Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[TesalionLortus]

All of that is too big for a single expansion. It's as if you painted over Eriador and said, "hey, expansion this fall." Umbar and surrounding landmass alone could be an expansion. If they want to be throughout, then I have doubts whether Nurn could be just one expansion (...looking at Gorgoroth's size vs Nurn) but a large portion of it would be the waters (and not very friendly ones, probably poisoned/evil somehow), so probably they can manage with this one. But really, Nurn makes the biggest sense narratively, considering the loose ends, plus like someone suggested earlier - freed Nurn could make for a good base/main hub East, before venturing into these vast alien territories and kingdoms both long under the dominion of Sauron and locked in military conflict with the West out of their own imperialistic volition. After all, it wasn't always Sauron who started every single East-West war in existence and Variags themselves are willing war-like mercenaries who act quite independently of Sauron as such

[maartena]

[*]Which would put a level 140+ zone directly connected to a level 50 zone, with the 140 zone taking place long later chronologically.

High level to Low level zone connections aren't uncommon..... the Vales of Anduin (a level 120 zone) is connected to level 60 Lothlorien, and level 40 Misty Mountains. As a player wandering in Lothlorien it is easy to find the entrance to Anduin and as such wander to your death..... because a level 60-65 player is going to get hammered by the first level 120 rat you encounter.

More recently, Swanfleet (a level 1-15 zone) connects directly to Enedwaidth (a level 60-65 zone), and for all intents and purposes that is just as dangerous..... it is not hard to explore a little bit and all over sudden walk through a gate with level 60+ orcs..... and bye bye Undying title!

Also, if you wander around Breeland at level 15-20, you can easily find a way into Wildwoods by accident and get pummeled by a level 45 huorn or something like that.....

I don't necessarily see that as a problem..... it may only be a real issue if you are keen on that Undying title in a few places, as in all other instances..... you venture, you die, you learned your lesson, you come back WAY later.

[TesalionLortus]

I don't necessarily see that as a problem..... it may only be a real issue if you are keen on that Undying title in a few places, as in all other instances..... you venture, you die, you learned your lesson, you come back WAY later.

Yeah, it's not a problem. They should just nerf the aggro to make it more sane now, given how in Swanfleet you're not merely defeated for venturing - you're defeated for standing at the border and looking over a small hill, all along the Eastern border, and that's silly.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

All of that is too big for a single expansion. It's as if you painted over Eriador and said, "hey, expansion this fall." Umbar and surrounding landmass alone could be an expansion. If they want to be throughout, then I have doubts whether Nurn could be just one expansion (...looking at Gorgoroth's size vs Nurn) but a large portion of it would be the waters (and not very friendly ones, probably poisoned/evil somehow), so probably they can manage with this one. But really, Nurn makes the biggest sense narratively, considering the loose ends, plus like someone suggested earlier - freed Nurn could make for a good base/main hub East, before venturing into these vast alien territories and kingdoms both long under the dominion of Sauron and locked in military conflict with the West out of their own imperialistic volition. After all, it wasn't always Sauron who started every single East-West war in existence and Variags themselves are willing war-like mercenaries who act quite independently of Sauron as such

I don't really get this "Nurn as a hub" idea.

According to LOTR canon Sauron chose Mordor as his base because its surrounded on 3 sides by mountains, and on those three sides surrounded by mountains there were only 2, relatively small, passes. One of which being the pass that became the black gate, and the other being the Morgul pass. Nurn doesn't, or at least it shouldn't connect to Khand, and by extension Harad/Rhun.

The only other way in and out of Mordor is via Lithlad, which is the back end of Mordor which doesn't have mountains on it, but that connects only directly to Rhun. Even then, SSG's Rhun plot is overwhelmingly in the north, not the south. Id make more sense to have some place in Horandor a hub for the south since that actually has direct access to Khand and Harad.

Ah! I knew about the comment re: oceans, and whether we liked them or not..... but not that it was far away from Minhirath.

So with that said..... because a few years back the stable map was magically expanded southwards, with a whole empty area where South Gondor could fit in.... I'm going to venture a guess and say that is where we will go next:

- Level 140 zone in early Q2 named "South Gondor" or maybe "Harondor", looking at the Middle Earth map. It would be on the coast towards the west.
- Level 150 full expansion in early Q4 encompassing several Harad zones such as Near Harad, Far Harad, Nafarat, The Cursed Lands..... with Umbar as the new player hub with all facilities. It would also be on the coast towards the west.
- Possible 2024: Khand or Nurn level 150 zone, linking back up to Mordor.

Quick amateurish map:

It would certainly be an interesting story to tell. It does not seem likely it will be continuation of Epic book V, but we could see a new "Book of Gondor" type Epic quest line that will takes us into South Gondor, and then into Harad....

