Chamber

[Mithithil]

Anyone had a chnace to go as LM in one of the tiers where you get somehting you might want? What did you go as?

[Hephburz-2]

Anyone had a chnace to go as LM in one of the tiers where you get somehting you might want? What did you go as?

If you're referring to Chambers (Shadowed King / Askad-Mazal) T4/5 - I've always gone as Red/Yellow, but then, I've always been with a Cappy Tank - a different tank would probably require a different approach and with more morale too.

[Mithithil]

If you're referring to Chambers (Shadowed King / Askad-Mazal) T4/5 - I've always gone as Red/Yellow, but then, I've always been with a Cappy Tank - a different tank would probably require a different approach and with more morale too.

That's how I went, its more the massive shortage of anyone looking for an LM to go in the first place. I assume you take the "healing" slot.

[Melkorben]

Anyone had a chnace to go as LM in one of the tiers where you get somehting you might want? What did you go as?

Hi Mithithil,
For T1 and T2 you can trait Red/blue and help dps.
As I remember you as the bear master, you can also tank at these tiers with no problems.
For T5 I always go in Yellow/blue and support the fellow, run this with a hunter and you will have a full time job there.
At T5 your dps is just too low and insignificant so IMO its also nothing to bother with, even if you run with no hunter.
Our runs at T5 with Cappy, hunter, LM was the fastest: less than 6 minutes and very safe.
With Cappy, Champ, LM is almost similar but less work for you as well
Cheers

[Hephburz-2]

That's how I went, its more the massive shortage of anyone looking for an LM to go in the first place. I assume you take the "healing" slot.

If you are without a Captain definitely you need to fill that healing spot, in which case, without a Captain I would suggest Yellow-Blue. With a Captain, if they're good enough to keep themselves alive, you really only need to throw the occasional heal on yourself and the DPS (more-so if they're a melee DPS as they'll be in range of AoE / puddles). But I'd still say Red-Yellow with a Captain, allows you to still cc and debuff, whilst providing ample DPS.

At T5 your dps is just too low and insignificant so IMO its also nothing to bother with, even if you run with no hunter.

I wasn't aware 100k-90k DPS and doing 14-20mil damage to the boss, was "insignificant" - silly me.

[Melkorben]

I wasn't aware 100k-90k DPS and doing 14-20mil damage to the boss, was "insignificant" - silly me.

Yes, in that case you are not at optimal support role so its better to take a dps role instead of you.
I wonder what is the CA result of the hunters that runs with you...I guess pretty low.

[Hephburz-2]

Yes, in that case you are not at optimal support role so its better to take a dps role instead of you.
I wonder what is the CA result of the hunters that runs with you...I guess pretty low.

It's good I don't run with hunters then

And my debuffs and off-heals make it an easy fight. Or do you also kill the boss in 4minutes?

[Melkorben]

It's good I don't run with hunters then

And my debuffs and off-heals make it an easy fight. Or do you also kill the boss in 4minutes?

Boss goes down after 2 minutes approx. maybe even less.
If we could draw all the trash from start it will be much faster.
At high tiers LM dps is a waste of time/role spot- that's my opinion and we already disagree about that many times.
The OP ask for opinions and I gave him mine.

[Hephburz-2]

At high tiers LM dps is a waste of time/role spot- that's my opinion and we already disagree about that many times.

So, you agree your method is slower and takes more time, yet, my way is still wrong according to you - I see.

[Melkorben]

So, you agree your method is slower and takes more time, yet, my way is still wrong according to you - I see.

No, and I really don't care what are you doing or making a fictional contest with you.
I stop playing approximately one month ago and I didn't run that instance for a few months, maybe now with the new essences and relics it can be done faster, 4 minutes to clear all the instance at T5 you say...frankly I don't care because we didn't try to gain any record.
Enjoy the game Gandalf!

[Aeviternus]

I don't know why I randomly stumbled across an LM thread. However, the very first Chambers T5 run I did, which was probably one of the first completions in the world (which isn't a "boast" - just an indication), was with an LM, and we killed the boss in ~7 minutes (on release). So it is definitely not a "waste of a spot". Running with an LM is significantly faster than running with a healer. The only way it could be faster is either with double DPS, which isn't a safe option for PUG groups, or maybe with a red captain instead of an LM. I am not even convinced that the latter is true.

