The Villains of LOTRO: Who will be the next ‘big-bad’? (Spoilers)

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Since Mordor, we’ve been introduced, through the Black Book, to a range of arch-enemies for us to face.

Each Volume of the epic has had a number of these, but with one main villain:

- Vol 1: some early appearances by the Nazgul and their agents, like Ivar and Skorgrim (the Nazgul appear throughout Vols 1-4), but our main foe was Angmar, in the guise of Mordirith (with some side-helpings of Mordrambor and Amarthiel)

- Vol 2: Mazog and Gorothul were our two main antagonists here

- Vol 3: Although not part of every single book, Saruman was clearly the big villain here.

- Vol 4: Balakhor the Scourge represents the Corsair threat in the early books, but he is dealt with quickly. Gothmog (and Sauron, I suppose!) are the main antagonists here, although Gothmog escapes retribution after Pelennor.

- The Black Book: here’s when stuff starts to get complicated. There’s two real story chains here:
A) The Masters of Mordor
B) The Northern Kingdoms

In the first, Dulgabeth, Lhaereth, Ugrukhor and Borangos are all major threats, with Lhaereth triumphing by the end of the Mordor expansion, defeating Dulgabeth and swearing vengeance on Gothmog. When we return to Mordor after our detour northwards, Gothmog is defeated by the player, Ugrukhor is killed by Gothmog, Lhaereth is last seen fleeing from Thuringwaith.

In the north, we follow the trail of Karazgar and come up against Vethug and Hrimil. By the end of this story, Vethug is killed, Hrimil is sealed in the Anvil and Karazgar is MIA, last seen in the Vales.

- The Legacy of Durin: In this new epic, we’re introduced for the first time to Gorgar the Ruthless, brother of Mazog.

In addition to this, through the Secret Stones quest, we have also been introduced to Throkar, who is some kind of might Nameless being.


With that in mind, I have been pondering who the ‘big-bads’ will be going forward.

- The obvious one in the dwarf storyline is Gorgar, Lord of Gundabad. It would be cool to see him as rather more mighty than the rather cowardly Mazog.
- In Mordor, Lhaereth and Borangos are still at large. Lhaereth may seek to move southwards following her defeat at Minas Morgul and head to Nurn to expand her power. From the Reclamation quests, we know that the Orc ‘Matron’ can be found there, so maybe an alliance to threaten the Free Peoples May spawn from there.
- Borangos’s obsession with Orodruin bodes ill. Borangos seems like a mighty foe, but perhaps whatever is under Orodruin is even more powerful!
- Saruman is obviously also still at large, and I’m sure we’ll return to his story at some point!
- Thraknul is another potential opponent. Did the Iron Garrison fall because of him? The shaking of the earth experienced across Middle Earth - is he to blame? Perhaps the Shadowed King isn’t his only servant, but also Gwathnor and the Mistress?
- Karazgar is still at large - and so is Ayorzen, with his mask!

I’m excited to see where these stories take us, and I’m curious as to whether there will be any villains with the longevity of Mordirith/Gothmog, or any that male such an impact upon our characters. I think I’m most intrigued by Thraknul and Gorgar, but I’m willing to be persuaded that the others are still a powerful and significant threat too!

[Erionor]

- The obvious one in the dwarf storyline is Gorgar, Lord of Gundabad. It would be cool to see him as rather more mighty than the rather cowardly Mazog.
- In Mordor, Lhaereth and Borangos are still at large. Lhaereth may seek to move southwards following her defeat at Minas Morgul and head to Nurn to expand her power. From the Reclamation quests, we know that the Orc ‘Matron’ can be found there, so maybe an alliance to threaten the Free Peoples May spawn from there.
- Borangos’s obsession with Orodruin bodes ill. Borangos seems like a mighty foe, but perhaps whatever is under Orodruin is even more powerful!
- Saruman is obviously also still at large, and I’m sure we’ll return to his story at some point!
- Thraknul is another potential opponent. Did the Iron Garrison fall because of him? The shaking of the earth experienced across Middle Earth - is he to blame? Perhaps the Shadowed King isn’t his only servant, but also Gwathnor and the Mistress?
- Karazgar is still at large - and so is Ayorzen, with his mask!

I’m excited to see where these stories take us, and I’m curious as to whether there will be any villains with the longevity of Mordirith/Gothmog, or any that male such an impact upon our characters. I think I’m most intrigued by Thraknul and Gorgar, but I’m willing to be persuaded that the others are still a powerful and significant threat too!

