Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Phantion]

I don't have any special powers to view this sort of thing. I know there are ways to reach parts of the world that we aren't able to access, but I don't know how to do it. The only reason I was able to view hte new area and get the screenshots I posted earlier in this thread was that SSG had accidentally included landscape changes in a live build that they didn't mean to. I'd love to be some sneaky out-of-bounds-exploring ninja, but all I did was climb a gentle hill.

Oh my goodness! One thing I can tell you about me: I'll never ask anyone to go beyond the bounds of the map into dangerous territory to get a screenie LOL I just meant like screenshotting it's appearance on the actual terrainmap plugin, nothing more or less hehe.

But yep, someone else............... I don't want to know how........ got out there, it seems. See, what a lot of players might not know about this virtual spelunking business: players going beyond the bounds of the map actually do risk their avatar-characters getting perma-lost along with all their stuff, especially when messing around with invisible walls or worse - the landscape running out and stuff. If that happens, it's usually unrecoverable. This is why the Devs are adamant about not wanting intrepid explorers like us to go too far hehehe! Now, in both our cases, it was simply a mistake that ended up on Live from BR, and we both happened to run across the neat stuff they are up to over the bounds.

I'm glad they've sealed it off for now though - for those reasons above

Thank you for all your hard work with those screenies and circles: it all makes sense. So, there's this huge bulk area of the zone, we know this now, that'll be south of the Angle, west of Mirobel, west of Fordirith, and north and a little west of the Gloomglens. We know that the zone probably cuts off at those mountains between the Gloomglens and the Mournshaws - and the stuff that's directly west of Mournshaws, Trum Dreng, and Dunbog would probably have to be it's own new region, which we only have a taste of with the Pristine Glade (*more cherry trees? Green fields? Crystal waters? More of that please, LOTRO! ).

Anyways, this new mega-zone would probably open the door, to say, reaching the coastal lands finally. They could, in theory, do that chunk between the Gwaithlo and the Isen after this, bring in the ruins of Lond Daer, the Druwaith Iaur (more Druedain stuff), and so on, and they could approach Andrast from the Eriador or Gondor directions as they saw fit. So, that's pretty exciting. Of course, the area between the Gwaithlo and Brandywine that's southwest of Tharbad would enter into possibilities (Eryn Vorn?), and eventually, South Farthing on the one hand and southern Ered Luin / Harlindon on the other.

So, that's all pretty cool if they're able to start doing these mega-regions. Another cool thing I've realized is that the next update will really make Enedwaith feel more in tune with its scope on Tolkien's map, and it would make total sense for there to be stuff more similar to Bree-land and the Lone-Lands in the northwestern part of the map and for it to gradually change into the more Enedwaith-ish terrain.

I'm even fine with the missing part of Eregion resembling some Enedwaith-ish stuff more. I'd view that as simply the natural world gradually reclaiming what the Elves had done in Eregion- the slow fading of things and so on. I'm very excited about the premise of filling-in the missing parts of the Greenway / Royal Road.

It'll make me really want them to terra-form Wulf's Cleft into a playable space though. I know the tale they were attempting to tell at the time, but let's face it: Wulf's Cleft is severely outdated and was just a testing ground for their phasing tech to use later in the Battle of Helm's Deep. I think that I'd like for them to just remove that prototype tech, add-in some actual quests to do following the conclusion of the Dunbog quest-line, etc., especially since we can run around Isengard anyway and are able to storm everything from Dol Guldor to Seregost and Barad-dur. Makes that 1 Dunlending camp far less scary; I'd just want to be able to ride that part of the Royal Road straight from Starkmoor through Wulf's Cleft to Isendale and out through the Gap into West Rohan via the Heathfells. It would be enough, to my mind, to just make it a very mob-intense, challenge area that's difficult to solo.

Cheers!

[seekingerin]

I think it's very possible the Amazon series has had a hand in shaping the direction of the game. I think it would hard to resist the temptation to create some content that ties into the series in some way, and I do think filling out this part of the world opens the door for a flashback to the forging of the ring.

I agree that it would be nice if they lowered the impassable wall on the western side of the dry riverbed and allowed us to cross back and forth at any point. Eregion is a level 45ish area, so if the new area turns out to be, say, a 50-60 area, I don't see any problems with that. It would be riskier if the new area is a level 140 area, but by this point most players probably will have figured out to stay away from purple mobs, and they may have encountered high-level roaming threats in certain corners of Eriador. And there are some other places with big level jumps in this general level range: Enedwaith is a level 65ish area that borders on a level 45ish area, and Lothlorien is a level 60ish area that borders on a 75ish area and a 120ish(!) area.

I agree that we're probably one or two zones away from the coast. Since this part of the world is light on lore and even lighter on population, I think it would make sense to have some larger, more spread-out regions. It could actually give this part of the world a uniquely lonely atmosphere. And then I do think it makes sense to follow along the coast and connect Eriador and Gondor, moving in either direction.

It would certainly be nice to see something different done with Wulf's Cleft, since it will soon be the one part of the North-South Road that's blocked off. I'd love to be able to travel the entire length of the road!

[seekingerin]

So, I decided to use some of Scenario's Casual Stroll videos and a couple of other YouTube videos to see if I could get a sense of how much the landscape south of the Bree-Land and Lone Lands but west of the Gwathlo has changed by comparing the current in-world game to the world as it existed when those videos were filmed. The differences aren't quite as evident as the changes around Mirobel, and it took a little more world to find evidence of ongoing work, but things are definitely afoot.

Here are a few views looking to the south and southwest from atop Weathertop, taken from Scenario's Casual Stroll Through the Lone-Lands and a video called The Weathertop View by YouTube user METHARK, along with my attempt to recreate those screenshots. The contours of the hills in the distance have definitely changed. The hills have for the most part been lowered, and low-detail placeholder hills have been replaced with more detailed, unique hills, some with sparse tree cover. There's one tree-covered hill that seems to be especially prominent. Note that most of these changes are not evident from the level of the road, and they look to me to be too far west to be visible from the east side of the Gwathlo, which is good evidence that the landscape west of the Gwathlo is being worked on.

