The Villains of LOTRO: Who will be the next ‘big-bad’? (Spoilers)

[Halphast]

Rauniel is a great example! And I didn't think you were off-base really, so I hope my reply didn't sound angry. I wasn't!

[Phantion]

Rauniel is a great example! And I didn't think you were off-base really, so I hope my reply didn't sound angry. I wasn't!

No worries Hehehehe

Anyways, I do hope they'll ramp up Lhaereth's threat a bit more and.......... honestly though: Throkhar probably has the most potential for the next "big bad" - referred to in the Chamber of Shadows instance under Moria. I was honestly surprised this Throkhar didn't figure into the Gundabad Expansion and that we only got some teaser-hints in a mission or two.

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

This thread mostly covers it all for main threats, though I would also mention Angmar now - the way their villains were handled in Gundabad was exceptionally short-lived yet VERY effective IMO (though Brathar got the shortest end of the stick sadly and who knows what the heck will come out of THAT ending). From major figures though we have Drugoth and mysterious Magith the Scather (whereabouts unknown, maybe Carn Dum???). While Drugoth's spirit IS interesting I find it kind of more predictable - like, we've already met him, after all. But more Angmarim schemes, especially if better explored and not completely subservient to a "dark lord" such as Sauron, Drugoth or Mordirith? I'm all for that, those guys have become so unpredictably crazy ! It's a bit different and I liked it. It also goes well with early lotro's lore. Because when we got to Mirkwood and then Mordor all of those sorcerers and evil men were kinda familiar and yet... not entirely. Lots of Sauron=god=our lord stuff, more in line as food soldiers in his army and enforcers. But with Angmarim it was always that feel that they had sort of very unique identity, with Witch-king mostly replacing Sauron in the official 'pantheon' but then AGAIN they actually had a false king in charge, gaunt-lords were there and pretty important, besides power struggle was possible (that entire Amarthiel/Mordirith/Mordrambor triangle) and it was Angmarim we have seen more often than most trying to meddle with spirits and ancient evil in more unique ways without any sort of overseeing done by the 'big baddies' in charge. With the Fall of Mordirith, of the Gaunt-lords and then ultimately Sauron they are just in a free fall mode totally out of control so anything is on the table which was very evident with Gundabad plot threads - I would like THAT to be explored more. Who knows, maybe Angmar remnants may ultimately end up as Throkhar's cultists ? End and consume the world... for Angmar... or something... all shall be reborn... I don't really find any other LOTRO villain type as mentally 'complex' (=seriously undisturbed and obsessed with occult haha) to be able to align/dedicate to something like the nameless so that's a cool concept. Reminds me of New Shadow vibes even... perhaps Angmar can be our new shadow before 'The New Shadow'

[Hierona]

It’s not the storyline around Lhaereth that I mind, it’s the whole concept of the merrevail that I don’t like. I just don’t believe them in the setting of Middle Earth (yes I know people will say Thuringwethil but I just think they are cheap in design and not in keeping with Tolkien’s style at all).

My favourite villain? Obviously, encountering the actual Tolkien characters like Saruman, the Watcher and Shelob has been awesome. However I really loved the whole Mordirith/Gothmog storyline. It was so involved, so multi-faceted and so entwined with the lore (making him Earnur - a stroke of genius), as well as providing the Moriarty to our Holmes.

The Merrevail represent the Vampires, who are canon in the lore. So they don't fall out of Tolkiens world at all, but are a great addition. They are used to frequently imo, but I got the same problem with wights, drakes and shades. They seem to be everywhere, where I would like to stumble upon them once in a while. For example, the dead in the Vales of Anduin seem just to be there because they weren't present in the Vales yet, but that could also just be the giants who settled there, or orcs using it as a base of operations, or other creatures we haven't seen yet in game. I would love to have some kind of monkey species in these lands, while we see more variations of them in the south.

[TesalionLortus]

The Merrevail represent the Vampires, who are canon in the lore. So they don't fall out of Tolkiens world at all, but are a great addition. They are used to frequently imo, but I got the same problem with wights, drakes and shades. They seem to be everywhere, where I would like to stumble upon them once in a while. For example, the dead in the Vales of Anduin seem just to be there because they weren't present in the Vales yet, but that could also just be the giants who settled there, or orcs using it as a base of operations, or other creatures we haven't seen yet in game. I would love to have some kind of monkey species in these lands, while we see more variations of them in the south.