Harondor itself is pretty much as big as Gorgorth was, so expansion level sized. The map you propose here is like 5 expansion sized maps rolled into one. There's also a non expansion sized map region between Eastern Gondor and Harondor as is.

So we would need a map for "Southgard", an expansion for Harondor, and either a portal from the southern bit of Harondor to Umbar, or another non-expansion size map between, to connect Harondor to Umbar.

Also, not sure where you got this map but everything on that map, outside of the location of Umbar, is 100% noncanon. There are no known citites or landmarks in Harad outside of Umbar, the desert, and the existence of a jungle in the south.

[TesalionLortus]

I don't really get this "Nurn as a hub" idea.

According to LOTR canon Sauron chose Mordor as his base because its surrounded on 3 sides by mountains, and on those three sides surrounded by mountains there were only 2, relatively small, passes. One of which being the pass that became the black gate, and the other being the Morgul pass. Nurn doesn't, or at least it shouldn't connect to Khand, and by extension Harad/Rhun.

The only other way in and out of Mordor is via Lithlad, which is the back end of Mordor which doesn't have mountains on it, but that connects only directly to Rhun. Even then, SSG's Rhun plot is overwhelmingly in the north, not the south.

Isn't the exact location of Khand a little dubious in canon though? It's in the corner below but you can also meet with cases when it's drawn in the backyard of Mordor, hinting at its size.

With canon and connections I would need to check, although you may be right these two were only ever mentioned/suggested as only passes. But bringing up that old map before there was an actual map of Mordor in the game...



You can see they did marked a pass to Harad/Khand on it, whether these plans changed or not remains to be seen. As for the "hub" idea - it's more about Nurn being this friendly territory when freed/in its main hub. Imagine Galtrev, for example. (more friendly/stable/homely than Rhun or Harad, which would be awkward if we started to have these cozy friendly settlements and hubs in these lands all over the place). Not really about said hub having any direct roads all around to all these unexplored lands. But traveling to Khand/Harad/Rhun from the backyard (or through this Southern pass) might be a valid idea

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Isn't the exact location of Khand a little dubious in canon though? It's in the corner below but you can also meet with cases when it's drawn in the backyard of Mordor, hinting at its size.

With canon and connections I would need to check, although you may be right these two were only ever mentioned/suggested as only passes. But bringing up that old map before there was an actual map of Mordor in the game...

You can see they did marked a pass to Harad/Khand on it, whether these plans changed or not remains to be seen. As for the "hub" idea - it's more about Nurn being this friendly territory when freed/in its main hub. Imagine Galtrev, for example. (more friendly/stable/homely than Rhun or Harad, which would be awkward if we started to have these cozy friendly settlements and hubs in these lands all over the place). Not really about said hub having any direct roads all around to all these unexplored lands. But traveling to Khand/Harad/Rhun from the backyard (or through this Southern pass) might be a valid idea

No, the location of Khand was marked all the way back in the maps of Middle Earth Tolken himself made. Its to the south south-east of Mordor. With Rhun taking up the eastern side of Mordor.



Most of what is south of Mordor is Near Harad, which is said to be an empty desert. Umbar is stated to be the closest of the Harad kingdoms to Gondor. There may be some small oasis villages, not belonging to any kingdom there, but you don't really get into the actual lived area of Harad until you go south of Umbar.

[miriadel]

if ssg wants to make Nurn a hub, they'll do it, as they've done with other regions before

[TesalionLortus]

Most of what is south of Mordor is Near Harad, which is said to be an empty desert. Umbar is stated to be the closest of the Harad kingdoms to Gondor. There may be some small oasis villages, not belonging to any kingdom there, but you don't really get into the actual lived area of Harad until you go south of Umbar.

Well, in LOTRO nothing is just empty though and everything has more context. I'm still a bit not over their addition of Herne. Mossward I was fine with, like it's on the furthest edge, bordering Western Enedwaith, but it was a stretch with Herne (though it's certainly made for a good story moments, plus if we're measuring fairly... the distance from any hunted barrows is equal or more to the one between Barrow-downs and Bree itself, so I guess that's justification enough even if technically lore-breaking)

Besides, in Harad, even the empty sands could hold some history. That's the kind of thing I expect them to play with in these biomes.

The kingdom would usually mean the core and what's always there, not the ever-changing borders or clans that come under dominion or not. Any such oasis settlements would be targets of such domination too, not just happy to live oblivious. Besides, even in more remote areas, there could be resources or mining spots suitable to establish an outpost. Or breeding grounds for Mumakils - these would be of great interests for the war effort. Travelling through Harad (or Rhun) doesn't mean we come across a lively city at every turn, with everything being so condensed. Things can be more spread out, but still some communities here and there, and yeah, like you said, going South of Umbar things become more condense with settlements, especially where it's not just desert areas.

