Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[TesalionLortus]

It's also very interesting to explore it historically what was there around Mt Gram if Rhudaur's reach extended as far as Car Bronach... so yeah, I smell Mount Gram origin story or something Maybe it was initially a base for Angmar orc forces during Angmar/Rhudaur alliance? Such rich, interesting history in the region, in a way perhaps even more exciting than Cardolan

[Maedol]

What do you think this road from Lone-lands will lead us one day to this very "Rhudaur:?

[TesalionLortus]

Wow, I don't even remember that but probably!

[auximenes]

I tired getting over or around that boulder many years ago to no avail. I did get into that area eventually, via a break on the east side of the North Downs.

[provamail10]

Were we ever to produce something to fit in that area, we'd likely call it Rhudaur.

Scenario's words prove that they're not developing terrain there now, nor in the near future. I think Rhudaur could be a very nice addition, so let's expect that finally gets on his radar.

As for Gondor, Valather's map is crystal clear. I often think that if Aragorn played Lotro, he'd be very angry with the devs for having given him such a tiny kingdom.

[OldMadeOfLions]

I often think that if Aragorn played Lotro, he'd be very angry with the devs for having given him such a tiny kingdom.

Tiny?

Hard disagree. It's not many computer games that can take three years to develop a single kingdom, like we did with the various sections of Gondor. That's twice as long as 'Shadows of Angmar' spent in active development before release! We're fortunate that we can show so many corners of the kingdom, since most games don't have that luxury; they were released over multiple updates, of course, but when you put them all together it adds up to an impressive amount of real estate. Tiny. Bah!

MoL

[LabadalofDorlomin]

Tiny?

Hard disagree. It's not many computer games that can take three years to develop a single kingdom, like we did with the various sections of Gondor. That's twice as long as 'Shadows of Angmar' spent in active development before release! We're fortunate that we can show so many corners of the kingdom, since most games don't have that luxury; they were released over multiple updates, of course, but when you put them all together it adds up to an impressive amount of real estate. Tiny. Bah!

MoL

Quantity is great but the quality is better. Lotro landscape quality is superb but we can always want for more. Greedy as we are.

[TesalionLortus]

they were released over multiple updates, of course, but when you put them all together it adds up to an impressive amount of real estate. Tiny. Bah!

To say that it's tiny is indeed an overstatement, haha. I enjoyed the entire journey though Gondor and there has been lots of care put into it!

When put together the amount is indeed impressive and I really love to look at it on stitched-together map of Gondor So it's not "tiny" by any stretch but as previously discussed here, it does come across as less lived-in if compared with Rohan, and that creates impression of the smaller size (not sure, though if one were to compare, traversable landmass is probably smaller than both Rohans combined ?). So yeah, maybe you could give it some more love someday and at the very least create an impression of the Western and Central parts as more lived-in spaces, maybe some villages and cities on the horizon and more live visible beyond the impassables

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Sadly, my prediction is... it's nowhere near on their radar, since Scenario wasn't hesitant to tease us with a name :P

But let's delve into it!





I guess potential Rhudaur would be roughly the size of the Yondershire? Which makes it suitable as a regular quest pack update? On the other hand...

In my earlier suggested list of urgency I said this gap could bring us to Gabilshatur through the mountainous passes near Gram but if the new addition would be just Rhudaur, well, I guess the waiting could be long and there would be still such a glaring gap... So this makes me think perhaps this entire area is a great fit for next "mini expansion" whenever that may be (and the mini expansion thing seems to be more warmly received with lower lvl stuff such as CardoSwan - whereas with Three Peaks it was met with scorn, since it was cap and thus seemed more like a cash grab to many people). So maybe, hmm, maybe it's a good idea to focus these "mini expansions" on the gaps? Or needed lower lvl alternatives such as an alternative to Moria?

So, similar to Cardo-Swan, we could have Rhuda-Gram and that mini expansion could encompass Western stretch of Misties to connect with Trollshaws, Gram and Moors. Depending on how feasible it is and whether they can make a marketing buzz out of it, they can even move the PvMP Moors to another layer and have the pre-invasion open-world version of the Moors that is the proper intro to the actual PvMP storyline. Maybe. (which would be an opportunity to give Moors a landscape refresh) But not necessarily, just surrounding Moors and maybe have a few portal entry ways would be just fine too! Either way, as a mini expansion (but still mountainous space so there wouldn't be as much of a wiggling room for content as there is in Cardo-Swan) the area would be just fine to accommodate 30 something to 45 alternate route to Gabilshatur and then 45-50 that acts either as alternative to Angmar and alternative follow-up from the Misties that can feed players to Angmar, and maybe it all culminates in some kind of modern Goblin Town 2.0 with Mount Gram?