[Melkorben]

I don't know why I randomly stumbled across an LM thread. However, the very first Chambers T5 run I did, which was probably one of the first completions in the world (which isn't a "boast" - just an indication), was with an LM, and we killed the boss in ~7 minutes (on release). So it is definitely not a "waste of a spot". Running with an LM is significantly faster than running with a healer. The only way it could be faster is either with double DPS, which isn't a safe option for PUG groups, or maybe with a red captain instead of an LM. I am not even convinced that the latter is true.

I also cleared that instance at T5 in day one, as many of us mostly because it was bugged.
Week after that (after patch) many encounter more difficulty to do it.
LM was back then one of the best choice to take there, not sure about now since we already saw 2/3 T5 clear (Cappy/Champ) and many runs with 2xdps and Cappy (before the War of the Three Peaks).
I choose to focus on support in my runs, this is my "style", that mean to use Catmint bonus gear with pet rotation (for permanent spirit and raven if there is a hunter), use outgoing healing essence, BB set, etc. and basically not to dps and making lag/fps issues (and also avoid unnecessary aggro on me...)
And IMO this instance at T5 is still not so optimal for pugs but maybe now it change with the War of the Three Peaks.

[Aeviternus]

I also cleared that instance at T5 in day one, as many of us mostly because it was bugged.
Week after that (after patch) many encounter more difficulty to do it.
LM was back then one of the best choice to take there, not sure about now since we already saw 2/3 T5 clear (Cappy/Champ) and many runs with 2xdps and Cappy (before the War of the Three Peaks).
I choose to focus on support in my runs, this is my "style", that mean to use Catmint bonus gear with pet rotation (for permanent spirit and raven if there is a hunter), use outgoing healing essence, BB set, etc. and basically not to dps and making lag/fps issues (and also avoid unnecessary aggro on me...)
And IMO this instance at T5 is still not so optimal for pugs but maybe now it change with the War of the Three Peaks.

I'm clearly not talking about abusing the non-combat bug for the adds, otherwise I wouldn't have commented in the first place. You were the one complaining about your class, and I'm telling you it's fine. You don't even really seem to disagree, so I'm not sure why you made that comment in the first place. It doesn't matter what your style is - if your style is sub-optimal, then that issue is yours alone.

LMs have a crucial role in raid content, 6-man content and they are the best pick for the support role in 3-mans, particularly early on in an expansion/update. So maybe you could tune down the

At high tiers LM dps is a waste of time/role spot- that's my opinion.

a bit, because it's an incorrect opinion.

[Hephburz-2]

I'm clearly not talking about abusing the non-combat bug for the adds, otherwise I wouldn't have commented in the first place. You were the one complaining about your class, and I'm telling you it's fine. You don't even really seem to disagree, so I'm not sure why you made that comment in the first place. It doesn't matter what your style is - if your style is sub-optimal, then that issue is yours alone.

LMs have a crucial role in raid content, 6-man content and they are the best pick for the support role in 3-mans, particularly early on in an expansion/update. So maybe you could tune down the

a bit, because it's an incorrect opinion.

I commend your effort Deru, unfortunately, there's no reasoning with this one. According to him, a LM must sit, debuff, off-heal and use his pets, whilst standing AFK for the remaining 50% of the time.

[Melkorben]

I'm clearly not talking about abusing the non-combat bug for the adds, otherwise I wouldn't have commented in the first place. You were the one complaining about your class, and I'm telling you it's fine. You don't even really seem to disagree, so I'm not sure why you made that comment in the first place. It doesn't matter what your style is - if your style is sub-optimal, then that issue is yours alone.

LMs have a crucial role in raid content, 6-man content and they are the best pick for the support role in 3-mans, particularly early on in an expansion/update. So maybe you could tune down the

a bit, because it's an incorrect opinion.

