Vigilant Roar is an empty skill now

[GeorgeBaggy]

This was a dumb thread I made before even logging into the game after the patch. Forget about it.

[BinaryTertiary]

so basically the same as pretty much every single class has? a few skills that arent useful outside their lines....


...whats the issue?

[Joedangod]

I mean, it does damage and works fine as a button filler between thrashes. Not really any issue with it.

[Loox]

I mean, it does damage and works fine as a button filler between thrashes. Not really any issue with it.

UMMM, 2 skill credits for a taunt that we didn't have that cost of before if you were not a blue tree spec. Which takes away from 1-2 skills in other trees.

A small damage buff from U30 cost 2+% of your total skill points if you were at cap and wanted to keep that taunt. (at it's lowest level)

[Omen_Kaizer]

UMMM, 2 skill credits for a taunt that we didn't have that cost of before if you were not a blue tree spec. Which takes away from 1-2 skills in other trees.

A small damage buff from U30 cost 2+% of your total skill points if you were at cap and wanted to keep that taunt. (at it's lowest level)

Both red and yellow specs, which ought to dip 4 tiers into blue for Armor Crush, have the wiggle room to drop 1 rank of filler trait to get that. No real cost for the added functionality of having another filler skill for red bear who seems to be pulling more dps purely in bear form atm and needs it.

Procs and buffs are nice though, I like procs and buffs.

[Joedangod]

UMMM, 2 skill credits for a taunt that we didn't have that cost of before if you were not a blue tree spec. Which takes away from 1-2 skills in other trees.

Red doesn't want the forced taunt at all in most cases and yellow would only trait it situationally. Overall seems like a win.

[Loox]

Both red and yellow specs, which ought to dip 4 tiers into blue for Armor Crush, have the wiggle room to drop 1 rank of filler trait to get that. No real cost for the added functionality of having another filler skill for red bear who seems to be pulling more dps purely in bear form atm and needs it.

Procs and buffs are nice though, I like procs and buffs.

I had to lower 1 tier of "hardened heart" (t2/3) to get the taunt (t1/5)" so I lost 50% of the wrath regen from the skill.

[laughatdo0m]

I had to lower 1 tier of "hardened heart" (t2/3) to get the taunt (t1/5)" so I lost 50% of the wrath regen from the skill.

You can easily get the 1 point of Vigilant Roar without losing anything important in blue. What kind of trait line are you looking at?

[Loox]

You can easily get the 1 point of Vigilant Roar without losing anything important in blue. What kind of trait line are you looking at?

Red line

[Joedangod]

Red line

Why are you sabotaging your DPS in red by traiting it?

[Omen_Kaizer]

Red line

Blue traits in red spec



5/5 vit, 4/5 biting edge, 3/3 hearten wrath
1/5 vigilant in whatever niche build where you're red and need a taunt
1/1 rending blows, then 1/5 slam instead of the normal filler 2/5 since you shouldnt be using slam as a red beorning anyway. Or 0/5 if you need biting edge taunt.
3/3 armor crush

[laughatdo0m]

Blue traits in red spec



5/5 vit, 4/5 biting edge, 3/3 hearten wrath
1/5 vigilant in whatever niche build where you're red and need a taunt
1/1 rending blows, then 1/5 slam instead of the normal filler 2/5 since you shouldnt be using slam as a red beorning anyway. Or 0/5 if you need biting edge taunt.
3/3 armor crush

Exactly this. The only thing you'd lose is some damage on slam but you shouldn't be using slam as a red beorning anyway... these two points in blue line are just filler to get all the way down to armorcrush which is very important for your red damage.

Red Beorning generally puts 18 (36) points in blue, 19 points in red, 20 (40) points in yellow in order to have maxed out Armour Crush and Debilitating Bees. Those Blue and Yellow points are compulsory to maximize your own damage (and everyone else's). You could make arguments to only go 4/5 in Debilitating Bees and drop Serrated Edged to max out your Thrash Damage and Melee Damage traits in red for bearform-only DPSing, but thats about it as far as options go.