(as alternate route, but the Epic does need to introduce the Golodir story and deal with Rammas Deluon, so trip to North Downs and proper Epic entry to Angmar necessary... if someone cares about exploring that entire storyline, but otherwise, if not, a player could choose, just like they gotta choose now between Breeland, Cardo-Swan, Northdowns, Lonelands etc)





Rhudaur is a funny one. It's the Trollshaws but it's also North of Lonelands (Amon Sul was contested territory between Kingdoms) and parts of Eastern Angmar, and its official territory extended as far as Car Bronach, because we have Arnorian stronghold there, plus we had Rhudaur barrows. Through Trollshaws and Lonelands (+ mentioned Rhudaur) are probably the core Arnorian territory, whereas everything else would be hill-men and wild men populated, for the most part, under Arnorian authority, and that's where the Witch-king got his claws first and made allies. But yeah, that's one of the reasons why it would be so cool to delve more into Rhudaur next! Also, the whole Lost Temple business made it even more confusing and intriguing...

As you mentioned, the issue is that there are a number of different gaps to fill in here - the bit to the west of the Ettenmoors (the Weather Marches, Mount Gram), the bit to the south (the small strip of land between the Moors and the Trollshaws), and the bit to the south and east (the bit which I wrote about in the OP as the Remnants of Rhudaur, given the existence of the Lost Temple). You could also stretch further north and east to the Misties.

This whole area, including the Ettenmoors, is smaller than Cardo-Swan (possibly smaller than just Cardolan, depending how you look at it).

My solution for how to make this work:
- The PVMP version of the Ettenmoors is moved on to a different region map (Tales of Yore, for example). I’m sure this isn’t an easy thing to do, but we know they’ve done it before with some instances.
- A normal landscape version of the Ettenmoors becomes one of the sub-regions of the new ‘Rhudaur’ region - others would be ‘Mount Gram’, ‘the Weather Marches’ and something else for the bit to the south and east which leads to Rivendell/Trollshaws - or this could just be added to an expanded Ettenmoors map.

[provamail10]

Tiny?

Hard disagree. It's not many computer games that can take three years to develop a single kingdom, like we did with the various sections of Gondor. That's twice as long as 'Shadows of Angmar' spent in active development before release! We're fortunate that we can show so many corners of the kingdom, since most games don't have that luxury; they were released over multiple updates, of course, but when you put them all together it adds up to an impressive amount of real estate. Tiny. Bah!

MoL

"Tiny" is an exaggeration which misrepresents Gondor landscape. But my point it's not about the number of updates it took or development time, but playable landscape. Gondor might be "impressive", but in my opinion, the amount of playable landscape isn't.

[Maedol]

As you mentioned, the issue is that there are a number of different gaps to fill in here - the bit to the west of the Ettenmoors (the Weather Marches, Mount Gram), the bit to the south (the small strip of land between the Moors and the Trollshaws), and the bit to the south and east (the bit which I wrote about in the OP as the Remnants of Rhudaur, given the existence of the Lost Temple). You could also stretch further north and east to the Misties.

This whole area, including the Ettenmoors, is smaller than Cardo-Swan (possibly smaller than just Cardolan, depending how you look at it).

My solution for how to make this work:
- The PVMP version of the Ettenmoors is moved on to a different region map (Tales of Yore, for example). I’m sure this isn’t an easy thing to do, but we know they’ve done it before with some instances.
- A normal landscape version of the Ettenmoors becomes one of the sub-regions of the new ‘Rhudaur’ region - others would be ‘Mount Gram’, ‘the Weather Marches’ and something else for the bit to the south and east which leads to Rivendell/Trollshaws - or this could just be added to an expanded Ettenmoors map.

Have you noticed that in the latest version of the stable master map Ettenmoors is indicated within its boundaries, which most likely hints at the fact that they will not be changed specifically. It's a pity, I would really like to visit the PvE version of this location with an interesting plot, see where Aragorn's grandfather died, and so on.

