Opening the Communication Lines

[Neinda]

In an effort to clarify a bit, do you feel like it's the pace of ballads that's causing these problems?

Just the total number of keystrokes now needed to get the ballads up and running all while you are still required to use those pesky heal skills. And if someone dies, you have to start over to get them up and running with buffs somehow. I think you could get the same end result with fewer keystrokes over the same time frame. While SSG went with let's change up the mini, they kept too many things in place such as ballads first then anthems when there is no real need for that if they just wanted the anthems to take longer before they were effective. I tend to go with the kiss principle, keep it simple stupid.

For DPS, yes, the DPS is better if you can spam and mash the keyboard but for those like me not fast enough on the keyboard, losing piercing cry stun makes a difference. The stun gave me the chance to pause a second or two. I guess I could go melody but you sacrifice there too. Melody stance always has been sort of meh. Nothing in this change has made melody stance exciting and a must have. Melody is the new yellow line as far as I can tell.

It is what SSG has decided they want the mini to be and the current configuration is painful to my hands so my mini is enjoying her retirement for a bit.

[Arnenna]

Hi everyone. Let’s get a few things straight.

As Cordovan has stated before, we don’t have the resources to host and moderate an official Discord server. That said, there are several public Discord servers where some developers watch feedback or interact with players. Both the ‘Ghyniverse’ and the ‘Lotro Community’ Discords have large numbers of active players and, along with the forums, are helpful tools for engaging with the player community.

Next time you add a thread here on the official boards, and also decide to chat out in Discord channels, would you kindly post the Discord server information into the thread please, so players know where to look.

While I don’t appreciate a single quotation being taken out of context here, it should be clear that this comment was not meant to be taken seriously. I apologize if it hurt anyone’s feelings; some folks were upset about the lack of a new raid, and I was making light of the fact that class changes are 'technically' content, as they change how you engage with existing encounters (also a little tongue-in-cheek, considering the minstrel class plays nearly the same now as it did prior to 33.2).

The comment didn't bother me, I saw it for what it was. I did see the potential for it to peeve some players though, hence I didn't re-quote it in my responses.

And as I’ve said before, many things about the recent minstrel revision were changed explicitly due to feedback from non-raider players. Keeping track of Anthems and slow inductions in particular were addressed by significant changes I made (with no small amount of effort). In other cases, like the Piercing Cry stun, it’s simply better for the overall health of the game. The Dissonance, red-line minstrel is not a CC-support class, and though I know many of you were upset to lose it, it didn’t make sense for minstrels to have access to stronger and more frequent stuns than classes which are designed around that paradigm, like Lore-masters and Burglars. In other cases, feedback was contradictory, such as telling me that Piercing Cry must keep its stun, but that improved damage also makes the game too easy.

Minstrels played that way for over a decade. Whether that was the correct format or not, who knows, but it was a massive change for some players to deal with. I've already got used to a different form of play without it, but some, particularly those who don't ever venture their minstrels into melee are struggling with the change.

Also, the changes to anthems have made it very difficult for levelling or non valaring minstrels to get their class deeds done. Perhaps that was something that got overlooked on the roadmap.

At the end of the day, not everyone will be pleased by every change. We’re also, as individuals, unable to respond to each and every comment, but that does not mean we’re not listening. I have always stated that I appreciate any and all feedback, and I consider all feedback seriously. You are all players of the game, and we value your insight. Comments like ‘changes are set in stone’ or ‘SSG never listens to any feedback’ do us all a disservice. We all love this game, and we all want to improve it and for it to succeed, for all of its players, from the new-to-MMOs individuals just dipping their toes into the water, to the folks who’ve found a second home in this community, to those who’ve spent countless hours rigorously testing mechanics and diagramming out hidden systems, to the raiders and PvPers who relentlessly push the limits of their builds and their mastery of each class. Please keep that in mind going forward, and know that we’re all on the same team here.

This is exactly as it should be. It's something that some players need to be reminded about quite often. I've seen high enders use the "get gud, learn to play" card and the more casual use the "elitist" card too many times to count and I've sat on both sides of that fence throughout my time in the game without having to ever resort to it. All feedback should be valuable and equal.

[Bio-Flame]

For OnnMacMahal and other players:


I don't feel that being a raider or casual has more or less weight on feedback but here it goes:
I am a raider, did most raids on T3 at least, some on T4, others on T5.
HoA I've done full T3 clear, and downed T4 B1 (easy).


I have been playing my Mini for more than a decade now, and I am fairly proficient at it.
This shouldn't give my arguments more or less weight though. They should stand on their own.



Now that is out of the way:

I have always stated that I appreciate any and all feedback, and I consider all feedback seriously. You are all players of the game, and we value your insight. Comments like ‘changes are set in stone’ or ‘SSG never listens to any feedback’ do us all a disservice.

I am sorry, but this is factually incorrect. Orion said the changes were "set in stone", not the players
You yourself said, and I quote "The decision to make the yellow trait line passive was set in stone before things hit beta; that is true.".
I don't think it is fair to throw this on us, the players.

While I don’t appreciate a single quotation being taken out of context here, it should be clear that this comment was not meant to be taken seriously. I apologize if it hurt anyone’s feelings; some folks were upset about the lack of a new raid, and I was making light of the fact that class changes are 'technically' content, as they change how you engage with existing encounters (also a little tongue-in-cheek, considering the minstrel class plays nearly the same now as it did prior to 33.2).

I am giving you a (very deserved) hard time on very poor communication on the Mini changes but I believe you when you say it was taken out of context. Maybe a joke on poor taste but nothing more.
Not bothered with that quote, at all.


However, the part where you try to say that the Minstrel class plays nearly the same is simply not true.
For you, maybe you can't feel it. You probably have not played the class as we did, for more than a decade and maybe you can't feel its nuances and the changes. Maybe for you it plays "nearly the same".
But for many players, it does not. In fact, many players do not agree with you.


You have 18 pages of feedback complaining about the changes, telling you that the class is unfun now, clunky and a button smasher.
Not only on the official thread but also on random threads on the forums, people are complaining about how much more unfun it is now.
You asked for feedback and You got it. It was and still is overwhelmingly negative.