Hopefully METHARK doesn't mind me using these screenshots. You can find the original video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5sUaCww6zU

[seekingerin]

Here's another side-by-side screenshot, this time from about halfway down the side of Weathertop:





I'm including this screenshot as well; I don't have a direct comparison for it, but I'm throwing it in because it gives a general sense of the contours of the hills south of Weathertop.



And here's a screenshot showing the general area of the terrain map where these changes seem to be taking place. The forested hill seems to be located roughly where the grey rectangle is, so it's interesting that this is basically the one portion of the new area where there's a gap in the terrain map.

[seekingerin]

Here are a couple of screenshots from Harloeg for your comparison. I had some trouble getting the screenshots I wanted, but from what I can tell, the contour of the hills seems to be altered in the southwest corner of Harloeg, and there appears to be more vegetation on said hills. Again, the hills on the western side of Harloeg don't seem like they would be visible from the eastern side of the Gwathlo, which again suggests that this area is being actively developed.





And here are some screenshots showing some slight changes to the hills southwest of the Forsaken Inn, on the border between the Bree-Land and the Lone Lands. These changes are pretty subtle, but one of the hills has definitely gotten taller, while the one next to it seems to have gotten a bit shorter. In general, the shape of these hills seems to be a bit better defined.

These comparison screenshots are taken from a video called "LOTRO Walk across Middle Earth," posted July 10th, 2019 by Lil of Laurelin. Again, hopefully Lil doesn't mind my use of their video. You can find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ75ZQtIoms

[seekingerin]

And here's one more pair of pictures, taken from the Bree-Land homestead. I again had a hard time getting the screenshots I wanted here, but that hill in the distance has definitely shrunk by, like, a lot.

The other big change I've noticed is that the hills on the south side of the neighborhood seem to have been lowered a bit, giving a better view of the world beyond, and that there's a tower visible to the southwest, in the area of Andrath, that I've never been able to see before. I have a couple of houses along the south side of the neighborhood, so this change was very obvious to me, though I don't have screenshots.

[TesalionLortus]

Very interesting examples, there is evidently lots in the works here. A part of me is sad to see those 'gentle' (placeholder) hilltops visible from starting areas go. They were part of "the calm" of those areas, but I can of course see why the contours would be a bit harsher now since that's probably a bit more realistic and makes more sense in terms of geography they've planned for the areas South.

I agree the Sothern regions should feel bigger but more empty/desolate. Hopefully that's how they intend to use their new landscape generation tech that was used in Car Bronach. Which I hope will be a method of choice for their future additions too, such as Dorwinion/Rhun/Harad directions in particular - those NEED to feel bigger. Something like vast plains of Rohan but maybe somehow bigger in scale (since Rohan was pretty closed off with Southern mountains and mountains/Fangorn to the North). I don't mind empty spaces and quests/quest hubs being more scattered - I would appreciate it! Also, as I suggested in my Quest Pack: Additional Quests idea empty spaces could still be useful (so they aren't harmful going forward) if we ever receive additional quest layer throughout the world with a different engagement philosophy in mind.

In terms of story, maybe we could get something like origins of the Half-orcs? Or at least their 'home' area, and that of other unsavory types that came from the South. Because that's an interesting loose end to explore, there must have been the reason Saruman utilized them as his primary servants and spies (and what were the benefits/toolset offered to them?), before he even militarized Isengard. Exploration of that backstory/relationship would be pretty neat. In general, you could say it was something similar to the Blackwolds/Angmar situation but truly, it's not, since Saruman's bandits - or those in close cahoots with them - clearly come from the South, whereas Blackwolds were more of a local thing, an actual rebellious bandit movement within Breelands. If anyone played Pathfinder: Kingmaker and gets the reference...I can see the entirety of the South being like the Stolen Lands with its own bandit "Stag Lord" (probably half-orc) and maybe some other factions, all of them somehow shady and secluded rather than ordinary folk, only with "Sharkey" obviously even higher up the ladder. Idk, maybe they lived from banditry, local extortion, raids and hunting/occasional farming if suitable because you can't live *just* from extortion except for those higher up the ladder maybe. Perhaps they were the leftover population after the Witch-king's campaigns AND plagues? Left to fend for themselves? And then some, like agents of evil and maybe Gondorian castaways from even further South. But recently there were more troubles with Arnorian shades maybe and land becoming too sick so they were actually forced to migrate, maybe Saruman appeared to them out of pure intentions at first, with some sort of compassion but then decided to turn them into a small army of infiltrators. Heck, or maybe it's Saruman who created half-orcs in the first place, as a gift to make the local men more resilient or something

About Wulf's Cleft, I guess they might do something with it once we get to West March of Rohan maybe? Since they would be working on the landscape close-by anyway, so I guess that's the best opportunity for it. Hmm, in essence, I really liked that old view from the Overlook, that feeling of the might of Dunland mustering, our first real look into an actual full-scale war unfolding in Middle-earth, so there is no way you can just stroll though there and make a head count of Saruman's forces. But I can see the dilemma and having a complete road to traverse through would be great. But I guess if they put their best into it they could still show the might of Dunland only Osgiliath/Pelennor fields style, though maybe they would need to move that huge army camp further from the road and limit our access to it. Maybe add only a few autobestowed quests like 'You decided to traverse the area where the great army of the Dunlendinds musters at Saruman's call, you should kill all the sentries so you aren't spotted!" That would make it work, so it still has a sense of great military danger about it but wouldn't make our still-less-experienced character feel a wee too overpowered at this early stage of the military affairs of the War of the Ring

[Phantion]

I think it's very possible the Amazon series has had a hand in shaping the direction of the game. I think it would hard to resist the temptation to create some content that ties into the series in some way, and I do think filling out this part of the world opens the door for a flashback to the forging of the ring.

I agree that it would be nice if they lowered the impassable wall on the western side of the dry riverbed and allowed us to cross back and forth at any point. Eregion is a level 45ish area, so if the new area turns out to be, say, a 50-60 area, I don't see any problems with that. It would be riskier if the new area is a level 140 area, but by this point most players probably will have figured out to stay away from purple mobs, and they may have encountered high-level roaming threats in certain corners of Eriador. And there are some other places with big level jumps in this general level range: Enedwaith is a level 65ish area that borders on a level 45ish area, and Lothlorien is a level 60ish area that borders on a 75ish area and a 120ish(!) area.

