What to do with North Downs/Fornost's part of Arthedain now, Scenario? Musings about Arnor...

[TesalionLortus]

I think this is indeed a bit weird now, with how "strongly" you handled Cardolan around its chief cities, and how there is a trace of Annuminas architecture in Yondershire but there isn't any at all in North Downs. On the other hand, I'm not here to scream "gotta change all these old assets!" because nope, seriously, they *do* feel good. I think they aged pretty well, for the most part, and a couple of bad apples (=pieces, spots) which need attention I already reported via the bug system, so hopefully these can be addressed one day.






I mean, just look - all of these old Arnorian sites feel very immersive to me and they're still pretty detailed, they actually aged very well!









TBC

[TesalionLortus]

These older sets still feel pretty unique, and have some variants between Breeland, Lonelands and Rhudaurian-styled ones. But their main characteristic is that they feel somehow smaller scale: layouts that could have been social spaces here and there, smaller keeps (maybe surrounded by wooden urbanization in the past), simpler arches and walled spaces but with smaller walls. They're still stylized though and seem like high civilisation, not just some backyard ruins. Plus, their color... some may say ruins in these parts got scrapped by robbers and locals, sure, or maybe, in part, they were just built from cheaper material because they were not chief provinces and chief cities? But the color evokes what you typically see of remains of ancient civilisations in our world, so that works pretty nice and they do remind me of that. They're not exactly in your face but feel very good. Also, I like that these are pretty worn but clearer, without moss and dirt all over them, makes them feel different and they feel ok in more open, a bit more barren spaces such as Lonelands or North Downs, or even in the Shire or Breeland where they might have been "excavated" and taken care of.


VS - in Evendim and now Cardolan - where it's a different thing entirely, with colossal arches, decorated windows, lots of ornamentals, very thick and high walls, very condensed but large spaces, with these super high and mighty towers, collosal buildings, and very stylized, almost "baroque" structures, and even for smaller spaces every column or piece are super solid there and bold. Plus lots of dirt and moss and overall an ugly, dirty, unclear, greeny look for Cardolan. They're ok where they're used but... I wouldn't like it if entire Eriador turned into the same thing as Cardolan... and without any variety...







So... I think the older assets work very nice but there is the dilemma of the North Downs...

[TesalionLortus]

The two main problems with North Downs are:


1. As Phantion pointed out in another thread, Fornost was the capital, after all. While I disagree everything should feel the same in style and I like the assets used in Fornost - it feels to me like they could rival new Cardolan ones in terms of dimension and detailed stonework! - you would expect some traces of "Annuminas styled civilization" to be there, that's for sure. Not exactly super white like the better kept structures in Evendim are, but somehow familiar, maybe with some whiteness and similar forms?


2. Another problem is that, from the world design standpoint/immersion point of view, the visual transition between Fields of Fornost and Evendim (its towers can already be seen from the Fields of Fornost) is super jarring and sudden, in a jarringly colorful and pristine way that the transition from Cardolan to Lone-lands isn't. You're still in North Downs near Fornost but the Evendim's whiteness and shapes are towering over you. Feels wrong somehow and too artificial of a transition, especially that these are parts of the same kingdom.




Let's forget about Fornost for now...

But I think it is fairly easy to solve number 2 and a portion of 1. How? By easing the transition visually, using untravarsable spaces on the horizon and hinting at influences of Evendim throughout and around North Downs.




So, in potential spots I marked on the map:









Cold Blue - Between Northern Evendim and Fields of Fornost there is nothing there - and extremely unlikely for anything to be added, doesn't make much sense (if we do East of Forochel to Angmar it will be up there, but nothing here directly next to Evendim and Fornost). So these adjecent spaces can be used to place some Evendim-styled assets and ruins, looming over the Fields of Fornost. (Albeit mostly more ruined and bleak versions of them? Not as well-kept as in Evendim) So they would be leaking into Fields of Fornost landscape in a way that they can be seen, perhaps all the way to Fornost city, so there is a feeling of interconnectness here throughout the Fields and transition into Evendim won't be as harsh visually.