The merrevail have only been used once per the giant geographical area though so they've been pretty sparse - so like in Angmar where they were the whole big deal, later in Moria and in Mirkwood for Rhovanion which was a bit off because it got you wondering how are they the remnants of the old days left after Beleriand if they're like scattered all across the map like that, but THEN with Mordor Lhaereth came into the picture which - kind of - retconned their original location from Angmar to Mordor and it started to make more sense now (retconned being a strong word here since it was never clearly stated from where they originated, merely implied). Lhaereth is the true remnant and the 'children' are the lesser brood, just like spiders to Shelob, except fewer in numbers with just a few enclaves established out of Mordor/Mirkwood probably, two places where Lhaereth and her court bothered to dwell more often

The mobs don't bother me as much since the game needs mobs it's mmo. Though I would welcome some more variety and creatures unique to regions... Avancs in Rohan were kinda cool/more unique even though they use the worm model but then they started to appear in so many places that... meh, they're just worms in my mind now. In any case, at least for Eastern lands/Harad I want new creature models/mechanics/mob attacks/variety/geographical uniqueness. Though I would give them a pass and even welcome it if they turn Gundabad's Ukrash into many different varieties of scorpions/scarabs etc because they seem perfectly suited for that. But other than that... just come up with brand new mobs because those biomes offer so much possibilities inspired by real world... lions? some weird warg/sabretooth/lion crossbreeds? Giant desert cats lol? (surprised it still hasn't happened yet after that first draft of Beren and Luthien...). Or giant snakes with cool animations. New jungle varieties of insects, also new animation so I'm not tempted to call them 'just bees again' or - gosh no please no - neekerbreekers... Maybe some giant jungle birds? More majestic like the eagles so more challenging too. possibilities are endless

[Hierona]

The merrevail have only been used once per the giant geographical area though so they've been pretty sparse - so like in Angmar where they were the whole big deal, later in Moria and in Mirkwood for Rhovanion which was a bit off because it got you wondering how are they the remnants of the old days left after Beleriand if they're like scattered all across the map like that, but THEN with Mordor Lhaereth came into the picture which - kind of - retconned their original location from Angmar to Mordor and it started to make more sense now (retconned being a strong word here since it was never clearly stated from where they originated, merely implied). Lhaereth is the true remnant and the 'children' are the lesser brood, just like spiders to Shelob, except fewer in numbers with just a few enclaves established out of Mordor/Mirkwood probably, two places where Lhaereth and her court bothered to dwell more often

That is actually a great way to think about it. It bothered me since Moria that we saw them varely often, but looking back it is not as much as I remembered.

The mobs don't bother me as much since the game needs mobs it's mmo. Though I would welcome some more variety and creatures unique to regions... Avancs in Rohan were kinda cool/more unique even though they use the worm model but then they started to appear in so many places that... meh, they're just worms in my mind now. In any case, at least for Eastern lands/Harad I want new creature models/mechanics/mob attacks/variety/geographical uniqueness. Though I would give them a pass and even welcome it if they turn Gundabad's Ukrash into many different varieties of scorpions/scarabs etc because they seem perfectly suited for that. But other than that... just come up with brand new mobs because those biomes offer so much possibilities inspired by real world... lions? some weird warg/sabretooth/lion crossbreeds? Giant desert cats lol? (surprised it still hasn't happened yet after that first draft of Beren and Luthien...). Or giant snakes with cool animations. New jungle varieties of insects, also new animation so I'm not tempted to call them 'just bees again' or - gosh no please no - neekerbreekers... Maybe some giant jungle birds? More majestic like the eagles so more challenging too. possibilities are endless

Yeah, a lot of variety would be welcome. Avancs could really easily be replaced by other worms, each with different abilities to really let areas stand out. Hobgoblins and Ugrash like in Gundabad are a great feature imo too, since you only come across them here. But a variety in mobs can really set a place apart. Suloks are also a good choice limiting them to Mordor, and in the future the southern areas and not like drakes, who we come across from Eregion till Gundabad and all look the same.

[TesalionLortus]

not like drakes, who we come across from Eregion till Gundabad and all look the same.