Im really sorry m8, I didn't meant to imply that you exploit - my bad.
I think that Im quite optimal here since my first 2 runs after patch, on that day, was with a **Guard** and hunter and it took us no more than 5:48 minutes or so to finish that instance at T5.
We did it very safely, calm while listening to music on discord and for sure we didn't try to get any record here.
In that run I was very very busy and so far from being "afk".
If now, after War of the Three Peaks stuffs, you can do it faster- cheers m8, after I got 2 sets I stop run that instance.
Even with no hunter I never find my self in that instance afk or doing nothing, if you can do more- once again- cheers!
LM is needed on raid and there is no argue on it, 6-man content I can argue on it if I compare it, for example, to KK or to the MM ones (Black lore and Houses of Lamentation).
At 3-man LM is not needed (excluded Chamber).
Sure for pugs and non geared alts runs LM can help very much but Im no talking about these situations.
As for dps, Im playing at three different servers and still cant see any random kins runs, raids, pugs, lff that asking for LM dps role.
I already understood that some here are doing it (dps and support) and Im happy to hear it.
Cheers

[Hephburz-2]

As for dps, Im playing at three different servers and still cant see any random kins runs, raids, pugs, lff that asking for LM dps role.
I already understood that some here are doing it (dps and support) and Im happy to hear it.
Cheers

No one asks for the LM to fill a DPS role. No one asks for a Healing Beorning for a DPS role either, but do you think this means that they don't? They're meant to be healing, so they shouldn't be putting up bee's + armour crush? A good Beorning will do 30k~ DPS whilst Healing. A good LM will do 50-70k~ DPS whilst supporting (in a Raid), more outside of a Raid. And perhaps you're right, for 6man content, no, maybe a LM isn't "needed", but having a LM in Support/DPS makes the run a whole lot easier than choosing to go without one.

[Melkorben]

No one asks for the LM to fill a DPS role. No one asks for a Healing Beorning for a DPS role either, but do you think this means that they don't? They're meant to be healing, so they shouldn't be putting up bee's + armour crush? A good Beorning will do 30k~ DPS whilst Healing. A good LM will do 50-70k~ DPS whilst supporting (in a Raid), more outside of a Raid. And perhaps you're right, for 6man content, no, maybe a LM isn't "needed", but having a LM in Support/DPS makes the run a whole lot easier than choosing to go without one.

In raids I prefer to run with Hunters also, that means I will always go Yellow/blue, use BB set, rotate 4 pets, on two of them Ill use permeant Catmint and will do off healing (tank/range team).
While Im doing that, and ofc. pay attention to mechanics (that in most cases cause to reset some LM skills), I cant find any space of time to **maintain** a decent DPS, once again- if you can do that- cheers!

Just to make it clear: I hate it!!
I hate the fact that I need to go thru almost to the middle of the blue tree only for one single skill, I hate to rotate pets, I hate to use **3** units of gear from HD 30 lvl below and not using the new golden ones at lvl, I hate the fact that we (LM's) have so many obsolete skills and legacies and no one cares, we have only ***one*** staff legacy for support?!
LM game play is so outdated and very boring.
Go also dps in raids? this is even worse...so low values, very slow, too depended on stationery mobs and ofc cause lag/fps issues to 12 ppl while ruin their dps rotations/phrases

[Nicname]

In raids I prefer to run with Hunters also, that means I will always go Yellow/blue, use BB set, rotate 4 pets, on two of them Ill use permeant Catmint and will do off healing (tank/range team).
While Im doing that, and ofc. pay attention to mechanics (that in most cases cause to reset some LM skills), I cant find any space of time to **maintain** a decent DPS, once again- if you can do that- cheers!

Just to make it clear: I hate it!!
I hate the fact that I need to go thru almost to the middle of the blue tree only for one single skill, I hate to rotate pets, I hate to use **3** units of gear from HD 30 lvl below and not using the new golden ones at lvl, I hate the fact that we (LM's) have so many obsolete skills and legacies and no one cares, we have only ***one*** staff legacy for support?!
LM game play is so outdated and very boring.
Go also dps in raids? this is even worse...so low values, very slow, too depended on stationery mobs and ofc cause lag/fps issues to 12 ppl while ruin their dps rotations/phrases