However, all the inscriptions around this very "Rhudaur" were removed, which can also be taken as a hint.

By the way, Wildwood is still not here for some reason.

[Hierona]

Isn't Rhudaur suppose to be where currently Trollshaws are???

Rhudaur is like north of the road in the Lone-lands, and at Ost Guruth it goes south and adds Harloeg to it's territory. It includes the area in the Northdowns east of Esteldin and it includes a portion of Trollshaws till around the Bruinen. The Ettenmoors is the only region which is entirely Rhudaur.
Also my personal headcanon is that Agamaur is the old capital of Rhudaur, cause not one name has been given for it. Would also fit nice with the other capitals with the doom they brought. Fornost of Arthedain has been under influence of the dead. Tyrn Gorthad is now the barrowdowns, and also captured by the dead of Angmar. And Agamaur has a similar problem with the dead.

What do you think this road from Lone-lands will lead us one day to this very "Rhudaur"?

Probably. Think Lone-lands should be opened up at the northside, so could be the entire mountain area being passable, cause the road just starts at the border and doesn't connect to the lonely inn or something.

Have you noticed that in the latest version of the stable master map Ettenmoors is indicated within its boundaries, which most likely hints at the fact that they will not be changed specifically. It's a pity, I would really like to visit the PvE version of this location with an interesting plot, see where Aragorn's grandfather died, and so on.

However, all the inscriptions around this very "Rhudaur" were removed, which can also be taken as a hint.

By the way, Wildwood is still not here for some reason.

Think it is also done cause the first picture is really unclear to what region what name connects. They are basicly written on top of eachother.

[TesalionLortus]

All these maps are so inaccurate though, especially some parts.

I just don't get it, why they couldn't create these new modern maps based on complete terrain map outline of entire LOTRO's Middle-earth, so distances and proportions are reflected almost perfectly. Just take a quick screencap from Google LOTRO map, put it in Photoshop or whatever they're working with, and have this done once but properly. It's not done like that with any of the regional maps, which led to terrible lack of space and condensation of text around Ered Mithrin and Gundabad when new regions came out, and it's not there on Stablemaster map either because it has the main gate to Gundabad at the line of Forochel's end point but instead it should be below, with Car Bronach at the line of Forochel (even though this map actually tricks you into thinking it's accurate because the proportions seem to be right in many parts and it shows borders, but it's still so messy and not exactly representative of how this world actually looks)

My guess is maybe they were limited in resolution/size, so they always had to condense things? But Stablemaster map has a scrollable feature now, so no excuse there going forward, it can clearly be a bigger picture that can fit more things. This map should be corrected to be more accurate. All maps should be, eventually!

PS: Also, the Stablemaster map would have been more useful if it was bigger... so the text could fit and be more distinguishable. I prefer bigger and for it to be scrollable. Rather than everything cluttered together with all these dots and text almost next to each other and when you have spaces as small as Wildwood it just gets so terrible...

[TesalionLortus]

Oh gosh, for example, what I just said...

The updated Eriador map really shows how bad it is



Whethertop is almost in Agamaur, Cardolan/Herne seem a bit too far away East from Bree and its Homesteads, Eregion like it's somewhere away from Trollshows rather than below it etc... it's so messy. But I guess Yondershire and the expansive forest between Evendim and Shire is still my "favorite"

I really hope the next iteration of these maps can be in sync with in-game terrain. If that's ever a reality for these "regular" maps then scrollable - would be better to have them more detailed and closer look, room for more space if needed, but made scrollable, from top to bottom, left to right, in some degree, so nothing needs to be condensed or altered to artificially fit a limited space

[TesalionLortus]

Btw, is the "to Vales of Anduin" on new Eregion map there just to be pointlessly confusing or... we will actually get a portal to Vales from Eregion that one can use from Eregion ? (without having to "climb" an avalanche that we can't climb)

Like, I was completely fine with Scenario's reluctance because "avalanche gotta to be there for story reasons" (even though a sneaky hard-to-notice path to climb it... wouldn't be very bad IMO, no immersion would suffer here). So I was fine, but now that the map actually got this big "to the Vales" text on it... sounds like it should actually connect feasibly and in reachable way...

[Valather89]

"To Vales of Anduin" has been there on the Eregion map for three years, it's nothing new.