I agree that we're probably one or two zones away from the coast. Since this part of the world is light on lore and even lighter on population, I think it would make sense to have some larger, more spread-out regions. It could actually give this part of the world a uniquely lonely atmosphere. And then I do think it makes sense to follow along the coast and connect Eriador and Gondor, moving in either direction.

It would certainly be nice to see something different done with Wulf's Cleft, since it will soon be the one part of the North-South Road that's blocked off. I'd love to be able to travel the entire length of the road!

Yes! Thank you so much for your hard work in this thread! I'm amazed at the level of detail in those screenshots; thank ye!

Very interesting examples, there is evidently lots in the works here. A part of me is sad to see those 'gentle' (placeholder) hilltops visible from starting areas go. They were part of "the calm" of those areas, but I can of course see why the contours would be a bit harsher now since that's probably a bit more realistic and makes more sense in terms of geography they've planned for the areas South.

I agree the Sothern regions should feel bigger but more empty/desolate. Hopefully that's how they intend to use their new landscape generation tech that was used in Car Bronach. Which I hope will be a method of choice for their future additions too, such as Dorwinion/Rhun/Harad directions in particular - those NEED to feel bigger. Something like vast plains of Rohan but maybe somehow bigger in scale (since Rohan was pretty closed off with Southern mountains and mountains/Fangorn to the North). I don't mind empty spaces and quests/quest hubs being more scattered - I would appreciate it! Also, as I suggested in my Quest Pack: Additional Quests idea empty spaces could still be useful (so they aren't harmful going forward) if we ever receive additional quest layer throughout the world with a different engagement philosophy in mind.

In terms of story, maybe we could get something like origins of the Half-orcs? Or at least their 'home' area, and that of other unsavory types that came from the South. Because that's an interesting loose end to explore, there must have been the reason Saruman utilized them as his primary servants and spies (and what were the benefits/toolset offered to them?), before he even militarized Isengard. Exploration of that backstory/relationship would be pretty neat. In general, you could say it was something similar to the Blackwolds/Angmar situation but truly, it's not, since Saruman's bandits - or those in close cahoots with them - clearly come from the South, whereas Blackwolds were more of a local thing, an actual rebellious bandit movement within Breelands. If anyone played Pathfinder: Kingmaker and gets the reference...I can see the entirety of the South being like the Stolen Lands with its own bandit "Stag Lord" (probably half-orc) and maybe some other factions, all of them somehow shady and secluded rather than ordinary folk, only with "Sharkey" obviously even higher up the ladder. Idk, maybe they lived from banditry, local extortion, raids and hunting/occasional farming if suitable because you can't live *just* from extortion except for those higher up the ladder maybe. Perhaps they were the leftover population after the Witch-king's campaigns AND plagues? Left to fend for themselves? And then some, like agents of evil and maybe Gondorian castaways from even further South. But recently there were more troubles with Arnorian shades maybe and land becoming too sick so they were actually forced to migrate, maybe Saruman appeared to them out of pure intentions at first, with some sort of compassion but then decided to turn them into a small army of infiltrators. Heck, or maybe it's Saruman who created half-orcs in the first place, as a gift to make the local men more resilient or something

About Wulf's Cleft, I guess they might do something with it once we get to West March of Rohan maybe? Since they would be working on the landscape close-by anyway, so I guess that's the best opportunity for it. Hmm, in essence, I really liked that old view from the Overlook, that feeling of the might of Dunland mustering, our first real look into an actual full-scale war unfolding in Middle-earth, so there is no way you can just stroll though there and make a head count of Saruman's forces. But I can see the dilemma and having a complete road to traverse through would be great. But I guess if they put their best into it they could still show the might of Dunland only Osgiliath/Pelennor fields style, though maybe they would need to move that huge army camp further from the road and limit our access to it. Maybe add only a few autobestowed quests like 'You decided to traverse the area where the great army of the Dunlendinds musters at Saruman's call, you should kill all the sentries so you aren't spotted!" That would make it work, so it still has a sense of great military danger about it but wouldn't make our still-less-experienced character feel a wee too overpowered at this early stage of the military affairs of the War of the Ring

I like some of these ideas . . . with Wulf's Cleft: see, when you look down now at the camp, most of the "distant imposter Dunlendings" really looked like blurred cartoons from an old Pac-man game or something. So . . . the tech there just hasn't aged very well.

What I would say is that it should be re-purposed as a Group area like Limlight Gorge was: heavy, mob intense, perhaps brimming with signatures and commanders, something virtually impossible to solo. I'd say that would be a very good compromise: to make it the "Tarlang's Crown" of the Dunland region since I agree with you to the extent that no one should be able to just waltz-on in there without much difficulty. Ummm... compromise?

With the Half-Orc origins, SPOILER ALERT for any who haven't played through Rise of Isengard yet:





Actually, those origins were addressed somewhat in 2 areas: Dunbog and Nan Curunir proper.


1- Dunbog. In Lhan Colvarn, the town that had belonged to the Turc-luth / Boar Clan in the north of Dunbog, we find a ton of diseased men and half-Orc-like creatures and even trolls covered in a fungus. At first glance, it looks similar to the Globsnaga in the Foundations of Stone in Moria, but actually, it's Saruman's experimenting. Saruman is sickening Dunlendings and turning them into Half-Orcs.

2- Pits of Isengard. This is where Saruman breeds the Half-Orcs. Apparently he combines the Orcs and Dunlendings somehow to become Half-Orcs; it reminds me of what Peter Jackson's films were up to with the Uruks coming out of the gunk at the bottom of the industrial pits.

3- Tower of Orthanc - especially in the Fire and Ice laboratory / giant wing. There, you encounter sick Dunlendings - the very sort that we found in Dunbog - who say "Fuse, mutate, transform!" or something of the like; they turn into Half-Orcs mid-fight (*which makes the business in the Pits instance somewhat more confusing - but there you have it).

---

There are certainly some gaps in then-Turbine's storytelling there about how particular Dunlendings were chosen or if they were seized as enslaved people and experimented on or what. But there's a clear progression through the content that still reveals, even if partially, the origins of the Half-Orcs. The game, however, was not quite so detailed in the process of it. Were the Dunlendings and Orcs thrown into vats of acid? Was it the fungal disease? Did the fungal disease come from the acid? How did the fungal disease turn the Dunlendings into Half-Orcs? How could they do so mid-fight in a raid- that made no sense?

