Red DPS Nerf?

[Meshuggenah]

Something that seems to have slipped many peoples notice from the Update 34 patch notes:

The Minstrel trait Discordant Ballads no longer increases all skill damage passively, it now only increases Ballads.

After literally a decades of being discarded as a meme spec red minstrel finally received some attention and was buffed to the point that it's actually a viable choice in fellowships along with the utility we provide.

Now, half a dozen patches later, we're receiving a huge tactical damage nerf. 25% Tactical damage loss puts red minstrel back in the trash bin we hadn't even finished crawling out from.

Why, SSG? The spec is barely competitive as it is, still well below all of the typical DPS classes.

Please reconsider this completely unnecessary nerf.

[Neinda]

This is what they have done every time they raised the DPS for the mini since the game began. Mini DPS boosts have always been temporary. It is expected and probably the right thing to do. Minis=heals not DPS.

[DoRonRon]

Mine says Discordant Ballads is just 5% Tactical atm. No mention of the ballad only in the notes.

The mechanics of getting Anthems up and running will entail more ballads being used. Importantly we can get War, then ICotC and Dissonance up and a 50% to coda and reset and gain +10% damage from Free Peoples early into a fight and a minute or so (+15sec) to ignore them for a while. The personal Dissonance is providing +20% to Cry and Call damage anyway.

The fact of ballads reducing the active CDs of our (non ICotC) cries and calls and our coda is giving us a 50% chance to reset all cries and calls and enabling us to use more of them should be the prime mover in increasing our damage. If we are in a raid environment, then we'll have another two Anthems to factor in but out of the three trees we are best placed get them all up fast and maintain them. Blue will suffer from elapse time differences without a reset and only a CD reducing mechanic for ICotC, entailing more focus on their maintenance. Yellow a much poorer reset of 33%, over Red's 50%, and threat risking coda to boot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WzE...eTvGKbhsf05f5F

We all need to go through the process to reach enlightenment. The cancel culture abounds in game these days sadly.

But players have been doing more damage since the update, despite the notes.

[DoRonRon]

Firing off a single ballad does affect the tool tip on my Tact Mastery % more than what a single ballad's buff would provide. Another two ballads add a little bit more in line with their own buffs to tact Mastery.

[Meshuggenah]

Minis=heals not DPS.

This is precisely the attitude SSG needs to move away from.

Minstrel has both DPS and healing trait trees and should therefore be a viable choice to fill either role in a fellowship.

Mine says Discordant Ballads is just 5% Tactical atm.

That's how it is currently. The quote was from the update 34 patch notes, where it's being nerfed.

It remains to be seen exactly how much of a DPS loss this will be but any DPS nerf at all to a spec that is already middle of the road seems completely unnecessary to me.

[DoRonRon]

Ah, you included a figure of 25% loss so was thinking you were referring to a prior version we had to spend points in.

I can take 5% hit.

The older Dissonance didn't buff our cries and calls so much and Free Peoples is better than the old Melody version we didn't get. Just needs us to work to get them up and running now. Perhaps it was feedback from some source doing a massive parse of a Hiddenhoard T3 run and it needed toning down. If one was wanting to test the limits of a build to show off, a Cappy Shield-brother used to be the means. Is that still giving a chunk of damage none of the rest get? I'd want to see the full combat log to analyse over what a tool reports.

[OnnMacMahal]

This is just a bugfix which missed the U33.2 patch. When you specialize in red-line, the trait 'Discordant Ballads' says it gives you a Tactical Damage buff when you use ballads. That buff is called 'War-speech' and is unaffected by this fix. The trait in question has been erroneously giving an always-active, additional +5% Tactical Damage effect at all times, which shouldn't be there. Since a moderately-geared player can expect to be well above +100% Tactical Damage, this fix will be less than a 5% reduction in damage.

[Neinda]

This is just a bugfix which missed the U33.2 patch. When you specialize in red-line, the trait 'Discordant Ballads' says it gives you a Tactical Damage buff when you use ballads. That buff is called 'War-speech' and is unaffected by this fix. The trait in question has been erroneously giving an always-active, additional +5% Tactical Damage effect at all times, which shouldn't be there. Since a moderately-geared player can expect to be well above +100% Tactical Damage, this fix will be less than a 5% reduction in damage.

I fully expected the DPS to be toned down and it really doesn't matter one bit. This has happened so many times over the years there is no shock or surprise.