I would be interested to see any of these featured, except for Lhaereth. PLEASE no more merrevail, I am totally sick of them. I have enjoyed literally every other part of MM, but the quests where they are involved I have gritted my teeth and got through just because I have to for the deeds. They are so cheap as enemies and don’t fit into Middle Earth. Please use your imagination SSG and stick to the more authentic enemies of Middle Earth, like, well, more or less anything else in the post above. Whoever and whatever the “big bads” are in future, make them “Tolkieny” - I want to feel like I am part of Tolkien’s world, that’s why I play this game.

[YamydeAragon]

...
- Saruman is obviously also still at large, and I’m sure we’ll return to his story at some point!...

Saruman, look, your staff is broken! Yah, i think he just lost the last bit of his power at Isengard tower. All he can still do now, is bully the lil hobbitses at Shire.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I would be interested to see any of these featured, except for Lhaereth. PLEASE no more merrevail, I am totally sick of them. I have enjoyed literally every other part of MM, but the quests where they are involved I have gritted my teeth and got through just because I have to for the deeds. They are so cheap as enemies and don’t fit into Middle Earth. Please use your imagination SSG and stick to the more authentic enemies of Middle Earth, like, well, more or less anything else in the post above. Whoever and whatever the “big bads” are in future, make them “Tolkieny” - I want to feel like I am part of Tolkien’s world, that’s why I play this game.

I don’t mind Lhaereth, but I think she has been poorly served by the narrative. She’s clearly a pretty imposing foe and leaves Amon Thanc as the dominant force in Mordor, but is rather easily defeated by us in Seregost. She then assaults Minas Morgul, but despite having sworn vengeance upon Gothmog, she’s nowhere to be seen (despite her merrevail throughout the city). She shows up in Thuringwaith, but is scared off by the Gaunt Lady (who we then easily defeat). To make her a properly imposing foe, we need to lose against her (or suffer some losses to her). My hope is that Nurn can revive the character as a proper foe.

I also remembered that I’d forgotten about one potential threat - the events from which the Zhelruka and the people of Rhovanion are fleeing from. This seems to be pretty seismic, and I wondered if it was connected to the upheaval in Moria, or the eruption of Orodruin - or both, with Thraknul behind it all!

I also wondered who people’s favourite ‘big bad’ in LOTRO has been so far - I’d probably opt for Mordrambor (he had several pretty cool moments), with an honourable mention to Gorothul during the quest when the Hidden Company attempt to parley with him, and Gothmog for his reappearance in Osgiliath which was pretty awesome.

[Erionor]

I don’t mind Lhaereth, but I think she has been poorly served by the narrative. She’s clearly a pretty imposing foe and leaves Amon Thanc as the dominant force in Mordor, but is rather easily defeated by us in Seregost. She then assaults Minas Morgul, but despite having sworn vengeance upon Gothmog, she’s nowhere to be seen (despite her merrevail throughout the city). She shows up in Thuringwaith, but is scared off by the Gaunt Lady (who we then easily defeat). To make her a properly imposing foe, we need to lose against her (or suffer some losses to her). My hope is that Nurn can revive the character as a proper foe.

I also remembered that I’d forgotten about one potential threat - the events from which the Zhelruka and the people of Rhovanion are fleeing from. This seems to be pretty seismic, and I wondered if it was connected to the upheaval in Moria, or the eruption of Orodruin - or both, with Thraknul behind it all!

I also wondered who people’s favourite ‘big bad’ in LOTRO has been so far - I’d probably opt for Mordrambor (he had several pretty cool moments), with an honourable mention to Gorothul during the quest when the Hidden Company attempt to parley with him, and Gothmog for his reappearance in Osgiliath which was pretty awesome.

It’s not the storyline around Lhaereth that I mind, it’s the whole concept of the merrevail that I don’t like. I just don’t believe them in the setting of Middle Earth (yes I know people will say Thuringwethil but I just think they are cheap in design and not in keeping with Tolkien’s style at all).

My favourite villain? Obviously, encountering the actual Tolkien characters like Saruman, the Watcher and Shelob has been awesome. However I really loved the whole Mordirith/Gothmog storyline. It was so involved, so multi-faceted and so entwined with the lore (making him Earnur - a stroke of genius), as well as providing the Moriarty to our Holmes.

[Phantion]

I actually think that Gothmog's natural replacement as the "Big Bad" IS Karazgar. SPOILERS below obviously:





I say this because the Big Bad is the antagonist that "makes it personal" against the player-character. By far, Karazgar "made it personal" in the whole hunt for him, all that transpired in Strongholds of the North, Ered Mithrim, and in the Vales of Anduin, and the way the "Black Book" "left it off" really struck me as a teaser for what's coming next. I doubt his tale has ended; he's going after his mask, Black Book or no Black Book, and he'll be angry at the player for giving the Black Book that contains nothing of use to him if making that choice, and he'll be otherwise angry at the player for refusing to give him the Black Book if the player made that decision.