Anyways. They'd probably need to revisit . . . Rise of Isengard itself if they wanted to make that tale somewhat clearer. There are certainly some mysteries there!

---

I digress! Back to the main topic at hand: I'm looking forward to seeing more of what they are developing south of Bree-land and the Lone-Lands. I've noticed some Bree-land oak trees appear on the hills above Talath Gaun - visible from that fortress south of Tornhad in the Angle. I also noticed that the topography on the western side of the Gwaithlo got a bit hillier from what I could see from the absolute southern tip of the Angle in the rapids where the Gwaithlo forms.

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

to make it the "Tarlang's Crown" of the Dunland region since I agree with you to the extent that no one should be able to just waltz-on in there without much difficulty. Ummm... compromise?

I thought something more like the vast encampments of Pelennor Before Battle and Osgiliath, but sure, making it fellowship would be pretty neat (although they can always have a giant camp behind some barricade and inaccessible, with lots of men visible like the fighters of Pelennor etc for better effect. Tarlang's Crown was a very small contingent of a larger force, after all, and I doubt the main head count of Corsairs was anything close to Saruman's Dunlendings, even if combined with the Haradrims they took aboard.

With the Half-Orc origins, SPOILER ALERT for any who haven't played through Rise of Isengard yet:

Oh, I always thought they were random experiments and different mutations, the Dunbog situation and some other stuff in the instances that used Globsnaga models looked like the final result was supposed to be something else than Half-orcs. More like mutants with super strength or something like that :P Although I don't remember the one that turned into a half-orc so curious, maybe that was a gentle nod towards it yes. At the very least I guess it's safe to assume Saruman IS responsible for their creation, though if we were to actually delve into that story thread I would also go with a theory that their "original creation" took place yeaaaars ago, so the "Sharkey's half-orcs" are more like an already established race/denizens of Middle-earth, not just some Dunlendings fresh from the pits. Maybe that could be a way to clarify this anyway, if we actually delve into that story thread again

[Phantion]

I think it's very possible the Amazon series has had a hand in shaping the direction of the game. I think it would hard to resist the temptation to create some content that ties into the series in some way, and I do think filling out this part of the world opens the door for a flashback to the forging of the ring.

I agree that it would be nice if they lowered the impassable wall on the western side of the dry riverbed and allowed us to cross back and forth at any point. Eregion is a level 45ish area, so if the new area turns out to be, say, a 50-60 area, I don't see any problems with that. It would be riskier if the new area is a level 140 area, but by this point most players probably will have figured out to stay away from purple mobs, and they may have encountered high-level roaming threats in certain corners of Eriador. And there are some other places with big level jumps in this general level range: Enedwaith is a level 65ish area that borders on a level 45ish area, and Lothlorien is a level 60ish area that borders on a 75ish area and a 120ish(!) area.

I agree that we're probably one or two zones away from the coast. Since this part of the world is light on lore and even lighter on population, I think it would make sense to have some larger, more spread-out regions. It could actually give this part of the world a uniquely lonely atmosphere. And then I do think it makes sense to follow along the coast and connect Eriador and Gondor, moving in either direction.

It would certainly be nice to see something different done with Wulf's Cleft, since it will soon be the one part of the North-South Road that's blocked off. I'd love to be able to travel the entire length of the road!

Another thing I thought of here: RE- the North-South Road and fixing Wulf's Cleft... this is also why I really want them to revisit the way things are between the Wastes, Dead Marshes, and the missing Wetwang and Emyn Muil.

At first glance, I thought with Car Bronach and Elderslade that you could follow the Anduin - Great River - all the way from its distant headwaters in the North to where it enters the Bay of Belfalas.

But, this isn't strictly true. You can follow the water all the way - but not the river. The troublesome spot is the Mouths of the Entwash in the Beacon Hills in Far Anorien. Those blasted artificial reeds prevent you from following the Great River - and I mean only the Great River - from Rauros down to the fringes of Taur Druadan before entering Talath Anor and so on.

So, that's another example of an area they'd need to clean up to "complete the trail" if you will. I think the Gondor map would make the most sense for these- to just have Emyn Muil / Wetwang be level 100 like the adjacent Dead Marshes or maybe level 95-100 as an alternative to West Gondor or something - and then just use a portal or clicky-portal of some sort to go from Parth Galen to Amon Lhaw and climb up into the hills from there.

I'd also really like them, if possible at all, to refresh the visuals south of the East Rohan East Wall, where the Mouths of the Entwash resemble pre-Far-Anorien and it looks under-developed. When you are on the Far Anorien side, you know you're supposed to see the Beacon Hills, parts of the White Mountains, and the northwesternmost eaves of Taur Druadan from that spot across the Mouths. That's just a matter of distant landscape-draw stuff, really

I thought something more like the vast encampments of Pelennor Before Battle and Osgiliath, but sure, making it fellowship would be pretty neat (although they can always have a giant camp behind some barricade and inaccessible, with lots of men visible like the fighters of Pelennor etc for better effect. Tarlang's Crown was a very small contingent of a larger force, after all, and I doubt the main head count of Corsairs was anything close to Saruman's Dunlendings, even if combined with the Haradrims they took aboard.

Well, to my memory banks, Wulf's Cleft is small compared to all the Corsair and Haradrim hubs in West and Central Gondor. If I added up all those camps from Tarlang's Crown to the camp in Lamedon to the camp south of Dol Amroth to the two camps in Dor-en-Ernil to the camp in the ruins south of Linhir to the camp in mid-Lower-Lebennin to the sprawling camp outside Pelargir, I bet I could fill most of Dunland! Hehehe The game's numbers seemed pretty formidable there. With Tarlang's Crown, I didn't mean so much the mob density but their morale: their strength- and that, back at level 100, no one could really just steam-through and solo it. It was really hard!!!

