Changes to Motes/Ember/Figments

[Belnavar]

Thank you for the detailed explanation, Raninia. Without question, some of this should have been included in the original messaging on this, and even now there are many things that seem unclear or up in the air. I think it would make sense to consult players more on major changes like this, as many of the sources of confusion might have been raised, and sources of conflict potentially avoided. I do appreciate you taking the time to rectify things with your post, etc., however.

Some comments:

The purpose of Embers was to act as a way to mitigate being unlucky with RNG. However, what it turned into was the fastest and best way to get the gear. We don't want players to run things that aren't the content the gear comes from as their primary way of getting that gear.

During the previous raid cycle, players ran the Remmorchant raid as the primary source for gear. While some debate the approach taken, it was arguably a major success, with numerous pug groups daily on top of what raiding kins did. People ran boss 1 for guaranteed class-appropriate gear. People ran side bosses for lower chance random class gear. And, of course, others ran the entire raid on various tiers for gear (and achievement). A barter option was added later, allowing the unlucky to fill gaps or newer/returning players to catch up (though was deed-gated by tier completion, and since the raid was difficult on tier 2+, it was less common for players to get this). With much later content (including upgraded raid gear), the barter requirements were reduced. This approach was, in my view, the best way to tackle the issue of encouraging players to run the content for raids, while gradually opening up gearing options later.

Further, Stairs was run regularly (indeed daily) for essences and Embers (from disenchanting gear). The current stuff isn't run as regularly, because the effort required to run them for the rewards you get just doesn't make a lot of sense for many people. Add the clearly overtuned fights, or forced group compositions, or the notorious RNG system, and you get more at the heart of why people choose Ember-barter options over running the content.

For Amdan Dammul, players primarily focused on acquiring deed completions and then bought their jewellery sets with Embers. One of the major reasons for this was that the barter option was added significantly earlier. Players will always opt for the easier option if one is available, even if there is a grind associated with that, because RNG is often a very frustrating experience. At the end of the day, players are here to have fun. While a certain amount of grind is necessary in a game of this scale, and RNG can have its moments, repeated frustration is more likely to make me log off and take a break from the game.

Storvagun is a good example of this. Instead of a guaranteed source of reward, we were faced not only with the RNG of getting a drop in the first place, but the additional RNG of seeing if we got the 1 of 4 variants (from a total of 12) we actually wanted/needed. Then multiply that by 2, since we have two slots for those Bracelets. Compare this to the 3 cloaks or 2 pocket items for the other seasonal instances, which were bad enough in terms of RNG grind, and you just end up with an unfun experience, where players who weren't around feel like they missed out, and many players who were around and participated as equally as others also feel they missed out, thanks to RNG.

Returning to the Embers change itself, my concern, and I think this will be echoed by others, is that instead of encouraging a certain kind of behaviour (which might be achieved by offering barterable coins or multi-selection boxes, since getting random unwanted loot is often even more disappointing than getting none at all), you are opting to discourage the barter option by increasing the grind (while retaining lootbox sources, which inevitably will mean an increased perception of "Pay to Win"). Yes, there may be more options to gain Embers (noting we are also losing one), but if the prices don't increase dramatically, then how will it discourage players from using the guaranteed Ember farming method? And if prices do increase, upwards of 3x as you state later, how is this anything other than increasing the grind? Many players will remain unlucky with RNG, but instead of grinding, for example, 5k Embers to plug that gap, they now have to grind upwards of 15k Embers. That is not a fun experience (which is on top of the not fun experience of not getting the drops in the raid). Sure, there may be more sources of Embers, but even if we get 2x the Embers, but the prices are 3x higher, it is an increased grind, no matter what way it's presented.

Removing the option to disenchant gear also takes away from the kind of "runner up prize" feeling we get when we don't acquire the gear we want. It's disappointing, but at least we get the consolation of acquiring some Embers towards acquiring the loot we do want. This directly addresses the issue of players being unlucky that you highlighted. Now, however, players who get unlucky don't get a consolation prize at all, and no token amount towards their eventual gear barter. This is a backwards move, in my opinion.