No other villains, other than Mordirith / Gothmog and Karazgar, have "made it personal" in that way. There were brief moments with Saruman and Gorothul that could've gone that way, along with Mordrambor and Amarthiel, but because they faded-out from the story fairly quickly (Saruman is thwarted after Helm's Deep but for the Scouring; Mordrambor and Amarthiel didn't last beyond Volume 1; Gorothul was taken-out in a 6-man and Mazog in a skirm), they didn't really get the "staying power" that Gothmog ultimately had across 4 volumes and with Karazgar surviving the Black Book.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I actually think that Gothmog's natural replacement as the "Big Bad" IS Karazgar. SPOILERS below obviously:





I say this because the Big Bad is the antagonist that "makes it personal" against the player-character. By far, Karazgar "made it personal" in the whole hunt for him, all that transpired in Strongholds of the North, Ered Mithrim, and in the Vales of Anduin, and the way the "Black Book" "left it off" really struck me as a teaser for what's coming next. I doubt his tale has ended; he's going after his mask, Black Book or no Black Book, and he'll be angry at the player for giving the Black Book that contains nothing of use to him if making that choice, and he'll be otherwise angry at the player for refusing to give him the Black Book if the player made that decision.


No other villains, other than Mordirith / Gothmog and Karazgar, have "made it personal" in that way. There were brief moments with Saruman and Gorothul that could've gone that way, along with Mordrambor and Amarthiel, but because they faded-out from the story fairly quickly (Saruman is thwarted after Helm's Deep but for the Scouring; Mordrambor and Amarthiel didn't last beyond Volume 1; Gorothul was taken-out in a 6-man and Mazog in a skirm), they didn't really get the "staying power" that Gothmog ultimately had across 4 volumes and with Karazgar surviving the Black Book.

I take your point - Gothmog definitely made a significant impression due to the 'personal' element and the fact that he stuck around for a while. However, with Karazgar, unlike he experiences some kind of power up as a villain, it feels like he is a bit of a busted flush, following his loss of his mask and the encounter with Gandalf. I definitely felt he was a threat in the Northern Strongholds and in the lead up to the Anvil, but since then I feel that he's slipped considerably in the villain rankings. I'd love to see him return in a big way at some point though!

However, in terms of making it personal, I definitely think that some other foes have things in their favour. Mordrambor spends a lot of time interacting with the player during his imprisonment, and I was more eager to defeat him than Mordirith thanks to his murder of the Rangers and of Laerdan, although given his subservience, he maybe wasn't a 'big bad'. While Mazog went down in a skirmish and Gorothul in a 6-man, I don't think that particularly detracts from their stories (although there's perhaps less of a personal connection there).

As for Vol 3, I suppose that while Saruman was the major antagonist, most of our interactions were with his servants - in particular, Lheu Brenin who was definitely a personal antagonist for our characters, and definitely left an impression (although his end was rather sadly anticlimactic).

In order to make a potent villain, I think they need the following things:
- They need to stick around in the story for a while (Balakhor, for example, didn't manage this and so didn't have a sufficient impact)
- They need to kill someone meaningful to the characters or need to be properly villainous (It is all very well saying that they are big meanies, but unless they show this, how impactful are they really? Lheu Brenin's massacre of the Grey Company is a particularly potent example)
- They need to be powerful and they need to inflict defeats upon us (Lhaereth and Karazgar, despite initial promise, don't really manage to do this)

I'm hoping that Gorgar, as the apparent main villain for the next section of the 'epic' has these traits (I liked his brother, Mazog, but his cowardice and deference to Dol Guldur wasn't particularly intimidating!) - although it does make me fear for some of our favourite dwarves who might end up in the firing line!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

It’s not the storyline around Lhaereth that I mind, it’s the whole concept of the merrevail that I don’t like. I just don’t believe them in the setting of Middle Earth (yes I know people will say Thuringwethil but I just think they are cheap in design and not in keeping with Tolkien’s style at all).

My favourite villain? Obviously, encountering the actual Tolkien characters like Saruman, the Watcher and Shelob has been awesome. However I really loved the whole Mordirith/Gothmog storyline. It was so involved, so multi-faceted and so entwined with the lore (making him Earnur - a stroke of genius), as well as providing the Moriarty to our Holmes.

Fair point about the merrevail - I don't mind them as much, but I can see how irritating they must be if they don't feel believable to you.

Yeah, making Mordirith/Gothmog into Earnur, and the way that his story was so beautifully woven into the established lore (as well as all the fleshing out of his character that we got at the end of the Black Book) really was a master stroke.

[Valakircka]

Since Mordor, we’ve been introduced, through the Black Book, to a range of arch-enemies for us to face.

