*Enraged Fangirl* Some words about THAT quest in the Angle

[Efala]

Spoiler warning for the arc "Suspicious Signs in the Angle"! Do read if you love the Rangers, because I don't recommend you learn of it the hard way.

So forgive me if I proclaim to be a diehard Dúnedain fan but just began the Angle this past week! Because of Reasons I was delayed six months, like being too busy, and one that directly relate to the subject of this post: I've lost enthusiasm for new content in the game, because as an almost twelve-year-player, the new content doesn't feel as canon. I noticed the shift in the devs' priorities in the North Downs overhaul of 2014, which was from storytelling to game mechanics: many quests were removed or reworked, often to the extent that their spirit & often logic was butchered, and the skill descriptions were rewritten to the liking of a gamer who gives no attention to the plot at all (sorry, I've never gotten over that.) I feel that all the content since has followed that scheme, though still with some glorious moments, but past the conclusion of Volume IV I think the stories have deviated so far from Lotro's own canon that I can no longer take them seriously.
So getting back to the point of this post: I was still looking forward to the Angle, although without the euphoria I would have had five years ago , and I enjoyed it right up to that quest arc, "Suspicious Signs in the Angle." Over every way Lotro's stories have bent Tolkien's canon, or even its own, the last quest in this crossed a line. (pun not intended with its title)

From the beginning of this region, a big dent in the plot was the openness of the Rangers--a people who are supposed to be wary & slow to trust, despite their nobility & sweetness that runs from their seductive hood to their precious little boots--and that was most present in this storyline. In this case, the Dunlendings were also strangely trusting; the core of this quest arc was a bunch of strangers from warring factions who ask each other for help, with only an acknowledgement "hey it's a risk to ask you for help but im doing it." But finally, "At a Crossroads" defiled the essence of the Dúnedain lore. I can't even bend it to make sense:

• Under no circumstances have the Northern Dúnedain ever killed one of their own, nor did they see reason for such: there was no basis for such a thing in the books, and Lotro faithfully portrayed this nobility up to this quest. Even in the worst scenarios, the Dúnedain held true to each other; Toradan & Reniolind lost their lives to Amdir, due to desperate hope even when he was half-wraith; when Golodir sank towards madness after his long imprisonment by Mordirith, the Grey Company stood by him to his end.
• Lagordal's "betrayal" isn't plain, here: the PC is a more convincing traitor than he is. The PC is the one whose been running around serving these Dunlendings. Lagordal offered one of them a very similar deal: take what you want and leave the Angle & its people alone. The Dunlending spy wanted to kill the Cuan-luth, and for all Lagordal knows (and the PC, for the matter; so what you killed a few crebain?) the Cuan-luth could also be servants of Saruman, and the spy is hunting them over internal quarrels.
  Consider his dialogue:
  
  Lagordal says, "This man is one of the fugitives you seek, yes? I can direct you to the rest."
  Lagordal says, "If you take them and leave, I'll let you go peacefully."
  Dunlending Spy says, "Why would a Ranger like you help me?"
  Lagordal says, "Do not mistake this for help."
  Lagordal says, "The Dúnedain have enough worries to tend."
  Lagordal says, "These fugitives are just one more problem to solve."
  (BTW I couldn't resist correcting grammar here, which doesn't align with the classic Evendim content)
  This doesn't exactly say "heh heh i'm in league with Saruman! screw my people!!" And we don't know what he's not saying; perhaps Lagordal sought to manipulate the spy, although such indirectness isn't the usual way of the Dúnedain, but this plot has already strayed from the usual.
• Not to mention the total canon-break that is the absence of the Rangers in their own town: the PC & Dunlendings walk up to Lagordal & Other Dunlendings with no hindrance. I first thought the Dúnedain were spying, although it's odd they would allow strangers to trespass, but ultimately no spying Rangers reveal themselves; the other three walk up to Lagordal entirely as "what's going on here??"
• So ultimately, there was no logic in which the Dúnedain would hand over one of their own with no questions asked, least of all for execution. They expressed no idea of what was happening (within their own town...), and accepted the words of the PC and a few Dunlendings over their own kin. I can't stress that enough, nor should I have need. And then they just turn their backs...and leave us outsiders to escort ourselves out of town?!!

Yes, this unmade my day, and my week. I can't shrug off a lore-break of this scale, unlike so many lesser quirks.
I'm surprised there are no threads about this already on the forum or the subreddit. Does anyone have any thoughts to share?