I mainly didn't mind drakes since there was a really good story behind them in most recent content, also we HAVE seen cold drakes before but not as densely as fire-drakes - so their chilling appearance was good enough. HOWEVER, this reminds me - we have Thostir, the Great Fire Drake of the East...in Rhun probably... or something like that... which obviously means more drakes but having them be exactly like all the fire drakes we've seen so much of and this coming after Frost Horde where all drakes were STILL basically the same as before in terms of animations, attacks, even looks... oh gosh, that's too much of sameness and even kind of 'bad rep' for the unique lands that I hope Eastern lands will turn out to be... so idk, maybe make the Eastern spawn of Thostir look/move waaaay more different than what we've seen so far, and since Fire-drakes are clearly much broader category than mostly Hrimil-bound, North-confined Cold-drakes (well, at least in third age anyway) maybe just make Eriador fire drakes and Eastern Thostir drakes totally different? Because THAT would make me feel hooked as heck, they're all sorts of different culture designs they can experiment with here for these Eastern drakes...

Makes me think of Draigoch's design which was so different, who knows - maybe they can bring him into this story somehow? Since we know rather nothing about him also maybe he called himself Draigoch after what local men called him because his real name was just so alien that nobody could repeat it, I really liked Smaug's commentary about the utter simplicity of that name in the audio voiceover... "so amusing"

[Hydranova]

Having played through Houses of Rest, I want to give my kudos to the folks who a) came up with the concept behind Loknashra, and b) had the restraint and foresight to not kill them off immediately.

Seriously, let's look at what we've got here:
- Usual Orcish aggro and lack of chill
- Spooky Angmarim sorcery
- A 2-for-1 due to being quasi-haunted/possessed by a ghost (and not just a ghost, but Drugoth who's been hanging around since Thorog!)
- Trying to be the hero for their people

If Karazgar is the subtle* foil to the player character, then Loknashra seems to be like the bad guy that shows up by crashing a bus through the walls of Dale and starts chucking ghosts at people. Even better, Drugoth (who admittedly hasn't shown that much screentime yet but because that's the climax of the arc I'll let it slide) isn't just a plot device but apparently seems to actually interact with his hostess. I hope we run into Loknashra a few more times in the future, and that her and Drugoth's dynamic gets played up.

[TesalionLortus]

If Karazgar is the subtle* foil to the player character, then Loknashra seems to be like the bad guy that shows up by crashing a bus through the walls of Dale and starts chucking ghosts at people.

I guess she's pretty desperate, it's like most of their males died in Gundabad so interesting what she plans to do next and whether we'll travel "North" where the females were said to dwell

Even better, Drugoth (who admittedly hasn't shown that much screentime yet but because that's the climax of the arc I'll let it slide) isn't just a plot device

True, though it would be interesting to find out more about the Angmarim Cult of Drugoth as well and whether they acted independently in this (though I assume they did and perhaps Drugoth being brought up doesn't necessarily mean all of Angmarim immediately submit to his rule?). Also, interesting why Drugoth. Not Ivar, not even Gortheron. I guess maybe Drugoth was lucky enough to have the largest, the most competent following? For some reason? Maybe

[elvenes]

I bet they'll be left hanging just like every other villain after Mordor. Except Hrimil, but they kinda had to bring her back for their ongoing dwarven obsession. Now that we are moving away from dwarves tho? forget about Loknashra

[TesalionLortus]

It depends on where are we going next and what's the next story focus gonna be. Although with Drugoth and Angmar/Eriador villains it's on the table they can use them in more places so they're more likely to resurface even if the story focus isn't on them

[Alenari]

Karazgar is an interesting villain , but I don't like desigh of this character. He reminds me Ramsay Bolton from Game of Thrones.

[TesalionLortus]

Karazgar is an interesting villain , but I don't like desigh of this character.

That's why he needs his mask back! xD Or maybe he'll come up with a brand new one, who knows, as some sort of "overcoming the past" since this was already kind of a major theme with Karazgar.

[Alenari]

As for Ayorzen, I have to think that LOTRO will somehow incorporate the mask of Karazgar into what he does in the East. Perhaps he pretends to be Karazgar in order to gain power and fear over the people of Rhun, or maybe he pretends he has slain Karazgar in order to gain power and respect. Our player character will have to right Ayorzens wrongs and sway him to take action against Lhaereth in this scenario.

As for Karazgar himself, I can’t quite make a prediction to where I see him, but it’s likely that he will be a major factor in the upcoming Gundabad expansion, as he has had a history with the dwarves we are going to Gundabad with, I just can’t see him not playing a role in Gundabad so it is tricky to tell what will happen to him after this expansion.


Of course, these are just my ideas, and I’m well aware that LOTRO will need plenty of more storylines to pad out this rather large region, with the Fields of Celduin, the Barding Lands, Dorwinion, and then Rhun.

