Vanity Fair Amazon Rings of Power story

[DuncanMcDermott]

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...ies-first-look

VF covers much of the new show. During the Super Bowl they will have an ad.

[WeirdJedi]

That's a lot more information than what I was expecting to find.

[PenrodBarker]

What I read left me with no interest in watching.

[Hobbit_bounder]

I thought my expectations couldn't be any lower, but I'm surprised. This looks awful. They're going to butcher the work of Tolkien.

[Happybudgy]

I only looked at the pictures.

Couldn't be bothered to read the article after seeing those.

Firm 'no thank you, glad I know this now. I am off the teeter-totter of 'I want more ME, but do I want to see this?'.

What happens if the audience doesn't take to it either?

I just wanted to see familiar faces.

Silly me.

I liked the posters though, of all the different hands that represented those who held rings.

[Kaeneth]

"It's a no from me."

[Radhruin_EU]

From the article:

Amazon’s series will also broaden the notion of who shares the world of Middle-earth. One original story line centers on a silvan elf named Arondir, played by Ismael Cruz Córdova, who will be the first person of color to play an elf onscreen in a Tolkien project. He is involved in a forbidden relationship with Bronwyn, a human village healer played by Nazanin Boniadi, a British actor of Iranian heritage. Elsewhere, a Brit of Jamaican descent, Sir Lenny Henry, plays a harfoot elder, and Sophia Nomvete has a scene-stealing role as a dwarven princess named Disa—the latter being the first Black woman to play a dwarf in a Lord of the Rings movie, as well as the first female dwarf. “It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like,” says Lindsey Weber, executive producer of the series. “Tolkien is for everyone. His stories are about his fictional races doing their best work when they leave the isolation of their own cultures and come together.”

When Amazon released photos of its multicultural cast, even without character names or plot details, the studio endured a reflexive attack from trolls—the anonymous online kind. “Obviously there was going to be push and backlash,” says Tolkien scholar Mariana Rios Maldonado, “but the question is from whom? Who are these people that feel so threatened or disgusted by the idea that an elf is Black or Latino or Asian?”

Even hard-core fans who regard Tolkien’s work as sacrosanct will recognize his message of unity. Staying true to that is as important as realizing his vision of places and characters from this little known era in his fiction.

This is gaslighting, and in my experience when you see that it's not a good sign. No, it's not natural that an adaptation of an imaginary ancient past should reflect what the world "actually looks like" now, in modern times. That's a contradiction in terms, equivocating between different contexts. GoT did not do that. The Witcher series has not done that. It should look natural on the setting's own terms or at least be explicable, not 'just because'. Trying to score points for diverse casting tends to suggest there's some weakness somewhere else they're trying to compensate for (*cough* the writing? *cough*).

Also, Dwarven 'princess' (sorry, what?), no beard or any other concession towards Tolkien so that's nothing to rave about. You'd think that nowadays people could get behind the idea of appearing of indeterminate gender to others but no, apparently not.

As for Mariana Rios Maldonado, turns out she's a postgrad who's apparently studying "Ethics, Femininity and the Encounter with the Other in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth Narratives", where " “Feminine” is thought here as a wide-ranging concept that enables the reexamination of Tolkienian characters beyond binary male/female gender paradigms. " Hmm, wonder why they chose her to get a quote from?

[PatasdoLeao]

From the article:


This is gaslighting, and in my experience when you see that it's not a good sign. No, it's not natural that an adaptation of an imaginary ancient past should reflect what the world "actually looks like" now, in modern times. That's a contradiction in terms, equivocating between different contexts. GoT did not do that. The Witcher series has not done that. It should look natural on the setting's own terms or at least be explicable, not 'just because'. Trying to score points for diverse casting tends to suggest there's some weakness somewhere else they're trying to compensate for (*cough* the writing? *cough*).

Also, Dwarven 'princess' (sorry, what?), no beard or any other concession towards Tolkien so that's nothing to rave about. You'd think that nowadays people could get behind the idea of appearing of indeterminate gender to others but no, apparently not.

As for Mariana Rios Maldonado, turns out she's a postgrad who's apparently studying "Ethics, Femininity and the Encounter with the Other in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth Narratives", where " “Feminine” is thought here as a wide-ranging concept that enables the reexamination of Tolkienian characters beyond binary male/female gender paradigms. " Hmm, wonder why they chose her to get a quote from?

But that is the exactly the main goal of this new project full of politics.
From their point of view, the old look of Tokien is retrogade and don't deserve an space in our society. That's why they need to substitute these values for their "new" values.

[Wolfhead]

Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made.

- J. R. R. Tolkien

[Bauglin]

Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made.

- J. R. R. Tolkien

As much as I dislike Amazon's treatment of "The Rings of Power" (or at least what I've seen of it so far), I would like to see a citation where Tolkien specifically said the above.