One additional concern that I've noted from raiders is that some players are selling access (either with real cash, which is an obvious no-no, or in-game currency) to raid tier completions, which cheapens the experience and is obviously counter-productive to the intent of the SSG team here (and a good gameplay experience as a whole). Aside from potential account disciplinary options, any methods to tackle this behaviour might help get us closer to the proposed goal.

Figments will still be available from Festivals, and we'll be adding additional sources in 32, such as with the Reward Track. We'll do landscape quests in the future, not sure if any of those will reward Figments in 32.

I have some very significant concerns about this. Currently players can acquire between 2.5k and 3.5k Embers per week (depending on whether they do the Craft option, which isn't a viable option long-term, imo), and can convert those to Figments. They can also convert Motes (with lots of options to acquire Motes from older content, if they so desire, but they are not forced to go back and grind old content for Figments).

Festivals award a relatively small and finite amount of Figments, ranging from 400 - 1000 each per tier of completion of the wrapper chain, and sometimes from the wrapper itself. The Spring Festival currently awards 400, 500, and 600, plus an additional 500 from the wrapper. Most are similar. I believe the Harvest one is more generous, with 1k a pop. These are nice sources of additional Figments currently, but the problem is: a) they are time-based events (so many players will miss out; b) they require participating daily for almost the entirety of the event to actually get the maximum Figment reward (so many players will get significantly less, as they cannot log in and grind daily, especially during holiday periods where they may be spending time with family, etc.); and c) they are, while (mostly) enjoyable to me, tedious to others, especially in comparison to being able to run the current end-game content (which is new and fresh -- the festivals aren't always).

We currently have five vendors that offer items for sale for Figments, which come and go over time. Some older items are relatively cheap (1k Figments), but many are much more expensive, at 4k, 6k, or even 7,500k. And there are a lot of them. While not every player will want to collect every cosmetic, there are many players who collect the pets and horses (indeed, we have whole collection panels encouraging this behaviour), or housing items (noting we are receiving new housing with U32), so the idea of increasing the prices on these, even marginally, while removing the current repeatable sources of currency acquisition is, quite frankly, offputting (to put it mildly). Again, it seems like making things more grindy for the sake of it, and that is not a fun experience.

While you do state there will be additional sources of Figments in U32 and beyond (which definitely should have been mentioned in the original post), if these are finite sources, it's very probable players will run out quickly, whereas the catalogue of rewards to barter for with them only grows. If the landscape quests for Figments don't make it into U32, then are the only sources the Reward Track and Festivals? Sure, Spring Festival is approaching soon, but at the current values (which I would presume you would tweak upwards in light of this), we can get a maximum of 2k Figments if we grind the festival daily (or close to that). That is significantly less than what we can acquire in a week with arguably less intensive grinding of Embers/Motes, with a lot more variety to boot. Further, when the Spring Festival ends, this source goes away entirely for several months, leaving only the Reward Track.

If the Reward Track operates the way most expect, the Figments rewards will presumably come at certain points along the track (let's imagine, for example, ranks 25, 50, 75, and 100). Even if these are large amounts (let's imagine 5k at ranks 25 and 75, and 10k and ranks 50 and 100), players need to grind significantly to even get to those ranks, as opposed to running existing weeklies (which are already grindier in some respects than the Minas Morgul equivalents). The alternative is to add Figments more regularly along the track, but in lower amounts, but even this means substantially lower acquisition compared to what is possible currently.

If the quest content does make it into U32, and you add more sources in the Epic, etc., this is good, but will we see Figments added to older quests and Epic books (assuming you don't want this cosmetic currency to become a largely end-game only option), and if so, how will you address the likely issue of players having already completed that content? Will Figment grants be backdated in those cases?