[TesalionLortus]

You raised some good points here but I wouldn't call it an enraging lore break, more like a bit awkward and could have been more clear - also can appear awkward due to the lack of clear communication between you and Dunedain quest givers between that final encounter and Dunlending quests. Then again, I guess that lack of communication actually gives you a hint - Lagordal is the only one who knows so he probably took care there were no rangers at the meeting spot, later they must have easily figured out his behavior was indeed suspicious prior to the encounter, which further proves his guilt. Now this fact should have been more clear. As for trust... PC had already run into some Eriador rangers, Strider and even sons of Elrond, it would be safe to assume they sent word to Tornhad to confirm we are very trustworthy, so the rangers know (not sure, perhaps that was even confirmed in the questline somewhere? but if not, that's another small detail that could have been more clear), even though technically many of them see PC for the first time, but then again, PC is quick to prove their skill with the tasks they give them. PC has been through entire questline and got to know this particular branch of Dunlendings, there is nothing odd with the rangers putting their trust into PC. As for Lagordal getting executed... is a bit controversial because yeah, he didn't really mean much harm, but if you don't immediately jump to senseless conclusion that those rangers have no reason to trust PC or should suspect PC betrayed them or lied - you should note they did hear PC's account of everything that happened and realized these Dunlendings who really want nothing to do with Saruman were kind of badly mistreated here, since Cariad approached in peace and was met with such treachery. Since said treachery was also against Dunedain - he went behind their backs literally because maybe he realized they wouldn't allow for this? right? - I can see their reluctant but neutral allowance for execution as a way to try and defuse the situation viable under the circumstances. Otherwise they would be showing a middle finger to a potential new enemy that they have no reason to become hostile with, not to mention these Dunlendings might even turn into friends eventually as proven by Cariad who wanted to approach them in peace. Since they've already heard the account of everything and we established PC is indeed trustworthy, no reason to suspect otherwise, their "We'll take him and question him" might come off as a bit hypocritical meaning "We'll think of what we do with you, who knows, maybe you'll escape punishment if you come to your senses, who cares about some Dunlendings" whereas these Dunlendings feel they're obligated to justice and the Dunedain can even understand that. So the hard call is made

So yes and no. It could have been more polished but it didn't bother me as much, and certainly not "enraging lore break." Also, to assume that all rangers are perfect, ever-present, never faced with a conundrum or hard calls would be wrong. Also, I bet Lagordal is SSG's way of showing there might be indeed some hurtful prejudices amongs the Free Peoples/Dunedain about the Dunlendings - which wouldn't be completely without reason given the past history - but still bad call and a path towards evil if you let it cloud your judgment and antagonize the ones that might otherwise turn out to be peaceful. And that's their way of showing it, you know, without turning all of the rangers into prejudice driven douchebags which would inevitably happen if they just turned on these justice seeking Dunlendings because "ba, even with PC's insight we can't be sure of your true intention, die, better safe than sorry!"

[alwaysbroke]

I learned early on to make my own canon with RP. This requires being flexible with canon. I've learnt to extend this flexibility to SSG, and if it isn't perfect I rewrite it (in my own canon). I haven't played as long as you though.

[Froyo_K_Baggins]

I do notice that Cordovan has no problems with people self-identify. Only if you point out his friends fit that description are you given a lifetime ban with no warning.

[auximenes]

I do notice that Cordovan has no problems with people self-identify. Only if you point out his friends fit that description are you given a lifetime ban with no warning.

What are you rambling on about? How is this relevant to this thread?

[Efala]

I do notice that Cordovan has no problems with people self-identify. Only if you point out his friends fit that description are you given a lifetime ban with no warning.

What are you rambling on about? How is this relevant to this thread?

I reread that five times and can't even make sense of it??

[Efala]

Nice reply @TesalionLortus, but I think the original points are stronger than I first stated:

• PC is a virtually a stranger, granted: this single chain mostly revolved around the Dunlendings, and the only Ranger involved was Lagordal, and there are no prerequisites; the chain alone doesn't establish trust with the Rangers, and even if the other quests in the region were prereqs, they are too short & weak in story to establish much trust either. Nor is there evidence that anyone in Tornhad knows of PC from outer lands: all of the quests greet him/her as a stranger, and remember the Silithar questline in which a handwritten note directly from Aragorn was not enough to claim a stone. It's a staunch comparison to a word battle over the life of their kinsmen.
• Putting aside the canon negligence that no other Rangers were aware of happenings in their own town, Lagordal was the only one who witnessed Cariad's approach, that was allegedly peaceful in his perspective. So when more Rangers finally manifest, it's just a matter of word-against-word between some Dunlendings, a new friend, and their kinsman.
• For all the circumstances, execution is extreme, especially in the fashion this happened. I can't think of any material in the past fifteen years or the current quest chain that can explain it away. It hardly feels worth elaboration, and I can't restate my original post any better.

@alwaysbroke, Lol, I never met a soul that doesn't rewrite canon. It doesn't dismiss the issue here, though. I feel I put more thought into these posts than the writers did in all of the Angle quests.

[TesalionLortus]

Well, I don't remember every detail about the quest chain now, so yeah, probably. As I said, I do get the idea (and the resolution and how it could be viable), but it seems it wasn't polished enough at parts, more detail would be needed, especially regarding the establishment of trust between PC and rangers in the required amount (so like, let the player know we're kind of famous or whatever, like they've heard of our exploits and such in much detail, don't leave it to "maybe? did they? but state it strongly enough that would help a lot)

[Hastran]

I do notice that Cordovan has no problems with people self-identify. Only if you point out his friends fit that description are you given a lifetime ban with no warning.

