Forum & Website Overhaul

[Boraxxe]

...But if you're going to put an engineer on it, I'd rather you have him dig into the existing source code and just fix the problem...

I think it's probably a completely different skill-set.

[Thurallor]

I think it's probably a completely different skill-set.

I'd be very surprised if SSG didn't have at least one software engineer who thought he was up to the task. But even if they decide to outsource it or contract it out, the choice remains as to whether to pay someone to fix it or to migrate it.

[Boraxxe]

I'd be very surprised if SSG didn't have at least one software engineer who thought he was up to the task. But even if they decide to outsource it or contract it out, the choice remains as to whether to pay someone to fix it or to migrate it.

Well, lots of folks have complained about the website/forums.
They should be fixed.
It would make many happy if they were brought up to current standards.
And many (I think you, Thurallor, would be included in this group) would be happier if their limited resources were spent on "other" things.
It's a marketing decision.

I think, if push came to shove, I would vote with you. I care much less about the forums than I care about the magic world of LOTRO.

But on the other hand, if they can fix the forums so they don't (bad word here) me off, and it doesn't affect LOTRO improvement too much, then I can live with it.

[Inkling]

Would hate to lose my name. But would hate even MORE to lose my join date. That's the true badge of honor.

[amandakay]

As a java web application developer, I read these forums, see Cord's posts, and can 100% feel the pain. My work supports code first written around 2005 (or perhaps a bit earlier), and it's a real pita sometimes. New devs don't know the stack, your senior devs eventually retire, and it's a hard sell to your stakeholders to justify rewriting stuff which currently works, especially knowing how long it'll take to re-write it...time which could be spent on new things rather than old things. When you do re-write something, someone has to decide how much is re-written, what stack is used, how compatible it should be with the old application, etc. Game development is a bit of a different beast from forums/web development. We use different tools, different libraries...SSG would either need to be lucky and have someone who keeps up with web forum technologies on the side, would need to cross-train someone, or hire someone with the skill set...but then they probably don't need a dedicated web developer beyond the initial massive project. It would be fun to do, though...well, fun for a crazy developer who likes those kinds of things. Hmm...I wonder if they could do some kind of automated data export from the existing forums, then use a script to auto-populate new accounts from our existing accounts, or something like temporarily reserving user names based on a person's email account with the option to import account data from the old website...yep I think too much.

[Boraxxe]

...your senior devs eventually retire...

That's gotta be murder.
You have that one guy. He's always there. His work is flawless. He never makes waves.
And then, he's gone.
And no one thought to give him a sponge to absorb that savvy.
You can't get him back.

Ack!
Whadda ya mean, everybody's mad?
It worked yesterday!

Grin.

[auximenes]

Would hate to lose my name. But would hate even MORE to lose my join date. That's the true badge of honor.

If we could manually add it to our title on the new boards that would help although some players would fabricate that date. It would hurt to lose the join date since to me it's an important indicator of what knowledge the player (probably) has.

[Marancil]

Choosing a new forum software is hard. I recently registered on half a dozen new sites and their forums. Having first hand experience setting up forums, upgrading and maintaining, and having dealt with several different "manufacturers" of the software I am extremely and totally opposed to tag based hierarchies with infinite scrolling implemented by, to name one, Discourse. There is material for a lengthy discussion, but I just wanted to mention what I would NOT want to see on this site.

[thinx]

I think in reality "most" regulars here will not have an issue getting their name. We can make deliberate name-sniping-to-harass/troll a forum offense and deal with it on a case by case basis. Assuming most are willing to log in relatively quickly after the change was made and grab their name, few will run into issues. Meanwhile, seriously thousands if not tens of thousands of names will be freed that have been dead for more than a decade and newer. Yes, you'll have to grab your name, but since most "forum regulars" log in with enough frequency to get the job done, I suspect it'll be more of a worry than an actual issue.