I can see some potential value in decoupling Embers/Motes from Figments, as it will mean players interested in the cosmetic items won't be forced to convert their "end-game currency" and thus don't have to choose between gear and cosmetics. The problem is only if the method of acquisition becomes so much less, and so much more finite, that actually getting those cosmetic items becomes a major problem (if not an outright impossibility). For example, current end-game barters (for Silver Coins of Gundabad) have various cosmetic options, some of which are rather expensive to get. But the method for acquiring Silver Coins is repeatable (even though one-time grants jumpstart the process initially from questing). I don't see why a similar model can't be taken for Figments (though bearing in mind the much larger back catalogue of items on those vendors). I would particularly hate to see newer players come into the game and find the grind for these items was inflated so substantially that the experience just isn't fun anymore.

-Bel

[Belechael]

Wow, just wow... We wanted more communication with the Devs, but almost everything Raninia wrote is against what I consider fun. And from what I read most of the posters lean that way as well.

Well, it has been fun, but all good things must come to an end.

[Neinda]

I am starting to think giving this information out was to serve as a distraction for the reward track. I still don't understand why traceries are level gated and why we have to spend all of our time trying to get a specific tracery to drop so that our weapons will work this time next year.

Armor via embers is now going down the same rabbit hole. The only way I can see to be successful in the future is not by purchasing VIP or expansions, it is by farming lotro points so I can buy upgrades in the store. Game content really is not useful any longer.

This is a game that always listened to the player feedback in the past. I really don't understand why that has changed. Making VIP and purchasing expansions with money useful would go a lot farther than making us buy armor and weapons unless you plan to stop the lotro point farms.

I really don't see the bulk of the player base paying for expansions, paying for VIP, paying for seasons, paying for armor, paying for weapon upgrades. I don't play mobile games because they cost a small fortune. They are not worth it. Having to pay for everything I need to run an instance and only being able to run that instance once in a while because of locks leaves little else to do in game. There are many people I know who log on and run the instances until they hit the locks and you don't see them again until the same time the following week.

I am already stuck with a level 60 who cannot change his weapon because of lack of currency. I guess now I will have my one level cap in the same situation with no level appropriate armor and a weapon with a use by date. I really don't know how to tackle this or what is the best method. I wish my VIP was worth something other than mail and a subscriber box. The motes do nothing to help my lower level characters and will be worthless for a 140. There needs to be a way to get traceries other than a random drop in a farmed instance.

Let me at least convert my embers and motes to the currency of my choice. The figments give us things that will stay around for a while. The embers are too difficult to obtain and motes are useless for level cap characters and lower level characters.

[Crell_1]

"With Motes no longer being barterable, we can also add more catch up things to it" --If the intention is to increase the routes of catch up mechanics with this change as well as the LI changes .. Why do we have a vendor for the 6man gear but not a vendor for the 3man gear? The 6man is newer than the 3mans. The 3man also occupies gear slots that the 6man does not.

I'm concerned that you said "Embers being barterable into Motes and Figments never made a lot of sense to me" -- As this has never been the way it worked. We've never been able to barter Embers into motes. We've been able to barter both 'gear currencies' into a single cosmetic currency known as 'figments'.

This to me suggests you haven't taken the time to learn our past history of issues with these kinds of currency systems 'Ash of Gorgoroth" and the pitfalls that lead to where we are now. Like LIs I feel you're swinging the pendulum back to some of the problematic issues without learning any of the lessons we did last time.

[Yalcrab]

We can certainly debate this, but I don't think that's what the end result will be. If we find that players can't acquire gear consistently by playing the game, we'll adjust to improve that.

I too have been around essentially since the beginning and I have to say that the one thing that has really only slightly been touched on in this thread is the Fun factor of the game. I would have to say that Level 130 was a very nice change of pace. We had multiple instances and Raids where everyday there were actually PUG groups were advertised nearly all day. More people were able to participate in end-game fun than ever before and it was a blast. People were helping others learn the instances and participation seemed like it was at an all-time high. Isn't that what the game should be about?

