As the West celebrates the Resurrection - the East using an older calendar does so at the end of the month - many here chose to use the argumentation of choice of school children - mockery.
Personally, I have no idea if the symbol in question represents paganism, satanism or nothing at all. But placing the oldest symbol of Lucifer on or over a cross is bound to raise eyebrows. Unless of course
the serpent is placed underneath the Cross (better yet, a Crucifix) accurately representing what historically happened.
LOTRO's main strengths are its world class story, lore and world building. It has always been my impression these elements are why most remaining players are here. I find the game is much more enjoyable
as one further understands the meaning behind LOTR. Some of the responses suggest a lack of any understanding what the story is really all about.
Mr. Tolkien was a Christian. The religion he practiced would today be called Traditional Roman Catholicism. No Traditional Catholic I have ever met - and I know many - would approve of the symbol in question. Nor
would they white wash the topic as a nothing burger. Nor mock the one who raised questions.
Paganism, occultism and satanism are a serious business and should not be taken lightly. There is a reason the Old Testament Jews had to go to the pagan Romans to get their killing done.
For those who might like to learn more about the symbolism behind LOTR a large number of resources exist. One good starting place might be to search for Joseph Pearce in reference to Lord of the Rings.
Hope that helps some.
The symbol raised by the OP is out of character for LOTR whether placed in LOTRO innocuously or not.
Err... apart from how TharbadThief appears to be absolutely right about this being taken from Fullmetal Alchemist, the symbols used were lifted from real-world alchemical tradition and while that means they're occult (in the sense of 'hidden knowledge), the medieval mindset could be rather convoluted and alchemy was not only accepted but had philosophical connections with Christianity. Both the crucified serpent and the pentagram have appeared in Christian symbolism and religious art; the serpent comes from a Bible reference (I could quote you chapter and verse) so I think you and the OP need a reality check.
And last for now-Those Satanic Rune Keepers who use ancient mysticism and symbols to slay thier enemies? calliing on unnatural things to do thier bidding-ya know kinda like the undead, unseen, etc...that call up and reanimate the dead for their bidding.
You can try prying my Runestones from my cold, dead, Dwarven hands!
Woah, I never noticed that :0
Granted, I stay well away from the Warden, generally speaking.
But yeah, myself I'm not fond of pentagrams as a rule.
What I think will get SSG to budge on the artwork (if at all) is that Full Metal Alchemist comparison, rather than raising the (in my eyes) more "ahem"-worthy pentagram point.
To SSG - I have no problems with any kind of symbols, writing, images used in the game. I have no fear nor concern with such things. Carry on doing the great work you've been doing on the game!
Ya'll can mock all you want, but this snippet right here is the 100% truth. Tolkien was a devout Christian.
Maybe stop regurgitating the term "Devout" as if it weighs into how Tolkien would write a Fantasy (yes it reflects his core values, but all works of literature reflect their authors).
There's a difference between personal faith and dictating which symbols should be present in media.
Granted, a logo clearly from a Japanese Anime series doesn't *really* belong in a Lord of the Rings game, playing the Christian card is a false argument.
I agree that if these symbols are not in line with canon or have any reference to lore, they should be removed. Designs and patterns are one thing, obvious symbols are another.
True, thanks
Originally Posted by TearMaker
I have no experience in matters of the occult and would have never noticed it but if they are Occult symbols then they should be removed.
Carebear brigade has nothing to do with it. If these are occult signs (again I don't know) then they may have been slipped in by a member of staff who did so for any number of reasons or it could just be that they didn't realise what they were. That being said it doesn't make it correct for them not to be addressed as they are uncovered.
Learn social history and realise the nefarious ways subtle hints or dropping things into the everyday slowly corrupts or makes one susceptible to suggestion.
That all being said, if you believe in Christianity then the inverted cross is a symbol of allegedly Peter death and how he didn't feel worthy to be crucified the same way as Christ and so had them invert the cross so he was crucified upside down and has also been adopted by the Popes as their physical manifestation of Peter hereafter. But the snake makes it more sinister in that it does pull it then closer into a sinful state clearly pointing to when the "devil" tempted Eve in the garden of Eden.
There is no place in a game that is rated for children to play where subtle or obvious blatant real life symbolism is displayed...be that Christianity or Satanism.
It seems that the full symbol is from "Full metal alchemist", an anime series. Of course it doesnt change nothing, but as i now TLOTR is from a Christian autor and full metal alchemist it´s not. Thanks for the reply!
Originally Posted by Joedangod
There's no IRL issue here, it's not an actual occult symbol, at best it pays homage to European symbology. Lorewise...it's not entirely out of place, Christians can hardly claim a symbol as basic as a cross as their own. As for admiration for Tolkein? I can't imagine he'd be upset that American artists are looking towards European influences for the art they add into the game.
Thinking this is a problem is somewhat immature.
As far as i know, the things Tolkien introduced to TLOTR have a real place in middle earth, but this symbol seems to be introduced just for the sake of it. It doens´t have a place.