I wouldn't mind to get a new forum name, but having someone else post "in my name" would IMO be a problem.
People could express an opinion that is seen as the one of the previous owner - and by doing that in a smart way, people might not notice. Or they could behave in a bad way, that is just below the CoC radar. As a forum moderator you definitely know how provocative people can be without direcly violating the CoC. This is the art of trolling and its target is to NOT give you enough reason for a ban.
Will it be a few individuals? Who knows. People can prepare a list of names and register all of them them within an hour of opening the forums, using well-known anonymization services. And it would be your work to clean after them, one by one.
Or there might be no problem at all.

The one thing that we can be sure about is that there will be a sufficiently long time window for people to grab a name. We have time zones, sleeping times, RL obligations and the uncertainty of the new forum launch. Most people will probably register within 24 hours, which means that names can be grabbed with ease.

The potential solutions, in descending order of my preference

1. Problem is ignored, but there are no trolls. Possible, but I doubt it.
2. Allow people to keep their name (technical solution required, e.g. sending people a mail with login token might be sufficient)
3. Generate a script that grants forum titles with old names.
4. Block all old names for some limited time (e.g. a year), such that it is clear that these are no longer the same users.
5. A lot of work for support (a single troll can register 100 accounts with ease, a script is set up within minutes). Please note that this might not be resolved quickly. Trolls could save up a few accounts and start more waves.
6. Problem is ignored and a lot of people will be angry because they won't get their name or their name is abused (regardless if within or outside of CoC)

5 is quite low on the list, because IF there is a problem, the numbers will be too high for support to handle this in a proper way.

[BINKLEY1]

Advantages -
1) SSG can speak to the community even if the data center is down!!
2) Performance should be much improved.
3) Backup and recovery is no longer an issue/worry for SSG
4) New features and modern look
5) Users would be able to link to their emails for alerts (if they wanted)

This is a Jim-dandy idea!

I for one welcome our new Internet forums! <-- Obligatory meme reference

Wiping tear from eye ... in all earnestness, this is really a good idea. You won me over SavinDwarf when you said "cloud" in your full post.

I work for a prominent global IT consultancy particularly adept at projects like these; I know first hand they can work well. This is the kind of work that puts a spring into my step each day. Really looking forward to SSG deciding to take the plunge. LotRO is the bee's knees.

(Side note -- PHP ... well, that's what it is. )


Cheers,
Gloimli @ ex-Windfola

[oldsneakers]

Would hate to lose my name. But would hate even MORE to lose my join date. That's the true badge of honor.

not really...we have people who have been here since 1969

[Echoweaver]

I'm quite happy to dive in and grab my name again. I can live with the old forums getting archived.

My biggest concern is my avatar pic and my subtitle! Can I put those back??

I'd also be sad to see my post count go to zero. It took me 5+ years to get to 1000.

[Cordovan]

I'm quite happy to dive in and grab my name again. I can live with the old forums getting archived.

My biggest concern is my avatar pic and my subtitle! Can I put those back??

I'd also be sad to see my post count go to zero. It took me 5+ years to get to 1000.

One option I have been exploring is whether users could just upload their own avatars and titles. While it could be a moderation headache (my bet is it is only a minor one), it might be cool. Dunno how that works in the cloud, but I assume there is a way to do it. I believe it would be similar to images in that they would need to be hosted elsewhere and linked to through the profile UI.

[Echoweaver]

One option I have been exploring is whether users could just upload their own avatars and titles. While it could be a moderation headache (my bet is it is only a minor one), it might be cool. Dunno how that works in the cloud, but I assume there is a way to do it. I believe it would be similar to images in that they would need to be hosted elsewhere and linked to through the profile UI.

For sufficiently small file sizes, would it not be possible to host them? Avatar pics seem like a pretty common user-customizable feature for forums.

Not a huge deal, but curious.

Having a custom avatar pic and title is kind of a status symbol on this forum, and I'd be lying if I said that meant nothing to me. But this is one of the few forums I'm a part of where I can't change my avatar without admin intervention.

[gcpate]

... While it could be a moderation headache (my bet is it is only a minor one), it might be cool. ...

The Internet, this is Cordovan. Cordovan, the Internet. It seems you haven't met.

[Cordovan]

The Internet, this is Cordovan. Cordovan, the Internet. It seems you haven't met.

Maybe, but if so we could yeet it.




