Allow me to do a quick recap:
I counted replies on the 17 pages of that thread, spliting into "Positive reaction", "Mixed Reaction, "Negative Reaction". I discounted people that posted multiple times, except after OnnMacMahal posted changes. And then, I've only counted the same people once more. I even only counted myself once.
I discarded the replies that did not give feedback - the conversation about threat, about Hunters, etc.


So:
1- Positive reactions = 15 (~13%)
2- Mixed Reactions = 27 (~23%)
3- Negative Reactions = 75 (~64%)



I am not even counting the threads of players saying they dislike your changes so much that they stopped playing it. Ask Cordovan, there's a few of those posts around here on the forums.
75 negative replies versus only 15 positive. How is it possible to deny players did not like your changes?

The fact is, players disliked your changes. They disliked them a lot. One might even say that Hated is a word that is being thrown around.
It's a harsh truth but it is the truth nonetless.



I believe you mean well, but your error is not taking our feedback into consideration.
Instead, you try to explain to players, to us that have been on this game for 14 years, that "Mini players nearly the same". It does not. It really does not. Players are randomly posting threads saying it's so much more unfun now, feels so clunky that they are not playing Mini anymore.


And You did not try to understand what was bothering us.
It's the Anthems and button smashing. We want to heal, not to faceroll on the keyboard every 25 scds.



You were too busy posting on discord, whilst leaving your own thread without any responses for 5 days in a row WHILE at the same time still finding time to post on discord.
Worse, you asked us to give you more feedback, only to not reply again on that thread. We were informed by Cordovan that the update was being pushed to live and thus, all our time and effort was basically for naught.
To recap: You first wasted our time when you asked for feedback and then proceeded to ignore your own thread. And then, you did the same thing again, when you asked for feedback and not ONE reply before it going live.



The way you treated us on that thread, started all this mess. Unfortunately, that's how this all started.
I wish it had been differently handled. I wish you wouldn't have been posting on discord for days and then telling us you were too busy to post on the official forums.

Before 33.2, maximizing anthem uptime meant you had to to press ~3 skills every 2-3 minutes. Now, maximizing anthems requires pressing 2-3 skills every 60-90 seconds. The overall frequency of key presses increased slightly, but the much more significant difference is that you can't press all your anthems in a row now. Aside from that change (which actually reduced the speed at which you could click all your anthem skills) I'm not sure how the class is more of a 'button masher.'-

OnnMacMAhal: this is not true. How can you say this?
Anthems lasted for almost 3 minutes, and we could do them all in 4 scds and be done with them.
And now? Now a player now has to do 1 ballad, then one anthem, then coda+cry of chorus, then the second pair of Anthem I, then 1st anthem of the second pair, then anthem of free peoples, then reapply one of the anthems of the first pair, then apply the 2nd anthem of the second pair.... and now the anthems are set.....ufffff

(And the anoying shared cooldown.... gaaaaaah. My god, the shared cooldown. Why, to anoy us?).


The amount of key presses is significantly increased. And then the player needs to keep reaplying them every 25scds or so, to keep them all up.
How is it NOT very different? How is it NOT completely different?


But the worst part is: it's boring. It's clunky. It's unfun.
How many times have the players to tell you that for you to actually understand it?
Maybe for you is fun. Maybe for other classes used to facerolling on the keyboard it is fun.
More power to them I say. But Mini players disliked it a lot.
Again, 63% negative feedback versus 15% positive. It's clear players didn't like your changes, especially to Anthems.




The problem, and this is the reason we are here I guess, is that you took something away from the players. We had been playing the "Blue Mini playstyle" for many years now. And you took that away from us. For better or for worse, but you did take it away from us.
You took "our toy" away, so to speak, and you replaced it with something "better" in your personal view. But we didn't want "something better", we wanted our Mini.



Let me put it this way: there are arguably more recent, better games than LOTRO. Shinier. But we are NOT playing them, we have been playing lotro for 15 years now, despite the fact that there are newer games out there. Why? Because we enjoy "our toy".
If someone would come here and took LOTRO from us and told us "here is GW2/FFIV/OW/ go play it instead", we wouldn't enjoy it neither.


Unfortunately, that is what you did in a way. You took our old beloved toy from us.
He's not the same anymore.
Again, maybe not for you because you haven't been playing Minis for nearly as long as we did and you don't have the memories and emotions attached to it.
But we do.
And a majority of players did not enjoy the needless changes.




PS - Please don't say we didn't offer solutions. Solutions, suggestions and ideas were sugested to you, many times. You were offered player's help in revising the changes, you were asked to halt the changes for a bit until we tested them even more.
Despite that,You simply decided that your way to play mini is a better way.
It's "nearly the same"...no, it is not sadly.

[Bio-Flame]

One more thing:


OnnMacMahal: you probably can't understand how frustrating it is to be playing your Main for more than a decade and have it become transformed into a button smasher that is so different from the original, that you have to stop playing it.


As a raider: I am glad Mini is more powerful. So as long as I don't have to play it. I pity the poor sod that has to faceroll on the keyboard to "Anthem up".
As a player, mini main for more than a decade: I am very frustrated and sad that I don't enjoy it anymore because a Dev that has a tenuous grasp on what makes a Blue Mini player "tick", decided to randomly change it. For no good reason and in a direction no player asked for.


The worst/saddest/truest feedback I can tell you is: your changes sucked the fun of my Main character to the point I can't play it anymore. And like me, other players feel it as well.
And it feels incredibly frustrating, even more so because we tried helping you but it was like talking to a wall.
Instead of trying to understand us, you only explained to us how this new Mini was "nearly the same".



Well, 63% of the players on the Beta Forums strongly disagree with you. But you did it anway. And started this whole comunication mess.
And here we are.

[DoRonRon]

Great news, we have a Dev who didn't shrink away to plot revenge

I jest ofc.

The plan remains to have all the main trait builds group/raid viable. So likely all have to wait until complete before the "Landscape" is readied to meet those gains? Now my question would be is that to be restricted to the 141 - 150 content a year away or for all the regions of the game?

