Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Arnand_the_Fox]

I mean, that's true and understandable that their takes on the places established in the lore might align with SSG's, and the map is indeed very nice! But what I meant is that I often see people taking this map for granted as in "this what this spot gonna be, or how it's bordered" but not even the Kallioita needs to be right and can be named totally something else in a different fashion or even split into different differently bordered zones.

I believe the Umbar borders they outlined might be correct for how SSG are going to do this, roughly, as a "political entity". With this difference that some of these "further ashore" lands may be more like vassal satellites and some early sneak peak into Harad at some of the borders, rather than everything directly under control of Umbarim all the time. Think more a consolidated pirate "kingdom" with its very own infrastructure, maybe smaller ports along the coast, for everything associated with the water and near it (or up the rivers, potentially, if we get any) and then some smaller satellite states/villages/cities/whatnot, not as directly controlled.

Ohh yeah, on that first part I agree. Its a rough guide, not an absolute holy text of how things will be set up.

As for Umbar itself, even if we get a Gorgorth sized expansion landmass, which was pretty sizeable in itself, I think we'll really only get something around the size of what I circled below. The city itself sitting on the back of the bay, with a 3-4 smaller towns/forts akin to the size of the larger Gorgorth forts on either side of the interior of the bay as logical "defenses" for the city. The bay itself basically being a "Mount Doom" empty space filler for the map like Gorgoroth had. The area he highlighted is nearly twice as large as Swanfleet and Cardolan combined, and those really got released at that size due to those areas/content being very spread out. I would expect Umbar to be more content dense owing to it being a large fort city with some serious ship building industry.

[Deriaph]

I mean, that's true and understandable that their takes on the places established in the lore might align with SSG's, and the map is indeed very nice! But what I meant is that I often see people taking this map for granted as in "this what this spot gonna be, or how it's bordered" but not even the Kallioita needs to be right and can be named totally something else in a different fashion or even split into different differently bordered zones.

Absolutely. If you look back in time (which you can on the image page of the map on the wiki) you can see earlier iterations where there was no Yondershire, no Cardolan and no Swanfleet, so the same will be true for future regions. The map is more of a "what if"-category. Even though "Umbar" is what is announced, we might in reality get two regions named "Cape of Caldûr" and "Pelladurian Coast" which together include the City of Corsairs, for instance. Only SSG has the knowledge of what the region names will actually be, and they are not sharing that yet.

[TesalionLortus]

The area he highlighted is nearly twice as large as Swanfleet and Cardolan combined, and those really got released at that size due to those areas/content being very spread out. I would expect Umbar to be more content dense owing to it being a large fort city with some serious ship building industry.

Well, I didn't make that comparison yet with any of the Google maps nor even in my head, so yeah, I agree their highlighted area doesn't exactly need to be perfectly accurate and can turn out somehow smaller, or maybe won't directly connect to Gondor borders yet. But I think, being able to create and sculpt larger lands more effectively now, that they can have a port city that's more condensed + less condensed areas around it too.

[aleczander]

@Deriaph and others
Does it bother you that we have a region named Cardolan, but no such equivalent for Rhudaur or Arthedain? I see you have Rhudaur as a placeholder (although the Trollshaws is a big chunk of former Rhudaur), but no such hope exist for Arthedain since the landmass is already there and names are taken by Breeland, Northdowns, Evendim etc. It strangely bothers me to an excessive degree.

[Deriaph]

@Deriaph and others
Does it bother you that we have a region named Cardolan, but no such equivalent for Rhudaur or Arthedain? I see you have Rhudaur as a placeholder (although the Trollshaws is a big chunk of former Rhudaur), but no such hope exist for Arthedain since the landmass is already there and names are taken by Breeland, Northdowns, Evendim etc. It strangely bothers me to an excessive degree.

I had the same thought actually - with Cardolan released, and space for a potential Rhudaur (Scenario even named it as such), it would be a nice symmetry to be able to have an Arthedain as well.