[TesalionLortus]

Oh... okay, haven't really investigated that map for many years so I hardly noticed

[Phantion]

Tiny?

Hard disagree. It's not many computer games that can take three years to develop a single kingdom, like we did with the various sections of Gondor. That's twice as long as 'Shadows of Angmar' spent in active development before release! We're fortunate that we can show so many corners of the kingdom, since most games don't have that luxury; they were released over multiple updates, of course, but when you put them all together it adds up to an impressive amount of real estate. Tiny. Bah!

MoL

Oh no- I agree with you, MoL! I think that, while true, it would be cool to see a revamp adding some newer areas . . . I just want to say I greatly appreciate all that hard work you and the Team did and still do - especially in those areas.

Gondor really is a huge kingdom on a horizontal axis - from the western sea nigh Dol Amroth to the walls of Mordor itself - if you just keep going in a straight line through Havens of Belfalas, Lamedon, Ringlo Vale, Dor-en-Ernil, Lower Lebennin, Upper Lebennin, Lossarnach, and South Ithilien - and that's not even including the whole Anduin Vale leading up to the Wastes on one side and Far Anorien on the other - and how HUGE Far Anorien still is.

I think my "Gondor revamp" idea was just, you know, an idea to . . . then revisit some of those regions with your newer world-building tech that Scenario and others have been using since Gundabad to fill-in some spots where you really did have to cut corners at the time, even when adding all those corners of the kingdom with the tech you had way back when and with twice the development of "Shadows of Angmar."

It's really just a sort of world-immersion question, and it's really simply about the idea . . . time permitting, of from time to time, on occasion, revisiting some older zones to give it the "CardoSwan" treatment- which again, is more of a distant wish-list item, as far as I'm concerned.

So, areas in Gondor I really think could use that love aren't that many in number: upper Emyn Ernil, those vales in Lower Lebennin, and honestly, the Mouths of the Entwash. Ered Nimrais and Anfalas are more like "distant dreams." Mouths of the Entwash: I just think it would be great to perhaps extend it a little bit westward and especially eastward so you could follow all the shores of Anduin between Rauros and Talath Anor.

Let me also pitch this idea to you: You climb a very tall, narrow, winding mountain pass out of Dru Bhuta like . . . the pass into Lyndelby in Wells of Langflood. It's treacherous - as Boromir tells the Council of Elrond. It has a freeze effect you need a special kind of pot to stave-off the cold - or maybe like those Wildermore effects from Nurzum's giant crystals. The pass keeps winding up and up and up - and then you come out above the mists and clouds and feel like you're on top of Everest. Maybe there are your normal snow-beasts, some caves, maybe more of those "Quarry Nameless" whose Druedain name I can't remember for the life of me. Maybe there are old White Mountain Dwarf ruins. One pass takes you around to Aragorn's secret spot high above Minas Tirith (*or another spot just like it that - isn't - reserved for the Seat of Kings). Another takes you down to Imloth Melui. Another takes you down to Tumladen. Another takes you further along and out by the Gilrain. As you journey through this, as you steadily walk through the mists and snows, suddenly, the sun appears, and off in the far distance, you see the Sea.

That's a very unique environmental experience I think only that area (*unless, perhaps, Ered Luin / Lindon could do it someday) could unveil for players. Just a distant thought, perhaps for a distant future, and idea since, after all, the mountains do have some development on the Far Anorien and Lossarnach, Lebennin sides. I'd still like to vouch for an optional quest-mechanic to remove the Dawnless Day over Central and Eastern Gondor.

But again: I'm just so grateful we're getting everything we are! Finally, Eriador feels no longer like a theme-park L-shaped ride! So, kudos to you all, much deserved!

Cheers!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Have you noticed that in the latest version of the stable master map Ettenmoors is indicated within its boundaries, which most likely hints at the fact that they will not be changed specifically. It's a pity, I would really like to visit the PvE version of this location with an interesting plot, see where Aragorn's grandfather died, and so on.

However, all the inscriptions around this very "Rhudaur" were removed, which can also be taken as a hint.

By the way, Wildwood is still not here for some reason.

This map change does feel like a very big tease for Rhudaur - although I'd still like to see it with the Ettenmoors properly integrated into the rest of the game world and make it less of a fish bowl (although I understand why the PvMP version needs to be like this).

[TesalionLortus]

Question to Scenario and/or MoL... because I just played through the Mirkwood Landing and it made me very curious...