The lack of attention to the elder game falls well short of preparing players for the late game. We can signpost the dangers of the minefield that comes at cap-10 but that's seems to me to be harvest time for SSG. Is that what keeps the wheels turning only?

It's just that I don't want my challenges to be based on "grouping" with the ill-prepared or clueless, so I solo to make sure. Too many of them and more each day arriving on valar express trains.

[Blunte]

Heh, nice try, but nope.

I've been in business for 3 1/2 decades, and whenever someone says "Oh, this comment was not meant to be taken seriously because...", they Absolutely meant that, and had to walk it back later. Every time. Even me once. If that single quotation was not a problem, it would not have been addressed again.



---------------------------

While I don’t appreciate a single quotation being taken out of context here, it should be clear that this comment was not meant to be taken seriously. I apologize if it hurt anyone’s feelings; some folks were upset about the lack of a new raid, and I was making light of the fact that class changes are 'technically' content, as they change how you engage with existing encounters (also a little tongue-in-cheek, considering the minstrel class plays nearly the same now as it did prior to 33.2).

[DoRonRon]

Sorry if it looks like a second post in a row. At time of writing, it isn't.

You know, there a lot of info out there about ideal builds for raiding content. All finely tuned but very much tied to access to equipment; gear, slot available, tracery colour and trait points. And why it's incongruous to have the real casual landscapers refer to such builds or somehow attempt to employ them, on landscape.

Some of us finely tune our builds particularly for landscape and obtain the best gear that our choice limits us to and tweaks them after assessing additions to the game, such and Words and Heraldry this season. I'm considering the right balance of bleeds, single target, AOE, criticals for each also, target count, range and the combination of trait and tracery choices to approach some ideal. Not about reaching Mission instance lock but how close to the half an hour it pops up.

The aforementioned "wrecking ball" is my Minstrel doing solo content whether I buff anthems or not. Seeking out a couple mobs to lag-buff a couple of choice only slows me down. The strength of anthems is ofc in bringing those buffs to others you are grouped with and receiving their buffs in return. Not so much to offer a lone character and if levelling tough to apply until you get your character to 54 for ICotC's reset and LIs at 46 for it's tracery CD and deep into a tertiary tree for anthem lengths that may not appeal at first sight. Maybe put it off until approaching the endgame maybe? Just when you hit a mountain of other concerns!
Then, as I mentioned elsewhere, the tune of a bolster made on a harp or theorbo against that of an Inspire Fellows could influence a choice to make on my MT.

[Askelin]

Here's the problem. People who are getting info on discord give SSG rave reviews about interacting with the player base. Are they sharing anything useful or different? No idea. I didn't even know there was a discord being used by devs until all this mini stuff occurred so I really don't know if I missed any key information. Telling me that the discord folks did all the back and forth with the details and those of us on the forums got the finalized version doesn't really sell the idea. It is all about appearances. If it appears there are secrets, people will believe the worst. Avoiding those things that cause people to believe there are secret communications happening would solve some of the current animosity. It won't make things perfect but baby steps forward are better than giant steps backward.

There's nothing secret about it though, it's a public server. Anyone can join. Information is often shared on the forums by players who read both the discord and the forums, there's a LOT of people lurking after all.
There are threads to discuss things, there are threads players can make too, just because a developer doesn't respond, it doesn't mean they're not reading it.

Is it all about appearances though? What matters is that the developers get useful feedback, and if they find that outside the forums and make competent changes because of it, it's ultimately good. A lot of the complaints here really come across as "well WE weren't personally asked", you were and still are, there are threads on the forums, the bullroarer forum is read and communicated on during testing. Opening the communications should mean opening the communication lines, not restricting feedback to just one, outdated avenue just because people on the forums get angry when the developers talk outside of it. It causes unnecessary drama as people start coming up with crazy theories such as "it's a secret channel". It's not.

As for the feedback itself, a lot of experienced, knowledgeable and frankly, skilled players are providing it through the discord. When it comes to say a PvMP change, they want feedback from people who play PvMP, they don't want people saying things like "you shouldn't even be working on it in the first place", I've seen plenty of derrailing posts on the forums that just get into arguments with other players about PvMP as a whole which causes discussion to shift from providing feedback to just flat out arguing over PvMPers vs Non PvMPers... Bit like how this thread went from offering a hand to players saying "yes, we want to be more open", and then certain people wash their hands with the way they're doing it, getting legit mad because they're talking outside of Discord.
Minstrel feedback was taken on the forums, a lot of valid concerns were raised, there were also a lot of people who took one glance at the changelogs, didn't bother to actually test it then got charged up over it, without really understanding the nuance behind those changes.

Using Discord isn't even all that new, there have been community managed Discords for a long while. Fantus even made a discord server for feedback regarding his initial PvMP changes, it had the issue of almost zero moderation and he did decide to close it afterwards, but Ghyn's server at least has moderators who can be trusted to keep things in order without going overboard or trying to worm their way into the devs' ears. And both Orion and OnnMM seem to have the brains to disregard the things that aren't relevant to them.

And my God, no one can take a joke or an apology anymore, why should the developers even listen to people who can't in good faith communicate with some sort of respect? Instead of talking about the game's development and providing relevant feedback, people are picking apart every post a developer makes here and are trying to argue that they're talking wrong, and that their apology isn't good enough, and that they should adhere to their own personal idea of what good communication is. If anything, that'll encourage less communication here because it's more hassle to respond to every post directed at them than it is to just actually work on the game.

They don't have to respond to everyone, and they don't even have to post here if they didn't want to. We could go back to sheer silence, with communication only ever happening in a literal secret Palantir subforum, filled with mostly players who only applied for clout. Then, the only information we get are from actual NDA leaks, which is less reliable and even more frustrating for both the developers and players.