You might want to consider what a "moderately geared player" is and how that might apply to lower level players? Those are the people probably harmed the most from this fix. The lower level players more than likely live in red line and making it more difficult for them to level is something to consider. End game minis are more than likely healing not DPS. The little I have played lately I don't see my mini friends joining raids in red line. They are still healers as the primary role. All of these class updates tend to ignore the impact on leveling players. The more difficult to level the less likely someone is to stick around. Gear and weapons are a grind and difficult while leveling. Make the skills worth having and the class worth playing at all levels.

[DoRonRon]

Haste passive says ballads lower the CD on all Cries and Calls but doesn't with Improved Cry of the Chorus. Typo or WAI? We didn't care so much when we were buffing out of combat...

I've gotten more comfortable with the new mechanics and can run a solo instance and have all 5 buffed and maintained for the most part. Having to go out of my way finishing a mission with all 5 up with a minute to go and get into the next one to more easily refresh with just a ballad, Dissonance, ICotC, Prowess and hope for a reset for a Free Peoples is a right pain. So, I have jumped through all the hoops, but it only slows me down in solo play. It actually delivers on my old routine of LI swaps to bring the best buffs to my group so suits my wanting to ring the neck of a mechanic to gain the most out of it, but are there that many of us like that playing these days?

Pity no one had thought to use that Stand Tall to stop flops to also set an Anthem In-combat only flag... too late now

[Meshuggenah]

This is just a bugfix which missed the U33.2 patch. When you specialize in red-line, the trait 'Discordant Ballads' says it gives you a Tactical Damage buff when you use ballads. That buff is called 'War-speech' and is unaffected by this fix. The trait in question has been erroneously giving an always-active, additional +5% Tactical Damage effect at all times, which shouldn't be there. Since a moderately-geared player can expect to be well above +100% Tactical Damage, this fix will be less than a 5% reduction in damage.

Thank you for clarifying. I hope I'm overestimating how much impact this will have.

The changes in 32.2 seemed like an attempt to make red minstrel a viable DPS choice. Every time this discussion comes up on the forum there are always comments that "minstrel is a healer" and therefore their red line should never be a competitive option in fellowships.

Seems to me that any class that has a trait tree designed to dps, tank or heal/support should be capable of filling those roles. Ideally, someone forming a fellowship should be able to choose any tank, any healer/support and any DPS and have an equal chance of success.

For future clarification, it would be great if one of the team could comment on the current design philosophy of hybrid classes like minstrel, RK, etc.

Also, while we're at it, any chance of making the Echoes of Battle skill stack (the damaging portion, not the debuffs, obviously?) It's a significant portion of a minstrels DPS and currently only one can be active on a mob at a time.

[Laubgaenger]

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Class

P=Primary, S=Secondary
There are Primary Roles, in that should the Class be good and Secondary Roles that can a class also do.

If you want to do something like fixing a screw for Wood, then you can use a screwdriver (Primary Role) or a Hammer (Secondary Role) to get it deeper in the hole.
Some classes are also reflect something like cordless electric screwdriver.

So if you have to solve the Problem and you can use a cordless electric screwdriver OR a common screwdriver WHY should someone use the Hammer?


There are Points, playing with friends, having fun together and so on....
All Classes need a form of damage, as the Adventure true the Story. But that let them not become Primary Damagedealer.
In the Past Classes like Captains, Loremaster, Guardians lack a bit of Damage while Solo Questing, but now and then the balance does not work well.
We had a Time in that the Minis damagespike was strong. The Guardians Bleed great.... but the Idea behind different classes is to have the right tool for the Job.

[Meshuggenah]

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Class

That page also says wardens are a primary tank, captains are a primary healer and RK's are a primary DPS. None of those things are currently true due to class changes over the decades since those roles were defined.

I would prefer to hear from the devs on this issue since the state of class performance currently does not seem to match the information listed on the wiki. Which is a good thing IMO.

Specs that are relegated to trivial landscape content are a huge wasted opportunity. There should be so much variation and player options in a game with 30-something specs between 11 classes.

Being forced into the same fellowship compositions because of 20 year old preconceptions about what a classes primary role "should" be doesn't add anything to the game. It just takes away player choices. I imagine it also makes the devs job harder since they have to intentionally design certain specs to underperform in order to reinforce this preconceived meta. A clear role-based performance target that all classes were aiming at would simplify balancing.

[Neinda]

That page also says wardens are a primary tank, captains are a primary healer and RK's are a primary DPS. None of those things are currently true due to class changes over the decades since those roles were defined.

I would prefer to hear from the devs on this issue since the state of class performance currently does not seem to match the information listed on the wiki. Which is a good thing IMO.