Each Volume of the epic has had a number of these, but with one main villain:

- Vol 1: some early appearances by the Nazgul and their agents, like Ivar and Skorgrim (the Nazgul appear throughout Vols 1-4), but our main foe was Angmar, in the guise of Mordirith (with some side-helpings of Mordrambor and Amarthiel)

- Vol 2: Mazog and Gorothul were our two main antagonists here

- Vol 3: Although not part of every single book, Saruman was clearly the big villain here.

- Vol 4: Balakhor the Scourge represents the Corsair threat in the early books, but he is dealt with quickly. Gothmog (and Sauron, I suppose!) are the main antagonists here, although Gothmog escapes retribution after Pelennor.

- The Black Book: here’s when stuff starts to get complicated. There’s two real story chains here:
A) The Masters of Mordor
B) The Northern Kingdoms

In the first, Dulgabeth, Lhaereth, Ugrukhor and Borangos are all major threats, with Lhaereth triumphing by the end of the Mordor expansion, defeating Dulgabeth and swearing vengeance on Gothmog. When we return to Mordor after our detour northwards, Gothmog is defeated by the player, Ugrukhor is killed by Gothmog, Lhaereth is last seen fleeing from Thuringwaith.

In the north, we follow the trail of Karazgar and come up against Vethug and Hrimil. By the end of this story, Vethug is killed, Hrimil is sealed in the Anvil and Karazgar is MIA, last seen in the Vales.

- The Legacy of Durin: In this new epic, we’re introduced for the first time to Gorgar the Ruthless, brother of Mazog.

In addition to this, through the Secret Stones quest, we have also been introduced to Throkar, who is some kind of might Nameless being.


With that in mind, I have been pondering who the ‘big-bads’ will be going forward.

- The obvious one in the dwarf storyline is Gorgar, Lord of Gundabad. It would be cool to see him as rather more mighty than the rather cowardly Mazog.
- In Mordor, Lhaereth and Borangos are still at large. Lhaereth may seek to move southwards following her defeat at Minas Morgul and head to Nurn to expand her power. From the Reclamation quests, we know that the Orc ‘Matron’ can be found there, so maybe an alliance to threaten the Free Peoples May spawn from there.
- Borangos’s obsession with Orodruin bodes ill. Borangos seems like a mighty foe, but perhaps whatever is under Orodruin is even more powerful!
- Saruman is obviously also still at large, and I’m sure we’ll return to his story at some point!
- Thraknul is another potential opponent. Did the Iron Garrison fall because of him? The shaking of the earth experienced across Middle Earth - is he to blame? Perhaps the Shadowed King isn’t his only servant, but also Gwathnor and the Mistress?
- Karazgar is still at large - and so is Ayorzen, with his mask!

I’m excited to see where these stories take us, and I’m curious as to whether there will be any villains with the longevity of Mordirith/Gothmog, or any that male such an impact upon our characters. I think I’m most intrigued by Thraknul and Gorgar, but I’m willing to be persuaded that the others are still a powerful and significant threat too!

i really believe that its quite obvius our next opponents and the road we r taking in the future expansion and that is from the hints we have got since mordor expancion and through allegiance quests too!
1st of all we already know about the big marriage! the scouring of the shire will not be far and that means saruman will be removed from the board!
2nd, the gundabad is finally announced(again), (hoping it will not be postponed.... again), and from the north vales quest line we know who is the ruler in there!
during PAX2020 it was announced a single boss raid and solo,3man, 6man, instances, gundabad being a part of north vales not separated and friendly to soloers.....
what we got is the vales divided(again) and only a buggy 3man,(shadowed king), but yes the north vales is an area friendly to soloers!
3rd, since iron hills update we know of something happening in the east(expecting this is nurn), driving immigrants to the west, aka dale lands!
SO..... since Lhaereth has escaped from minas morgul plus the stories of the immigrants i really expect she is our next big boss and the road we take is towards east and nurn, with the next expansion!
4rth, Karasgar, Ayorzen and Borangos might bring us back to mordor in the future just before encountering Harad, through south ithilien, anyway we have saw only a quarter of mordor(but this does not mean wee ll see the rest).....
the rest of the bosses you r writting about, i dont see them as magor opponents who would appear in something more than a 3man/6man instance........
concluding ....... i strongly believe, our next big adventure, with a huge series of quests shall be Lhaereth queen of plague, ESE way towards Nurn, within next expansion!
ok some people dont like merevail but others dont like dead or something else, thats ok you kill easier what you dont like :P
have fun all!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I’ve just realised that whenever I’ve written ‘Thraknul’ above (Sauron’s torturer from Naerband), I actually meant Throkhar, as a mighty nameless foe who controlled the Shadowed King and potentially many other nameless threats besides! It makes quite a difference to the level of threat they offer!