[Scenario]

if ssg wants to make Nurn a hub, they'll do it, as they've done with other regions before

Because LOTRO is a game, we will always have a need to bend things a little bit in order to support player needs in an area. Herne, for example, was a creation of ours so that we could have a "major" populated hub in Cardolan that included all the major town services. Because of the starter-experience focus of Before the Shadow, we didn't want to force players to have to leave the region and disrupt their play and progression to go to Bree-town.

Even the most abandoned regions need a little bit of civilization in them in order to allow players to continue play continuity within that region. Is it gamey and not in line with the spirit of certain regions? Sure. But we're okay with making that compromise in order to give players access to town services without forcing them to disengage from their content flow.

[miriadel]

I agree with that, that's why I said if you want to add a hub to a desolated region, you'll simply do it. Gameplay and convenience more often than not must take precedence over realism, otherwise we'd have less than half the quests and hubs already present in game... since Middle Earth is largely unhabited

[TesalionLortus]

Herne, for example, was a creation of ours so that we could have a "major" populated hub in Cardolan that included all the major town services. Because of the starter-experience focus of Before the Shadow, we didn't want to force players to have to leave the region and disrupt their play and progression to go to Bree-town.

Technically, one is still forced to disrupt it because of the trainer quests in Bree (I mean, if a player cares about these, though they're not essential). But yeah, I warmed up to Herne and it's not such a big deal, if we take into consideration the distances - if Bree, at least in the game, appears so close to ghostly areas, so can Herne. Although, there is a part of me that wonders why didn't you take the Mossward route - by pushing it as far South as possible, so it's a borderland town tuck away from all the dangers of Cardolan, rather than in the middle of it.

[Phantion]

Because LOTRO is a game, we will always have a need to bend things a little bit in order to support player needs in an area. Herne, for example, was a creation of ours so that we could have a "major" populated hub in Cardolan that included all the major town services. Because of the starter-experience focus of Before the Shadow, we didn't want to force players to have to leave the region and disrupt their play and progression to go to Bree-town.

Even the most abandoned regions need a little bit of civilization in them in order to allow players to continue play continuity within that region. Is it gamey and not in line with the spirit of certain regions? Sure. But we're okay with making that compromise in order to give players access to town services without forcing them to disengage from their content flow.

Well, to be fair: there is a lore justification to Herne.

One of the things that I find interesting is this "literal thinking" about the lore that many seem to buy into. To me, Tolkien's writing process actually produces a ton of ambiguities and different ways for different readers to interpret the text. Now, hold my Death Star. I'm not going to say: "therefore, there's no such thing as lore, there are no rules" - as plainly, there are. We cannot quite conjure Star Destroyers attacking dragons or the Enterprise going after the Witch-King. But, that said: I don't view the lore as "hard-line, literal" as many seem to think it is. That's simply my view though

When Tolkien was drafting LOTR, including the Bree chapter where we learn about the refugees of war coming up from the south, it was not clear to him yet - as the writer - that "The Silmarillion" was in the same world as "The Hobbit." Gondor did not yet exist. Rohan did not yet exist.

But Tolkien never edited those refugees from the south out of the text. Tharbad was a flood zone and a mess to cross - and we know this from Boromir. Therefore, it is entirely clear to me, in my interpretation, that some folk at least lived somewhere in Minhiriath - though it was mostly a deserted land.

Apply Tolkien's map-scale to the lands surrounding Herne. All of a sudden, the game's smaller scale notwithstanding, it takes weeks to travel to Bree along the Greenway from the south - and months to travel out from there to the coast, virtually every other direction. Therefore, to my mind, Herne's existence preserves the lore ---almost--- perfectly.

Except for one detail: it would've made more sense to me if that caravan of folks in Andrath were fleeing northward to Bree rather than traveling southward looking to settle - since, after all, it's in the same time-frame as Butterbur talking about many folks coming up toward Bree.

But as to Herne itself - - - I see it. The text is ambiguous enough to suggest an extension of Bree culture southward that is increasingly under threat to the south, resulting in a general migration northward - Saruman's spies among them.

Similarly, with places like Umbar, Harad, Khand, etc., you could have smaller enclaves of hidden rebellion - like the Boar Clan and Avanc-luth in Dunland - who oppose Sauron, perhaps related to the failure of the Blue Wizards and so forth, and certainly lore-justified by Sam's observations during the Haradrim foray in Ithilien. They would've fought a losing battle and perhaps been forced underground - but I'd still see it as plausible and a potential way to introduce some new player-hubs in those zones.

For Nurn, King Elessar could simply send-in some Gondorian (*and perhaps some Dunedain) reinforcements to help protect the liberated Nurnhoth as they settle their new land - an extension of the Conquest of Gorgoroth if you will - and provide town services just like that camp right where Ithilien dips into Imlad Morgul.

