T-3 and above

[Curhadbor]

Too much time has gone by. RK's are now totally 100% 2nd class citizens of Lotro. Perhaps I give them too much credit.

[Tullkas]

Too much time has gone by. RK's are now totally 100% 2nd class citizens of Lotro. Perhaps I give them too much credit.

There have been Many threads on the state of RKs and many suggestions, after Many month's we got a 1-2% (maybe) damage boost with the change to Epic Conc. But it is no where near it should be. Maybe if Epic hit for 3-4 times the current amount OR was an AOE that would be a good step. But as of now RKs are not wanted in T3 and above for their DPS at all, IF brought they are a carry...

[Kander]

There have been Many threads on the state of RKs and many suggestions, after Many month's we got a 1-2% (maybe) damage boost with the change to Epic Conc. But it is no where near it should be. Maybe if Epic hit for 3-4 times the current amount OR was an AOE that would be a good step. But as of now RKs are not wanted in T3 and above for their DPS at all, IF brought they are a carry...

TBH I'd say fire should be the line buffed to make it viable, and even desirable due to armour and fire mit debuffs as it used to be back in throne/abyss/anvil. They were worse dpsers than all others but they had some good AOE and decent debuffs to have a guaranteed spot in a raid. I would buff fire by giving it default + 2 pulses and a higher damage on fiery ridicule, writ, scathing mockery and essence of flame along with a fire damage over time buff across all skills and it would be pretty much useful and good for raids, even if not the best dps itself, a good dps given DNF and debuffs. Point is not having best dps, but rather being a good pick for a raid group. With those changes rk would be a good pick.

Lightning in my opinion is a really independent and selfish traitline in the sense that it doesn't give any important buff/help to the group and it is barely affected by other classes debuffs and buffs. Red line offers a damage increase to all classes with armour debuff and hunters help with fire mit debuff. Also benefit more from LM fire mits debuffs. I think if they manage to make lightning viable for end game environment it's either gonna be no rks or all dps as rks. I think just buffing fire line is a better option, lightning atm is actually pretty strong for soloing and landscape, it's just not good for raids, then just make fire be better for raids, a moderate red line buff wouldn't outdps lightning and still be desirable in raids, except maybe particularly remmorchant boss 2-4 where all dps required is done in 30s and AC sets all mits to 0 anyways.

[MimDerZwerg]

Yellow is quite okay - it's similar to blue line on hunter.
More movement and less damage.
Very good for woe of the willow or AM or other 3/6man.

---

Indeed red line needs to be changed.

For a competive red line there should be 2 things changed:

Increase Tale of fire from 1% pre tier to 5% per tier which gives 25% overall boost.
Make Combustion spread all DoTs.

Also LI could get some more fire legacies to buff fire damage.

Easy to implement.
Rest is quite fun to play since you need to keep up all dots and regenerate attunement.

[Curhadbor]

is needed. that would fix both red and yellow. LM, Bear, etc, does not give support to tactical.

[Tullkas]

is needed. that would fix both red and yellow. LM, Bear, etc, does not give support to tactical.

Agree 100%%%

[Gertes]

Do you guys know that the loremaster already boosts the red Rk dmg by a lot?
Benediction of the Raven reduces fire mitigation by 10-20%
Sticky Tar -10% fire Mitigation
Warding Knowledge + 10% incoming tactical damage.
All those effects are aoe, the bear, for example, is just a single target skill.

The only class that benefits more from an Lm is the Hunter.

[Curhadbor]

Do you guys know that the loremaster already boosts the red Rk dmg by a lot?
Benediction of the Raven reduces fire mitigation by 10-20%
Sticky Tar -10% fire Mitigation
Warding Knowledge + 10% incoming tactical damage.
All those effects are aoe, the bear, for example, is just a single target skill.

The only class that benefits more from an Lm is the Hunter.

You are right about the +10% tactical increase AOE. But the mits you refer too are not buffs.

[Gertes]

You are right about the +10% tactical increase AOE. But the mits you refer too are not buffs.

Not sure if you trolling? The Mitigation reduction on your target also buffs your damage quite substantial, even more so than the +10% inc damage in most cases.