Why was that? Simple, the normal End-Game Raiders who normally exist in their own groups (no offence) and get their gear within those groups actually had incentive to reach out and help the greater population because they were earning embers from disenchanting loot they couldn't use anymore.

You say you don't think the end result will be less participation, but I say the game will go back to its divided nature where End-Game Raiders get their gear and stay within their group, while those of us struggling to do PUGs without their help will also eventually give up trying. Back to less participation and in my opinion less Fun.

[subadar]

despite what the devs think, people will always follow the path of least resistance to get what they want. usually in ways they never forsee.

want people to play the current content to get current gear?

how about fixing the loot tables? what exactly do we do with the gear thats useless to us? and believe me i got alot of useless gear!

or when in a 3 man all the loot that drops is irrelevant to any of the 3 classes in the instance?

basically that makes doing instances no fun and a waste of game time, granted games are a waste of time period but it should at least be fun and not an exercise in frustration.

just fix the LAG so new players are not instantly turned off and maybe LOTRO could see some growth from new players.

i saw a funny you tuber who was going to feature LOTRO in a why people quit MMO's series but since LOTRO would not launch from steam and after doing all the work arounds he just gave up, REASON #1

[ceoligar]

I don't post that often on the forums, but have to share my thoughts about the figment changes from a completionist point of few. A few questions for SSG if they are reading this:

1. What is the reason for removing the option to convert embers for figments? Would it do any harm if people have the option to spend their extra embers on figments which are only used for cosmetics? What problem does it fix that people will be less likely to get cosmetics? Wouldn't players that like cosmetics be playing your game more earning embers if you keep the option to convert embers for figments?

2. If there is an issue that I am not aware of, wouldn't it be better to remove figments all together? You can make it much easier for completionist and casual players if the cosmetics are added to the ember vendor. Then you can simply reward players with pick-a-cosmetic box whenever they completed a festival weekly and everyone's happy.

[Crell_1]

You keep pointing to potential additional sources such as the reward track. We've yet to hear much of anything about the reward track. Is it still on target for U32? Its clearly a big factor in itemization and other decisions. It would be beneficial if we could get ahold of the design documents / plans for that. Hopefully they're more fleshed out than this was so we can discuss it as a wider community before its finalized.

[Belnavar]

I am starting to think giving this information out was to serve as a distraction for the reward track. I still don't understand why traceries are level gated and why we have to spend all of our time trying to get a specific tracery to drop so that our weapons will work this time next year.

I don't believe this is a distraction, but I do have significant concerns about this issue, and would go so far as to predict this will be perhaps the biggest source of player discontent when our traceries become disabled. It is, in my view, another backwards move, and one best avoided. My argument has always been that players should be motivated to get improved gear, not penalised for not having re-ground the gear they essentially already have. Sometimes it comes down to perception, but that's such an important part, because we are meaning-seeking creatures -- and regrinding the same things over and over again is, quite frankly, meaningless.

-Bel

[Ayvri]

This is definitely trickiest for players who liked to collect 'em all, but we'll keep an eye on that and see what we can do.

- We're also going to add more sources for Figments, just like are with Embers, again such as with landscape quests and the Reward Track. We'll keep an eye on how acquisition looks for those, as we want to avoid the problems that caused us to make the change for Embers.

Perhaps you could outline what those sources will be, before you remove the largest non-paid ways that people earn figments via - namely exchanging motes for figments. So far what you have outlined is that you are making changes because of how you perceive end game raiding gear - which is largely irrelevant to a section of the game's players who are focused on living a hobbit-y or dwarf-y life in Middle Earth.

It is disenfranchising to say you will add more sources without outlining them, especially when you say it immediately after you've said "we'll keep an eye on how acquisition looks for those," - you say it's not about pushing people towards loot box keys but it clearly is, otherwise what else are you going to see? The only other option people have is festivals.