There IS actually some space that could fit the bill - the area north of Wildwood, southwest of Fornost and northeast of the Barandalf in Evendim - there's a high plateau that is not accessible in the game and is located right in the heart of former Athedain. In addition, there is a big unused area just north of there, between Fornost, Evendim and Forochel. Those areas put together have a nice chunk of land that could be called Arthedain. It could even connect North Downs with Forochel more directly, perhaps describing the secret flight route of Arevui as he tried to escape the grip of Angmar through back routes in the mountains.

[miriadel]

Arthedain could be a future "Tales of Yore" with Annuminas still a shiny, undamaged, unsunken city

[TesalionLortus]

There IS actually some space that could fit the bill - the area north of Wildwood, southwest of Fornost and northeast of the Barandalf in Evendim - there's a high plateau that is not accessible in the game and is located right in the heart of former Athedain. In addition, there is a big unused area just north of there, between Fornost, Evendim and Forochel. Those areas put together have a nice chunk of land that could be called Arthedain. It could even connect North Downs with Forochel more directly, perhaps describing the secret flight route of Arevui as he tried to escape the grip of Angmar through back routes in the mountains.

Or they can just do what me and Phantion suggested, which would potentially include what you described but also the entire Northern new "high noble" Arthedain section of North Downs, with an additional "higher, kingly" section added to Fornost as a new dungeon potentially. I doubt they're going to have "split" areas named the same, so I would hope for North rather than that section behind Wildwoods (since North allows to solve certain visual inconsistencies, Wildwood doesn't really)

[Phantion]

Our goal is always to make the most out of the space we already have. Its more efficient, gives us fewer files we have to manage, and gives the players less they have to worry about themselves. But... sometimes we have to make a new region - and when we do its for an intentional good reason. If a new addition to landscape can be introduced in a safe and sane way to an existing region, we always prefer that over creating a new region for it.

Thanks, Scenario! I get it now . . . and I absolutely agree. It's so much better. I still can't believe Gundabad, Moria, and Helm's Deep, and Erebor, and Jarnfast are all in the same "region." It's fantastic!

In that case, I'd say that . . . having Rhun as part of the Rhovanion map would probably make the most sense. Could use some impassable reeds around the Dead Marshes part of it near the bottom or other rock formations. The Lang Rhuven gate would be the "portal" from Mordor to Rhun. Most of what constitutes "Rhun" - and the areas between it and the Anduin - would connect to the Wold, Great River, Southern Mirkwood, Middle Mirkwood / Narrows / East Bight, Fields of Celduin and Strongholds of the North, and the Iron-Fold: a ton of territory all around. So yeah, I think that would make the most sense.

I am curious RE- Umbar - and I'm absolutely looking forward to it! I'm curious: will it be on "Region 3 Gondor" or "Region 4 Mordor"? I'm curious to learn which zone would make the most sense. I definitely think it should be part of an existing region.

I do have another important thought. I LOVE CardoSwan and how expansive it feels. I don't love how the Iron-Fold was compressed because players might find it "boring." In many ways, Ruddymead is what the Iron-fold should have been

So, please do not cut corners in Harad's deserts. Guild Wars 2 certainly didn't with its expansive desert region of the Crystal Desert. It should feel like a challenging journey to get across it - and a lot of it is going to depend on how Umbar is designed along its coasts coordinates-wise. I'd also greatly recommend having Umbar itself as another "CardoSwan" level of ambition! It's definitely worth it!

If, someday in-game, I'm going to follow the route of a Mumakil from where it's born and raised to Pelennor Fields, I want to feel like I'm truly going "very far from home."

I also greatly hope you'll consider someway to introduce some new biomes, especially for Umbar. Perhaps a more reddish, more detailed sand or something? It should feel . . . like desert sand versus the more bland, white sand of the Barandalf, I'm thinking. And the more grains of sand . . . we can see in the texture, the more realistic it'll feel. And also . . . maybe some effects like sand-gusts, like those dust devils you've got in the Wastes, things like that . . . it could all go a very long way!

After those amazing cliffs in Swanfleet, I have full confidence this will be an amazing landscape year for LOTRO- and I'm very looking forward to the ride Thanks, Scenario

Cheers!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Guild Wars 2 certainly didn't with its expansive desert region of the Crystal Desert.