For example:

[TesalionLortus]

White - Lots of spots that can be used to place some lone ruins or high towers, these can be hinting at "higher Arthedain civilisation" out there, maybe some wealthy villas and such, or lone watch towers. These can have traces of Annuminas style but they can also utilize some of these new updated sets with Arthedain emblems that Scenario mentioned. This can make North Downs feel more like part of Arthedain visually - including traces of some higher kingly architecture but without changing anything that is down there in actual North Downs.





Below is my favorite near small Dourhand encammptent behind Othrikar, really feels like there could have been some high mighty Arthedain watch tower up there on the mountain side, to stand watch against the East on a higher ground, to see whether a cold wind blows from Angmar or something like that... Maybe they had a beacon up there too? Which would be the first in the chain, rather than the smaller one we have in the game in North Downs.











Or here, from the Haudh Eglan hill. Really feels like the horizon could use some more impressive views of "high" Arthedain structures. While what's down there in North Downs proper stays as is - let's think of it as lesser influences mingling with Arnor and/or just cheaper material used for stone work and smaller, regular cities. After all, it's not like every single city in Arnor would be this huge baroque marvel of towering strength!












With this approach, I wouldn't even have any problem at all with Esteldin described as a "hidden city" of the Rangers... because with some of these other, more impressive remains somewhere out there in the distance it wouldn't really feel like the only place you could think of. I mean, Esteldin is indeed hidden within a mountain so that *is* kind of hidden. Plus, BtS solved it anyhow, with how it was only occupied just recently, making it more difficult to figure out for enemies.







Dark Blue - Now, about Fornost... which is far more difficult and requires more time no doubt... so I would be happy if we got these other things I suggested but nothing done with Fornost yet "until there is more time". But, the easiest thing that can be done without any changes to the landscape potions of the city and early portions of instanced space... would be to "extend it" - with a "high city" portion added that could be more kingly and impressively Numenorean, like Annuminas, although still pretty ruined and desacrated. So then, it would be easy to imagine that it could have been a larger lower city once - but still impressive in its prime, before devastation - and this super high city, a new seat of the king after Annuminas/one of the oldest Arnorian keeps up North. Then, from that - some high civilisation, like noble villas and whatnot, would extend throughout the region to the right = the potential spots marked as White. So this Fornost approach would fit perfectly with my other suggested cosmetic solutions.




I think this is a great way to do it and still keep the variety of old Arnorian assets exactly as they are - that I really love for their different characteristics. Also, would be a little different too. Arthedain's memory of high glory would be more distant and not really directly explorable outside of Evendim, but still as impressive, great for distant vistas and evoking its lost greatness as in Cardolan (and potentially core province of Rhudaur that's not yet in the game... so would be nice to fix this North Downs dilemma before we delve into that one!)

[Phantion]

Yep- all of this was exactly what I was trying to say in that other thread We did agree after all!

The idea was to basically draw an imaginary circle of "central Arnorian civilization" that goes around Evendim; it could include some western ruins in an expanded Lune Valley north of Ered Luin / Yondershire and west of Evendim, arc down into the North Moors part of Yondershire where Bar Aroth and those other ruins are, arc around up through those parts of ND that are basically in / around the Fields of Fornost and Fornost itself, and up through northern Evendim as things currently stand in-game.

That'll work I agree the ruins in eastern ND should remain pretty much as they are; they make sense as the ruins of smaller towns built much later in the TA or late-Arnorian fortresses built to try to resist Angmar's forces. Elendil's Arnor was definitely closer to the Ered Luin half of Eriador than the Angmar half. I think it would make sense for Fornost to be that easternmost extent of "the heart of original Arnor" / early Arthedain. Rhudaur's ruins make sense as it basically became a Hill-folk population. Cardolan makes sense due to Tharbad's SA origins.

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Yep- all of this was exactly what I was trying to say in that other thread We did agree after all!

Haha, ok. Well, I guess communication without pictures and such is sometimes lacking. :P

Yeah, that would be nice.