Maybe try sticking to the topic instead of wandering so very, very far astray.

[Trientalis]

It's late, and I couldn't read and digest all of the detailed comments people posted here. But I will say that the Dunedain are men, just like the Rohirrim and the Gondorians. Gondorians and the Dunedain both descend from the men of Numenor. Both the Rohirrim and the Gondorians had "traitors" or quislings. All people have bad apples, and it's actually surprising that this may be the first time we've seen a truly bad apple amongst the Dunedain.

I did find the quest chain a little confusing at the the conclusion. But I think it does a disservice to the Dunedain as human beings to say none of them would ever find a reason to go to the "Dark Side". I think the story line would have been more compelling had we been given more of the back story of how a Dunadan came to serve the enemy. But in no way do I think the lore was broken. After all, even one of the Istari was 'turned' - Saruman!

[Phantion]

Yeah, and I'd also say that Tornhad is vastly depopulated because......... the Dúnedain are frankly in very low numbers compared to their former glory as Arnor AND they are scattered across Eriador!

There was a crew at Sarn Ford that got scared out by the Nazgul; there's only a handful of rangers in Bree-land, just Candaith in the Lone-Lands, and most have mobilized to either Esteldin, Annuminas, and/or the Ettenmoors. So the Angle is having a ranger shortage as the majority of the Dúnedain have other duties they are tending to.

Now........... I do find it strange that it would be left that unguarded. Surely Lord Elrond could have spared some guards from Imladris to keep watch over them? That part was a bit strange; I mean, the Dúnedain and Elves are allies even if they don't really live together (*save of course for the heirs of Elendil).



I do think though........ the main writing flaw is this (SPOILERS ABOUND):











These quests were written with the rest of the game in mind and only make some sense.......... for a level cap player playing them far above their level. You know the Cuan-Luth aren't Saruman's spies because you've gone to Wulf's Cleft and never encountered them in Dunland; you know the Dunlending spy is evil because he really is serving Saruman, and you know Lagordal is evil because he's helping the Dunlending spy find-out the Cuan-Luth to butcher them on Saruman's behalf, thus betraying his own oath to the Dúnedain and not even worthy of speech with Aragorn, especially........ by stark comparison with Lothrandir who endured the worst of Saruman's torments in Isengard itself, betrayed by the Falcons and Lheu Brenin.

My point: If you've played through Evendim, ND, RoI, etc., the quests can read as making sense for that very reason. The problem............... is that's out of whack with the timeline. None of those events "happen" until after the Angle business, and that's where the OP's logic is valid: these quests clearly were not written for a player just encountering this world for the first time. They just weren't, and so, they don't go along very well with the other material.

It's like the intentional goof with a certain Elf whom we meet in the Angle and later learn passed-by gifting paintings in Yondershire - when the Yondershire quests are frankly a lower-level than the Angle ones, which means that in reverse they make no sense. So, it's like these were written for level cap players playing them as grey quests versus lower-level players encountering them for the first time. . . . they only make sense when you can "assume" the knowledge you'd need to understand them (*which is to say, yeah, those Cuan-Luth are innocent like the Algraig, and they are plainly fleeing Saruman's war as they are very far from Dunland, and so on and so forth ---> but we only know that if we have encyclopedic knowledge of the "higher level content" that was developed first- LOL! When we strip away that "assumed knowledge," then none of it makes sense because........... we aren't supposed to be trusted by the Dúnedain yet, and we aren't supposed to know everything about Dunland's tribes quite yet, nor Saruman's doings, and so on and so forth).

It would be like writing a prequel that's solely dependent on knowledge of the sequel . . . which is very flawed writing; the "prequel" should stand on its own accord and merits, no matter what it's a prequel to.

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

These quests were written with the rest of the game in mind and only make some sense.......... for a level cap player playing them far above their level.

LOL. Yeah, something like that. The characterization and intentions behind the plot and how it was resolved weren't necessarily bad writing but - at this point in the timeline - it lacks so much context that a player on cap simply has from the get go that it comes across as shallow and not very detailed. If you are not on cap or otherwise, if you are picky. That's why I said it could have been more detailed and better conveyed, really could have used a more in-depth approach. But, in general, I liked the twist and the racial/ethnic issues being raised here and how historical hostilities may turn a ranger into an unwitting supporter of the Enemy's machinations.

[Vilan]

Just getting around to doing the Angle thanks to the free quest giveaway.

My goodness, this quest is terrible.

Lagordal: "You're a Dunlending looking to get rid of some other Dunlendings? Sounds good, that'll keep us rangers safer."

Every other ranger: "DIE TRAITOR!"

Me: "..."

At worst, Lagordal has been misled by not realizing the Cuar-Luth are fugitives from Saruman. An explanation from you should set that straight. But apparently he's in league with Saruman or something? It's not at all clear what's going on. But the rangers just casually turn him over for execution because some Dunlendings say so. Wow.