I for one think the openness is much better, much more reliable and allows people to provide better feedback while knowing what's coming down the line a bit more earlier. But some people are getting big mad over it. And this all kicked off because someone thought themselves very clever by screencapping something straight out of context as some sort of "own" to the forumers. Guess there's a divide for a reason, there shouldn't be one in the first place.
You don't even have to join the Discord, they're not out there talking every day, and if you're looking for things to provide feedback on, wait for the Bullroarer that's coming, join the Bullroarer and engage with the changes, and post on the thread that will be made, just like what we have done for many many years. And that's what the people on the Discord are doing too. You're not really missing out on anything. There's plenty of ways to acquire any bit of info you're interested in.

Heh, nice try, but nope.

I've been in business for 3 1/2 decades, and whenever someone says "Oh, this comment was not meant to be taken seriously because...", they Absolutely meant that, and had to walk it back later. Every time. Even me once. If that single quotation was not a problem, it would not have been addressed again.

You are horrible at your job.

Just wanted to register to tell you that, even though odds are you'll never see it.

But you are horrible at your job.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The sort of self righteous, morally high-horsed 'better than thou' BS that's coming from the mouths of certain people. Bring something to the table that's relevant instead of trying to pick on one, somewhat insignificant post from a developer posted on a discord server, or straight up picking on the developer himself. Are you actually that offended because a developer spoke to people like a human being or are you just trying to be a big boy on the forums?

[Bio-Flame]

.....also a little tongue-in-cheek, considering the minstrel class plays nearly the same now as it did prior to 33.2....

What game are you playing OnnMacMahal?
Have you ever really played a Mini before your changes and all this debacle that you started?
This is an outright false statement. Completely, demonstrably false statement.


Let's review it:
- Anthems are very different now, with shared global cooldowns (/puke), different effects, shorter durations. A button smashing fest, every 25 scds.
- There's also a new Anthem.
- Anthems can't be used before combat now.
- Inspire Fellowship works differently now (the -inc damage was moved into Anthems, changing the way you use Inspire Fellowship).
- Piercing Cry no longer stuns/removes corruptions while in Blue.
- ALL the skills are slower than before, courtesy of the Induction nerfs.
- Ballads are fast skills now and instead of AoE they are Single-Target now.
- Song of Aid is a completely new skill now, totally diferent than before.
- Call to Greatness is different now.

-Obviously: Yellow line spec got destroyed, so that is also different.



Players seriously disliked your needless changes to Blue Mini, you have an 18 page thread that you neglected to reply to. A record 18-page long thread with a whooping 64% negative reaction feedback to it.
You seem completely oblivious to that fact: 64% of the posters on that thread rejected your changes, with 23% mixed replies and only 13% positive feedback. Most complaints are about the Anthems, their global (puke) shared cooldown, lower duration and having to reapply them every 25 scds.



But actually saying out loud that the Mini plays nearly the same? For real?
OnnMacMahal, did you play Mini before your egregious changes?
All the changes that you did and I briefly summarized here, and it plays the same? Do you have any idea of insulting it is to say that to players that had to shelf their Minis because of you?


Regargless if some/a few of the changes are good or not: how can you say with a straight face that "Mini plays nearly the same now as prior to 33.2" ?
I have to consider the fact that you might not even play a Mini or at the very least, you never really understood how to play it well. Your statement is simply, totally false.
It's is the player's number one feedback on the Official Beta forum and also in other threads in the General forum: Minis plays very differently now, feels clunky, and a button-smasher.


You demonstrated very clearly that you have no empathy for players that dislike your changes and you also showed us that you disregard feedback that does not agree with your conception of how a Mini should play.
Unfortunately, you are in charge here and you've shown you are too proud to admit that your changes are egregious and that your changes started this whole mess Lotro is now in.
You have the power on your side.


But please, don't say false statements. Don't try to tell players who play the game longer than you are a Dev, that the "Mini plays nearly the same".
Just say: I want to change Minis, I can and I will. Don't spread falsehoods to us, please.





Seriously, ask some of your co-workers to try out the new Mini and whatever feedback they'll give you, I will find it hard to believe that they would say "the Mini works nearly the same as pre-33.2".

[Fadil]

But actually saying out loud that the Mini plays nearly the same? For real?
OnnMacMahal, did you play Mini before your egregious changes?
All the changes that you did and I briefly summarized here, and it plays the same? .

I have played blue mini as my main for longer than I can remember and yes blue mini plays nearly the same.
The one major difference is really the fact you can not precast anthems, which tbh is very annoying.
Basically the beginning of a boss fight is different, where you need to get your anthems
up and running. Something we didn't have to bother with, before.
After that, it feels exactly the same as before.
You have anthems which you can now cast as pairs (funny how you seem to think the one
game changing result of players' feedback, which every mini who raid heals knows is a MAJOR
improvement is ...meh) and basically you already had 3 anthems to cast before the change.

Inductions...can be tackled with the many induction reduction armour/ traceries.
I dont feel any change here.

Yes you have a new spell, how one new spell which is kinda good, changes your playstyle, is beyond me.

Instead of attacking a dev you should actually play the mini after the changes instead of
trying one raid and then refusing to play it anymore, thereby
missing how the new mini feels after the update.

Yes, the first raid I healed after the update felt unpleasant, especially
since the first time I was obsessed with getting my anthems up
and it all felt very clunky.
Now, after a few weeks and many raids healed, my blue mini feels better than before the update.
A sentiment I hear in game from other mini raid healers all the time.

Dont get me wrong, you are as entitled to your opinion as I am.
But despite your weeks of frantic posting about the update, you're just one player, just as I am just one player.
Your constant quoting of a thread in which many people showed and admitted they hadnt
tested the changes, doesnt change the fact you're still just one player.

If you healed one raid, and then shelved your mini, I am inclined to say you
dont know how blue mini's play now.

[tanlis]

Seriously, those of you that are still arguing when things were said, what do you hope is going to be accomplished by continuing to post about it? That you're going to get some magical internet points? Or someone's going to give you a cookie?

The things were said when they were said and the changes have been made. Even if OMM or Orion come in and say my bad, we got it wrong. It still doesn't change the past. All it does is make you look like that you can't move on.

So if you want to see adjustments made, start posting in the Mini forum/thread and give feedback on the changes. Code is not set in stone, SSG can and will make adjustments.


Devs, as others have suggested. If you are going to be taking feedback in Discord. Let people know that you will be there.