We also need to remember something else. Sometimes, we'll automatically re-interpret a region as mostly desolate because Tolkien didn't provide as many details for it - such as the missing lands between the inland Sea of Rhun and the Great River - when, actually, there's a far more simpler and logical explanation: Tolkien was, first and foremost, writing a story. The world-building serves the story - not the other way around. You'll notice that most of the lands between the Grey Havens and Mordor are filled-in precisely because our protagonists, Frodo and Sam, and their companions traveled in them over the course of their narratives. We know more about north-central Eriador because Frodo journeys out to Rivendell. We know more about the path to Moria and Lothlorien because the Fellowship took that path. We know more of Rohan and Gondor and the lands surrounding Mordor and northwestern Mordor for those same reasons.

Why do we know less of Rhun and other places? Well, because Tolkien was a husband, a father, and then, a Professor - and finally, a writer. He had tons of papers to grade, tons of lectures to deliver, and when he found time for his writing, he was mainly focused on the stories he wanted to tell at those moments in his life. There are only 24 hours in a day for everyone; Tolkien's no exception. For another simple reason: Frodo never went there.

So, is it plausible for LOTRO to envision these places as not entirely "the blank spaces" of the map? YES. Of course, in the end- that's because my interpretation of LOTR tends to look for "the spaces within the spaces"- the realms of possibility and the sense of hidden depths and unsolved mysteries that really make LOTR work as an imagined body of myth.

The game will have a de facto distinct vision to itself as LOTRO both due to its medium as a game and also because, as a game, it really needs to provide "solutions" to those mysteries. LOTRO's Moria is far less mysterious than Tolkien's because we can explore every depth of it- and that's a natural consequence of the medium and also what makes LOTRO really fun to play! In short: "The road goes ever on and on" - and I look forward to discovering what's behind the next bend! Thanks, Scenario!

Technically, one is still forced to disrupt it because of the trainer quests in Bree (I mean, if a player cares about these, though they're not essential). But yeah, I warmed up to Herne and it's not such a big deal, if we take into consideration the distances - if Bree, at least in the game, appears so close to ghostly areas, so can Herne. Although, there is a part of me that wonders why didn't you take the Mossward route - by pushing it as far South as possible, so it's a borderland town tuck away from all the dangers of Cardolan, rather than in the middle of it.

I can see it going either way. It seems to me they needed it in the middle for their storytelling to work - and to make a certain number of riders more of an active threat to it on their way to a certain destination I'm just glad it's south of Caranost so it's not directly wedged so close to Tyrn Gorthad as the Bree-land Homesteads are now due to the nature of LOTRO's scale, which I get couldn't be helped hehehe

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Similarly, with places like Umbar, Harad, Khand, etc., you could have smaller enclaves of hidden rebellion - like the Boar Clan and Avanc-luth in Dunland - who oppose Sauron, perhaps related to the failure of the Blue Wizards and so forth, and certainly lore-justified by Sam's observations during the Haradrim foray in Ithilien. They would've fought a losing battle and perhaps been forced underground - but I'd still see it as plausible and a potential way to introduce some new player-hubs in those zones.

Such pockets may exist of course, and varied in nature (so not just against Sauron because evil, but potentially against other clans/kingdoms, the intricacies of their internal politics). But what I would like to see, for a change, is a sort of "neutral" hub (maybe with enemy districts/areas or something?). Like, you are one Westerner, gamey outfit you chose aside, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to say you keep a low profile and can easily enter one of their bigger cities to use their services. Now, this is a game of course, and they need NPCs with quests, sure. But having this "romantic good rebels" trope, hey you earnt our trust now go and slay our enemies in the camp next door, even in these distant lands, sounds like a bit too much of the same. Whereas, if you took a correct design approach, a more neutral city where you're not handheld and more like an infiltrator with your own POV is a very real concept that could happen and still have all the essential services and splendor of a hub. For some of the quest design/dangers, albeit in limited scope, Dale/Lake-town comes to mind (with its shady alleys and crime networks), the "Dunlending district" of Western Rohan or perhaps that Rhun/Harad "town" of Mordor (though this one was more like a standard enemy camp except with quests but it had interesting mechanics).

We also need to remember something else. Sometimes, we'll automatically re-interpret a region as mostly desolate because Tolkien didn't provide as many details for it - such as the missing lands between the inland Sea of Rhun and the Great River - when, actually, there's a far more simpler and logical explanation: Tolkien was, first and foremost, writing a story. The world-building serves the story - not the other way around. You'll notice that most of the lands between the Grey Havens and Mordor are filled-in precisely because our protagonists, Frodo and Sam, and their companions traveled in them over the course of their narratives. We know more about north-central Eriador because Frodo journeys out to Rivendell. We know more about the path to Moria and Lothlorien because the Fellowship took that path. We know more of Rohan and Gondor and the lands surrounding Mordor and northwestern Mordor for those same reasons.