And as Joedangod said, why would you want to turn a free damage skill into a force taunt as a dps class? Just use it untraited in your rotation for free additional damage every 10s.


For Yellow Beorning, it would make more sense to pick this up sometimes, but even then its not hard
The compulsory bluetree traits as a yellow beorning are generally:
Row 1: 5/5 vitality 2/5 opposing presence (filler), 3/3 hardened heart
Row 2: nothing
Row 3: 5/5 weakening blow, 1/1 rending blows
Row 4: 3/3 Armour Crush

If you really want to pick up the force taunt, you just drop one of the filler points from opposing presence to put one point into vigilant roar (or drop 4 points from weakening blow to get both 1/5 vigilant roar and 5/5 opposing presence if you need two taunts)

[Loox]

Silly me. I was actually trying to make use of "claw" legacies.
This would only make sense because the race/class is marketed as damage/support from character creation.
What a disappointment and confusing mess. Yes, I'm being polite.

If you are not training beyond 4th row "19 points in red tree" where does the damage part come into play?

I don't disagree with the advice, just the outcome.

[Omen_Kaizer]

I agree with you that it's weird the optimum damage you can do as a beorning--net or solo--comes from a red rainbow build to grab two strong debuffs in the other lines rather than from a true red build. It's goofy, it's counterintuitive, it necessarily means the red spec is poorly designed.

The deep red trails are extremely underwhelming if you read the tooltips. And Execute still needs to crit and to basically do what aftershocks does for a yellow RK. The damage comes from shallow red traits, inherent red abilities like expose and red maul, legacies on a 2H, and the Armor Crush and Bees debuffs.

With U30 we're even currently at a point where staying in bear form the whole time and threading Thrash between basically each skill yields more damage than swapping to man for the bleeds and setting up the autocrit for Maul, which is less fun; some big bleed buffs to Slash and Biting/Serrated are warranted too.

[Loox]

I agree with you that it's weird the optimum damage you can do as a beorning--net or solo--comes from a red rainbow build to grab two strong debuffs in the other lines rather than from a true red build. It's goofy, it's counterintuitive, it necessarily means the red spec is poorly designed.

The deep red trails are extremely underwhelming if you read the tooltips. And Execute still needs to crit and to basically do what aftershocks does for a yellow RK. The damage comes from shallow red traits, inherent red abilities like expose and red maul, legacies on a 2H, and the Armor Crush and Bees debuffs.

With U30 we're even currently at a point where staying in bear form the whole time and threading Thrash between basically each skill yields more damage than swapping to man for the bleeds and setting up the autocrit for Maul, which is less fun; some big bleed buffs to Slash and Biting/Serrated are warranted too.

Only going to 4th row on the trait lines doesn't open up any claw LI legacies. 6 skill point traits that don't crit makes it a useless LI legacy and skill (obviously I'm just now catching up).

So, debuff, debuff, debuff, thrash, thrash, thrash, maul .. rinse and repeat? So where is the "damage" part I paid premium for?

[Joedangod]

Only going to 4th row on the trait lines doesn't open up any claw LI legacies. 6 skill point traits that don't crit makes it a useless LI legacy and skill (obviously I'm just now catching up).

So, debuff, debuff, debuff, thrash, thrash, thrash, maul .. rinse and repeat? So where is the "damage" part I paid premium for?

Not really sure what the complaint is here? Red Beorning can do pretty solid DPS right now, it's just a bit weird in that it focuses on traiting blue/yellow over red. It's not quite a competitive DPSer in raid situations but the LI revamp is probably going to shake that side of things up a fair bit so we kinda have to wait and see.

[Loox]

Not really sure what the complaint is here? Red Beorning can do pretty solid DPS right now, it's just a bit weird in that it focuses on traiting blue/yellow over red. It's not quite a competitive DPSer in raid situations but the LI revamp is probably going to shake that side of things up a fair bit so we kinda have to wait and see.

I'm simply pointing out this class/race is actively being marketed even to this day as a damage/support class at character creation.

"They focus their wrath while in bear form, choosing to deal grievous blows or bolster their own resolve."

Is it complaining if you ask where the sales pitch is derived from? This is not a FTP class.