So, imagine foes with those higher morale points . . . but like 30-50 of them in a spot. Either idea would work though

IOh, I always thought they were random experiments and different mutations, the Dunbog situation and some other stuff in the instances that used Globsnaga models looked like the final result was supposed to be something else than Half-orcs. More like mutants with super strength or something like that :P Although I don't remember the one that turned into a half-orc so curious, maybe that was a gentle nod towards it yes. At the very least I guess it's safe to assume Saruman IS responsible for their creation, though if we were to actually delve into that story thread I would also go with a theory that their "original creation" took place yeaaaars ago, so the "Sharkey's half-orcs" are more like an already established race/denizens of Middle-earth, not just some Dunlendings fresh from the pits. Maybe that could be a way to clarify this anyway, if we actually delve into that story thread again

Sure- interesting

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Well, to my memory banks, Wulf's Cleft is small compared to all the Corsair and Haradrim hubs in West and Central Gondor. If I added up all those camps from Tarlang's Crown to the camp in Lamedon to the camp south of Dol Amroth to the two camps in Dor-en-Ernil to the camp in the ruins south of Linhir to the camp in mid-Lower-Lebennin to the sprawling camp outside Pelargir, I bet I could fill most of Dunland! Hehehe

Now, you're technically right, and this is a good example of game-world disparity, I guess. Funny how these things are noticeable after more careful inspection. But then again, Wulf's Cleft was always intended to be view from safe distance, not up close, in which case it could appear larger, so there was no need to actually make it be larger/mightier (or perhaps more scattered too), as far as world design was concerned back then. It's inaccessible apart from that one instance, in which it was pretty empty-looking anyway, since basically an equivalent of walking into a trap/suicide mission, and instanced versions in general tend to omit some details that are otherwise visible on landscape. That's why, whichever way they may handle it if they ever get to it, I hope they may make Wulf's Cleft feel and look very mighty impressive as a gathering place of an army, more so than any of these camps in Gondor.


Nice idea about East Wall and Rauros. Although I'm not sure if they even have a good way to get us into Emyn Muil, at this point, unless of course a lower level zone at some point but there are more interesting candidates in the waiting line, actually. Anything left standing in Eriador is literally far more interesting in terms of filling-in-the-gaps than anything that could be done with Emyn Muil to Death Marshes connection.

[Phantion]

Now, you're technically right, and this is a good example of game-world disparity, I guess. Funny how these things are noticeable after more careful inspection. But then again, Wulf's Cleft was always intended to be view from safe distance, not up close, in which case it could appear larger, so there was no need to actually make it be larger/mightier (or perhaps more scattered too), as far as world design was concerned back then. It's inaccessible apart from that one instance, in which it was pretty empty-looking anyway, since basically an equivalent of walking into a trap/suicide mission, and instanced versions in general tend to omit some details that are otherwise visible on landscape. That's why, whichever way they may handle it if they ever get to it, I hope they may make Wulf's Cleft feel and look very mighty impressive as a gathering place of an army, more so than any of these camps in Gondor.

Yes, but at the same time, remember: the Dunlendings weren't in a majority during the Battle of Helm's Deep. They were a smaller group in the majority of Orcs and Uruk-hai. I honestly think they should really consider just expanding that whole area and giving it some more space since, you're right, the Dunlendings are gathering there for war. Maybe it could straddle both sides of the river, including that Gondorian tower across from it, and maybe they could smooth-out some of that land, maybe throw a wooden bridge over the Isen, and make it feel much bigger and perhaps expand from there into the missing Westmarch of Rohan between the Isen and Adorn Rivers.

Nice idea about East Wall and Rauros. Although I'm not sure if they even have a good way to get us into Emyn Muil, at this point, unless of course a lower level zone at some point but there are more interesting candidates in the waiting line, actually. Anything left standing in Eriador is literally far more interesting in terms of filling-in-the-gaps than anything that could be done with Emyn Muil to Death Marshes connection.

Well, for me, look I get it: Emyn Muil is a labyrinth zone of very hard to navigate cliffs. They might want to do a clicky-rope grappling hook system and have a quest involving placing those to get through the otherwise-impassable terrain, which could make the zone feel a bit choppy in some areas (*that or allow for some clever cliff jumping). But don't forget the "Hoth rule": an empty, desolate land (like Hoth in "Star Wars") has nothing going on there until the Story brings something there to happen. Maybe we can chase one of the Gurzyul in there or something as a place someone being chased would want to hide and ambush someone in.

For me, it really has to do with how the game represents what Tolkien actually wrote. Maybe Sam or Frodo, while they're still in Minas Tirith Midsummer, could send Player on a mission to "gather notes" about the route they took through Emyn Muil and where they first encountered Gollum and where Frodo made Gollum make his promise and so on. Maybe it could be more of a level 105 area, since lore-wise, it would be "off-limits" while Frodo and Sam are still going through there. They could have a portal on the Amon Lhaw side of Rhovanion Nen Hithoel easily enough.

But I disagree on "interesting" here. I would be greatly interested to see the game revisit those key, world-defining events in the lore, especially the pity of Frodo in that moment that pretty much, long-term, saved everything. It's literally the missing part of Frodo's journey prior to his return homeward to the Scouring. I'd really like them to revisit and finish Frodo's Quest before sending him home if that's possible by getting that last missing part into the game. It could be a lesser update that would include Emyn Muil, the Wetwang, and perhaps expand the current Dead Marshes so it doesn't feel so artificial, along with expanding the current Mouths of the Entwash. I'd also like them to have a far more natural connector between the Gondor Mouths of the Entwash and the Sutcrofts side of it, as you can only make the jump between the maps in the Eastfold, and so, that area feels very, very choppy for that reason. I'd sooner wish they'd just expand the Gondor one westward to maybe a gate into the Sutcrofts you could take that follows the bottom of the East Wall.

It all just feels in need of the same sort of love we know they are up to in the Swanfleet, which is what made me think of it: another currently vast wet-lands style zone. I agree with you that I'd love to see them continue expanding Eriador toward the Sea as well. But I think, what I'm basically trying to say in this post, is that I'd like them to then hit the "in need of some worldbuilding-love" spots before expanding further into other regions, revising those choppy areas. I'd like to follow Frodo's footsteps from Bag End to Mount Doom - and Emyn Muil is missing from that journey. Similarly, I'd like them to make a portal from Goblin-Town into Vales of Anduin so you could follow Bilbo's footsteps all the way also - and that's the only tiny thing missing, literally a portal.