YES, exactly. I would still say Herne is a bit more awkward, being in the middle of Cardolan filled with some dangerous ghostly ruins, and by having a status of a full blown small town (unlike all the stuff North or the Eglain back from SoA). Well, Scenario just said it was much more "looking for compromise" rather than "filling in the blanks of lore" so no need to try and justify it. But generally, yeah, I agree! The world wouldn't be just empty empty just because Tolkien didn't specifically chose a certain piece of land as his setting and gave it an exceptionally brief passage only.

[Elmagor]

YES, exactly. I would still say Herne is a bit more awkward, being in the middle of Cardolan filled with some dangerous ghostly ruins, and by having a status of a full blown small town (unlike all the stuff North or the Eglain back from SoA). Well, Scenario just said it was much more "looking for compromise" rather than "filling in the blanks of lore" so no need to try and justify it. But generally, yeah, I agree! The world wouldn't be just empty empty just because Tolkien didn't specifically chose a certain piece of land as his setting and gave it an exceptionally brief passage only.

Gandalf as example never venture to east, and he one of main sources for info in books. So can we consider what east countries empty just because we don't have any info about them? Of course not

[Scenario]

Technically, one is still forced to disrupt it because of the trainer quests in Bree (I mean, if a player cares about these, though they're not essential). But yeah, I warmed up to Herne and it's not such a big deal, if we take into consideration the distances - if Bree, at least in the game, appears so close to ghostly areas, so can Herne. Although, there is a part of me that wonders why didn't you take the Mossward route - by pushing it as far South as possible, so it's a borderland town tuck away from all the dangers of Cardolan, rather than in the middle of it.

For a couple of reasons. Major hubs being central to the region they live in are generally "better", allowing more content to easily spoke out of them, and allowing the area around them to feel bigger and less bottle-necked. Being central also makes it easier to return to them. Herne and Lhan Garan (which we consider the "major hub" of Swanfleet) are both fairly centrally located to the regions they reside in. Also, from the story telling perspective, having the hub situated on/near the Greenway gave us the opportunity to more easily show the reaction of the townfolk to certain antagonists traveling through the region on their mission - forcing those characters to hook south just to have that story beat wouldn't have felt as natural.

[TesalionLortus]

For a couple of reasons. Major hubs being central to the region they live in are generally "better", allowing more content to easily spoke out of them, and allowing the area around them to feel bigger and less bottle-necked. Being central also makes it easier to return to them. Herne and Lhan Garan (which we consider the "major hub" of Swanfleet) are both fairly centrally located to the regions they reside in. Also, from the story telling perspective, having the hub situated on/near the Greenway gave us the opportunity to more easily show the reaction of the townfolk to certain antagonists traveling through the region on their mission - forcing those characters to hook south just to have that story beat wouldn't have felt as natural.

Thanks, Scenario. I didn't really thought of Lhan Garan as a major hub (and there are not much of activities that you actually gotta return to it for) but now that you mentioned it I think it has some services. Makes sense. Well, yeah, these are all good reasons enough when accumulated.

Though, from my personal experience, I don't think a lack a major settlement ( or even any settlement) makes areas around bottlenecked and smaller? Due to the game'y, resized nature of the world and the fact how much space a settlement actually covers, to me it feels the opposite - if there are major settlements in the center of each zone, then everything becomes kind of smaller in scope and wherever you are, there is always a lived-in place on the horizon (or ruins of a once lived-in space, if we talk Arnor). It's a game so it's not bad or anything, but to be able to look into a vast open space from time to time and feel the wilderness without strong sign of settlement on a horizon (and make that a vast open, flat space, without too much hills getting in the way from each direction) now that would be pretty neat too I'm trying to think right now but I can't immediately bring up any example from the game. Hmm, perhaps parts of Rohan, away from the mountains in particular, like that stretch of fields in Sutcrofts with a view into Eastfold (but even there you have Snowbourn in the way, though a bit closer to river than outright center, but the whole thing wouldn't be anywhere near close the size of Cardolan, for example, so still more on the small side). Hmm, maybe sometime in Minhiriath. Or flatlands in Rhun. Or Harad (well, I guess this would be a given treatment for something like a desert). Who knows where fate will take us...

[Feral_Yoda]

Well, to be fair: there is a lore justification to Herne.