As a big GW2 fan, the Crystal Desert worked in GW2 because the same expansion that introduced it also introduced what is probably the single best mount system in any MMO. Said mount system being designed specifically let make it very quick, and easy to get around the very large expanses of.... not a whole lot, a desert biome constitutes.

Even then, there was tons of complaints from the playerbase about the Crystal Desert being too big, too empty, and generally not a whole lot of fun to traverse, since Path of Fire came out.

[Phantion]

As a big GW2 fan, the Crystal Desert worked in GW2 because the same expansion that introduced it also introduced what is probably the single best mount system in any MMO. Said mount system being designed specifically let make it very quick, and easy to get around the very large expanses of.... not a whole lot, a desert biome constitutes.

Even then, there was tons of complaints from the playerbase about the Crystal Desert being too big, too empty, and generally not a whole lot of fun to traverse, since Path of Fire came out.

Hey, I hear you there!

At the same time, for example, if they hypothetically cut things down because some folk don't want to use stable-masters or (*for Umbar's coast, potentially dock-master's) still . . . would feel kind of . . . disingenuous for the region. Will I get annoyed at too much desert? Yes. Do I want them to do the zone justice, even if I get a lil' annoyed at times about it? Yes! I enjoy GW2 also - especially its underwater system. It's the only MMO I can go "sharking" in hahahaha And yes, at times, I get annoyed crossing Crystal Desert in GW2; but when I'm really "in the zone," oh do I love it!

I think they can vary up the biomes somewhat. For example, there could be oases in the desert; those armies had to have some water sources to march up to Ithilien and Pelennor. Some parts can be more mountainous and hilly / rocky. Some can have streams or lakes Tolkien never noted on the map but that could still exist (*because it's just a blank space Tolkien never filled-in). I'd also point out that our warsteeds are considerably faster than GW2's raptors; they may not be able to leap or jump a chasm- but on a light war steed, you can coast along fairly quickly in LOTRO (*lag's a problem as always, and yes, I want them to fix it).

I'm still always amazed it only takes me 5-7 minutes on a light war steed with "rush" activated to head from East Wall to Dunland in LOTRO.

But yeah. I always notice the difference when I jump on a GW2 raptor and find myself missing my warsteed, LOL! The GW2 raptor trots; the LOTRO warsteed glides at a steady gallop. I do enjoy GW2's other mounts - especially the jackal - but that's another story

This is Middle-earth's Tatooine. Umbar's on the fringe of it. The jungles are due south of it. Umbar's our first entry into that world. Would I want "Star Wars" Tatooine, in say, SWTOR, to feel like Naboo or Alderaan (*lusher, temperate planets)? No. A desert is a desert - no matter how much the player wishes for water and sees mirages It's for the same reason I'm glad they didn't cut down Moria too much or make it feel like an average cave; I want to feel relief that I've finally reached an oasis for the same reason I feel relief when I pop out in Nanduhirion and Lothlorien after a long time in the dark

Also, for the record: I often use the stable to get between Herne, Lhan Garan, etc. But when I want to really soak-in Ruddymead . . . I'm always glad to have that option! I tend to err on the side of: "give players convenient ways to by-pass vast distances but develop the vast distances so those who love to "soak them in" can really relish and enjoy them! That means having more encampments, more stable-masters, more milestones, and versus - say - Gorgoroth, where you only had a token few and ugh . . .

---

*And Scenario should know that I loved exploring every nook and cranny of Swanfleet and Cardolan both; love it, love it, love it! It's always fun to head down to the Stoor Vales and feel leagues upon leagues from Eregion as it should - and vice versa when I visit Eregion! Same goes for every vast space in Yondershire!