I think another choppy area is the missing chunk of Northern Mirkwood between Felegoth and Ered Mithrim- and another choppy area is Southern Mirkwood and its surrounds, along with pretty much the whole east side of Anduin heading down to East Wall. Eriador-wise, for filling-in-gaps, Northern Ered Luin / the upper Lune Valley and the missing stuff between Forochel and Angmar would be welcome too.

It's exciting to see they are looking around at this kind of polishing and gap-filling, and I know Scenario could pull it off, especially in those areas where the "main world maps" meet. Wulf's Cleft and the lands west / southwest of it are a good example of where Eriador and Gondor would meet along with Rhovanion. With Emyn Muil, you have Rhovanion and Gondor meeting, and of course, out the other side of the Dead Marshes, Gondor and Mordor. With Southern Mirkwood, it's really the whole story-mess of having to claim the beachhead before accessing the zone, which I really wish they could just relegate to an Epic-only public instance and otherwise open up the whole region to contiguous travel regardless of Epic Book 9 completion rather than having it as this artificial, walled-off area in the middle of all this other stuff. That worked with Moria because Moria's an interior dungeon in itself, but Southern Mirkwood will be entering a part of the game's history where it will have lands surrounding it. It already is moving that way with Laerlad to the north of the Scuttledells.

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Yes, but at the same time, remember: the Dunlendings weren't in a majority during the Battle of Helm's Deep. They were a smaller group in the majority of Orcs and Uruk-hai.

Hard to tell how smaller though (1000? or 4000?), I would probably put it between 2000-3000 if I were to guess, since Saruman did forced most of Dunland into his service, after all, so the numbers had to be worth it too (obviously he got slaves and resources out of it as well, but yeah, numbers must have been important too). Then again, who knows how many of the Corsairs there were - with their costal raid and retreat pirate tactics perhaps not as much as one would imagine based on the amount of enemy camps/mobs throughout Western and Central Gondor. Gondor was already emptied for the defense of Minas Tirith (in part) so they had it much easier too. No doubt they were formidable but maybe less in numbers than Dunlendings, with the exception that the Corsair fleet were fighters of a better quality and more shocking value (their sea expertise + deadly Haradrim archers + formidable half-trolls, they must have been very effective, and with Azruthor's gambit and horde of undead creatures, fell trolls and oughtbreakers would have been unstoppable).


Oh well, the devs will do what they hope is right. All I said was there are "more interesting" matters to resolve among matters already ongoing and more juicy things to introduce in terms of lower lvl possibilities (since like you say, Emyn Muil would require revisiting on a higher level, after Frodo's journey). I do see the value of that unrealized chapter of the book though, and with the Taming of Smeagol too.

I agree with you that I'd love to see them continue expanding Eriador toward the Sea as well.

In terms of "more interesting" I guess I meant that giant hole we'll be left with between Lone Lands, Angmar, Trollshows and Northdown, first and foremost. A new connection to Misties perhaps. Also, stuff like South-farthing, Tower Hills, and towards the sea/Grey Havens from that direction. South from the "Royal Road" - I don't see a hurry and getting into Anfalas/the rest of Gondor doesn't seem like it's justified story-wise yet. Forochel-to-Angmar connection has great potential, with closeness of Forodwaith, so who knows, but that's clearly on-cap content, I would say. It's a shame MoL envisioned it differently and refused to connect Yondershire with Western part of Evendim but I don't see much value (yet) in adding the missing chunk above that would connect it to Northen Ered Luin/Ered Luin and, eventually, Frostbluff. It's best to leave that Western Evendim approach closed off, for now.

I think another choppy area is the missing chunk of Northern Mirkwood between Felegoth and Ered Mithrim

I guess it's pretty good immersion-wise though. I view them as the deepest parts of the woods, somewhere deep where Taurogrim lied dormant for all these years, so we actually have Taurogrim lairs in Northern section of Strongolds of the North and Southern section of Ered Mithrin. Wood folks like Radagast and Beornings love to take shortcuts through very harsh woods but our character has absolutely no business (and no willingness) to make THAT journey :P Sure, assuming the devs can do whatever they want and they have 20 teams working on separate additions to the game - why not, 100% of map sounds great! But obviously there are better things to do and commit to, realistically

and another choppy area is Southern Mirkwood and its surrounds, along with pretty much the whole east side of Anduin heading down to East Wall.
With Southern Mirkwood, it's really the whole story-mess of having to claim the beachhead before accessing the zone, which I really wish they could just relegate to an Epic-only public instance and otherwise open up the whole region to contiguous travel regardless of Epic Book 9 completion rather than having it as this artificial, walled-off area in the middle of all this other stuff.

This one is indeed more of a problem, hopefully they can revisit it sometime in the future

[seekingerin]

In terms of story, maybe we could get something like origins of the Half-orcs? Or at least their 'home' area, and that of other unsavory types that came from the South. Because that's an interesting loose end to explore, there must have been the reason Saruman utilized them as his primary servants and spies (and what were the benefits/toolset offered to them?), before he even militarized Isengard. Exploration of that backstory/relationship would be pretty neat. In general, you could say it was something similar to the Blackwolds/Angmar situation but truly, it's not, since Saruman's bandits - or those in close cahoots with them - clearly come from the South, whereas Blackwolds were more of a local thing, an actual rebellious bandit movement within Breelands. If anyone played Pathfinder: Kingmaker and gets the reference...I can see the entirety of the South being like the Stolen Lands with its own bandit "Stag Lord" (probably half-orc) and maybe some other factions, all of them somehow shady and secluded rather than ordinary folk, only with "Sharkey" obviously even higher up the ladder. Idk, maybe they lived from banditry, local extortion, raids and hunting/occasional farming if suitable because you can't live *just* from extortion except for those higher up the ladder maybe. Perhaps they were the leftover population after the Witch-king's campaigns AND plagues? Left to fend for themselves? And then some, like agents of evil and maybe Gondorian castaways from even further South. But recently there were more troubles with Arnorian shades maybe and land becoming too sick so they were actually forced to migrate, maybe Saruman appeared to them out of pure intentions at first, with some sort of compassion but then decided to turn them into a small army of infiltrators. Heck, or maybe it's Saruman who created half-orcs in the first place, as a gift to make the local men more resilient or something

I just played Pathfinder: Kingmaker last year. I've always thought that the best story hook for southern Eriador would be to build on the story of the brigands, who seem to have come from this area. Southern Eriador has been "abandoned" for centuries, but I don't think that has to mean that literally no one lives there... that would honestly be as unrealistic as it would be uninteresting. There could, and still probably would, still be small settlements, isolated farms, treasure hunters like the ones in the Lone-Lands and Evendim. We might see hill-men, earth-kin, and Dunlending settlements, and we know that some hobbits live here. And yes, because we know that the bandits around the Bree-Land came from the south, and because there's no government of any sort to control these lands, we should see a large bandit presence. I want to see the Blackwold that the bandits are named after!