One of the things that I find interesting is this "literal thinking" about the lore that many seem to buy into. To me, Tolkien's writing process actually produces a ton of ambiguities and different ways for different readers to interpret the text. Now, hold my Death Star. I'm not going to say: "therefore, there's no such thing as lore, there are no rules" - as plainly, there are. We cannot quite conjure Star Destroyers attacking dragons or the Enterprise going after the Witch-King. But, that said: I don't view the lore as "hard-line, literal" as many seem to think it is. That's simply my view though

When Tolkien was drafting LOTR, including the Bree chapter where we learn about the refugees of war coming up from the south, it was not clear to him yet - as the writer - that "The Silmarillion" was in the same world as "The Hobbit." Gondor did not yet exist. Rohan did not yet exist.

But Tolkien never edited those refugees from the south out of the text. Tharbad was a flood zone and a mess to cross - and we know this from Boromir. Therefore, it is entirely clear to me, in my interpretation, that some folk at least lived somewhere in Minhiriath - though it was mostly a deserted land.

Apply Tolkien's map-scale to the lands surrounding Herne. All of a sudden, the game's smaller scale notwithstanding, it takes weeks to travel to Bree along the Greenway from the south - and months to travel out from there to the coast, virtually every other direction. Therefore, to my mind, Herne's existence preserves the lore ---almost--- perfectly.

Except for one detail: it would've made more sense to me if that caravan of folks in Andrath were fleeing northward to Bree rather than traveling southward looking to settle - since, after all, it's in the same time-frame as Butterbur talking about many folks coming up toward Bree.

But as to Herne itself - - - I see it. The text is ambiguous enough to suggest an extension of Bree culture southward that is increasingly under threat to the south, resulting in a general migration northward - Saruman's spies among them.

Similarly, with places like Umbar, Harad, Khand, etc., you could have smaller enclaves of hidden rebellion - like the Boar Clan and Avanc-luth in Dunland - who oppose Sauron, perhaps related to the failure of the Blue Wizards and so forth, and certainly lore-justified by Sam's observations during the Haradrim foray in Ithilien. They would've fought a losing battle and perhaps been forced underground - but I'd still see it as plausible and a potential way to introduce some new player-hubs in those zones.

For Nurn, King Elessar could simply send-in some Gondorian (*and perhaps some Dunedain) reinforcements to help protect the liberated Nurnhoth as they settle their new land - an extension of the Conquest of Gorgoroth if you will - and provide town services just like that camp right where Ithilien dips into Imlad Morgul.

We also need to remember something else. Sometimes, we'll automatically re-interpret a region as mostly desolate because Tolkien didn't provide as many details for it - such as the missing lands between the inland Sea of Rhun and the Great River - when, actually, there's a far more simpler and logical explanation: Tolkien was, first and foremost, writing a story. The world-building serves the story - not the other way around. You'll notice that most of the lands between the Grey Havens and Mordor are filled-in precisely because our protagonists, Frodo and Sam, and their companions traveled in them over the course of their narratives. We know more about north-central Eriador because Frodo journeys out to Rivendell. We know more about the path to Moria and Lothlorien because the Fellowship took that path. We know more of Rohan and Gondor and the lands surrounding Mordor and northwestern Mordor for those same reasons.

Why do we know less of Rhun and other places? Well, because Tolkien was a husband, a father, and then, a Professor - and finally, a writer. He had tons of papers to grade, tons of lectures to deliver, and when he found time for his writing, he was mainly focused on the stories he wanted to tell at those moments in his life. There are only 24 hours in a day for everyone; Tolkien's no exception. For another simple reason: Frodo never went there.

So, is it plausible for LOTRO to envision these places as not entirely "the blank spaces" of the map? YES. Of course, in the end- that's because my interpretation of LOTR tends to look for "the spaces within the spaces"- the realms of possibility and the sense of hidden depths and unsolved mysteries that really make LOTR work as an imagined body of myth.

The game will have a de facto distinct vision to itself as LOTRO both due to its medium as a game and also because, as a game, it really needs to provide "solutions" to those mysteries. LOTRO's Moria is far less mysterious than Tolkien's because we can explore every depth of it- and that's a natural consequence of the medium and also what makes LOTRO really fun to play! In short: "The road goes ever on and on" - and I look forward to discovering what's behind the next bend! Thanks, Scenario!



I can see it going either way. It seems to me they needed it in the middle for their storytelling to work - and to make a certain number of riders more of an active threat to it on their way to a certain destination I'm just glad it's south of Caranost so it's not directly wedged so close to Tyrn Gorthad as the Bree-land Homesteads are now due to the nature of LOTRO's scale, which I get couldn't be helped hehehe

Cheers!

Agree 100%

Abandoned and empty lands does not mean 100% empty. It means not a lot of people. Sure the plague and harsh winters, and war and all that depopulated it and brought Cardolan and the other kingdoms down. But there will always be survivors and regular folk trying to just make it. Or people fed up with their neighbors looking for some place to sprout back up. The hobbits moved into the shire, i see no reason why a few hardy folk couldn't move into a depopulated Cardolan (as we see still happening). And yeah i think the same would work for South Gondor and even parts of Nurn (not exactly people moving back in... but the Nurnhoth picking back up the pieces of their lives post Sauron).