There is literally a section of the game's community that only run missions to earn motes to exchange into figments, and to get other furniture / cosmetics via the mission reputation systems. You're saying that one of their primary reasons for running missions is now closed. Hardly makes sense and might not be pay to win but is certainly bordering on pay walled.

Until you add multiple ways to balance out your change, it is absolutely about pushing cosmetic / furniture fans towards loot box keys, which will not result in as many sales as you might hope, let's be real. Net result, those players will run less missions or none, and you'll make less cosmetics and furniture available via figments because you'll claim it's not popular - but who made it unpopular? - and thus the system becomes a victim of unnecessary change.

No one swapping motes out for figments is doing so to "win" at end game raiding, yet they are being penalised by this change. They're doing so to live a virtual life in a virtual world, and the "proposed" change (which is clearly set in stone before we get a say,) is shutting a door on many of the people who can't afford loot boxes or disagree with the loot box model. Instead of taking 3-4 weeks to get enough figments for one item, they now take 6+ months and likely miss the curator in the process.

Again, I put it to you - continue to allow for exchange, but if you feel 1:1 is unreasonable - make it an exchange rate rather than 1:1. 2:1 or 3:1.

Removing motes to figments entirely is making a bad change for the sake of change.


One thing I will hand your team - you do communicate better than what some people give you credit for, and kudos for that - but the horse has clearly bolted and the peasants are revolting. Throw non-raiders who like their cosmetics and furniture a bone.

[Arnenna]

"With Motes no longer being barterable, we can also add more catch up things to it" --If the intention is to increase the routes of catch up mechanics with this change as well as the LI changes .. Why do we have a vendor for the 6man gear but not a vendor for the 3man gear? The 6man is newer than the 3mans. The 3man also occupies gear slots that the 6man does not.

I'm concerned that you said "Embers being barterable into Motes and Figments never made a lot of sense to me" -- As this has never been the way it worked. We've never been able to barter Embers into motes. We've been able to barter both 'gear currencies' into a single cosmetic currency known as 'figments'.

This to me suggests you haven't taken the time to learn our past history of issues with these kinds of currency systems 'Ash of Gorgoroth" and the pitfalls that lead to where we are now. Like LIs I feel you're swinging the pendulum back to some of the problematic issues without learning any of the lessons we did last time.

Who is there to earn it from. SSG have never got it, or anywhere near got it. The players tell them and they take no notice and make one bad change after another.

I'm still waiting for the answer about lootbox embers being unrestricted. If this is genuinely about keeping the game content as the proper (as in, not what "we didn't like") way to earn gear, then why are players able to open lootboxes freely and without any kind of gating, to earn as many embers as they want for as long as they want? Will that avenue, which does exactly the same thing to content use as earning in game embers to buy gear, also be changed?

This is a directed (politely) valid question.

[bohbashum]

You missed the part where Pieces will have their prices going up.

You won't be getting several pieces easily.

I gave an example on Page 13 of this thread where basically while from 1 Weekly Quest you can get 1,500 Embers per Character a week if the Prices goes up to an example of 1 Item is 12,500 Embers you'll need 8 Characters in that 1 week for a single item for just 1 Character.

I'm also dumb.

You do know the new ember barter is live?

It's not speculation on price. The new ember gear is only 4k...

[Arnenna]

I'm also dumb.

You do know the new ember barter is live?

It's not speculation on price. The new ember gear is only 4k...

The new prices are coming with update 32. That's not live. None of the proposed changes are in effect on todays patch. The gear you buy today for 4K embers will be trash on the next lootbox/ember update - when the prices will be 2-3x higher. You won't get any embers back for them like you do now on live, and any instance/raid drops or anything you barter for in game using embers will be the same. You will be able to burn them for embers just before the patch, but the minute you log in, all the embers in your wallet will be gone, converted to motes.