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

I agree with Phantion 100% - if they're already jumping into places such as Umbar, I want it to feel like I've travelled VERY far away from home and like I still haven't explored even a sizeable chunk of it. No cutting corners and taking into account lazy players. The impressive, immersive land design of expansive South comes first! ESPECIALLY THAT THEY'RE DOING IT THEY'RE THINKING OF BOATS so I very much hope they'll be there for the expansion and they'll actually take advantage of this feature in a land design/questing - from hidden coves to seaside caves to lone islands, maybe archipelagos sorta thing, no teleports, or at least not being forced to use them! - and all of such amazing landscape opportunities and new form of travel opening up all sorts of new pathways on water, well, they NEED some space, seriously. So you gotta spread our some things more and make it feel like a real real piece of a journey, along the coast with its features, on water around rocks and cliffs into hidden spots, into the rivers, the normal inland landmass of course that needs to feel like we've travelled somewhere far enough, and the entire exotic bay around Umbar itself of course. I mean, if they're being ambitious, this is clearly what I want to see! The mention of boats made me jump from skeptical/mixed feelings/not sure to "even if they screw it up somehow narratively or mess with canon, DANG BOAAAAAATS YEAH" ... and that one wasn't even in the letter, not to mention only like some months ago (?) Sev was saying things like don't imagine we'll ever do that, like wow, things change fast when they really wanna do something, almost kicked me out of my chair! : DDD

Also, this makes me wonder... would this be possible that they just copy-paste all of Western/Eastern Gondor onto Mordor map? To get that ocean/bay? Or, since Mordor map is seemingly too close to map edges towards the South, that's not possible? So they gotta do it on Gondor map? But that's a bit weird since that map has MT under siege? But starting on a new map from scratch...? Especially with boats incoming, meaning it'll just all be a lone landmass for a lone time, all of the upcoming additions? Man, I'm really confused. If we're getting these boats, this would be amazing if we could like... swim across the Anduin, enter the bay and just take a turn towards any of the Harad shores in our boats... I mean, I know, silly, since the boats don't sail into high seas, but if that's feasible then WHY NOT? Or at the very least sail along the shore, either way, idk. Seems like the only solution would be if they added South Gondor/Umbar/other of these lands on the Mordor map but in order to do that they would need to move EVERYTHING that's there into different coordinates North, to make space South. And then, at least in chunks, bit by bit, make a copy of Dawnless Day parts of Gondor and attach them to what's there on Mordor map. So, one day, we could have the entire a small continous chunk of Anduin that enters the Bay and then we can just like... swim and row, either South or West into Gondor, near shore or a bit further into sea, maybe even directly from around Dol Amroth in a straight line towards Umbar, WOW, IMAGINE THAT. There wouldn't be much content at seas of course but it's still wondrous for views of all these shores from the sea, I would kill for this!

I mean, if clunky steed/distance is a problem, rather than cut corners... just fix that. Give players more speed. Make a new faster steed but not as a warsteed, as the regular one, which is perfectly fine and working properly (is just too slow). Then, once you start expanding into actual desert regions or expanses of Rhun in a different expansion focused around Harad/Rhun - which screams like it needs some mounted enemies anyway, since both Haradrim and Easterlings managed to provide numerous cavalrymen for the battle, which means they use horses, unlike orcs - maybe then you can fix warsteeds too, as in how it works and how it moves. But until then... a new faster type of regular steed will do! And we can have more of Cardolan approach, with content spread out, rather than tightly condensed in a smaller space

[auximenes]

The first city we get to in Umbar will be Korthos Village, where we'll be forced to save our characters and transfer them to DDO. This is the big announcement they've been teasing us with.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

This is Middle-earth's Tatooine. Umbar's on the fringe of it. The jungles are due south of it.

Not necessarily. Umbar has to be pretty close to an extensive amount of trees if they're able to field, and maintain, such a large naval fleet over such a long period of time. Especially after Aragorn burned a huge chunk of it a few decades ago. I wouldn't be surprised if SSG has the jungles of Harad come up along the coast, and into the area around Umbar, as a lore bit to explain where they keep all their lumber from.

Don't forget, the Numenorians established Lond Daer as port to exploit Eriador's then massive forests. Once that started to dry up they moved further south and founded Pelargir, and Umbar to keep at it. And Umbar has been around since before SA 2280, which was over 4,000 years ago.

[Phantion]

Not necessarily. Umbar has to be pretty close to an extensive amount of trees if they're able to field, and maintain, such a large naval fleet over such a long period of time. Especially after Aragorn burned a huge chunk of it a few decades ago. I wouldn't be surprised if SSG has the jungles of Harad come up along the coast, and into the area around Umbar, as a lore bit to explain where they keep all their lumber from.