Isn't it acting responsibly to ask what you're getting for your $$ ?

I will admit though that hearing my premium (damage/support) class "not quite a competitive DPSer" and "kinda have to wait and see" are disheartening.

[laughatdo0m]

I'm simply pointing out this class/race is actively being marketed even to this day as a damage/support class at character creation.

"They focus their wrath while in bear form, choosing to deal grievous blows or bolster their own resolve."

Is it complaining if you ask where the sales pitch is derived from? This is not a FTP class.

Isn't it acting responsibly to ask what you're getting for your $$ ?

I will admit though that hearing my premium (damage/support) class "not quite a competitive DPSer" and "kinda have to wait and see" are disheartening.

I agree with you that its silly that they haven't changed the in-game class descriptions to match how they are actually played. Warden players especially share the same disillusionment. Right now if you make a new character you will see:
Beorning - Damage/Support
Burglar - Support
Captain - Support
Champion - Damage
Guardian - Defence
Hunter - Damage
Loremaster - Support
Minstrel - Healer
Runekeeper - Damage/Healer
Warden - Defence

But in reality (in the current metagame), these should be:
Beorning - Healer
Burglar - Damage/Support
Captain - Defence/Support
Champion - Damage
Guardian - Defence
Hunter - Damage
Loremaster - Support
Minstrel - Healer
Runekeeper - Damage/Healer
Warden - Damage
(Warden and Beorning could have "Defence" listed as well, but that is not what they are brought into a group for 90% of the time)

Semantically speaking, the statement "They focus their wrath while in bear form, choosing to deal grievous blows or bolster their own resolve." is still not wrong; red Beornings do more damage with higher wrath (because 15% bonus crit chance for being at 100 wrath) and they do that in bear form (red damage rotation is almost exclusively bear form now).

The reason you don't put trait points in red is because everything besides "Thrash Damage", "Critical Chance", "Bleed Damage", "Melee Damage" and sometimes "Serrated Edge" is pretty meaningless.

"Any Advantage" can hardly ever be used in solo content, and is pretty lackluster in group content -- plus you don't use slam in your red rotation anyway, generally.
"Execute", "Final Strike" and "Moment of Opportunity" are worthless traits - they will do more harm than good to your overall DPS (losing 100% wrath for a single hit that doesn't do any damage anymore is awful).
"Lumber" can be grabbed for situational CC, but you put points into yellow anyway for Debilitating Bees so its better to grab Takedown as your CC skill. This can be traited as a backup if you need a bunch of stuns.
"Enraging Sacrifice" is hardly ever useful. This should be a yellow trait realistically. Healing Beorning was the only trait line that would use this anyway in meme damage reduction setups.
"Turn the Tides" only does damage if your target has corruptions. With how infrequent that is, this is pretty much a waste of trait points. Even if your target has corruptions that pop up fairly frequently, you really wouldn't want to pick this up as a damage skill.
"Crippling Stings" slow doesn't really help you all that much unless you want to kite things on landscape or PvMP. Doesn't work in raids.
"Composure" is a somewhat dead trait for Red Beornings. With a maxed out LI and "Improved Hearten" from yellow line you heal for about the same (assuming you have about ~500k morale in fairly good raid gear). This should be in the blue tree instead.
"Call to Wild" - Does next to nothing for you on a 2m cooldown. You should be able to maintain max wrath (unless you're using execute) without relying on a 2m cooldown to help you.
"Broad Thrash" - Gives every 3rd use of thrash a 5 target frontal. Technically has smaller range than your single target thrashes so if you're on the edge of max melee range in bear form your biggest hit don't even land with this traited. Likewise, this is only useful if you're able to group up multiple targets for every 3rd thrash (and keep them in the small frontal range).

[Loox]

" don't put trait points in red is because everything .... is pretty meaningless " is what I'm learning from this experience. That includes "claw" Li legacies, offensive stats, offensive essences, offensive relics and more

Meh

Several things within the class are broken. Beornings are really healers. There might be a fix someday in the future.

You clarified exactly what I was feeling, Beorning is not a damage class regardless of what the creation pitch is.