PS: Though the ruin visible on that last picture... there is something off about it so probably better to replace it, in any case

[Phantion]

Haha, ok. Well, I guess communication without pictures and such is sometimes lacking. :P

Yeah, that would be nice.


PS: Though the ruin visible on that last picture... there is something off about it so probably better to replace it, in any case

Yep! I'd also like to see them find a way to just "include the rest of Fornost in the game-world" like they did with North Cotton Farm and Stoneheight- so that there's just a smaller instance entrance somewhere and full game-world exploration of the city up to its top heights.

I've thought of an another idea... which we may or may not agree on, but worth a shot. You know how there's that missing chunk of landscape between Wildwood and the Evendim Pass? What if.... Fornost had a smaller, "sister fortress" on that height- with perhaps the two cities built originally to guard the pass into Evendim.

I could see them making something useful out of that spot if they took that route - the one that blockaded bridge in northern Wildwood leads to. Barad Tharsir could be it's lower outpost on the western side. Those haunted ruins in the southwest corner of Fields of Fornost could be its eastern lower outpost. Obviously, Fornost would still be bigger, and would need higher towers

But it's just a thought of how they could re-purpose that last little missing space. It borders the Greenway with lower hills to the west. It's directly across the cliffs and river from Wildwood most of the way to the Brandywine. It's bordered by Barad Tharsir and some lower blocked hills in Evendim's eastern border. It's bordered by Fields of Fornost to the north.

EDIT: It could be on a smaller scale, more like Tyrn Gorthad / Dor Ernil. It could also be part of an instance cluster like Black Willow and the Forochel Arnor instance - so, more on that scale of content + the visual touch-ups on Fornost and its surrounds. That could be a doable way for them to revisit that neck of the woods on all counts.

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

You know how there's that missing chunk of landscape between Wildwood and the Evendim Pass? What if.... Fornost had a smaller, "sister fortress" on that height- with perhaps the two cities built originally to guard the pass into Evendim.

I could see them making something useful out of that spot if they took that route - the one that blockaded bridge in northern Wildwood leads to. Barad Tharsir could be it's lower outpost on the western side. Those haunted ruins in the southwest corner of Fields of Fornost could be its eastern lower outpost. Obviously, Fornost would still be bigger, and would need higher towers

I mean, sure, yes! Why not. I'm just not sure whether they can justify it I guess? (unless it was something like Ost Dunoth kind of addition, with some instance attached) And even then we would still need some stuff added around the Fields of Fornost to make it more visually tolerable so we can get rid of that sudden Fields/White Evendim visual wall. I guess Fields, being mostly barrows and a few fortresses build with Angmar in mind and then ravaged by WK, do make sense being as they are, but some cosmetic Evendim touches around, in particular between Evendim and Fornost, sound like a solution.

Well, hopefully Scenario can find a bit of time to do that one day... The instanced Fornost being landscape traversable would be neat too. As for the "cosmetic high-city" idea, I guess the later parts of the instance would need an upgrade to blend in a bit better with that too, and maybe that final tower of the instance should be replaced with a more kingly one (that would be either at the front of the higher city or its center, but I guess they can't really mess too much with instance part as far as how the layout of the city is designed, so maybe better to make that tower a front and then have higher, noble part of city behind that - something like, this is where the Arnorian old city was build originally, and then it grew and spread down into the Fields, where the current in-game Fornost is, so you wouldn't find such big buildings or towers down there).

[TesalionLortus]

I've been doing Fornost instances again and I had this very unfortunate realization, Phantion :P Fornost as part of traversable landscape would feel super off narratively. Stoneheight got the same treatment (the landscape version is an empty place AFTER the instance) but at least it is a place a player is less likely to run into and even if they did, they're likely to forget the "off-ness" by the time they are the right lvl to do In Their Absence. Fornost, on the other hand, is too iconic, and almost every player will explore it prematurely if they're given a chance only to then run the instances and... well, super off, suddenly all filled with orcs where did they come from. So not sure whether it could be done and how. I guess maybe if that was possible to have an open version available to you after you're finished with the instances... maybe with phasing used on the main gate? I dunno, but if something like this can't be properly implemented then it's probably not worth to destroy the entire immersion/introduce such confusing weirdness for newbies, just so some of us can have empty open-world Fornost :P

But, back to the main suggestions of the thread, oh we certainly need some "high Arthedain" touches including Fornost. The last instance of Fornost is particularly weird when you look into the distance and at that tower. It looks very good, actually, up to a point, because it very much feels like a higher tier of strongly fortified ancient city with some cool garrison structures, narrow streets and such. But then you look at that tower, which realistically might have been a seat of some noble guild or Master of the City Watch or Tier Governor maybe, and it makes you go... oh, that's it, but where did the king and high councilors reside?