Don't forget, the Numenorians established Lond Daer as port to exploit Eriador's then massive forests. Once that started to dry up they moved further south and founded Pelargir, and Umbar to keep at it. And Umbar has been around since before SA 2280, which was over 4,000 years ago.

Yes- that's true! Yet consider the biomes. The Barbary pirates / historical Corsairs operated off North Africa / western North Africa. Yes, they had timber for their ships, and they also dwelt on the northern fringe of the Sahara. This is where the word "Corsair" appears in history, and they actually harried quite a bit of ships closer to England and Iceland. So I can see where Tolkien may have been a bit inspired to borrow the name. So you had these two very different biomes coming together at that spot; considering the downscaled nature of the game, I'd expect to see at least the beginnings of some desert inland from Umbar and a bit further from the coast, depending on how far inland they go with it.

Another analogy is the Nile Delta. Cleopatra had an Egyptian fleet of her own that joined forces with Marc Antony's Roman fleet at Actium. The delta is a more fertile landscape that is still, nonetheless, surrounded by desert, and when the Nile heads south of the delta, the desert closes-in around it quite a bit. So . . . we're basically speaking of a southern Mediterranean climate spliced with a desert at its fringes. It's still . . . quite different versus the kind of terrain we find in West and Central Gondor. I do hope you're right, and we get some jungles closer to the coastline. But that might end up being like . . . Taur Druadan or North Ithilien . . . the further east you go from the actual Haven of the Corsairs, the more barren the land should look in my opinion. Umbar also doesn't have a clear river flowing through it, which means it may well resemble Tunisia a bit more. Carthage had its fleet as Rome's chief adversary in the mid years of the Republic. Gondor is far more temperate by comparison and tends to resemble something like the Veneto in Northern Italy; the further you head north from Venice, closer you get toward the Alps, the more temperate the landscape gets. Tolkien even likened Venice to "Gondor at it's glory" with perhaps Pelargir in mind.

Cheers!

[provamail10]

At last, Gondor updates! It's really great! Scenario didn't want to answer about adding new zones to it, but it is likely at least we'll end up getting the Southguard and Harondor, because probably the devs won't leave Umbar isolated in the map. My wish would be fulfilled by filling the gaps in the existing zones and adding the landmass west of Belfalas in order to be able to play around the whole kingdom. And probably all of us are very curious about the bouts. How great it would be to follow the coastal line from Belfalas to Umbar in bout!


On the other hand, I think Tolkien linked the coordinates of Venice to Minas Tirith.

[gildhur]

Don't forget that they also announced the Post-war Gondor region(s) that will likely connect to Umbar. The easiest way would be to redo the old Eastern Gondor as the new sunlit portion with a bit of Southguard added onto it this spring, then leave the rest for the expansion. On this map, they would have to do something with Harondor too, of course. Perhaps it'll be included with the xpac. They did say the word for the year was "ambitious." They don't have to be as big as this map shows them, of course.

[TesalionLortus]

It's all great speculating about what they're going to do with Gondor but Sev comments from the stream were a bit confusing, where specifically answered expect us heading South. So I'm not even truly sure whether they really meant the old "no longer Dawnless" Gondor in that letter or what they meant by it was just new additions of Gondor like the missing After South Ithilien and Harondor. Would be cool if they could give us a clue...

I also really wish to know on what map this new Gondor and Umbar are going to be... because unless we have any idea about that then it's all pointless wild guesses. Technically, it's not like all of Middle-earth or its waters were ever continuously connected, you still gotta take that portal next to Rauros. Sure, understandable. But there is certainly something MEGA appealing (especially with these boats) if they managed to have all of the sea shores continuously connected between Gondor (at least the entire Bay of Belfalas) and Harondor/Umbar. But that's troublesome with the map layers and how split the Gondors are. If they managed to have one Gondor around Belfalas at least, allowed further into the sea for views and move between Gondor parts, so to Harondor too. But maybe then, since they don't have space on that map maybe, then have Umbar/South on separate map and make a big badass teleport line from the shores of Souther Harondor far into the sea, though I'm not sure if something like that would be feasible?