The way I understand it, if one looks across the Anduin from the shores of Lothlorien, what's actually there across the water is the "After Landing" public space version, right? The actual Mirkwood expansion with Chapter 1: Plans of the Golden Host and all other quests? The Landing is just an instanced version of the space but something physically elsewhere, right?

But then, whenever the talk about making that part of Anduin traversable comes up, or about making Mirkwood an actual part of open-world, you guys mention it's a difficult endeavor. I remember Scenario mentioned he and MoL have come to the conclusion that it would take a huge amount of effort from both of them, that's why they dread this little side project... but this is something that I don't get, so it leaves me puzzled now. Like, I don't see the problem here unless I'm missing something? What's needed from MoL and content team here???

Just remove the Waters of Death on the Anduin, allow anyone to cross into public Mirkwood space and call it a day, it's all fine (some quests may be available or maybe none of them are until the player does the Landing, doesn't matter, both outcomes are OK). If someone skips the Landing, it would be literally the same as if someone skipped the instance with Gandalf destroying the Morgul Bridge (bah, or even Pelennor or Black Gate!) and crossed immediately from After Battle Ithilien into After Battle Opened Up Expansion Morgul Vale (so with the ranger camp and broken bridge!). Mirkwood opened up, regardless of Landing still existing for story reasons (just like Gandalf breaking the Morgul bridge still exists for story reasons) would be no different here. So why is there ANY need for content redesign? And why Scenario's "make Anduin traversable and Mirkwood part of open-world" should involve MoL and possibly others at all? I just don't get it.

Plus, since I just played through it, I must say the instanced Landing version holds up pretty well, it doesn't have all the extra war ambience with extra background troops like newer regions have but it holds up pretty well with elven soldiers going off to fight orcs in different outposts across the map and seems immersive enough. There is no reason to remove or revamp the Landing - it's actually good to have a story "lead-up" event to something like that, rather than just go straight into "we secured our position" (story-wise). So why remove that or change any of these quests? Why involve MoL or anyone else? I just don't see why it's necessary and what would be the benefit of doing so? If you eliminate the landing space and stuff its story into a short one-time instance or into the public version, its not benefit and more like a damage done to something that actually holds up well, so why break it.

That being said, I do understand that even something as simple as removing these death traps on Anduin takes time, but I guess that's something Scenario could easily take care of himself, at some point. I just don't understand the need for MoL, change in quests or removal of the Landing... so unless I'm missing something very important here, sounds like a needless hassle, no? Because opened up Mirkwood would be no different than opened up Morgul Vale, no? (Both would be similar in that they may seem kinda off if a player was to enter prematurely without completing associated story events but that happens pretty often in this game in its open-world... West Rohan, Mordor, After Battle versions and more... so no problem at all!)

That's why I'm curious and why I'm asking

[Daugon]

I just wanted to say it's always bothered me you have to go through the HIDDEN valley of Rivendell to get into the Misty Mountains. I like both regions, but like how do regular folks get into the Misty Mountains? I'd really love a northern expansion to the Trollshaws that provided an alternate route into the Misty Mountains.

[TesalionLortus]

To follow-up on this... I just realized something that I haven't before. I've suggested West March as alternative to Eastern Rohan, others said Brownlands, new road to Gondor, Emyn Muil, Nindalf etc.

But... there is something far more obvious (though sneaky!) that would do wonders for this part of the world, though I'm not exactly sure how to call this whole area!






1. Finally the entire mountain chain would be continuous in one line and all adjacent territories filled in! The Misties on this side complete!

2. Fangorn would be complete. Also, why not, I would love to return to Fangorn!

(Though my only wish is they don't nerf the darkness in there... I love Fangorn. If there are two older places that really make no sense lighted even more it's Fangorn and Mirkwood. Also, the Northern Mirkwood is very dark too, and somehow it's ok, so I hope they're not going to nerf Fangorn.)

3. We explore some Isengard backstories, preparations for war with Rohan, cutting down the adjacent forests, and that brings us to 4...