PS: and oh boy, makes me wonder how difficult it actually is to just add something to Fornost... and isn't that 4 times copy-paste work since these are split into 4 instances? (+ fifth for what's visible on landscape?) Or whether they actually have the tech to just automatically apply things to all these from one template

[TesalionLortus]

If Scenario and devs are reading this... I had a nice visual thought!





Correct me if I'm wrong but the softly pyramidal-tower form from Enedwaith isn't really used anywhere else, not even in Cardolan, right?



Enedwaith was said to be fortified and settled by Gondor after the fall of Arnor to keep watch on the road... So what if they built these keeps with this specific triangular style to honor the lastly fallen (and then retaken) Fornost? Which means the royal part of Fornost would have to evoke this form... and the current Fornost's fortified towers have a lot of stonework in triangular, pyramidal forms too... so that could align very well...




The current tiers of Fornost feel very believable to me, if we take into account they were filled with wooden structures, not just stone. In fact, something about Fornost feels like it's one of the most powerful Arnorian fortressed in the game up to date - it's hard to approach, has many walls, tiers/ramparts are very spacey, allowing for many defensive siege engines and clear look into the distance (I wish we could look out into the horizon from the walls better though, in the instances these spots are often inaccessible, under rubble or behind invisible walls). Whereas many of the major others, maybe except for Tharbad and the fortress of Tyrn Gorthad, really feel like these fancy, complex, architectural choices with not enough room to man walls are their weaknesses (not that they are weak and easy to conquer... but certainly much easier target than Fornost or something like Minas Tirith). So that's why I can buy the current Fornost and find it captivating, with cool believable city garrisons such as this one where the boss battle takes place and narrow higher tier streets reminiscent of Dale, with some kind of civic or military council in the Greater Tower looming over it (the one where the final battle takes place).



The only thing I would change about the existing tiers...



Just add some windows and doors where due? Because the super empty stone spaces are pretty distracting/unbelievable here....






But yeah, the lack of place that would feel kingly, noble and fancy enough... this can't be dismissed, so... back to what I said about these Enedwaith structures!





I would definitely remove the things marked in red circles (these smaller resized towers are kinda awkward and fake, the column elements don't feel okay too - doesn't fit the rest and they're super stretched) :















AND THEN ADD SOMETHING LIKE THIS...









Would make Fornost feel truly mighty and expansive, and symmetrical with lower parts that currently exist - like it was truly the last bastion of Arnor, with the original kingly place with enough space for nobles that then grew into the expansive fortified city below. The grand palace in this triangular form would be pretty neat and something different, but still reminiscent of Annuminas style and with these characteristic Evendim spikes (but maybe the triangular tower/form a bit more sharp, like forms of Annuminas ? after all, it feels a bit like the super soft shapes are Gondor's - and by proximity now also Cardolan's - thing)














What I definitely DO NOT approve of...



... is the old "Fornost Pristine" attempt. Feels like someone just added some pieces from different lego set (in the part that works perfectly fine if you imagine lots of wood stuff in there). You get the most pristine just at the lowest tier and then the main tower and keep look... so off and different? I mean, I get the idea that maybe someone tried to evoke this medievalish feeling, with there being a hard-stone highly defensible "keep of the lord" above the city - with cathedrals, fancy houses and whatnot below but... that kind of layout is nowhere near to what exists in the established game-world, plus Fornost would be no medieval lord's seat but Arnorian king's capital. Not to mention the Fornost Pristine assumes the current Fornost's stonework and towers felt as gloomy and unalive in the past as they do now when ruined, but I would disagree, I imagine there was color, reliefs, maybe painted walls and other stuff in there, before it all came to ruin and lost color with passage of time.