Exploring the half-orcs in more depth is a great idea too. I haven't played through Dunland in many years, but I believe what Phantion says about their origins. In any case, I feel like there's probably more story to be told here.

I like some of these ideas . . . with Wulf's Cleft: see, when you look down now at the camp, most of the "distant imposter Dunlendings" really looked like blurred cartoons from an old Pac-man game or something. So . . . the tech there just hasn't aged very well.

What I would say is that it should be re-purposed as a Group area like Limlight Gorge was: heavy, mob intense, perhaps brimming with signatures and commanders, something virtually impossible to solo. I'd say that would be a very good compromise: to make it the "Tarlang's Crown" of the Dunland region since I agree with you to the extent that no one should be able to just waltz-on in there without much difficulty. Ummm... compromise?

The best option for Wulf's Cleft might just be to make it an instanced space or a public dungeon that we can enter through the northern and eastern gates. IIRC there's already a Wulf's Cleft instance that we enter for some quest or another, so they could build on that. I think it would be great to make it a group content space; I kind of miss group areas. The only problem I see with that is that, because it's not an endgame area, there might not be enough players at the appropriate level at the same time for that to work. It's certainly a cool option, though.

Another thing I thought of here: RE- the North-South Road and fixing Wulf's Cleft... this is also why I really want them to revisit the way things are between the Wastes, Dead Marshes, and the missing Wetwang and Emyn Muil.

At first glance, I thought with Car Bronach and Elderslade that you could follow the Anduin - Great River - all the way from its distant headwaters in the North to where it enters the Bay of Belfalas.

But, this isn't strictly true. You can follow the water all the way - but not the river. The troublesome spot is the Mouths of the Entwash in the Beacon Hills in Far Anorien. Those blasted artificial reeds prevent you from following the Great River - and I mean only the Great River - from Rauros down to the fringes of Taur Druadan before entering Talath Anor and so on.

So, that's another example of an area they'd need to clean up to "complete the trail" if you will. I think the Gondor map would make the most sense for these- to just have Emyn Muil / Wetwang be level 100 like the adjacent Dead Marshes or maybe level 95-100 as an alternative to West Gondor or something - and then just use a portal or clicky-portal of some sort to go from Parth Galen to Amon Lhaw and climb up into the hills from there.

I'd also really like them, if possible at all, to refresh the visuals south of the East Rohan East Wall, where the Mouths of the Entwash resemble pre-Far-Anorien and it looks under-developed. When you are on the Far Anorien side, you know you're supposed to see the Beacon Hills, parts of the White Mountains, and the northwesternmost eaves of Taur Druadan from that spot across the Mouths. That's just a matter of distant landscape-draw stuff, really

Over the last few years I've really started to think about "road trips" I would like to be able to take through LOTRO. The Anduin is one of them; I'm glad we can ALMOST follow the Anduin from it's mouths to its source. But yes, there's a stretch of it that we can't follow, which is frustrating. The North-South Road is another; we'll be able to ALMOST follow its entire length, but there's the issue of Wulf's Cliff. Frodo and Bilbo's journeys are two others, but we have the issue of the Emyn Muil and the missing eastern portal out of Goblin Town. I'm glad to see there are other people who are thinking about these road trips and who are frustrated by the same roadblocks I am. I honestly don't think I necessarily even need quests attached to these areas. I would be content to just be able to have these tiny gaps in the world filled in.

[TesalionLortus]

I and the missing eastern portal out of Goblin Town.

Forgot to mention this and by now you both mentioned it, so I'm not sure whether I'm misunderstanding you here or something, but... the Eastern Goblin Town connection is already there? To my knowledge? I've been there, so unless they've re removed it - it's there. You enter though the Gate where Bilbo lost his buttons in the Vales of Anduin and you're in Goblin Town, albeit, if I remember this correctly, at first it's a small section in the instanced "After the Fall" version that's in line with the events shown in the Vales and the power struggle between goblins/hobgoblins. But at some point inside - there is a gate/portal/vector (can't remember what exactly now) and it takes you into the appropriate section of the old Goblin town. At least that's how I remember it and it can't be I imagining it, surely.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Forgot to mention this and by now you both mentioned it, so I'm not sure whether I'm misunderstanding you here or something, but... the Eastern Goblin Town connection is already there? To my knowledge? I've been there, so unless they've re removed it - it's there. You enter though the Gate where Bilbo lost his buttons in the Vales of Anduin and you're in Goblin Town, albeit, if I remember this correctly, at first it's a small section in the instanced "After the Fall" version that's in line with the events shown in the Vales and the power struggle between goblins/hobgoblins. But at some point inside - there is a gate/portal/vector (can't remember what exactly now) and it takes you into the appropriate section of the old Goblin town. At least that's how I remember it and it can't be I imagining it, surely.

It wasn't there the last time I went to look, but that must have been several years ago at the least. Anyone can confirm whether this connection exists?

[auximenes]

There's an entrance into Goblin Town from the east side, on the Vales of Anduin map, just to the right of the 'To The Misty Mountains' text.

[seekingerin]

There's an eastern entrance to Goblin Town, yes, but I just went there and clicked on the door and I got a message saying "That is locked." That's how I remember it working in the past.

IIRC, you can enter this gate during a particular quest, and it takes you to a Goblin Town instance; there's also a mission or two that takes place in the same instanced space. If you attempt to open the eastern entrance to Goblin Town before or after the quest that specifically takes you there, though, you aren't allowed to... you get the message saying the door is locked. So yes, there are very specific circumstances in which it's possible to enter Goblin Town from the east, but it's not possible to do so outside of that very narrow situation. So we aren't able to follow Bilbo's entire journey from the Shire to Erebor because, as far as I'm aware, it's not possible to enter Goblin Town from the Misty Mountains and exit into the Vales of Anduin.