The only gear that you will be able to burn to get embers back is gear that you got from inside a lootbox as a physical reward. Cosmetics will burn to figments, not embers. I guess SSG think that devaluing something that players paid for would be a step too far, or maybe against law possibly, and i think if they could get away with it, they would do that too.

[Ayshara]

"Repeatable sources of Embers will be more frequent..."

This may have been answered already, but will Crafting for Embers still be available?

[Arabani]

You keep pointing to potential additional sources such as the reward track. We've yet to hear much of anything about the reward track. Is it still on target for U32? Its clearly a big factor in itemization and other decisions. It would be beneficial if we could get ahold of the design documents / plans for that. Hopefully they're more fleshed out than this was so we can discuss it as a wider community before its finalized.

I believe we can be pretty sure that the majority of Track levels will give Scripts or Runes. There will probably be a bit of embers, a few purple-teal traceries every major cornerstone (like every 20, or 25 levels) and one or two end rewards of better quality. I do not really expect to see any cosmetics, pets, mounts, or something significant.

[Harvain]

I'm also dumb.

You do know the new ember barter is live?

It's not speculation on price. The new ember gear is only 4k...

The new prices are coming with update 32. That's not live. None of the proposed changes are in effect on todays patch. The gear you buy today for 4K embers will be trash on the next lootbox/ember update - when the prices will be 2-3x higher. You won't get any embers back for them like you do now on live, and any instance/raid drops or anything you barter for in game using embers will be the same. You will be able to burn them for embers just before the patch, but the minute you log in, all the embers in your wallet will be gone, converted to motes.

Yeah, New Prices aren't here or seen.

So I personally have not been trying to insult you or anything akin to that and hopefully didn't come off as being insulting or anything.

Only make you aware that what you are seeing both for SSG Comments + Bullroarer aren't hand in hand what is happening at the moment or a reflection of what is to come based on Current Live + Bullroarer Pricing and other elements.

[Arnenna]

I believe we can be pretty sure that the majority of Track levels will give Scripts or Runes. There will probably be a bit of embers, a few purple-teal traceries every major cornerstone (like every 20, or 25 levels) and one or two end rewards of better quality. I do not really expect to see any cosmetics, pets, mounts, or something significant.

They've even got this covered. Lots of players will be playing lower level alts with these changes, but iirc all characters contribute to the reward track to cap it out. I can't see lower level characters earning embers - ever, so I can't see how that is going to work. All I can see is more monetisation and paid bypass. It's exhausting, and not a game anymore. I have more fun doing financial quarterly reports for the local authority in work.

[Dorri_Hammerfist]

Embers:
- The purpose of Embers was to act as a way to mitigate being unlucky with RNG. However, what it turned into was the fastest and best way to get the gear. We don't want players to run things that aren't the content the gear comes from as their primary way of getting that gear. In looking at why this was happening, the disenchanting of gear from any tier of any group instance was obviously where the bulk of Embers were coming from, in a way that really pushed players to grind to maximize their time.

My dude, it shows you never in your life geared a toon in lotro to run t2+ content. It shows you never tried to get 3 pets that cost 12-17k+ figments in one season.
Your logic is just not applicable to how lotro works. The loot tables and boss chests locks toss your idea and it's implementation down the drain.

[JERH]

I'm also dumb.

You do know the new ember barter is live?

It's not speculation on price. The new ember gear is only 4k...

You mean live on BR#3? After going through 5 rounds of BR for new LIs and seeing huge changes in the last sudden patch on Friday 5 hours before BR#5 ended plus many more changes after that before going “live” I can’t take anything currently on BR except as a hint.

I guess I can check brandywine to see if that price is currently “live” after today’s patch. I doubt it but if so it’s undocumented.

EDIT: teal coffers are still 3500 and allegiance weeklies still give 500 embers on “live” servers independent of what is on the “test” server BR. Having a bit of experience on BR means that anything can change without notice including complete wipes of data.