[Feral_Yoda]

I kinda disagree with a bunch of stuff here. I don't want ruins in the distance that i can never reach or towers on hills that are beyond the bounds. It makes me want to (and in some cases have... see pretty much all of Gondor) break out of the bounds of the game.

As for a rework of the North Downs and Fornost itself? Why? Its been more than 1500 years since anyone lived there at all. and it was stripped and destroyed by Angmar. It shouldn't look any prettier than it does now. and definitely not to pyramid towers and the like. If anything it should resemble more the Breeland/North Downs/Evendim ruins that exist elsewhere. But i think it stands as it is as a 2000yo fortress town. Its not Gondor, or Evendim which have had people (or Rangers and river Maia) looking after it for ages.

As for opening it up the instance? I'd be down for that. Just like they did for Stonehieght (though i'd wish they'd add some people or landscape bandits to Stonehieght... its so empty like it is now). Personally i'd love landscape versions of all the raids/instances so we could explore them more.

But I also do like Phantion's suggestion for that little bit North of Wildwood. It would make sense for an old ruined fortress to be there as well. Though it is kind of small for an update all on its own. Maybe just a quest-less ruin/monster area up there like they did when they opened up those hills in Angmar some years back (or if they want an open repeatable quest of kill so many of whatever).

[TesalionLortus]

I kinda disagree with a bunch of stuff here. I don't want ruins in the distance that i can never reach or towers on hills that are beyond the bounds. It makes me want to (and in some cases have... see pretty much all of Gondor) break out of the bounds of the game.

Would it be cool to have a new mini area adjacent to North Downs with all these to explore? Sure. Is that feasible and likely? Probably not. But cosmetic improvements beyond the borders are much easier and there is a bunch of stuff like physics, collision and content devs don't even need to worry about. That's why we suggested cosmetic stuff. Think utility sometimes, rather than just me me me. I love some of the Gondorian cosmetic towers beyond the bounds of Belfalas, for example. I think there should be more of them to hint at more cities and villages throughout Gondor. That you can't resist to explore beyond the bounds into something that is clearly not intended to be traversed is on you - but it's a great touch for the game-world, wherever it's used. Game design is both the traversable content part and cosmetic in the distance stuff.

As for a rework of the North Downs and Fornost itself? Why? Its been more than 1500 years since anyone lived there at all. and it was stripped and destroyed by Angmar. It shouldn't look any prettier than it does now. and definitely not to pyramid towers and the like. If anything it should resemble more the Breeland/North Downs/Evendim ruins that exist elsewhere. But i think it stands as it is as a 2000yo fortress town. Its not Gondor, or Evendim which have had people (or Rangers and river Maia) looking after it for ages.

No one said rework. Originally I disagreed with Phantion because I actually thought they meant like complete rework. But no, we mean lore-accuracy at best. Because as it stands, Fornost was both one of the earlier cities of Arnor and the capitol of Arthedain, but it doesn't feel like it had a place for actual kings with its current layout. That's why we suggested an additional section. The pyramidal form strikes me as it would fit better with the rest of Fornost's structures (see how it matches the pyramid additions on its towers) than some random high tower in the thin Anuminnas style, or a tower like from Cardolan (these would be just more off). Also, I don't say pristine pyramid tower - make it as ruined as Cardolan or Enedwaith, or even more. No one was there to care for Cardolan or Enedwaith ruins either and yet you're not here arguing they should be reduced to utter rubble with no trace left of them. No, my suggestion is not pretty (no fancy ornaments or Anorian stars either, because WK would get rid of those), my suggestion is ruined, though you would still recognize it as a seat of kings - which can't really be said about that final tower in the current Fornost... as I said, it could serve as a seat of some military or civic council at best, not a gathering of nobles and king.

Also, as far as actual suggested "additions" to currently existing fortress go... I can't see how you can argue against some doors or windows here and there, because face it, it doesn't feel as good as it should without those