[Bio-Flame]

I have played blue mini as my main for longer than I can remember and yes blue mini plays nearly the same.
The one major difference is really the fact you can not precast anthems, which tbh is very annoying.
Basically the beginning of a boss fight is different, where you need to get your anthems
up and running. Something we didn't have to bother with, before.
After that, it feels exactly the same as before.
If you healed one raid, and then shelved your mini, I am inclined to say you
dont know how blue mini's play now.

Fadil, dude, you presume to know too much for you own good.
I know what I am talking about. I've played the Mini on T3 HH raid and HoR T4/T5 after the update. Successfully I might add.
And so have many other players and they say the same: it's clunky and unfun. It's a button smasher.


You say it's very annoying to not to be able to precast Anthems and the begining of fights is different.
It' very different. Takes about 90 scds to get everything up and running.
And THEN, you have to refresh them every 20-25 scds (depending on gear and traits).
It's very different. It's undeniably different.
You also can't use Piercing Cry to remove corrs nor stun anymore. Huge difference in raids.
You don't weave Inspire Fellowship -inc damage into your rotation anymore.
Ballads are now fast, single target instead of AoEs. Big difference.
Song of Aid is a completely new skill. Big difference.


How you can come here, like OnnMacMahal and say with a straight face that it's "nearly the same" would make a politician proud.



Thing is, I am just one player, true, but the feedback thread has 64% posts with negative feedback, versus 13% with positive feedback. So clearly there are a lot of people unhappy about it, not just "one player".
You are the one in the minority here, not the dissatisfied customers and players. The majority of players on the Official Feedback thread agree that Mini is not fun to play now.



However, putting my Raider hat on, OF COURSE Minis are more powerful now. Anthems being raid wide is a huge change. It's almost as if OnnMacMahal tried to bribe us with buffing the Mini in order to shut us up.
The issue is, nobody in the feedback thread said the Mini needed buffs or that the current Mini is less powerful. Nobody.
The majority of the players are saying a different thing: it's UNFUN, CLUNKY and BORING to play. A chore to spam all those anthems.

As a raider, I like that the Mini is even more OP now. As a Mini player, I hate to play it now. And I am not the only one. It's a boring spam fest.



And OnnMacMahal just royally ignored us all, even though he himself asked for feedback. And feeback he got, just not the one he desired. And OnnMacMahal is too proud to even put the Mini changes on hold for a bit while we all try to find a better way.
No sir. He just ignored us all for 4 more days and then we get the news from Cordovan that the update is being pushed live. OnnMacMahal is yet to post on that thread after he asked us for even more feedback.



Regardless of the changes to Mini and how you feel Fadil, I find it hard to understand how one can defend a Developer that wastes player's time, effort and good-will, a Developer that is not very honest to the player base he himself asked for feedback (the "I don't have time to post on Official forums...but I do have time to post a LOT on Discord" attitude).
How does anyone agree in 2022 that this kind of behaviour and customer interaction is good for business and for the overall good-health of the game is beyond me.

.....
So if you want to see adjustments made, start posting in the Mini forum/thread and give feedback on the changes. Code is not set in stone, SSG can and will make adjustments.

Another one that clearly has not even read 1 page of the official feedback thread.
Tanlins, that thread is currently 18 pages long and still people are posting. We were asked for feedback, and feedback we gave to OnnMacMahal.
The issue is that the feedback wasn't what he wanted or desired, it was overwhelmingly negative (64% of the posts were negative vs only 13% positive)...so he ghosted the Official forums.


So yeah, we gave feedback. We continue to give feedback. We're just being ignored.




Why do you think there's even this thread anyway?
In not a small part due what happened in the Official Feedback thread for Minis.
We are not wrong here, SSG is.


Regardless of your opinion on the Mini changes, what happened on that thread is a poor way to treat a loyal fanbase, your customers.
One should not ask for feedback to then later on completely go silent WHILST still posting on discord.

[Spilo]

One more thing:


OnnMacMahal: you probably can't understand how frustrating it is to be playing your Main for more than a decade and have it become transformed into a button smasher that is so different from the original, that you have to stop playing it.


As a raider: I am glad Mini is more powerful. So as long as I don't have to play it. I pity the poor sod that has to faceroll on the keyboard to "Anthem up".

OnnMacmahal: Breaks down exactly how the changes really don't significantly increase button mashing whatsoever.
You:


If folks in here spent less time buttonmashing your keyboard on the forums and more time reading, I think you'd probably learn something, and your joints would probably feel better.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

Ballads are now fast, single target instead of AoEs. Big difference.

The change to ballads was that Major Ballad is now a TARGETED AoE rather than an AoE that originates from the caster. This allows you to target someone, say, while you're kiting something and have an AoE heal get them and a heal goes off around them as well. Damaging Ballads were always single target as far as I remember.

However, putting my Raider hat on, OF COURSE Minis are more powerful now. Anthems being raid wide is a huge change. It's almost as if OnnMacMahal tried to bribe us with buffing the Mini in order to shut us up.

Anthems were already raid-wide before the recent Minstrel changes. So no change there.

[Neinda]

Whether we are happy campers or have issues with some or all things SSG, my guess here is that we all like LOTRO for whatever reason be it the lore, the game play, friends here, etc. Picking fights with individuals does us all a disservice. Some people like things and are happy with whatever is there or changed. Others are unhappy, frustrated and voicing their opinion. Having different opinions is actually a good thing. All these different points of view can lead to positive change and sharing. Telling someone their opinion or how they feel is wrong because you like/dislike something falls into the not playing nice in the sandbox category. I don't tell others what they should/should not feel or like/dislike. Please give all of us the same consideration. If you keep things to why you like/dislike something, are happy/unhappy with something, etc. the forums will be a better place to voice opinions. Not everything will be greeted by everyone with a happy attitude and smile. Not everything will be greeted by everyone with torches and pitchforks at the gate. Everything we post here is an opinion. For example: Rather than telling me my hands don't hurt because you say so, tell me how you make it work and why it is good. Rather than me saying you are foolish to like something, I need to spell out what I dislike about that something. A business needs to hear both the positive and negative feedback in order to grow and improve. Hearing both positive and negative feedback can help a business focus on adding to the customer base and retaining current customers. SSG needs to know how everyone feels so they can plan and focus on future business plans.