[Blastoyz]

To be clear, that's not the intent. We still want players to get the game and get the gear. But we want y'all to play where that gear drops more, as opposed to farming easy content to get the hard gear after earning the deed.

I understand the sentiment here but when I run a 3man with friends and I'm the only one who needs a specific drop, what do they others get as rewards now? They won't get anything worthwhile which will make them less inclined to run it (let alone random people in LFF/World). Yes it used to be like this a long time ago but people aren't accustomed to that anymore, everyone always wants something now.

Also of course people just farm embers when:
1. Any adventurer gear is BiS (that everyone has access too)
2. The BiS raid gear is barterable - this is somewhat mitigated behind unlock requirements.

[Ketriana]

Until you add multiple ways to balance out your change, it is absolutely about pushing cosmetic / furniture fans towards loot box keys, which will not result in as many sales as you might hope, let's be real. Net result, those players will run less missions or none, and you'll make less cosmetics and furniture available via figments because you'll claim it's not popular - but who made it unpopular? - and thus the system becomes a victim of unnecessary change.

No one swapping motes out for figments is doing so to "win" at end game raiding, yet they are being penalised by this change. They're doing so to live a virtual life in a virtual world, and the "proposed" change (which is clearly set in stone before we get a say,) is shutting a door on many of the people who can't afford loot boxes or disagree with the loot box model. Instead of taking 3-4 weeks to get enough figments for one item, they now take 6+ months and likely miss the curator in the process.

Exactly. Raninia did not explain why there is a need to make figments significantly harder to obtain, or the reasons behind increasing the figment cost of housing decos/cosmetics, so we are left to assume this is about nothing more than attempting to push the housing/cosmetics community towards lootboxes. He states that they "expect that most players will get a bit choosier in terms of what cosmetics they prioritize." Again, why is there a need to limit the amount of cosmetic items players can earn, other than a desperate attempt to push us to lootboxes?

The limited availability of the curator and seasonal vendors was frustrating enough, even when I was able to keep motes banked for quick conversion. Without that option, I'm having nightmares of grinding festivals ad nauseum only to have the curator disappear a day or two before getting enough figments for the item I am after... how does that sound even remotely fun?

This is cosmetic fluff we are talking about. What problem is it causing if I choose to run missions for motes to convert to figments so I can dress my hobbit as a lumberjack, or fill my premium house with pets? Those activities were what I enjoyed most in Lotro, and the cosmetic rewards made tedious, grindy content like missions worthwhile to me. If you remove my reward for doing grindy content, I simply stop doing that content, which makes me less engaged with the game, with less reason to login. I know a lot of people with similar playstyles feel the same way. I have no interest in raiding or getting the best gear, so cosmetics and housing were my main reason for playing (aside from the story).

This change will alienate casual players who play mostly for roleplay, housing, cosmetics, etc. As someone who returned to Lotro after a long absence and has spent a lot of time grinding cosmetic and housing items to "catch up," it is enough of a challenge to do so, even with converting motes from missions. Eliminating the conversion will be especially frustrating to new or returning players when they are met with dozens of items they would like, and little means of obtaining them without resorting to lootboxes. Not to mention it will sap all the fun out of festivals, which will become a necessary time-limited grind that must be done on as many characters as possible. If that had been the case when I returned to the game, I can guarantee that I would not have played nearly as much as I have, nor spent nearly the amount on Lotro points/VIP/expansions that I did.

[bohbashum]

You mean live on BR#3? After going through 5 rounds of BR for new LIs and seeing huge changes in the last sudden patch on Friday 5 hours before BR#5 ended plus many more changes after that before going “live” I can’t take anything currently on BR except as a hint.

I guess I can check brandywine to see if that price is currently “live” after today’s patch. I doubt it but if so it’s undocumented.