[myfreezr2]

I was reading through this thread and it got me thinking about future possibilities for major villains. I haven't completed the Black Book of Mordor yet (I'm in Chapter 12), but I've kept an eye on the Epic Quests via the wiki and have seen a few of the quests.

My biggest issue with the story going forward is that we're living in a post-Sauron Middle-earth. Saruman only has until the Scouring of the Shire, and then he's dead. So of course you'll never be able to come up with a villain with the same menace and threat as Sauron...or so you'd think.

I know that SSG doesn't have access to The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales, but that's never stopped them from getting creative, or making thinly-veiled references that anyone who's familiar with the books will be able to spot.

Let me explain. We know that Morgoth couldn't create life, but he could mutate and corrupt existing forms, and was able to draw multiple Maiar to his side (the balrogs, Sauron, and several others). He bred not only orcs, trolls, and dragons, but werewolves as well (I haven't seen any werewolves in LOTRO, but I've seen plenty of wargs) and almost certainly some other, more obscure monsters.

We also know that Morgoth wasn't the ONLY source of evil in Arda. There were plenty of Lovecraftian creatures that existed independently of him -- Ungoliant was evil before Morgoth's influence, and the Nameless in Moria were much the same. We've already faced Shelob and the Nameless, so we know that ancient evil not related to Sauron or Morgoth can exist in the game.

Thus we're left with a few possibilities: either a monster left behind from Morgoth's original experiments, or something completely unrelated to him. Sauron's influence stretched far, but even he had his limits, and with him gone, it will be slowly fading. What lies in the jungles of Far Harad, or the frozen reaches of Forodwaith? For all we know, the Haradrim and Lossoth of those regions joined with Sauron not because he promised them riches, but PROTECTION. What if there's some ancient, unfathomable monster roaming in Far Harad that Sauron's influence was holding back??? And now that he's gone, it's free again, and is terrorizing the Haradrim, and has the potential to make a new war on Middle-earth???

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I was reading through this thread and it got me thinking about future possibilities for major villains. I haven't completed the Black Book of Mordor yet (I'm in Chapter 12), but I've kept an eye on the Epic Quests via the wiki and have seen a few of the quests.

My biggest issue with the story going forward is that we're living in a post-Sauron Middle-earth. Saruman only has until the Scouring of the Shire, and then he's dead. So of course you'll never be able to come up with a villain with the same menace and threat as Sauron...or so you'd think.

I know that SSG doesn't have access to The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales, but that's never stopped them from getting creative, or making thinly-veiled references that anyone who's familiar with the books will be able to spot.

Let me explain. We know that Morgoth couldn't create life, but he could mutate and corrupt existing forms, and was able to draw multiple Maiar to his side (the balrogs, Sauron, and several others). He bred not only orcs, trolls, and dragons, but werewolves as well (I haven't seen any werewolves in LOTRO, but I've seen plenty of wargs) and almost certainly some other, more obscure monsters.

We also know that Morgoth wasn't the ONLY source of evil in Arda. There were plenty of Lovecraftian creatures that existed independently of him -- Ungoliant was evil before Morgoth's influence, and the Nameless in Moria were much the same. We've already faced Shelob and the Nameless, so we know that ancient evil not related to Sauron or Morgoth can exist in the game.

Yeah, that was my thought - Throkhar, in my mind, seems to fill that void (if we can indeed attribute to him the shaking of the earth in Moria, with a potential link to the upheaval in the east too? It all seems to be to do with the ground suddenly shaking, so maybe a theme there). A Nameless Maiar in terms of power, perhaps?

Based on the hints that have been dropped so far, I also wonder how powerful the entity of Orodruin is. Borangos (who seems pretty powerful by himself) is impressed by the power here, so perhaps Orodruin itself may contain (or is!) a Sauron-level threat for us to face.

I'm a little sad that we appear to be moving away from the Dragons (not Vethug level, I mean more of a rank with Hrimil/Smaug/Draigoch), but as Throstir escaped from Mordath, that's another potential big foe too.

I agree that there is also vast potential for something like this in the

[DisplTru]

Isn't Urudani still alive?

She'd be a super hot villain - literally.

[itshuntah31]

I know this is an old thread, but I think that Lhaereth and Ayorzen will likely be the next major players in the story , with Ayorzen probably not really being a villain but rather a morally grey character, as LOTRO goes into the East.

After Gundabad, the story seems to be pointing towards Rhun, here are a couple reasons why I think this is most likely :
-The convenient link from the Dale Lands/Iron Hills that wouldn’t require any porting/time jumping as would happen with Harad (since it would require them to create a new version of South Ithilien)
-The presence of Easterling refugees in Dale-lands/Iron Hills raises questions to what they are fleeing
-Aragorn’s conquests into the East.
-The Easterling character of Ayorzen who has disappeared after MM, it seems likely that he would return home due to his dislike of Gondor
-The origins of the Great Plague lie in the East.