Someone posted about Gawain, a knight from the king Arthur legends, that really did have a pentagram on his shield, and that Tolkien made a book about him. But in a slight investigation i did, it represents five virtues of a perfect knight, the wounds of Christ and something about Mary i dont remember now. A pentagram is just a symbol right? It can have lot of meanings, sometimes good, sometimes bad or neutral. But here we have it in combination with a cross and a serpent, making it go the "bad" side of the bar, its hard to miss.
Originally Posted by MourneBlade
The game is rated Teen plus. As far as occult symbols that you have no idea about as you claim do some research.
Also do I really need to mention that way back any kind of RPG tabletop game was considered DEVIL WORSHIPPING. Those who played them were considered satan and occult worshippers. Shall we bring back the Inquisition for those who don't believe what you do should be burned at the stake? How about book burning rallies and that you could accuse anyone of anything and have them murdered because they didn't live life how you wanted.
Where are all the people who want drinking, smoking, running around drunk, building snowmen (false idols) and etc...up in arms about this??? How about stomping on small animals, gambling addicts who can't control spending irl money on hobbit prestents, loot boxes, etc....
Pick your battles. Quit trying to police the rest of us. You play in a fantasy Genre, get used to it. This isn't real life.
Okay while I'm at it-nah done with imbeciles on here who need to take offense at anything and everything they can think of. Oh wait I forgot to mention hitting some kids with nerf bats in Rohan was a major upset awhile back.
How about we show some kindness and understanding to orcs, half orcs, giants, undead, etc... they didn't want to be that way. It's just they way they were brought up. So lets all just end war by sitting down with them and sing some campfire songs and have some understanding with eachother. Sauron was a craptastic dad, It's not thier fault!
Killing wildlife-Wow so many have taken up arms against this. Lets get rid of anything and everything having to do with this, including killing baby dragons that will kill dwarves later.
Killing female brigands or any female of anything-where is the up in arms about this?
And last for now-Those Satanic Rune Keepers who use ancient mysticism and symbols to slay thier enemies? calliing on unnatural things to do thier bidding-ya know kinda like the undead, unseen, etc...that call up and reanimate the dead for their bidding.
Lets get rid of all this stuff and have a boring as hell game!!!
In this game as in others our characters fights for good, as you say the game wouldnt have a meaning without these problems, it would be a boring game (but i would really love a farming simulator game on middle earth lol, having your own farm, going to Minas Tirith to sell, random elven visit, having a family haha).
But in something you´re wrong, this is fantasy genre, but in this ocassion the setting is made by a Christian autor. Also, i believe it would be better for fantasy games to create their own systems of magic, religions, etc. Picking a random idol or symbol from our world and putting them in that fantasy world is just lazy and not creative.
It seems you have strong feelings against catholicism and its past actions. I have to say that im not catholic, but Christ said "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her" and everyone leaved because...
I dont want to police anyone, but i dont really understand how recoloring the shield can affect you negatively...
These evil things you listed have a place in the story to make the light shine the clearer.
As living beings we will find evil people and problems, and stories like this give you hope. I think that was what Tolkien wanted to tell.
Originally Posted by StoatMandible
I don't mean to be facetious when I say that "penta" means five, but for those who missed it, there appear to be four points. I also don't see a cross: the see a sword (pomell at top, guard running left/right, and long blade obscured by snake).
I do see a snake.
Unless "the occult" has cornered the market on snakes, I think we're looking at something innocuous.
Sorry but my main is weaponsmith, so i cant make you glasses for now
Originally Posted by Tancanspanc
Nice looking shield.
I wasn't aware of this design so Thanks for spotlighting it.
Think I'll get one for my warden.
kind regards
A 'grown up'.
By your reply i can see you arent "grow up", maybe you´re physically but not in other aspects. But i dont know you, and i hope im wrong.
The thing is that now you know what you´re doing. You were informed, and you decided this.
Im not your father, you can do as you will.
Originally Posted by DiannaHimi
I do not understand the point of this thread.
A minor shield engraving, that might or might not have anything to do with religion or occults, calling it an anti-Tolkien lore, in a game where Black Book of Mordor, Cosmetic Wings, Rune-Keepers and a certain female character in Volume 1 exist?
And if you are so worried about what isn't safe visually, let me kindly point towards Angmar, Dol Guldur, Mordor and so many other in-game locations where literal human sacrifice, symbols drawn with blood, rotten bodies and necromancy is displayed? The game is rated for Teen and I can assure you that our teenagers probably know way more twisted and darker stuff that a barely visible 'possible' pentagram.
However, I would like to thank you for showing the shield, as I find it looking very interesting and can see it fitted with certain cosmetics.
Yeah, Angmar, Dol Guldur and Mordor have these things, but they are elements of the story, they have a proper place and exist to make the light shine the clearer in the story (i have explained a bit better of it above)
This symbol doesnt.
Originally Posted by Hallandil
It's just the ancient symbol for medicine. No doubt meant as a warden shielf meant to aid in healing/defence.