Totally agree with you, especially the last part. Our LM is also DPSing when he's got some spare time. Recently we we're doing remm id2 and while we were trying to make a new Burg used to Combo the spitter, and we were in a somehow busy situation where no one could barely see anything LM threw sticky ground into the whole mess. No one was able to see anything that happened in the upcoming hellfire, Burg was swearing his a** off bc that caused him to miss his combo, spitter puked into the group and that was it. I mean yeah, LM can do some decent burst when needed. But i see it the way Melkorben does - when i'm on LM and doing full Support, pet Rotation, on CD waterlore, spending Power and keeping SoP:C plus Fire/Frostlore's secondary debuffs from Fire Skills uptime I dont see much spare time to focus on DPSing. And imho - when you're raiding and failing on DPS either your DDs didn't do dmg or supporters didn't Support enough. Simple as that.
No hate, Just opinions - Peace Guys!

[Estelrandir]

Completly off topic, but I agree with Melkorben. I do not play much these days, so my skills are rusty, but I never had a lot of dps in raids. Actually, with Helms Deep changes went my dps almost to zero. Mainly because one started the pet rotation and windlore spam. Thus, I have difficulties to see the space for such dps. On the other side it motivates me to improve myself and find a way to achieve this.


To Melkorben´s second part, I would just use words "I don´t like it" instead hate it.


I never liked using old gear, whether +5% crit chance or BB set and so. Yes, it made gearing up for LM easier, but it is not really "gearing up" if you use the same equipment acquired a few years ago.

I do not like pet rotation, it takes a lot of time. I liked the original idea of LM, where pet and LM were fighting together and the loss of pet was crucial hit to the LM. Thus keeping it alive was essential part of LM play in comparison to today where LM uses pets just as prerequisite to other skills. I do like the possibility to resummon the pet in the battle, but it should have cooldown in my opinion.


On the other side, I still like to play LM. I would like to improve the class - in some aspects more, in some less, but I still like my LM.

(and 1 support legacy for staff is there since the beginning of the days, so I do not really have issue with this, but it has a space to improvement )

[Melkorben]

when you're raiding and failing on DPS either your DDs didn't do dmg or supporters didn't Support enough. Simple as that.

Right m8,
Rotate Pets+ catmint, using BB set, Tar, Warding Knowledge, AC and Wind-Lore T3 buff the entire raid damage and to keep these up all the time its a full time job.
That way the contribution of the LM damage buff on entire raid is much better than to squeez some relatively low two digit value from him only while gaining lack of dps from the DD's.
I respect others that say that they can do all of this and help dps- I admit that I cant do both
Cheers

[Melkorben]

Completly off topic, but I agree with Melkorben. I do not play much these days, so my skills are rusty, but I never had a lot of dps in raids. Actually, with Helms Deep changes went my dps almost to zero. Mainly because one started the pet rotation and windlore spam. Thus, I have difficulties to see the space for such dps. On the other side it motivates me to improve myself and find a way to achieve this.


To Melkorben´s second part, I would just use words "I don´t like it" instead hate it.


I never liked using old gear, whether +5% crit chance or BB set and so. Yes, it made gearing up for LM easier, but it is not really "gearing up" if you use the same equipment acquired a few years ago.

I do not like pet rotation, it takes a lot of time. I liked the original idea of LM, where pet and LM were fighting together and the loss of pet was crucial hit to the LM. Thus keeping it alive was essential part of LM play in comparison to today where LM uses pets just as prerequisite to other skills. I do like the possibility to resummon the pet in the battle, but it should have cooldown in my opinion.


On the other side, I still like to play LM. I would like to improve the class - in some aspects more, in some less, but I still like my LM.

(and 1 support legacy for staff is there since the beginning of the days, so I do not really have issue with this, but it has a space to improvement )

WB m8!
I agree 100% with you, especially about the pet.
About the Staff, for a class that the main role is support I would like to have better ways to achieve it by using his main tool.
You can see the staff as the LM main weapon and therefore it has 16/17 legacies for damage but I see it as a tool- see the animations- the LM is using his staff for many support skills that count as an non damage kinds/type so I see no problem to give us more non damage legacies on it.
I will have no problem to use Pre-Imbue one also.

And apologies from me to Mithithil to go so off topic here.