And really Herne is in the most logical place... that point where where two roads diverge, just like Bree at its crossroads. If there's going to be a remnant population with a more permanent setup they'll more than likely be there.

[Estelher]

Well, to be fair: there is a lore justification to Herne.

One of the things that I find interesting is this "literal thinking" about the lore that many seem to buy into. To me, Tolkien's writing process actually produces a ton of ambiguities and different ways for different readers to interpret the text. Now, hold my Death Star. I'm not going to say: "therefore, there's no such thing as lore, there are no rules" - as plainly, there are. We cannot quite conjure Star Destroyers attacking dragons or the Enterprise going after the Witch-King. But, that said: I don't view the lore as "hard-line, literal" as many seem to think it is. That's simply my view though

When Tolkien was drafting LOTR, including the Bree chapter where we learn about the refugees of war coming up from the south, it was not clear to him yet - as the writer - that "The Silmarillion" was in the same world as "The Hobbit." Gondor did not yet exist. Rohan did not yet exist.

But Tolkien never edited those refugees from the south out of the text. Tharbad was a flood zone and a mess to cross - and we know this from Boromir. Therefore, it is entirely clear to me, in my interpretation, that some folk at least lived somewhere in Minhiriath - though it was mostly a deserted land.

Apply Tolkien's map-scale to the lands surrounding Herne. All of a sudden, the game's smaller scale notwithstanding, it takes weeks to travel to Bree along the Greenway from the south - and months to travel out from there to the coast, virtually every other direction. Therefore, to my mind, Herne's existence preserves the lore ---almost--- perfectly.

Except for one detail: it would've made more sense to me if that caravan of folks in Andrath were fleeing northward to Bree rather than traveling southward looking to settle - since, after all, it's in the same time-frame as Butterbur talking about many folks coming up toward Bree.

But as to Herne itself - - - I see it. The text is ambiguous enough to suggest an extension of Bree culture southward that is increasingly under threat to the south, resulting in a general migration northward - Saruman's spies among them.

Similarly, with places like Umbar, Harad, Khand, etc., you could have smaller enclaves of hidden rebellion - like the Boar Clan and Avanc-luth in Dunland - who oppose Sauron, perhaps related to the failure of the Blue Wizards and so forth, and certainly lore-justified by Sam's observations during the Haradrim foray in Ithilien. They would've fought a losing battle and perhaps been forced underground - but I'd still see it as plausible and a potential way to introduce some new player-hubs in those zones.

For Nurn, King Elessar could simply send-in some Gondorian (*and perhaps some Dunedain) reinforcements to help protect the liberated Nurnhoth as they settle their new land - an extension of the Conquest of Gorgoroth if you will - and provide town services just like that camp right where Ithilien dips into Imlad Morgul.

We also need to remember something else. Sometimes, we'll automatically re-interpret a region as mostly desolate because Tolkien didn't provide as many details for it - such as the missing lands between the inland Sea of Rhun and the Great River - when, actually, there's a far more simpler and logical explanation: Tolkien was, first and foremost, writing a story. The world-building serves the story - not the other way around. You'll notice that most of the lands between the Grey Havens and Mordor are filled-in precisely because our protagonists, Frodo and Sam, and their companions traveled in them over the course of their narratives. We know more about north-central Eriador because Frodo journeys out to Rivendell. We know more about the path to Moria and Lothlorien because the Fellowship took that path. We know more of Rohan and Gondor and the lands surrounding Mordor and northwestern Mordor for those same reasons.

Why do we know less of Rhun and other places? Well, because Tolkien was a husband, a father, and then, a Professor - and finally, a writer. He had tons of papers to grade, tons of lectures to deliver, and when he found time for his writing, he was mainly focused on the stories he wanted to tell at those moments in his life. There are only 24 hours in a day for everyone; Tolkien's no exception. For another simple reason: Frodo never went there.

So, is it plausible for LOTRO to envision these places as not entirely "the blank spaces" of the map? YES. Of course, in the end- that's because my interpretation of LOTR tends to look for "the spaces within the spaces"- the realms of possibility and the sense of hidden depths and unsolved mysteries that really make LOTR work as an imagined body of myth.

The game will have a de facto distinct vision to itself as LOTRO both due to its medium as a game and also because, as a game, it really needs to provide "solutions" to those mysteries. LOTRO's Moria is far less mysterious than Tolkien's because we can explore every depth of it- and that's a natural consequence of the medium and also what makes LOTRO really fun to play! In short: "The road goes ever on and on" - and I look forward to discovering what's behind the next bend! Thanks, Scenario!



