. There is absolutely no need for this. Even with what you're suggesting, champions will be miles behind burglars and wardens, while also being miles behind both in terms of survivability. If anything, champions should deal more DPS than burglars, to compensate for the lack of defensives that burglars have (Provoke, KO, TnG).

Yeah, you aren't me though, and telling me what I can and can't think/suggest is kinda...rude. I can see why what I'm suggesting does not fit into the "champ needs to be strongest/second strongest dps in game" idea. I'm not aiming for burglar dps though, that class needs a nerf itself, and I'm not using it as reference for anything, honestly. I'm using warden (a class that sits at ~50% light damage type and ~50% beleriand or whatever you're using) as a reference here, and if champ were to be at the same dps as warden on dummies, it would be too strong in raid, and exactly that is what I'm aiming at with my feedback. Champ has to be slightly lower than warden on dummy for raid settings to be balanced, because wardens get less support than champs (namely...light damage). With wardens being at about 140k, champ being at 110-115k seems perfekt for me, sorry not sorry.

I'm not suggesting nerfing Brutal Strikes the way you seem to understand it. I'm suggesting to take some damage from Brutal Strikes and give it to the more expensive, higher cooldown, Ferocious Strikes. That is NOT a nerf to champ, merely a shift in skill damage distribution. Why you feel the need to call me masochistic because of a damage shift/buff suggestion is beyond me.

I didn't even touch on the subject of survivability. What we're getting here is a bandaid fix to a larger problem, we won't be getting a class rework before raid I'm afraid, so I'm giving feedback based on the scope of changes. Of course I'd like some more survivability. Of course I'd like Bracing Attack to be percentage-based. They'd need to rework a couple of skills for this to happen, though, and I'd rather at least have decent damage and be able to raid than wait for a larger rework and miss out on the raid.

[Gunhard]

Actually, you could quite comfortably argue that being at 110k (36% behind burglars, assuming 150k) isn't "perfect". Rather, it's far from perfect. I'd be more hesitant to use such a phrase, if I were you.

I'm aware that champions possess a trait called "Masochism", but suggesting that Brutal Strikes has to be nerfed is, frankly, utterly silly. There is absolutely no need for this. Even with what you're suggesting, champions will be miles behind burglars and wardens, while also being miles behind both in terms of survivability. If anything, champions should deal more DPS than burglars, to compensate for the lack of defensives that burglars have (Provoke, KO, TnG).

I agree. Burg has -%crit defence on solo parses and mark with 100% uptime, when champ has +%incoming damage from DB, so its the only -%crit defence left mostly, from all other group buffs they benefits somewhat similar. Burg also has 2 crit legacies for main hard hitters. Thats why burg still will be ?1 st melee dps in raid if current br state will go live.

Brutal strikes deal not that much bigger damage with 2h than traited raging blades when dw in red, so instead of nerfing it i would buff it more, like all other skills for 5-10% at least.

[Gunhard]

I don't think ANY class should be as strong as Burglars are right now (even on Beta)

Considering that Burglars and Champions gain more support in groups both obviously should be lower than Wardens at the dummy (so the endresult with support is the same). So when a Warden does ~135-140k the target for Champion and Burglar should be 110-125k solo because raid support will close the rest of that gap. As you can see Burglar is still way overtuned

But champs still not on that point, and this is with constant weapon swapping, so some more buffs would be nice.

I'm not suggesting nerfing Brutal Strikes the way you seem to understand it. I'm suggesting to take some damage from Brutal Strikes and give it to the more expensive, higher cooldown, Ferocious Strikes.

Damage distribution between skills is fine on champ imo, you use BS more often so its fine that its higher on that list. Buffing all skills across the board looks like simple fix with less efforts. Its not like burg with DES and FB.

I didn't even touch on the subject of survivability. What we're getting here is a bandaid fix to a larger problem, we won't be getting a class rework before raid I'm afraid, so I'm giving feedback based on the scope of changes. Of course I'd like some more survivability. Of course I'd like Bracing Attack to be percentage-based. They'd need to rework a couple of skills for this to happen, though, and I'd rather at least have decent damage and be able to raid than wait for a larger rework and miss out on the raid.

I dont expect class rework anytime soon as well. On high tiers all die superfast if tank lose aggro, bracing attack wont change anything here i think, who needs survivability? At least we can get damage buff to be competitive in our main role.

[MarkusOfGondor]

Increase Champion damage please ^_^ Thanks for reading, Markusofgondor

[Aeviternus]

Yeah, you aren't me though, and telling me what I can and can't think/suggest is kinda...rude. I can see why what I'm suggesting does not fit into the "champ needs to be strongest/second strongest dps in game" idea.

Oh, it would be, but I didn't do that, I merely suggested that others might not be so eager to draw the conclusions that you did.