These last two notes are particularly important, and I think that we will see Lhaereth as the main villain, perhaps trying to resurrect her old plague in the place where it started. Lhaereth also is a particular enemy of the Easterlings, if you will recall from Ayorzen’s dialogue, thus it’s very likely and fitting that the player character will unite with the Easterlings against Lhaereth.

As for Ayorzen, I have to think that LOTRO will somehow incorporate the mask of Karazgar into what he does in the East. Perhaps he pretends to be Karazgar in order to gain power and fear over the people of Rhun, or maybe he pretends he has slain Karazgar in order to gain power and respect. Our player character will have to right Ayorzens wrongs and sway him to take action against Lhaereth in this scenario.

As for Karazgar himself, I can’t quite make a prediction to where I see him, but it’s likely that he will be a major factor in the upcoming Gundabad expansion, as he has had a history with the dwarves we are going to Gundabad with, I just can’t see him not playing a role in Gundabad so it is tricky to tell what will happen to him after this expansion.


Of course, these are just my ideas, and I’m well aware that LOTRO will need plenty of more storylines to pad out this rather large region, with the Fields of Celduin, the Barding Lands, Dorwinion, and then Rhun.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I know this is an old thread, but I think that Lhaereth and Ayorzen will likely be the next major players in the story , with Ayorzen probably not really being a villain but rather a morally grey character, as LOTRO goes into the East.

After Gundabad, the story seems to be pointing towards Rhun, here are a couple reasons why I think this is most likely :
-The convenient link from the Dale Lands/Iron Hills that wouldn’t require any porting/time jumping as would happen with Harad (since it would require them to create a new version of South Ithilien)
-The presence of Easterling refugees in Dale-lands/Iron Hills raises questions to what they are fleeing
-Aragorn’s conquests into the East.
-The Easterling character of Ayorzen who has disappeared after MM, it seems likely that he would return home due to his dislike of Gondor
-The origins of the Great Plague lie in the East.

These last two notes are particularly important, and I think that we will see Lhaereth as the main villain, perhaps trying to resurrect her old plague in the place where it started. Lhaereth also is a particular enemy of the Easterlings, if you will recall from Ayorzen’s dialogue, thus it’s very likely and fitting that the player character will unite with the Easterlings against Lhaereth.

As for Ayorzen, I have to think that LOTRO will somehow incorporate the mask of Karazgar into what he does in the East. Perhaps he pretends to be Karazgar in order to gain power and fear over the people of Rhun, or maybe he pretends he has slain Karazgar in order to gain power and respect. Our player character will have to right Ayorzens wrongs and sway him to take action against Lhaereth in this scenario.

As for Karazgar himself, I can’t quite make a prediction to where I see him, but it’s likely that he will be a major factor in the upcoming Gundabad expansion, as he has had a history with the dwarves we are going to Gundabad with, I just can’t see him not playing a role in Gundabad so it is tricky to tell what will happen to him after this expansion.


Of course, these are just my ideas, and I’m well aware that LOTRO will need plenty of more storylines to pad out this rather large region, with the Fields of Celduin, the Barding Lands, Dorwinion, and then Rhun.

The east as a region definitely has a lot of potential - and it does make sense that Lhaereth might try to impose herself there, given the way that the Great Plague help her dominate the land previously. I think it would be interesting to see what happens with Ayorzen; as you mention, he is morally grey, so could be the individual that helps us to rally the Easterlings against Lhaereth, but could also betray us and ally with Lhaereth for his own personal gain.

Why might he do this? Well, if Karazgar decides to show up (assuming he isn't involved in Gundabad, although he could be) and Ayorzen is still in possession of the mask, he might seek to cut a deal with Lhaereth to save himself (despite his hatred of her). It almost feels that there's maybe more fun to be had with a bad Ayorzen than a good one!

[Alenari]

I know this is an old thread, but I think that Lhaereth and Ayorzen will likely be the next major players in the story , with Ayorzen probably not really being a villain but rather a morally grey character, as LOTRO goes into the East.

After Gundabad, the story seems to be pointing towards Rhun, here are a couple reasons why I think this is most likely :
-The convenient link from the Dale Lands/Iron Hills that wouldn’t require any porting/time jumping as would happen with Harad (since it would require them to create a new version of South Ithilien)
-The presence of Easterling refugees in Dale-lands/Iron Hills raises questions to what they are fleeing
-Aragorn’s conquests into the East.
-The Easterling character of Ayorzen who has disappeared after MM, it seems likely that he would return home due to his dislike of Gondor
-The origins of the Great Plague lie in the East.