I can see it going either way. It seems to me they needed it in the middle for their storytelling to work - and to make a certain number of riders more of an active threat to it on their way to a certain destination I'm just glad it's south of Caranost so it's not directly wedged so close to Tyrn Gorthad as the Bree-land Homesteads are now due to the nature of LOTRO's scale, which I get couldn't be helped hehehe

Cheers!

Very well put, and I couldn't agree more. I've always thought this about Tolkien's maps, and to my mind there is circumstantial proof. If you look at Tolkien's maps of Rohan and Gondor, he includes very few urban settlements - in Rohan, only Edoras and Helm's Deep (despite himself mentioning Aldburg as Eorl's original seat); and yet both nations can, even at their lowest ebb, field armies numbering in the thousands, and at their greatest - at least in the latter case - tens of thousands. Those numbers simply would not have been possible in a non-nomadic people without a considerable number of settlements, of varying sizes.

If one considers the Battle of Stamford Bridge in England in 1066, the English army - constituting for the most part the muster of Earls Edwin and Morcar of Mercia and Northumbria, supplemented by what forces Harold could quickly gather along with his huscarls - numbered some 15,000-20,000, and that part of England was not some unsettled land with only a couple of urban centres: far from it. Tolkien had a masterful knowledge of that period and realm, and couldn't possibly have considered his own invented nations to have been able to muster similar forces without knowing that population centres, not just individual agricultural settlements, were implied.

The only possible inference, I would argue, is that he only included the very greatest cities and most relevant towns in his maps, and that therefore blank spaces do not necessarily mean empty wastelands

[Hierona]

Well, it is semi announced that maybe there will be a new quest zone around Angmar in 2023, and that we will not go to Rhûn or Harad yet. My guess would be it will be the area between Câr Bronach and Angmar and going more to the north. Might be interesting to see regular Angmarim cities and Hobgoblin breeding grounds and towns. Maybe see some of the Eldgang return in the west of the zone.

[miriadel]

well... what about Sev going on with the smell of salt air then? honestly, I'm just fed up with Eriador and Eriador mobs in general XD

[Hierona]

Yeah, that is what confused me about the news from Orion aswell. Could be he was just baiting and we are going south afterall, but he said somewhere around Angmar. Could be that we are going Forodwaith and there is a frozen sea or something, or going north of Forochel into Forodwaith and explore more of the bay of Forochel.

Tbh, I am also sick of Eriador, but mainly the low level hobbit stuff. XD I wouldn't mind if we are going northwards to real new kind of landscapes.

[TesalionLortus]

Yeah, that is what confused me about the news from Orion aswell.

Where were these news? Every LOTRO communication channel looks empty?

[TesalionLortus]

Ah, nevermind, I've seen this now. Hmm, yeah, sounds like Rhun and Harad won't get announced in any shape nor form, same for Southern Gondor probably, and that there might be at least an "Angmar something" quest pack. This could be something cap relevant that leads to Forochel/Forodwaith (and you do have sea water in Forochel but who knows whether that would be for next expansion or not) or just a lower level fill-in-the-gaps area.

Nothing disqualifies Nurn though. Technically, I would closely associate any mention of Umbar with Harad since it's close-by, pretty much part of the entire Harad landmass, but then again, who knows how Orion thinks of this, so we cannot be sure on this one, and there was that weird Minhiriath ship.

There was also the mention of going back to old places again but this can mean literally anything, including going back to Angmar for something, if they are doing something Angmar-centered. Or this mention might also be tied into hobbitsy stuff since they did mention these elusive river hobbits (that Scenario mentioned don't need to be tied to any current timeframe/story) and the next premium housing with fences is definitely a hobbit housing. But in that case, both premium housing and a race can be self-contained, kind of a sideline theme (like Erebor housing was) and not really tied to new stories/landmasses.

Personally, I really wouldn't mind if they went the Forochel route - because they can make more use of that automated method for generating snowy structures that they used in Gundabad. Went through these parts of Gundabad again and wow, they feel great. My only wish is a character could leave steps in the snow when walking on these but currently they're treated as regular textures and nothing gets imprinted. (Same texture generation method could be used for something like a desert sand I guess, but that requires Harad).

[miriadel]

it needs to be a lvl 140 area, whichever it will be. They can't keep on neglecting the level cap players by giving a handful of missions/delvings and think it is enough to keep them entertained amidst a sea of lowbie regions (pun intended)

[TesalionLortus]

If that's around Angmar, so Angmar-Forochel-Car Bronach line, then easy to have it be lvl cap. The only place that I would find a bit weird, and strangely in the middle, is if they gave the Rhudaur/Mt Gram gap a level cap treatment.