I'm not aiming for burglar dps though, that class needs a nerf itself, and I'm not using it as reference for anything, honestly. I'm using warden (a class that sits at ~50% light damage type and ~50% beleriand or whatever you're using) as a reference here, and if champ were to be at the same dps as warden on dummies, it would be too strong in raid, and exactly that is what I'm aiming at with my feedback. Champ has to be slightly lower than warden on dummy for raid settings to be balanced, because wardens get less support than champs (namely...light damage). With wardens being at about 140k, champ being at 110-115k seems perfekt for me, sorry not sorry.

Maybe you're not aiming for Burglar DPS, but you should be, because it's clear that the devs are aware that Burglars are too strong, and yet they decided to only implement a 10% nerf to DES and FB. Regardless of what your personal target DPS is, the realistic target DPS is the current DPS of Burglars. That's not going to go down from here. Why would they not have nerfed it more with this BR build, if they were already aware that it's far too strong?
Furthermore, an additional 5k DPS (which is what you called "perfect") would put Wardens 27% ahead of you. If that difference is "small" to you, then I'm not sure what to say. I think the rest of us use different definitions.

I'm not suggesting nerfing Brutal Strikes the way you seem to understand it. I'm suggesting to take some damage from Brutal Strikes and give it to the more expensive, higher cooldown, Ferocious Strikes. That is NOT a nerf to champ, merely a shift in skill damage distribution. Why you feel the need to call me masochistic because of a damage shift/buff suggestion is beyond me.

I'm perfectly aware of what you're suggesting, and a buff to Ferocious Strikes would be perfectly justified without nerfing Brutal Strikes to compensate. It is masochistic to suggest unnecessary nerfs when you're already behind.

PS. Raid debuffs will easily bring a target's mitigation near 0%, so suggesting that Wardens are at a major disadvantage in that settings hardly seem accurate.

[Gunhard]

Maybe you're not aiming for Burglar DPS, but you should be, because it's clear that the devs are aware that Burglars are too strong, and yet they decided to only implement a 10% nerf to DES and FB. Regardless of what your personal target DPS is, the realistic target DPS is the current DPS of Burglars. That's not going to go down from here. Why would they not have nerfed it more with this BR build, if they were already aware that it's far too strong?

Its beta, still work in progress. I guess they didnt nerf burgs more to not put them in position before burg's patch. With all those posts about burgs dps in preview 2 we can expect further nerf for burgs in next preview.

[Alcatrazz]

I really like the direction this is headed. Champ benefits a lot from support, so this looks a lot better in regards to being able to raid. I parse between 95k and 105k pretty consistent right now, with an elven champ that is (so no two-handed weapon bonus damage sadly ... any chance for a change here? ) Another 5k or so in dps would, in my opinion, make it perfect. Not entirely enough as it stands right now, but not much more needed.

Considering the stats you have postet, 105k dps is by far not close enough to get in the right direction in my opinion.

There are some screens of dps parses from warden, rk and burgs (although the last two got some nerfs) doing 130k+ dps with 550k mastery/450k crit while you had 750k/630k which also makes a significant difference.

[cat301]

After some more testing today, I'd like to give more specific feedback for the changes done to champ red line. As for yellow, can't really add anything useful beyond what I already said, so focussing on red line here.



I really like the direction this is headed. Champ benefits a lot from support, so this looks a lot better in regards to being able to raid. I parse between 95k and 105k pretty consistent right now, with an elven champ that is (so no two-handed weapon bonus damage sadly ... any chance for a change here? ) Another 5k or so in dps would, in my opinion, make it perfect. Not entirely enough as it stands right now, but not much more needed.



Same parse as before, combat time is off though because deep strikes still being up on the dummy has kept me in combat. Looking at damage per skill, I'd reinforce that Ferocious Strikes needs a damage bump. Remorseless Strikes being number 1 skill on elven champ is something I'm used to right now, maybe some human/high elven champ wants to chime in and give feedback on that skill, but still I feel like FS should be higher than Brutal Strikes at least. Maybe bumb FS by ~20% and nerf BS by ~5-8% to compensate.


Regarding Merciful Strike, can't go off dummy parses for that, so I'll use tooltips instead. I throw in MS instead of some RS uses in my rotation mostly, as soon as my target is low enough on morale to do so, so I'll compare these two (both tooltips at 5 fervour).

By tooltip, RS does 50k to 74k damage per usage, MS is below that at 41k to 61k damage. I'd change MS to be just minimally higher than RS, because of it being guaranteed to crit. MS needs about 21.5% more damage to deal the same damage as RS, and a damage increase on MS of about 25% would bring it to, on average 64k damage (compared to RS at 62k). So I'd recommend buffing MS damage by ~20-25% to bring it up to RS damage.

Going off the parse I used above, bumping Ferocious Strikes by 20% and nerfing Brutal Strikes by 8% in compensation would bring champ dps up to ~104k, so gaining about 3k dps. Taking Merciful Strike into account, even though I cannot parse it properly, should then bring champ into a position where it's just fine for raid.

Adding my stats and weapons I did the parse with below, just in case.

Can you give a screenshot of the gear you are using ? Thanks