More comments and interaction from SSG is normally a good thing to me so let's try and thank them for joining in the conversations. Many of us asked for more communications from SSG representatives. It really doesn't help when people turn around and attack them for responding. Disagreeing with them or not liking something SSG is doing as a business is one thing. Attacking the devs and others on the forums for not seeing your point of view and agreeing with you is very different. I think most of us are at an age in life where we should have outgrown name calling and playground bullying.

[Fadil]

Fadil, dude, you presume to know too much for you own good.
I know what I am talking about. I've played the Mini on T3 HH raid and HoR T4/T5 after the update. Successfully I might add.

Sorry mate, I’m going on what you yourself posted on these mbs.
A week after the update you posted that you healed a tier 3 raid which went so awful that you shelved your mini for good.
My assumption that you didnt take the time raid healing to get used to the changes, stands.

You say it's very annoying to not to be able to precast Anthems and the begining of fights is different.
It' very different. Takes about 90 scds to get everything up and running.
And THEN, you have to refresh them every 20-25 scds (depending on gear and traits).

So, this is the point where I stop taking you serious.
I cast 1 anthem at the start, anthem of resonance, then after that I use the cd removal of anthems (Cry of the Chorus) and cast anthem of composure.
Then after some time I will cast the second anthems in the pairs, compassion and prowess, which will not only create the pairs, but also refresh the cd on the first anthem you cast.
From that moment on I have 2 pairs running with each a 1:30 cd.
I make it a point (because that’s easier for me) to refresh both pairs at the same time, meaning I have to take 3 actions every 1.30 minutes:
resonance> cry of the chorus>composure. 3 clicks or key binds, however you play.
That’s all, once every 1.30.
And yes, after some raids that starts to feel much smoother and easier.

Now I have a fifth anthem running, so that’s technically two actions every 1.30 minutes.
So your assumption you have to recast every 20-25 sec after you have the anthems up, is just weird
And no this does not depend on gear/ traits, because I don’t know a single raid healer who doesn’t have the correct traits/ traceries.

a Developer that is not very honest to the player base

OnnMacMahal just royally ignored us all, even though he himself asked for feedback.

No he did not. You are the one being dishonest here.

He introduced a MAJOR change from beta 2 to 3, after he took our feedback serious.
He replied to YOU in length on the bullroarer thread, a reply to which you have, until today, not replied.

https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...19#post8157519
You were the one refusing any feedback/ communications, except a NJET!!!/ NO/ NOWAY JOSE.

However, putting my Raider hat on, OF COURSE Minis are more powerful now. Anthems being raid wide is a huge change.

C’mon man, seriously ###?
Let me ask again: do you even HAVE a mini????

[shino047]

It will always seem like every change is bad because people give negative feedback way more easily than positive feedback. Many people including myself didn't give any feedback at all because there was nothing wrong with the minstrel changes

[Technician46]

[QUOTE=Bio-Flame;8161576]For OnnMacMahal and other players:









"OnnMacMAhal: this is not true. How can you say this?
Anthems lasted for almost 3 minutes, and we could do them all in 4 scds and be done with them.
And now? Now a player now has to do 1 ballad, then one anthem, then coda+cry of chorus, then the second pair of Anthem I, then 1st anthem of the second pair, then anthem of free peoples, then reapply one of the anthems of the first pair, then apply the 2nd anthem of the second pair.... and now the anthems are set.....ufffff

(And the anoying shared cooldown.... gaaaaaah. My god, the shared cooldown. Why, to anoy us?).


The amount of key presses is significantly increased. And then the player needs to keep reaplying them every 25scds or so, to keep them all up.
How is it NOT very different? How is it NOT completely different?"


I would have to agree with Bio-Flame here. We are forced to apply anthems more frequently if we want to keep their benefits when we could be applying healing skills instead. Also the increase in inductions along with the new anthem system has made the Minstrel feel a bit more clunky and reduced our healing potential. And let's not forget that we were able to apply anthems pre-battle reducing the use of anthems further.

Perhaps a compromised would be in order? Slightly increase Anthem durations and reduce inductions or perhaps no shared cds. Keep in mind that we are forced to apply anthems because they affect incoming heal, out healing, incoming damage, and reduced inductions so we have no options but to use them if we want to maximize our potential.

P.S. Sorry OnnMacMahal quote didn't transfer over.

[Bio-Flame]

A week after the update you posted that you healed a tier 3 raid which went so awful that you shelved your mini for good.
My assumption that you didnt take the time raid healing to get used to the changes, stands.

Fadil, please stop with the falsehoods.
I said it felt awful, I did not say we didn't make it through. You're assuming too much, you presume to know too much.

It still feels awful, clunky.
Again, there's a lot more players dissatisfied with the state of the Mini. You're in the minority but good for you. I am glad you are pleased.
But a lot more players are not.

Would you stop telling us that we aren't?

So, this is the point where I stop taking you serious.
I cast 1 anthem at the start, anthem of resonance, then after that I use the cd removal of anthems (Cry of the Chorus) and cast anthem of composure.
Then after some time I will cast the second anthems in the pairs, compassion and prowess, which will not only create the pairs, but also refresh the cd on the first anthem you cast.
From that moment on I have 2 pairs running with each a 1:30 cd.
I make it a point (because that’s easier for me) to refresh both pairs at the same time, meaning I have to take 3 actions every 1.30 minutes:
resonance> cry of the chorus>composure. 3 clicks or key binds, however you play.
That’s all, once every 1.30.
And yes, after some raids that starts to feel much smoother and easier.

Now I have a fifth anthem running, so that’s technically two actions every 1.30 minutes.

Fadil, you're talking like a politician. Talking about "actions" instead of keystrokes.


Before: cry of the chorus, cast all 3 anthems in a row (<less 6 scds). Done. 4 Keystrokes, only to be repeated 3 minutes later.