*There, I have now put yeet into the Dev Tracker

[Boraxxe]

...
*There, I have now put yeet into the Dev Tracker

Yes, you have yought.


/bow

[borodor3]

The Internet, this is Cordovan. Cordovan, the Internet. It seems you haven't met.

trying to make aware that gameplay at the moment is almost impossible server feezing major rubber banding and disconnections game needs major fix many people fed up with the game atm is a shame as i love the game but you need to be able to play it

[krypto182]

Thank you for Cordovan for actively responding and engaging with my thread. I know this is something you want to happen and I appreciate you explaining the challenges that are in the way and how things need to line up to make this happen. I look forward to the day we can have a modern forum/community site.

[IcarusLSC]

TONS of websites have changed from vbulletin to newer software and kept/migrated their old ones.

[Marancil]

TONS of websites have changed from vbulletin to newer software and kept/migrated their old ones.

Yes, indeed they have. But often at a cost... and vbulletin is not an old software v 5 is out and the forum is running the version 4 branch. https://www.vbulletin.com/

The customizations of this forum makes it a respectable effort to upgrade to a new version and in this Cordovan needs to decide whether to keep with vBulletin or migrate to something else. If migrating to something else you need a database mapping tool and an experienced developer to handle that. Export to SQL, review consistency, check for oddities and customizations, use the tool to push to a new database, review the result and fix what's wrong. Especially the last part can take time.

That is why changes to the core code and database of any site or forum must be documented and avoided because once you step outside the manufacturers standard tabla and database layout you will get issues that will require manual hands on to fix. I never touch the core code of any software if I can avoid it, instead I look for additions or plugins that can do the job for me. Not to long ago I migrated a forum that was created in 2005 to a new and different platform. My only reason for doing this was the fact that the existing platform was not being actively developed at a satisfactory rate, so I decided to change to something that was. It cost me time and money and the forum was not very large compared to this one, but still about 20,000 entries and still a lot of manual work after that. Not to mention a completely new interface and administration I had to learn how to handle.

[OghranNasty]

But the 4.2.3 version SSG is running is old.
Version 4 started in 2009, the last version of that branch is 4.2.5, and has been declared end of life years ago. Last security patch for 4.x was issued 4 years ago.

Anyway, the trouble with migrating is not just migrating the users and messages, but the several old authentication systems hooked into the back of it, Cord mentioned before. Disengaging the forum authentication system(s) from the game one(s) was one of the main goals he said. (Yes! Cord provided technical detail! ) And most of that effort would be for naught, as it is safe to assume that a very large chunk of the accounts are dead.
He also indicated that he would prefer a cloud solution, where vBulletin Cloud seems to be a likely candidate.

As for custom migrations: forget it. Such migrations are always way more expensive then expected and always result in more data loss or data quality loss then expected. No exceptions. Believe me: part of my job is figuring out ways to overcome the mess custom migrations created.

[Marancil]

Thats fine, i did not in anyway exclude or try to ignore what was posted above, the integration with the login and account is only one more example of things that makes a migration difficult, if even feasible.

[YamydeAragon]

Respectfully, I disagree. While a full web site overhaul may never happen, we do have a formal intention to move to vBulletin Cloud and archive the current forums to become read-only. Obviously there are some questions that need to be answered and prepared for, one of the biggest being community acceptance of having to start fresh, and not have their names saved. We would also permanently unhook your game log in credentials with your LOTRO forums credentials.

Old player here that regularly plays LOTRO & use the forums. I think that these conditions are fair & agree with the change if they improves the forums readability organization & appearance.

[Marancil]

archive the current forums to become read-only.

I missed that part. So no migration and this place dies.

I have, in different roles, taken part in related decisions on a few other large forums and I have always been opposed to such a plan. Always. To me, you kill the history of the main topic, being that a game, a software or a community for knitting ladies. Sure, a lot gets irrelevant over time and a lot may need to be cleaned out, some sections of the forums may need a restart, if not for anything else, to cope with the game development, but to archive 70% or more and make it read only, or eventually dump it.... that is a very tough call and very disruptive to people who have been active, in our case, since 2007 and still may browse through old topics and threads reminiscing. Don't do that.