[Phantion]

It's all great speculating about what they're going to do with Gondor but Sev comments from the stream were a bit confusing, where specifically answered expect us heading South. So I'm not even truly sure whether they really meant the old "no longer Dawnless" Gondor in that letter or what they meant by it was just new additions of Gondor like the missing After South Ithilien and Harondor. Would be cool if they could give us a clue...

I also really wish to know on what map this new Gondor and Umbar are going to be... because unless we have any idea about that then it's all pointless wild guesses. Technically, it's not like all of Middle-earth or its waters were ever continuously connected, you still gotta take that portal next to Rauros. Sure, understandable. But there is certainly something MEGA appealing (especially with these boats) if they managed to have all of the sea shores continuously connected between Gondor (at least the entire Bay of Belfalas) and Harondor/Umbar. But that's troublesome with the map layers and how split the Gondors are. If they managed to have one Gondor around Belfalas at least, allowed further into the sea for views and move between Gondor parts, so to Harondor too. But maybe then, since they don't have space on that map maybe, then have Umbar/South on separate map and make a big badass teleport line from the shores of Souther Harondor far into the sea, though I'm not sure if something like that would be feasible?

I haven't heard the livestreams yet from Scenario or Sev but intend to as soon as I get a chance irl.

As we move into the spring and summer months, our focus will shift to the growing threat posed by the enemies soon to be unleashed in our next major expansion. Gondor, now experiencing relative peace, needs assistance in rebuilding and assessing strange goings on. We will be introducing a new version of Gondor, no longer dawnless and harried by enemies on all sides. Yet still, threats linger that must be opposed. From a game systems side, we will continue to work on targeted class updates, crafting changes, monster play updates, and further adjustments to combat statistics as we move forward to the expansion, new festival rewards for Midsummer, and much more.

The language here, at least, really implies the previous Dawnless Day regions - and probably Central and East Gondor since West Gondor really wasn't in that category. Also, notice that Orion says "rebuilding" - meaning . . . zones we've already visited when they were getting ruined. Harondor was always in ruins in the late TA timeline - and I could see us heading that way too, maybe even at the same time. I mean, look at how huge CardoSwan is! I think they could pull off quite a lot. I could really see them having clicky horses at After-Battle Ringlo Vale and near the Central Gondor side of the Cape of Belfalas to get back on "Region 3 Gondor" and the homestead. We might end up with a "split Gondor" for that reason - and, to be fair, you'd have to "portal" into a homestead neighborhood to keep following Gondor's coast anyway.

When you really think long and hard about it, it makes sense - because the area on the map in this thread labeled "Southguard" and northern "Harondor" include the River Poros and the lands immediately south of Pelargir and southeast of Dor-en-Ernil. The land south of South Ithilien really juts westward and so, by pure necessity, you'd really - have - to go in that direction and have an After Battle Central Gondor to keep things flowing relatively seamlessly. The only thing is you'd have to port to get from West Gondor to After-Battle Ringlo Vale, but that's not the biggest deal in the world; that's a relatively narrow pass from Lamedon anyway.

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Maybe you're right and that's how they've done it. But hmm, I really wonder. And remember, what MiniExpBounder said - that they don't supposedly have much space South on the After-Mordor map, because that's quite close to the edge, so certainly not enough to fit Umbar/parts of Harad, unless they're like very very small. So I can really see now what Scenario meant by this huge debacle that luckily he didn't need to take part in and I wonder how they ultimately solved it

The only thing is you'd have to port to get from West Gondor to After-Battle Ringlo Vale, but that's not the biggest deal in the world; that's a relatively narrow pass from Lamedon anyway.

On land anyway... but... boats... this changes everything, and no matter how they solve it, I really really want to at least have a decent portal or an outright portal wall on the sea to transition to these other maps in somehow natural, unconstrained way.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Don't forget that they also announced the Post-war Gondor region(s) that will likely connect to Umbar. The easiest way would be to redo the old Eastern Gondor as the new sunlit portion with a bit of Southguard added onto it this spring, then leave the rest for the expansion. On this map, they would have to do something with Harondor too, of course. Perhaps it'll be included with the xpac. They did say the word for the year was "ambitious." They don't have to be as big as this map shows them, of course.