These last two notes are particularly important, and I think that we will see Lhaereth as the main villain, perhaps trying to resurrect her old plague in the place where it started. Lhaereth also is a particular enemy of the Easterlings, if you will recall from Ayorzen’s dialogue, thus it’s very likely and fitting that the player character will unite with the Easterlings against Lhaereth.

As for Ayorzen, I have to think that LOTRO will somehow incorporate the mask of Karazgar into what he does in the East. Perhaps he pretends to be Karazgar in order to gain power and fear over the people of Rhun, or maybe he pretends he has slain Karazgar in order to gain power and respect. Our player character will have to right Ayorzens wrongs and sway him to take action against Lhaereth in this scenario.

As for Karazgar himself, I can’t quite make a prediction to where I see him, but it’s likely that he will be a major factor in the upcoming Gundabad expansion, as he has had a history with the dwarves we are going to Gundabad with, I just can’t see him not playing a role in Gundabad so it is tricky to tell what will happen to him after this expansion.


Of course, these are just my ideas, and I’m well aware that LOTRO will need plenty of more storylines to pad out this rather large region, with the Fields of Celduin, the Barding Lands, Dorwinion, and then Rhun.

Interesting! So, Ayorzen and his Easterlings may become possible allies to fight against Lhaereth.

[Alenari]

So, in Mordor there are still 'big bads" :
-Borangos the Horror and Urudani;
- Lhaereth (she may use fruit of Morloth to create new plague or poison);
Karazgar told us about 2 other Gurzyul - Mothgorod and Nulbanath...
***************
In the quest Shadow of Narchraw we found that the beast has indeed escaped Barad-dûr and perhaps escaped from Dor Amarth as well. Lomazar suggested that Narchraw would return to his home in Nan Ogol. So, it may be an instance (Nan -Ogol) for 6 members in future...

[theultimatekyle]

There's also still the last ring drake introduced in the Abyss storyline. We've dealt with Fingar, and Hirimil now, so all that's left is Thostir, who escaped and flew to the east. Which may be another Rhun story line

[Phantion]

Yeah, and as I said in parallel thread a minute ago, I also think they should consider reviving Mordrambor as a main villain for Umbar. They could use the "Halls of Black Lore" technique where the real villain is a fell spirit inhabiting "vessels" who needs a higher power to help thwart him in the end or something; I'd really want them to tie the Heirs of Castamir, Jajax's storyline, and the "Lords of Umbar" storyline from Volume 1 neatly together, and I think Mordrambor was the best villain they ever wrote. A cunning, sly sorcerer, mustache-twirling villain who is hard to track down. Rather than re-invent the wheel, and while perhaps a bit cliche because of Mordirith, I still would rather take an over-written "The Return of Mordrambor" over another generic "Rukhor" or "Ugrukhor" type.

Cheers!

[Halphast]

I don’t mind Lhaereth, but I think she has been poorly served by the narrative. She’s ... rather easily defeated by us ...To make her a properly imposing foe, we need to lose against her (or suffer some losses to her). My hope is that Nurn can revive the character as a proper foe.

That's my biggest problem with her- the plot has made her weak. The game mechanics have, too- we can kill her at Seregost but that bugs the instance and it resets. Therefore due to programming and not even for a plot reason, we have to allow her to escape. Forcing a defeat after we've repeatedly defeated her and seen her run away would be more annoying than it would be effective at setting her up as Big-Bad.

[Phantion]

That's my biggest problem with her- the plot has made her weak. The game mechanics have, too- we can kill her at Seregost but that bugs the instance and it resets. Therefore due to programming and not even for a plot reason, we have to allow her to escape. Forcing a defeat after we've repeatedly defeated her and seen her run away would be more annoying than it would be effective at setting her up as Big-Bad.

I totally agree. I think she needs to be the one behind the mayhem in Rhun or at least a central figure in it, and I would even say that her story itself was written rather wonkily.


I mean: it honestly would've made far more sense, narrative-wise, for her "attack on Minas Morgul" to have happened first - before - she got routed from Seregost and then take-off for Rhun or something. The idea that she had this huge host of vampires going after Gothmog after players stormed Seregost was really kind of absurd and didn't flow very well. Also, the idea that she would simply "drop off the recipe for the next great plague" also didn't make much sense with the Halls of Black Lore; surely she would have another go at it, even if she was thwarted temporarily by athelas?


EDIT: Halphast is right. I was reflecting on Tolkien's emphasis on some villains "to 'look fairer and yet feel fouler' (Frodo in FOTR)," but the way I wrote it didn't convey what I wanted it to.


Cheers!