Keep in mind that Tolkien reserved the power of true creation to Eru Iluvatar. All other beings, including the Valar, were only capable of sub-creation, i.e., shaping or modifying the "stuff" of creation to a greater or lesser degree. Thus, the first part of the quote applies to the good guys as much as it does to evil.

[DavidmeetHal]

Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made.

- J. R. R. Tolkien

I don't think he ever said that. I looked, and it appears to have originated on a website called tv tropes.

[Radhruin_EU]

I don't think he ever said that. I looked, and it appears to have originated on a website called tv tropes.

He didn't. What he did say was this:

"The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own."

- Frodo talking to Sam about the Orcs, 'The Tower of Cirith Ungol', RotK

LOTR also refers to Trolls having been made in mockery of Ents (Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin that) but the gist of evil lacking the power of true creation and only being able to make counterfeits in mockery and envy is consistent (it's in the Sil as well, it all goes back to Melkor having been denied the ultimate power of creation). Also discussed in one of Tolkien's letters (#153). So the thought's there, at least.

[Bauglin]

But, again, all the Valar also lacked the power of true creation. They were given substantial power to shape the material of the world, but they could not create de novo, any more than Melkor could.

My two issues with the statement is that 1) Tolkien never said it, and 2) it implies (at least in my brain) that "good" can create (although it uses the word "invent"), which runs counter to Tolkien's entire discussion of creation vs. sub-creation. Thus, it's a disingenuous sound-byte that doesn't stand up to scrutiny any more than Amazon's wholesale "re-invention" of Tolkien's work.

IMO, people should stop using the quote, as it serves no purpose other than to give ammunition to the folks who are ready and eager to paint any detractors with a very broad brush.

[Radhruin_EU]

But, again, all the Valar also lacked the power of true creation. They were given substantial power to shape the material of the world, but they could not create de novo, any more than Melkor could.

My two issues with the statement is that 1) Tolkien never said it, and 2) it implies (at least in my brain) that "good" can create (although it uses the word "invent"), which runs counter to Tolkien's entire discussion of creation vs. sub-creation. Thus, it's a disingenuous sound-byte that doesn't stand up to scrutiny any more than Amazon's wholesale "re-invention" of Tolkien's work.

IMO, people should stop using the quote, as it serves no purpose other than to give ammunition to the folks who are ready and eager to paint any detractors with a very broad brush.

Yes, but when Aule subcreated the Dwarves he was nonetheless forgiven because his heart was in the right place (it wasn't done in envy, only impatience, he'd tried to make something genuinely new and in harmony with creation, and he repented for what he'd done). So the Dwarves went from bootleg subcreation to 'approved' creation when Iluvatar gave them true life. Contrast that with what Melkor did and that's the point - evil can only mock what's there, it doesn't even try to get the overall theme (and doesn't want to), and what it comes up with can only ever be disharmonious (as per Melkor's part of the Great Music - loud, vain, clashing and repetitive, trying to drown out the rest). So there's a valid point there, it's alluding to something genuinely Tolkienesque even if the way they went about expressing it was poor.

[Bauglin]

It was expressed so poorly that it's easy to pick apart. Even more so when it's presented as an actual quote from Tolkien. If we need to lie (even accidentally) to make a point, then the point isn't worth making.

[Radhruin_EU]

It was expressed so poorly that it's easy to pick apart. Even more so when it's presented as an actual quote from Tolkien. If we need to lie (even accidentally) to make a point, then the point isn't worth making.

The means they chose can be picked apart but not the underlying message. Besides, sometimes the way to make a point is to have lots of people make noise, because that way it can't be said that it's just a few cranks and weirdos. Those fans fundamentally meant well, it's not as if everybody's going to be able to spot a fake Tolkien quote when they see one. And it's a white lie, because the concept that's being expressed does come from Tolkien: that evil can't make real new things of its own, only counterfeits.

[Bauglin]

The problem is, using a lie (even a "white" one) tends to mark people as cranks and weirdos. Well intended or not, it's a false attribution that (IMO) mis-uses and misconstrues Tolkien's actual words about the nature of evil.

[Radhruin_EU]

The problem is, using a lie (even a "white" one) tends to mark people as cranks and weirdos. Well intended or not, it's a false attribution that (IMO) mis-uses and misconstrues Tolkien's actual words about the nature of evil.

That false attribution aside, I don't think it does misconstrue it on the whole. By and large, evil doesn't (sub-)create anything 'fair' either (there's that line about the One Ring being the only fair thing that Sauron ever made, and even that fair semblance was a lie) and instead habitually wrecks and ruins things. So again, the underlying sentiment is genuine enough.