Specs that are relegated to trivial landscape content are a huge wasted opportunity. There should be so much variation and player options in a game with 30-something specs between 11 classes.

Being forced into the same fellowship compositions because of 20 year old preconceptions about what a classes primary role "should" be doesn't add anything to the game. It just takes away player choices. I imagine it also makes the devs job harder since they have to intentionally design certain specs to underperform in order to reinforce this preconceived meta. A clear role-based performance target that all classes were aiming at would simplify balancing.

This game has been built around classes having primary skills. A change this late in the game really makes little sense. Are hunters, champions and guardians going to get group heal skills? Will a mini get to wear heavy armor and tank? The idea of everyone can do everything is not a bad idea. I am enjoying the concept in ESO. I think it is too late in the game to change to that concept here in LOTRO and to truly change the class concept here would be an actual major rework not just eliminating a line here or there or giving a mini a bit of extra DPS.

Nerfing mini DPS skills is just part of how things work. It makes sense. A mini needs enough dps for landscape activities and not really much more than that to have a purpose in the game. Most of us who have played the mini picked the class for the healer role. Hopefully this nerf will not be too much for the leveling characters. End game minis will be healers anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if the mini dps gets another nerf in a few weeks.

[OnnMacMahal]

To reiterate, this is a minor bugfix which will have a <5% impact on your damage output. While Dissonance minstrels are now dealing much better damage relative to other DPS classes, they have a very high skill ceiling, and they don't benefit from as much offensive support as many other DPS-specs do at present. This is largely due to the fact that in 6-12 player group environments, there is generally better mitigation reduction available for damage types other than light damage (and a little bit to do with physical vs tactical support). That isn't a problem with the minstrel per se (this used to be covered entirely by Orome) but it's something we're aware of, and looking to address in the future.

As always, class balance is a moving target, and this specific change is a fix, not a balance adjustment.

As I've said before, Minstrels who choose to build around dealing damage should be able to competently fill the role of 'DPS' in groups.

[Meshuggenah]

As I've said before, Minstrels who choose to build around dealing damage should be able to competently fill the role of 'DPS' in groups.

Thank you!

This is exactly the statement I was looking/hoping for.

Can I also infer from this that the same is true for all other classes/specs in fellowship content? Eventually, they should all be viable choices?

Are hunters, champions and guardians going to get group heal skills?.

Poor argument.

There is obviously a huge difference between buffing classes with specs that are designed to fill a particular role (blue champ, blue cap, yellow RK, red LM, etc.) and adding skills like group heals to a hunter that has no healer trait spec.

All I'm saying is that if a class has a specialization that is geared towards a particular fellowship role, it should be competent in that role. As OnnMacMahal seems to have confirmed.

Seems to just be a matter of time and tweaking to bring all the classes in line with each other.

[Neinda]

To reiterate, this is a minor bugfix which will have a <5% impact on your damage output. While Dissonance minstrels are now dealing much better damage relative to other DPS classes, they have a very high skill ceiling, and they don't benefit from as much offensive support as many other DPS-specs do at present. This is largely due to the fact that in 6-12 player group environments, there is generally better mitigation reduction available for damage types other than light damage (and a little bit to do with physical vs tactical support). That isn't a problem with the minstrel per se (this used to be covered entirely by Orome) but it's something we're aware of, and looking to address in the future.

As always, class balance is a moving target, and this specific change is a fix, not a balance adjustment.

As I've said before, Minstrels who choose to build around dealing damage should be able to competently fill the role of 'DPS' in groups.

My apologies if you thought I was complaining. I never played the mini for DPS capabilities so I never have been concerned or cared about minis having more DPS. It seemed to me to be a good idea when I saw the change is all.

[DoRonRon]

Devs will ever talk about percentages in the context of a system where you are dealing with a pool with soft "cap" of 200% and at times spiking to 270+% with all the potential buffs.

That they have so many players taking that 5% figure at a face value effect is their fault for not putting people straight and promoting some into position to influence others with their poor grasp. They can't help themselves, with their only view from the small pond they swim around, yet the discussion is about Lakes and Oceans.

When we moved from 400% to 200% the skill my champ build gets me a few seconds of +35% actually doubled its effectiveness. Ideal for a solo game character yet what do these folk promote; LotroHQ's specific raid environment advice on builds.

People with such a poor grasp of the game's mechanics and who offer an opinion without any context aren't the ones to be extracting all there is out of the new Anthem mechanics either. Just waiting on an another addon that can leave them in blissful ignorance and prompted to press "this" button now, and now, and now!