What I want is what TesalionLortus describes: a connection from the Misty Mountains version of Goblin Town to the Vales of Anduin version, and then a connection from the Vales of Anduin version to the Vales themselves that we can pass through at any time we would like. As far as I know, that currently doesn't exist in game.

I could be missing something, though. I'd love to be proven wrong about this.

[TesalionLortus]

Hmm, I gotta go to the Vales and check later today. I'm sure the connection was there somewhere, weird.

[TesalionLortus]

So I can confirm that it is locked for me as well, although I specifically remember discovering the connection "between Goblin Towns" unless my brain makes a total absolute fool out of me, hard to tell. It is very likely I discovered it during an instance though, so when the gate was accessible. I've done the quests, at the end there was the throne room with the goblin crowd cheering, with some of the access cut off, but what I remember here is that somewhere there were a door or something and I was surprised that I found myself in the old Goblin Town dungeon, one door before the throne room, at which point I was like "ahhh, so that's how they did it." But now the gate appears to be inaccessible from the Eastern side so either what I experienced in the past was some kind of a bug that seemed like a legit solution (which would have been funny) or the gate being inaccessible now is actually a bug that needs fixing, so maybe good to ask @Scenario or someone. What's up with that.

PS: Unless of course I completely imagined it or I dreamed about it, but geez, I wouldn't say it's likely!

[seekingerin]

So I can confirm that it is locked for me as well, although I specifically remember discovering the connection "between Goblin Towns" unless my brain makes a total absolute fool out of me, hard to tell. It is very likely I discovered it during an instance though, so when the gate was accessible. I've done the quests, at the end there was the throne room with the goblin crowd cheering, with some of the access cut off, but what I remember here is that somewhere there were a door or something and I was surprised that I found myself in the old Goblin Town dungeon, one door before the throne room, at which point I was like "ahhh, so that's how they did it." But now the gate appears to be inaccessible from the Eastern side so either what I experienced in the past was some kind of a bug that seemed like a legit solution (which would have been funny) or the gate being inaccessible now is actually a bug that needs fixing, so maybe good to ask @Scenario or someone. What's up with that.

PS: Unless of course I completely imagined it or I dreamed about it, but geez, I wouldn't say it's likely!

Seems like it might be a bug, yeah... either the door isn't meant to be locked or there was a door slipped into the Vales version of Goblin Town that maybe wasn't meant to be there. In any case, I would love to see the lock removed... it feels like this one would be a super easy fix.

[seekingerin]

One more comparison screenshot. This change surprised me. This is taken just south of Stock; it's a view south along the Brandywine. There's a pair of mountains that apparently weren't present when Scenario did his Casual Stroll Through the Shire in May 2021. I've also included a screenshot taken as far south along the Anduin as it's currently possible to swim that shows that the mountains are clearly on the west side of the river, in the Southfarthing area. I doubt this means that we're going to also get the Southfarthing as part of the next update; I think they're probably just developing the Southfarthing landscape enough that it will look like a believable landscape from the east side of the Brandywine. That suggests to me that the new area will probably extend all the way west to the Brandywine, which I know is something that people have wondered about in this thread.

[TesalionLortus]

Interesting. Or they're doing both, actually. Have the landscape prepared so it's polished enough when new regions become accessible and you can take an early look at Sauthfarthing landscape. AND start preparations for the Southfarthing anyway, since maybe that's where we go next which would be very likely if we assume that we're actually getting Frodo's journey back home as the continuation of the Epic (only we take the detour through this new landscape rather than continue to Eregion). I can actually see this work very well story-wise. Gandalf, Aragorn, Frodo and company hit the road through Dunland but it makes Aragorn wonder what the heck is out there, on the "Royal Road" and shares his reasons why he wouldn't risk taking that road, not yet, until we scout it for him so he has an idea how to handle that place, now that he is king. Since all of the half orcs are purring from there... it would be an actual backstory/setup for the Scouring and setting a stage for the final Saruman's character arc. Maybe. Since the Royal Road is seemingly such a huge piece of content, I wouldn't leap into conclusions that it's just "random" simply because they want to fill-in-the-gaps. That, and a potential tale of the Forging and Eregion.

[Curuer_Bauglir]

At first glance, I thought with Car Bronach and Elderslade that you could follow the Anduin - Great River - all the way from its distant headwaters in the North to where it enters the Bay of Belfalas.

But, this isn't strictly true. You can follow the water all the way - but not the river. The troublesome spot is the Mouths of the Entwash in the Beacon Hills in Far Anorien. Those blasted artificial reeds prevent you from following the Great River - and I mean only the Great River - from Rauros down to the fringes of Taur Druadan before entering Talath Anor and so on.

So, that's another example of an area they'd need to clean up to "complete the trail" if you will. I think the Gondor map would make the most sense for these- to just have Emyn Muil / Wetwang be level 100 like the adjacent Dead Marshes or maybe level 95-100 as an alternative to West Gondor or something - and then just use a portal or clicky-portal of some sort to go from Parth Galen to Amon Lhaw and climb up into the hills from there.

There are actually a few problem spots along the Anduin. I got bored one day and decided the swim the length of the Anduin beginning in the Wells of Langflood, as this was the furthest north the river extended at the time. There is an insta-death wall between the Vales and Lorien. The transition between Lorien and the Great River region is also impassible. I'm wondering if this is leftover from the days where you needed a certain rep level to reach certain parts of Lorien. I really had to do some navigating to get through Osgiliath, but it is possible. The Beacon Hills was definitely a slog. You could navigate the water, but as you said, it's not really clear whether you're still on the Anduin or the Entwash or Mering Stream, and the transition from the Beacon Hills map to the Far Anorien map is poorly done. There was one area in the Ethir Anduin where the river was randomly blocked by an invisible wall, so I had to hop on my horse for a bit before I could rejoin the river.

[Brutus778]

Wow, this thread is an absolute goldmine!

Thank you all who contributed (and sorry to the devs that we're ever hungry for leaks & information about the future).