Currently: as you say, start the fight, 1 ballad (1 keystroke), fire up ressonance (2nd keystroke), use cry of the chorus (3rd keystroke), and then fire composure (4th keystroke).
Then, as you say "after some time"....that time is 20-25 scds which you kindly forgot to say, you cast the second pair (5th keystroke).
Then you need to again wait 20-25s and cast the one of the second pair (6th keystroke). After 25scds, you could cast the last Anthem (7h keystroke) and you're set up.
And then, you need to wait 25scds, do 1 anthem, cry of the chorus, second anthem, wait another 25scds and refresh the non-paired anthem.
At this point I don't even want to count the keystrokes anymore.




But interestingly, you're saying "after some time", neglecting to say it's 20-25 scds. You're also saying "two actions", instead of saying "casting 1 anthem, going for cry of the chorus, casting the 2nd anthem"...and THEN still wait 25scds to cast the non-paired anthem.
I am sure it was only merely a mistake when you confused "pressing 3 skills + waiting 25 scds and then using the non-paired anthem" with "two actions. I am sure you meant well and you were definately not white knighting in any way. It was just an honest mistake...




But....
How come this is "nearly the same"? In what universe ? We're pressing a lot of keys just to fire up the anthems, instead of Healing. This isn't how minis used to play. And the reduction to induction speed does not help. Neither does the lack of Piercing Cry to remove corrs and stuns mobs. Nor the song of aid. Nor the ballad's changes. Etc..
It *is* different. Very different.
Lots of players are complaining. Again, check the feedback thread, it is mostly negative feedback and the usual complaint is: clunky, button smasher, unfun.


If this is "nearly the same", why are we here? Why would Orion feel the need to start this thread if all were well and sunshine and unicorns?
If OnnMacMahal's job on the mini was really so good, so splendid, why is it that the feedback thread has 64% negative feedback to it and only 13% positive feedback?


64% of the Mini posters on that thread were not enjoying Mini and playing it badly until OMH came and saved them from their own ignorance?
We weren't enjoying Mini for a decade now but we never knew until update 33.2?



But feel the need to I say it again:
this thread is NOT about the Mini feedback. THere's a thread for that, a thread to which OMH does not reply on for two-three weeks now, but that is why we are here I guess.
This thread is about what is going on about comunication.


And the Mini thread is a very good example on what is going BADLY concerning comunication. Having a Dev not replying for 5 days in a row but during that period he's replying on discord daily...can we really defend that? Is that a way to treat your customers?
If OMH did not want feedback, why create a thread for it then? Why ask players to spend their time and their effort on said feedback, just to be ignored for days...whilst the players are fully aware that the Dev is posting on Discord but not on the forums?
Are we really ok with that?


I guess we aren't, otherwise this thread probably wouldn't have been needed.

[istvana]

You two going back and forth and back and forth saying the same things about the minstrel changes might want to remember that whether those changes were good or bad has nothing to do with the topic. The topic is communications.

Whether SSG properly responded to comments about the changes is on-topic but you have gone far afield indeed from that.

I think it is fair to say that SSG said quite a bit in response to comments on the changes - they didn't ignore them as they have on occasion been known to do.

I think it is fair to say that SSG gave reasons why they were making the changes the way they were and why they disagreed with some of the objections.

I think it is fair to say that some people liked them and some people did not and this was affected in part by style of play.

Compared to the past I think they gave more responses, and the responses went into more detail than has been the norm. That is what is relevant to a thread on communications.

[Fadil]

Fadil, please stop with the falsehoods.
I said it felt awful, I did not say we didn't make it through. You're assuming too much, you presume to know too much.

I literally said that...I never said or assumed you didnt make it through, I mean, can you even read?

It still feels awful, clunky.
Again, there's a lot more players dissatisfied with the state of the Mini. You're in the minority but good for you.

No I am absolutely not.
You take the thread on this board and you assume that thread somehow represents the playersbase.
If 5% of the players of this game even read these mbs, I'd be surprised.
I've seen reactions on other forums.
Reddit: 52 k players where you were basically told to take a hike and where the overall majority of players were extremely positive about the changes.
Discord, many channels where I have yet to hear even one player unhappy with the changes.
In game: same story.

No, I dont in any way, shape or form think this mb represents anything close to what THE players of this game think.

But this thread is about communications, If you'd care about that, you would agree the dev responsible has gone out of his way to reach out to the player base.
He responded to you in that thread on the bullroarer forum and you chose to ignore him.
He adjusted the changes and made a major improvement after players feedback both on this forum and on Discord.
In other words: you may not like the outcome, but thats your problem.

The dev in question did an excellent job, especially where communications are concerned.
I have yet to find another game where devs communicate so directly with the playerbase.

I am glad you are pleased.
But a lot more players are not.
Would you stop telling us that we aren't?

And this is where I am going to stop this discussion with you now.
Two times in a row now you assume I am saying something I never said.
I never told you or anyone else they have to like the mini changes, in fact, I couldnt care less at this point.

[OnnMacMahal]

Next time you add a thread here on the official boards, and also decide to chat out in Discord channels, would you kindly post the Discord server information into the thread please, so players know where to look.

Ironically, a significant amount of feedback spun out of players in the Ghyniverse Discord server linking on Discord to our forum posts. I also actively play on multiple servers and regularly interact with players in-game, though you won’t know which characters are mine.

You know, there a lot of info out there about ideal builds for raiding content. All finely tuned but very much tied to access to equipment; gear, slot available, tracery colour and trait points. And why it's incongruous to have the real casual landscapers refer to such builds or somehow attempt to employ them, on landscape.
Some of us finely tune our builds particularly for landscape and obtain the best gear that our choice limits us to and tweaks them after assessing additions to the game, such and Words and Heraldry this season. I'm considering the right balance of bleeds, single target, AOE, criticals for each also, target count, range and the combination of trait and tracery choices to approach some ideal. Not about reaching Mission instance lock but how close to the half an hour it pops up.
. . .
Then, as I mentioned elsewhere, the tune of a bolster made on a harp or theorbo against that of an Inspire Fellows could influence a choice to make on my MT.