I think you're being pedantic about the distinction Tolkien drew between creation and sub-creation (most fans won't even be aware of that) as after all, Amazon are sub-creating within an established milieu and seem to lack the creative spark Tolkien had so the parallel seems apt enough regardless and still comes through.

[Bauglin]

That false attribution aside, I don't think it does misconstrue it on the whole.

A deliberate mis-attribution is a lie. Period. If we're in the right, we can do better.

I think you're being pedantic about the distinction Tolkien drew between creation and sub-creation (most fans won't even be aware of that)

The part I put in bold is about as cynical a statement as I've heard any politician make. You're defending the quote on the basis that most people will be ignorant of what Tolkien actually wrote.

Amazon ... seem to lack the creative spark Tolkien had

Then focus on this. It's true enough, after all, and so far Amazon is supplying abundant evidence.

[Radhruin_EU]

A deliberate mis-attribution is a lie. Period. If we're in the right, we can do better.

The part I put in bold is about as cynical a statement as I've heard any politician make. You're defending the quote on the basis that most people will be ignorant of what Tolkien actually wrote..

It's not cynical in the least when the average fan simply won't know about that stuff. People just wanted to send a message - I'm not defending the quote itself, just saying that they meant well. There is no 'we' in any organised sense and there's no telling or controlling when something's going to go viral like that fake quote did. Even though it wasn't for real it made the point. And if you think I'm being cynical, that's nothing compared to the disinformation and marketing shenanigans there's been from the other side of the argument. Like Amazon's fake 'superfans', for starters.

[Bauglin]

And if you think I'm being cynical, that's nothing compared to the disinformation and marketing shenanigans there's been from the other side of the argument. Like Amazon's fake 'superfans', for starters.

"Whataboutism" is also cynical. But, yep, the superfans thing did give me a chuckle...

[Radhruin_EU]

"Whataboutism" is also cynical. But, yep, the superfans thing did give me a chuckle...

It's not "whataboutism" to point out that with Amazon serving up a huge heap of baloney, fans posting one made-up quote doesn't seem so bad. Because we're talking about the same thing, there (making stuff up), not something else entirely. Fake reactions from fake fans in multiple languages is a rather bigger lie than one fake quote, yes?

[Bauglin]

It's not "whataboutism" to point out that with Amazon serving up a huge heap of baloney, fans posting one made-up quote doesn't seem so bad. Because we're talking about the same thing, there (making stuff up), not something else entirely. Fake reactions from fake fans in multiple languages is a rather bigger lie than one fake quote, yes?

Nope. "Whataboutism" is about diverting personal responsibility by pointing at the mistakes, flaws, or failures of others. The relative degree of the offenses of either side are immaterial. Justifying a "little white lie" by pointing at someone else's big whopping stinking mess of a lie does not change the fact that the little white lie is still dishonest.

As I've said before, if you resort to a lie, even just a little one, to make a point, then you've pretty much failed to make the point.

[Radhruin_EU]

Nope. "Whataboutism" is about diverting personal responsibility by pointing at the mistakes, flaws, or failures of others. The relative degree of the offenses of either side are immaterial. Justifying a "little white lie" by pointing at someone else's big whopping stinking mess of a lie does not change the fact that the little white lie is still dishonest.

As I've said before, if you resort to a lie, even just a little one, to make a point, then you've pretty much failed to make the point.

Jiminy Cricket, is that you? Out here in the real world we have to deal with nuance rather than absolutes. If the point was to draw a mocking parallel between what evil does in Tolkien's work (not creating real new things of its own, and instead ruining things that already exist and making only ugly counterfeits) and Amazon's apparent urge to 'modernise' and deconstruct Tolkien, then that succeeded regardless.

[Bauglin]

Jiminy Cricket, is that you? Out here in the real world we have to deal with nuance rather than absolutes.

I learned long ago that "dealing with nuance" usually just sinks you deeper into the pig wallow. Though I'll confess that I'm continually surprised at the number of people who seem to enjoy it. Rather, I've found that being straightforward, arguing facts and evidence, and being able to back up what I say yields much better results over time.

(disclaimer - I work in a field in which lies, half-truths, and "good intentions" get sussed out pretty quickly, in no small part because they waste everyone's time. IMO, it's more "real" than the world you apparently seem to favor.)

If the point was to draw a mocking parallel between what evil does in Tolkien's work (not creating real new things of its own, and instead ruining things that already exist and making only ugly counterfeits) and Amazon's apparent urge to 'modernise' and deconstruct Tolkien, then that succeeded regardless.

If that was the point, Amazon was supplying plenty of evidence on its own, as you yourself have pointed out. There was and is no need to craft a clever-sounding lie. In fact, "the other side" has used that lie to bolster their own "righteousness:"

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/02/1...tolkien-quote/