The "Snake on a Cross" symbol no different than an eye or a sword with wings when it comes to random iconography.
The version here isn't even "occult" as it ressembles the Judaism icon moreso than the Greek one.
-Even still in a game that uses Norse runes, Elemental avatars of nature, Immortal creatures and talking animals... You're a bit past the point.
The greater issue is the inability to players to separate the fact that this is a ficticious world and beyond any superficial association with real world meanings and imagery.
And that there is the true detail that would irritate Tolkien so, NOT the risk unorthodox and "pagan" (barf at that idiotic word) symbols dare being present in adaptations.
As Fullmetal Alchemist is heavily influenced by ancient chemistry and medicine, it's no doubt inspired by the Nehushtan/Caduceus
It may reflect Nehushtan as sometimes it´s represented by a snake on a cross, but you are forgetting the pentagram. But say to me, what does nehushtan have to do with this game?
Or full metal alchemist?
Originally Posted by TharbadThief
Oh, it looks like even the pentagram part is copied as well. I admit, I'm not that well versed in Fullmetal Alchemist, so I don't know if the pic below is fan art or from the actual series, but I do know the exact same snake+cross pattern is on the protagonist's jacket.
Also, I'm not judging .. just hope that SSG reminds their artists not to copy Adidas or Nike logos in their cosmetics, because they'd be sued yesterday.
Thanks for your reply, it seems that the symbol comes from that anime.
Originally Posted by Altair6
Implying that the ones on the shield are. Best laugh I've had all day.
Don't worry, they won't burn your eyes out or melt your brain or anything. They're just symbols appropriated by stupid people who believe in "the occult".
The pentagram was even, for a time, appropriated by Christians. In cuneiform it's a symbol for a word. Gawain has it as a symbol on his shield (Sir Gawain and the Green Knight). So, is it good or is it bad? (Assuming the question has any meaning at all.)
Sometimes a thing is just a thing.
Thanks for the reply, i didnt know about Gawain and his shield, or that Tolkien made a book about that legend.
But the pentagram of Gawain shield have a meaning, it represents the virtues of the perfect knight, the wounds of Christ and something about Mary i forgot. A symbol is just a symbol, but the purpose we gave to it , is the thing that make it good or wrong.
Also i dont like things from your world taking places in a story where they dont belong. There is no reason for it.
Originally Posted by Naurduin
I'd like some of your pipe-weed, sir.
This is the funniest #### I have read in a while.
I dont use pipe-weed, nor does it have any effect, since is just tobacco.
You may laugh as you wish, you are free. Thanks for your great contribution!! (at least it made this thread stay up longer).
Originally Posted by Rugongrod
I'm not worried about the snake on a cross. I'm more concerned that there are triangles. OMG Triangles!
Thanks for your great contribution!! (at least it made this thread stay up longer).
Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal
I thought about this and came back to look at it a second time, and I still see nothing wrong with it, on the contrary, I hope I can use it as a cosmetic. It looks cool.
I really and honestly hate it when someone brings an agenda into a game.
Agenda really???????????????????????? ????? I dont have any agenda, but you´re free to believe what you want to believe.
Originally Posted by Starsmith
...Y'all are getting really upset about a poster asking a question that turned out to be a good one. Imagery yoinked from Full Metal Alchemist probably doesn't belong in any game that isn't related to Full Metal Alchemist.
Thanks for your reply!
Originally Posted by afuturestrader
As the West celebrates the Resurrection - the East using an older calendar does so at the end of the month - many here chose to use the argumentation of choice of school children - mockery.
Personally, I have no idea if the symbol in question represents paganism, satanism or nothing at all. But placing the oldest symbol of Lucifer on or over a cross is bound to raise eyebrows. Unless of course
the serpent is placed underneath the Cross (better yet, a Crucifix) accurately representing what historically happened.
LOTRO's main strengths are its world class story, lore and world building. It has always been my impression these elements are why most remaining players are here. I find the game is much more enjoyable
as one further understands the meaning behind LOTR. Some of the responses suggest a lack of any understanding what the story is really all about.
Mr. Tolkien was a Christian. The religion he practiced would today be called Traditional Roman Catholicism. No Traditional Catholic I have ever met - and I know many - would approve of the symbol in question. Nor
would they white wash the topic as a nothing burger. Nor mock the one who raised questions.
Paganism, occultism and satanism are a serious business and should not be taken lightly. There is a reason the Old Testament Jews had to go to the pagan Romans to get their killing done.
For those who might like to learn more about the symbolism behind LOTR a large number of resources exist. One good starting place might be to search for Joseph Pearce in reference to Lord of the Rings.
Hope that helps some.
The symbol raised by the OP is out of character for LOTR whether placed in LOTRO innocuously or not.
The overall discussion veers very close to all sorts of community rules issues for the forums, but we've read the thread and will take a look at that art in the near future. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
Originally Posted by afuturestrader
Member
Responses to page 1
True, thanks