4. Isengard reach is well-explained through geographical in-game terrain portrayal rather than left to imagination and headcanon. Also, some of the mountains are visibly nerfed and lowered, new passes created, so it makes sense how the orcs move around and that their wood gathering efforts are spread out all over the place, adjacent to enemy territories - I would imagine there are some reliable passes or underground tunnels through some parts of Northern Fangorn that let them do that. Or maybe they go around Fangorn, so directly North of Isengard through mountainous areas and then make a turn around Balewood, and traverse the edges of the forest. Lots of questing and story material to explore, with the supply lines of Isengard industry, behind-the-enemy-lines intelligence efforts, maybe some cool flashbacks with Saruman chatting with some ents in the past, when he was still somehow decent. It would of course provide a great deal of depth to what happened in Wildermore.

5. I stand by what I said in this thread, when I suggested a teleport connection between Amdan Gate and Limlight Gorge, because it's needed sooner rather than later, but who knows, maybe someday this entire area could become an open-world path. That would be yet another cool prospect of this entire segment being filled in.

6. We get a road South of Lothlorien into Great River, so no need to pass through the "Wood of the Witch"... I don't need to say how awesome that would be and this would make this entire piece of the map feel a bit more natural and less of a choke-point theme park.

7. If it includes some kind of "Misty Mountains 2.0 but in Rhovanion" portion adjacent to Fangorn (so maybe this area is used for travel and wood transports to Isengard?) the size could be pretty impressive, as big as Mirkwood expansion or even bigger. It can even have some kind of smaller (or as big?) Goblin Town thing and show us where the Isengard-aligned goblins and orcs are coming from, that would be pretty cool. After all, this is book Saruman, he's been preparing for this for a while, so it's not like he just called Sauron with a "hey, send me some orcs"...

So... I think it could be the perfect 75-85 alternative to East Rohan, and maybe it could be done more like Fangorn in some areas, so it's more PC-driven, more adventurous/investigative, with quests picked up from trails, objects, trees, rogue goblins and autobestowed, not relying on human NPCs as much, and then done in a way that you can be fed into lvl 76-77 content from both directions, from Great River and Isengard. You can even have some sneak peak or rumors about Nurzum in the East and then it naturally flows into Wildermore content. I think it can be done!


Note: This is still not on the "priority list," at least not lvl-wise (but comes close behind the alternative to Moria! that one first!), but the prospect is highly interesting and I think it ranks pretty high on the list of what I would love to see!

[OldMadeOfLions]

The actual Mirkwood expansion with Chapter 1: Plans of the Golden Host and all other quests? The Landing is just an instanced version of the space but something physically elsewhere, right?

Nope. The reason we say it's not an easy thing to change is because the tech that's used here is different: everything is built in the same spot, just like Archet and the Walls of Moria (and a few other locations in the early game). We're not just trying to rain on your parade with that.

That said: maybe it's okay if you can't swim across the Anduin wherever you might want to. It's the Great River. Much of the history of Middle-earth has been shaped by the existence of where you can ford rivers, so I'm fine with having some spots where you can't just swim across. I don't think you should be swimming across Lake Nenuial either, but no one is going to let me sprinkle death volumes in the middle of the lake to make people take the longer, more realistic way around.

MoL

[TesalionLortus]

Thanks, MoL. So it's kind of a "phasing" thingy or even the same kind of phasing that's used for Black Gate? Scenario mentioned once that physical objects cannot phase (or something like that) so I assumed all these early game places couldn't be phasing/in the same physical spots, though maybe they're some kind of convoluted, tricky "early game phasing" or something. But yeah, it's clear now why would that be difficult.

I don't think you should be swimming across Lake Nenuial either, but no one is going to let me sprinkle death volumes in the middle of the lake to make people take the longer, more realistic way around.

Realistically, sure! But that would be one of these game'y things that everyone expects these days, and while I don't really care about that part of Anduin in particular, I guess there are people who wish for that to happen + the traversability of waters in all other parts of the game makes that spot kinda off, a giant surprise, and not in a good way

Easier said than done, I know, but who knows, maybe, if it's technically feasible, there can be a "phasing" non-death waters once a player completes the Landing, or perhaps even a phasing passage added to Mirkwood proper to make that dream connection with Middle Mirkwood come true someday in the future, if this missing area of the forest is ever added.

[gildhur]

I don't think you should be swimming across Lake Nenuial either, but no one is going to let me sprinkle death volumes in the middle of the lake to make people take the longer, more realistic way around.

As long as you keep the dock-masters, I would absolutely be okay with that! (And bring the one-shot guards back to Lorien too.)