I just want to reiterate that this is absolutely a playstyle that we consider seriously. One example is the change to –All Skill Inductions. Players were able to achieve -100% inductions (which can have some nasty unintended consequences) so several traits were changed to –Healing Skill Inductions. This had the desired effect for players at that upper bound, but for players who weren’t geared out to the point where they had almost/no inductions, this change slowed them down more than we wanted, which is why baseline minstrel skill inductions were then reduced as well.
We don’t always hit the mark perfectly, but we know changes like this will affect everyone playing the class, regardless of experience, gear, and level.

I believe you mean well, but your error is not taking our feedback into consideration.
Instead, you try to explain to players, to us that have been on this game for 14 years, that "Mini players nearly the same". It does not. It really does not. Players are randomly posting threads saying it's so much more unfun now, feels so clunky that they are not playing Mini anymore.

Anthems in particular have undergone a number of significant revisions over the years, including short durations, shared cooldowns, inability to stack their buffs, and more. I am not trying to claim that the class plays exactly the same as it always has, because ‘how it plays’ is not an unchanging, fixed thing. The fact is that until recently, anthems were a relatively small part of your overall skill use, and they still are. They now require a little bit of consideration regarding their use, but it’s not as though the anthem changes have fundamentally altered the way you deal damage to enemies or heal your allies, which remain the bulk the of your skills and rotation.

- It's time-consuming to communicate with your customers about the radical changes you've done? If you don't type on a keyboard using only 1 finger I have to infer that that's nothing but an excuse to hide the fact that in-depth posts about your "vision" of the class would've been torn to shreds by feedback/criticism and thus highlight how little you do know about Lotro and Mini

Believe what you like. It’s evident that I won’t convince you otherwise. But point of fact, I’ve spent a significant chunk of my day today writing out forum responses. I was not asked to and am not required to, but I believe that we’re all better served by more, not less, communication.

[Bio-Flame]

I am not trying to claim that the class plays exactly the same as it always has...

Actually, you did. On October 15th, two days ago, you said and I quote: "(also a little tongue-in-cheek, considering the minstrel class plays nearly the same now as it did prior to 33.2)."

because ‘how it plays’ is not an unchanging, fixed thing.

I agree. But it didn't change due to divine intervention, or random code mutation. You changed it. If you hadn't, it would have been as it was. But change you did, despite plenty of negative feedback.
And plenty of players did NOT like it. And told you why - the Anthems shared CD, and the need to spam them every 20-25 scds.

The fact is that until recently, anthems were a relatively small part of your overall skill use, and they still are. They now require a little bit of consideration regarding their use, but it’s not as though the anthem changes have fundamentally altered the way you deal damage to enemies or heal your allies, which remain the bulk the of your skills and rotation.
.

The healing didn't change much, that is true. A little, but on that part I'd agree with you when you say "plays nearly the same".
But Anthems are a small part of our overall skill use?
OnnMacMahal, how can you say it?
A fight starts: we now need to fire 1 ballad, fire the 1st Anthem of Pair I , fire Cry of the Chorus, Fire the 1st Anthem of Second pair...and now heal. After 20-25 scds, we fire 2nd Anthem of Pair I. Then we wait another 20-25 scds, fire the 2nd Anthem of Pair II, fire off Cry of the Chorus and do Anthem of Free Peoples, the unpaired Anthem.
And since then, every 20-25 scds we need to recast Pair I, wait 20-25 scds and recast Pair II, wait 20-25 scds to recast Anthem of Free Peoples. Whenever Cry of the Chorus is up, we can do it faster, but we still need to recast the Anthems.
We still need to button-smash, which is the main complaint that players have.


How is it a small part of our overall skill use?
T


OnnMacMahal, of the 64% of the negative feedback that you got on the Beta Forums, almost all of them complained about the Anthems shared CD, the need to spam Anthems and that the Mini became a button smasher.
It's a very common complaint, almost universal from the players that did not enjoy your changes.
"ONH; please, I want to spam Anthems more, we need to cast Anthems more often" said no Mini ever.


Whether you agree or not with our negative feedback, which you clearly don't, you at least ought to admit that almost every negative post mentions the button-smasher that Mini has now become, courtesy of your changes to Anthems.
Maybe you are not used to the Blue Minstrel playstyle pre-33.2. Or maybe you don't much care for it. Maybe you prefer mini to be a button smasher.
However it's clear that many, many Minstrel players liked it pre-patch and they don't enjoy it now.
Heck, even players that DID enjoy your changes still complained that getting the Anthems up and running is a chore and a bore.



Why are you being so adamant in this?
Is it really such a blow to your pride to remove the Anthem shared CD and/or increase the Anthem's durations, so that players don't need to spam them every 20-25scds?
There would still be many changes that would still be disliked but at the very least, you'd remove the universally disliked change that you did.


Why don't you at least change it on BR to try to meet player's expectations and desires and then monitor the player's reactions to it?
What do you have to lose?

[Mirhaen]

The main problem in communication, the way I see it, is a matter of mistrust that has been built up by time, by various decisions that has been made without sound explanations, and those decisions mostly took away the fun aspect of the game from us, pushing us into more grind, or into the store, to omit said grind, of which a lot of us didn't like either alternative - that is to say neither more grind nor spending more money than we already do. So every time something is taken away from us, or changed, we already at start worrying, thinking how much is that going to cost us, time wise or money wise. Because in most cases that is reality of those changes. Let that sink in finally, please.

In most cases, we are left to think that either you do not understand what would make us happy (you do not understand impact of implemented changes), despite our feedback, or you want us to spend more coins to avoid wasting time on very mind numbing things. We understand that some things have to be changed, some things have to be earned and grind for, but we had too much of it lately. Even festivals and events became grind, not to mention constant upping of virtues or LI levels, and quite frankly list is long by now, most of it also severely punishing people with few or many alts, and people that take part in and enjoy various aspects of the game. Honesty and having more fun are way to go forward

[Mirhaen]

And plenty of players did NOT like it. And told you why - the Anthems shared CD, and the need to spam them every 20-25 scd.

And plenty understood why this just simply had to happen. It is not good nor healthy for the game design, particularly instances.