So, Karazgar's mask is a powerful dark artefact(a horcrux or phylactery?) . We don t know if other gurzyul created such artefacts. Dulgabeth's helmet, Ruchor's armor may be artefacts too. I hope, they did'nt appear in future. Or Gurzyul is more than an Undead warrior, to become Gurzyul is to have a deal with one of dark spirits(which were serve Sauron since the First Age) and allow this fallen spirit to enslave Gurzyul's body and mind. Mitrandir confirmed that Dullgabeth is dead and we belive him.

[Phantion]

Karazgar is an interesting villain , but I don't like desigh of this character. He reminds me Ramsay Bolton from Game of Thrones.

Yeah I get you there

So, Karazgar's mask is a powerful dark artefact(a horcrux or phylactery?) . We don t know if other gurzyul created such artefacts. Dulgabeth's helmet, Ruchor's armor may be artefacts too. I hope, they did'nt appear in future. Or Gurzyul is more than an Undead warrior, to become Gurzyul is to have a deal with one of dark spirits(which were serve Sauron since the First Age) and allow this fallen spirit to enslave Gurzyul's body and mind. Mitrandir confirmed that Dullgabeth is dead and we belive him.

Karazgar's supposed to be hundreds of years old. I've sort of understood "Gurzyul" as somehow "in between" a mortal and a Nazgul, and I also like the kind of "Star Wars" vibe to it (*ancient Sith are seldom "good looking"). It's like . . . they've lost themselves, their humanity, by making this fatal forever-bargain with the Gurthauk weapon. They are also declining because Sauron is gone, which was why Ugrukhor was so desperate to find his "Bugdatish" / true name- looking for anything that can prolong their existence. Conquest over the North was a means to an end for Karazgar; what he really wanted were dragon bones to feed on to keep himself alive as a perpetual source due to him gradually, long-term dying as a result of Sauron's demise. One thing that is clear is that, presumably, normal weapons could kill them, which makes them weaker than the Nazgul while Sauron is alive - since the Nazgul could just re-cloak themselves and come back to be a threat, whereas the Gurzyul can't. Now the Gurzyul have outlived the Nazgul, but they are slowly dying, because they've lost their power-source - Sauron.

But it's true. Karazgar resembles "Batman's" Two-Face the more I think about it.


With Dulgabeth, SPOILERS --->







His fate is resolved in the Seregost 3-man instance. So, if you've played that instance, you have more than Gandalf's words to go by there. It can be run at a relatively lower level and soloed at this stage to get the main story bits.

Cheers!

[Alenari]

Yeah I get you there




Karazgar's supposed to be hundreds of years old. I've sort of understood "Gurzyul" as somehow "in between" a mortal and a Nazgul, and I also like the kind of "Star Wars" vibe to it (*ancient Sith are seldom "good looking"). It's like . . . they've lost themselves, their humanity, by making this fatal forever-bargain with the Gurthauk weapon. They are also declining because Sauron is gone, which was why Ugrukhor was so desperate to find his "Bugdatish" / true name- looking for anything that can prolong their existence. Conquest over the North was a means to an end for Karazgar; what he really wanted were dragon bones to feed on to keep himself alive as a perpetual source due to him gradually, long-term dying as a result of Sauron's demise. One thing that is clear is that, presumably, normal weapons could kill them, which makes them weaker than the Nazgul while Sauron is alive - since the Nazgul could just re-cloak themselves and come back to be a threat, whereas the Gurzyul can't. Now the Gurzyul have outlived the Nazgul, but they are slowly dying, because they've lost their power-source - Sauron.

But it's true. Karazgar resembles "Batman's" Two-Face the more I think about it.


With Dulgabeth, SPOILERS --->







His fate is resolved in the Seregost 3-man instance. So, if you've played that instance, you have more than Gandalf's words to go by there. It can be run at a relatively lower level and soloed at this stage to get the main story bits.

Cheers!

Very interesting idea about Karazgar! And Dulgabeth..Well, Lhaereth's plague changed him in a disgusting creature, which has only instincts..Dulgabeth the Broken did 'nt understood how freaky he looks.. For player, to kill this beast is an act of mercy. I think, Lhaereth appointed Mouth to the post of executioner in Seregost. Fortunatly, Mouth of Sauron did not have children (may be Yadephal and Zoreth was his grandchildren), apprentices( his heir and most trusted person) and no one will avenge Dulgabeth's death.Dulgabeth was'nt a latent gay .