[Alenari]

Yeah, and as I said in parallel thread a minute ago, I also think they should consider reviving Mordrambor as a main villain for Umbar. They could use the "Halls of Black Lore" technique where the real villain is a fell spirit inhabiting "vessels" who needs a higher power to help thwart him in the end or something; I'd really want them to tie the Heirs of Castamir, Jajax's storyline, and the "Lords of Umbar" storyline from Volume 1 neatly together, and I think Mordrambor was the best villain they ever wrote. A cunning, sly sorcerer, mustache-twirling villain who is hard to track down. Rather than re-invent the wheel, and while perhaps a bit cliche because of Mordirith, I still would rather take an over-written

So, Mordrambor is your favorite villain.And I like Dulgabeth, but I don't think that developers return to him(flashbacks, excursion into the Past, etc). The story of Black Word is eneded. But I think Dulgabeth deserved a better death than become a Lhaereth's test object. I think , that developers's favorite villains is Karazgar and Amarthiel. And what happened to the Sauron's magic knife, Gulthauk? Hope that this artefact is lost and nobody will use it to create creepy things and creatures. Here are some art..Dulgabeth at the beginning of his career:

[Alenari]

That's my biggest problem with her- the plot has made her weak. The game mechanics have, too- we can kill her at Seregost but that bugs the instance and it resets. Therefore due to programming and not even for a plot reason, we have to allow her to escape. Forcing a defeat after we've repeatedly defeated her and seen her run away would be more annoying than it would be effective at setting her up as Big-Bad.

I think , Borangos the Horror and Lhaereth is Maiar who served Morgoth in First Age and Sauron in Second and Third Ages. But Lhaereth injured and lost big half of her powers in battles of First Age, so she is weak. Lhaereth may be Thuringwethil 's daughter ( she was a female Maia who took the shape of a vampire and served Sauron at Tol-in-Gaurhoth (the former Tol Sirion), and also Morgoth, during the First Age) or her servant .

[Halphast]

to "look fairer and yet feel fouler" (Frodo in FOTR)

(Slightly off-topic tangent mode)

You know, this really made me think. Tolkien wrote that line, sure, but then did he ever use it? He talks about agents of the enemy looking fair and feeling foul... but then for the rest of the books, the enemies are always ugly or scary. In fact the concept of "look fair, feel foul" only comes into play when characters are doubting good people, like thinking Galadriel is a witch, or mistaking Gandalf the White for Saruman. When it comes to evil, it's always obvious. Weird!

Now I'm going to have to think for a while if Tolkien actually used this. I guess there's Sauron presenting himself as Annatar the Lord of Gifts... but that was when he was weak and had been defeated. He had to rely on "looking fair" until he got his power back. Once he was in full LotR mode he was 100% obviously evil the rest of his life.

/(Slightly off-topic tangent mode)

Back to Lhaereth, I actually think her horror-form is perfect. It's too much of a trope for a female villain to be beautiful/sexy. Looking at the Gurzyul, they're all scary and disfigured by the time we meet them. Urudani is questionable since she's a "naked fire lady" which is itself a sexualized trope. But when it comes to Lhaereth, her horrific appearance matches her story, her past. I think that's spot on. Similarly with Agath-kali, she was a full-on gaunt woman. They were right not to make her a "sexy zombie". For the most part LotRO does a great job not sexualizing women, but it's easy to get trope-y and exploitative in design so it shows a clear effort that they mostly stay away from that.

[Phantion]

(Slightly off-topic tangent mode)
Back to Lhaereth, I actually think her horror-form is perfect. It's too much of a trope for a female villain to be beautiful/sexy. Looking at the Gurzyul, they're all scary and disfigured by the time we meet them. Urudani is questionable since she's a "naked fire lady" which is itself a sexualized trope. But when it comes to Lhaereth, her horrific appearance matches her story, her past. I think that's spot on. Similarly with Agath-kali, she was a full-on gaunt woman. They were right not to make her a "sexy zombie". For the most part LotRO does a great job not sexualizing women, but it's easy to get trope-y and exploitative in design so it shows a clear effort that they mostly stay away from that.

I did edit my post above since you're right here; I reread what I wrote, and I could see how you read it, and it sounded very off-base from what I was trying to say. The perils of online communication

I just meant that, in general, Tolkien didn't seem to be taking the "look fairer yet feel fouler" trope far enough, and I think I was really trying to say I wished they could have taken more of an Amarthiel route with Lhaereth, and I agree with you that I think Urudani went more than quite a bit too far. It's the sort of thing they did in the Fell Wells instance or whatever it's called in Imlad Morgul that I thought they did better where Rauniel looks like Goldberry for most of the instance until "Surprise!" - which was more or less what I was after but didn't convey correctly. I agree with you, I think they went too far with the "pretty Merrevail" with the veils in Seregost.

Cheers!