[Curhadbor]

Not sure if you trolling? The Mitigation reduction on your target also buffs your damage quite substantial, even more so than the +10% inc damage in most cases.

No, I am saying that if you are supposed to be a high DPS class and you are now a low DPS class, buffs will help you gain recognition as being a better DPS class. Mits help of course the damage, but won't get you asked to do T-3'and above. And if a LM is onboard, then who is he going to help? The lower DPS toons or the higher DPS physical types? It's a fact that RK's are not asked hardly ever to do T3-s and above as DPS. And healers are rarely asked because RK's were nerfed there as well.

[Gertes]

is needed. that would fix both red and yellow. LM, Bear, etc, does not give support to tactical.

My point was that this argument of you makes not much sence.
Of course, the Rk needs DPS Buffs, but this has nothing to do with a lack of support. The red Rk already gets a lot of support, this is not the issue.
Loremaster can and support all DPS classes at the same time.

[Hephburz-2]

And healers are rarely asked because RK's were nerfed there as well.

RK healers were not "nerfed" outside of fates stone, which we can all agree, was OP. They remain the best ST healer in the game, with some of the best defensive cooldowns any healer can offer. The problem is, they offer no-offensive support that can rival Bears or Minstrels. RK heals are just not needed because the support the other healers provide is more needed.

[Kander]

No, I am saying that if you are supposed to be a high DPS class and you are now a low DPS class, buffs will help you gain recognition as being a better DPS class. Mits help of course the damage, but won't get you asked to do T-3'and above. And if a LM is onboard, then who is he going to help? The lower DPS toons or the higher DPS physical types? It's a fact that RK's are not asked hardly ever to do T3-s and above as DPS. And healers are rarely asked because RK's were nerfed there as well.

Out of curiousity... which physical class buffs does exist that doesn't apply for rk too apart from the mitigation ones?
LM Bear is ranged + melee 10% = 10% tactical from warding lore which is also aoe.
All captain buffs are applied the same way to both tactical and physical classes as they are all +x% outgoing damage.
Burglar is again the same for tactical and physical.
All other debuffs are just mit reductions iirc, which btw fire rk benefits massively as with passive debuffs + LM, fire rk plays against 0% mit the whole fight on all targets. Only class that benefits more is Hunter by being able to switch from physical to fire damage depending on fight.


Unless what you mean is just passive buff damage of RK, which again would put us in the same problem, yellow rk damage is lightning, no other class debuffs or benefits from lightning rk so it's either no rk at all in raid or only rks in raid. I would honestly say buffing lightning further would only create some kind of unbalance, just fix red, it's more suited for end game environment.

And the healing part... rks were not that nerfed, heal output is still best for ST and bubbles are really good. RK just has some problems with utility in heals, but still many groups use rks for heal in end game.

[Zahu]

Anyone that does not see that runekeeper needs some kind of further buffing in all trees (yellow, red and blue) for top tier end level, is probably not playing top tier end level or not playing lotro at all.

[Hephburz-2]

Out of curiousity... which physical class buffs does exist that doesn't apply for rk too apart from the mitigation ones?
LM Bear is ranged + melee 10% = 10% tactical from warding lore which is also aoe.

Bog-Lurker is +5% incoming ranged critical chance on the target (hunter / warden javelin skill exclusive).

All captain buffs are applied the same way to both tactical and physical classes as they are all +x% outgoing damage.

Blade Brother's Call (Red Line Captain) is a stacking +% buff to themselves and their blade-brother, but it is only melee/ranged damage (not tactical).
Master of War captain trait allows the Captains Blade Brother to crit (when the captain crits with inspire or shadows lament) on their next melee/ranged skill (again, not tactical).

All reasons why an Rk will never be a Red Captains Blade-Brother.

Burglar is again the same for tactical and physical.
All other debuffs are just mit reductions iirc, which btw fire rk benefits massively as with passive debuffs + LM, fire rk plays against 0% mit the whole fight on all targets. Only class that benefits more is Hunter by being able to switch from physical to fire damage depending on fight.

Red Champion; Devastating Strike = +10% Melee incoming damage.
Warden Class Essence; +5% incoming Melee damage.

Quite frankly, tactical dps gets shafted so much by comparison to the amount of buffs there are for physical/ranged/melee.