EDIT: teal coffers are still 3500 and allegiance weeklies still give 500 embers on “live” servers independent of what is on the “test” server BR. Having a bit of experience on BR means that anything can change without notice including complete wipes of data.

The HoR barter is at Steepstep on live.

[bohbashum]

The new prices are coming with update 32. That's not live. None of the proposed changes are in effect on todays patch. The gear you buy today for 4K embers will be trash on the next lootbox/ember update

What are you on about? Have you been on the game? Go the Steepset.

It's the HoR T3 teals for 4k.

The prices may change, your right, but on live, thats a good price.

[Braer]

Instance Locks, Ill-Favoured Chest rolls and Daily Chest Locks were put into limit just how much players could earn gear and currency from "the content" where the better gear resided.

With the first hurdle in gaining loot based on a class's main stat we immediately start off with potential gains in gear that'd be more useful to another class, if we limit ourselves to just one role. And with the new LI system how many of us have capped out our multi-role LIs that we had gotten used too, still grinding enhancements for the initial pair or already spent a bunch of MC on them. Maybe put the secondary role gear in our vaults for now, they aren't going to get you the Embers for your main role now are they?

Lets stick with the primary role gearing for now. With an RNG based system the initial returns, ignoring the above main stat issue, has us with specific targets of seven armour pieces and eight jewels/pocket to fulfil. Maybe a weapon or two and a shield for some. With blank canvas our potential to find a piece we need starts off with the best of chances. The next time we come along our chances to find an upgrade is slightly diminished because we already have one piece, getting another of the same piece and stats not really a gain, unless a jewel piece. Vault it for now, for that alt role you'll get around to some day? As we proceed, every successful pull from the next chest that comes your way reduces your chances on the next run. As each success is followed by longer periods of repeats or another class/role piece it gets disheartening to say the least. Now all the time your are doing these instances for gear you are no longer doing the Ember content that would fill in those gaps. So why bother to continue instances at ever decreasing chances when you'd be better off doing the Ember weeklies and barter for the specific required pieces. Think page drops on the level 50 class book quests, easy start - the final pages drops dragging on and on when no longer tradable, and recently to be repeated with the final needed traceries. A heap of diminishing returns grinding you down, not fun.

If we are to play the content for gear instead of bartering for it then you have to dismantle all the contrived means put in over the years to limit "farming" that gear. Alternatively use similar barter options put in for Featured Instance gear where you could swap an unsuitable item for another with wanted stats.

Instance loot rules vary so much depending on when the instance was first implemented it's a nightmare for any newcomer to come to terms with them all. Throw in what boss in what instance does and doesn't drop a purple, cyan or gold Tracery or not at all because you just levelled into another quirk of the loot rules just makes it a complete mess. No wonder so many don't want anything to do with it all and choose to struggle on with simple re-forges. You can't have a CM who fosters a player base of cretins and expect them to figure any of this out!

[HolyDuckTape]

This is simply an embarassing change and you cannot justify it in anyway even if you go for the ''oh we are going to increase the ember gain for other activities'' well you are still shifting people away from actually instancing and forcing them to do different stuff. Also i would bet that this ''extra source of embers'' is gonna be worse than what we currently have, literally everything that has been done so far to make stuff faster has literally made it slower lol.

Also, embers from gear should be INCREASED remember? Purple went from 200 > 100, Gold from 600 > 300 and teal from 400 > 200 because the end of 130 cap had way too many sources 10+ instances. That was the reason it got nerfed, now we only got 3 miserable instances with barely any loot and the embers gotten from disenchanting have still not returned to its proper base value they should be at.

This is a disgustingly sneaky way for more p2w AND to kill off instancing more than it already has been over the years.

1. Revert the change that disenchanting instance gear does not provide embers
2. Buff the embers gotten from disenchanting back to its proper values (double)
3. Revert the change that you cannot barter 1k embers/motes for figments

Bonus: Give us more locks and actual instances, extra points for instances that actually work. Fix the horrific lag and balance the game for once.