Harondor itself is as large as Cardolan and Swanfleet. And, that only got put out due to how empty both those areas were in lore, allowing them to make them kinda empty. Harondor itself is pretty empty, but thats still, at best, an update as its own. Id be very surprised if Umbar starts off directly connected to Gondor. Unless the Gondor update is just Southguard/Harondor. But that doesn't really seem to jive with the dev's comments since those areas were largely not considered part of Gondor by the time of the war anyways.

Yes- that's true! Yet consider the biomes. The Barbary pirates / historical Corsairs operated off North Africa / western North Africa. Yes, they had timber for their ships, and they also dwelt on the northern fringe of the Sahara. This is where the word "Corsair" appears in history, and they actually harried quite a bit of ships closer to England and Iceland. So I can see where Tolkien may have been a bit inspired to borrow the name. So you had these two very different biomes coming together at that spot; considering the downscaled nature of the game, I'd expect to see at least the beginnings of some desert inland from Umbar and a bit further from the coast, depending on how far inland they go with it.

Beginnings of desert sure. but its not like all, or likely most, of the area directly around Umbar is desert. Which is what I was saying.

[TesalionLortus]

Since we can hardly figure out anything about Gondor so far, back to the thread... I made this screenshot which I think it nicely illustrates why we need that Forochel/Angmar gap at some point..



I mean, when you can't look around and it's just static, doesn't look as bad, but it still pretty apparent... Like, gotta be the only such clear-cut border wall left in the game, no? The awkward flat with trees on top certainly gives it away



Revisiting the Western portion of Ram Duath certainly made me realize what an interesting gap this would be. The canyons of Ram Duath are certainly one of a kind place in the game so extending them, connecting to Western Angmar and leaking that landscape into Forochel would be very interesting land design to witness. That, and maybe even give us an additional section of North Downs/Fornost, who knows.

@Scenario, btw, I think that grey rock on the left or right shouldn't be that color? But they're all over that place

[seekingerin]

So we have some answers now about the content we're getting in 2023, but a whole lot of new questions as well. In broad strokes, we're getting what I've been anticipating the last couple of months: a post-war version of Gondor (the revisiting familiar territory bit) and some type of Umbar/Harad-related expansion in the fall (the new lands, saltwater bit). The big surprise for me is the Carn Dum instance cluster; I definitely didn't see that coming!

Some questions that come to my mind:

* How many landscape updates are we getting this year? I feel like this one has been answered, but there seems to be some confusion and debate about this point. My understanding is that we're getting two major landscape updates: a post-war version of Gondor in the spring and a Harad/Umbar expansion in the fall, possibly along with some minor updates to coincide with the instance cluster in the winter and the further adventures in the summer. In that sense, 2023 should be a pretty typical year.

* How does the Carn Dum instance cluster relate to the existing Carn Dum instances and the landscape version of Carn Dum? I'm personally quite happy about the new instance cluster; as a raider who's been playing since LOTRO's first year, I have a great deal of nostalgia for the Angmar instances of old and I'm happy to get to revisit them in a sense. It sounds like the new instances are meant to be a post-SoA, post-War of the Ring version of Angmar, roughly coinciding with the current endgame timeline and the status quo we've seen hinted at in Elderslade and Gundabad. It sounds like we won't be getting any new landscape with these new instances, and the original instances will be untouched. I think there are two ways they could handle this: we could get an expanded version of Carn Dum that fits neatly alongside the existing landscape and instance versions of Carn Dum, perhaps with the new areas visible in the distance; or we could get a completely reworked version of Carn Dum that doesn't fit with the original version of Carn Dum, similar to how the landscape version of Dale and Erebor are quite different from the Dale and Erebor that we get in the Road to Erebor instances. Personally, I'm hoping for the former, because it always bothers me a little when instances don't align with each other and with the landscape.

* What is the nature of post-war Gondor? Will it include new landscape or will it just be a revised version of the existing landscape? I keep thinking about all the devs' talk about extensive and ambitious landscape work in 2023. Scenario mentioned that in one of his videos, and Orion mentioned that again in his letter. I think I've seen it in a couple of dev posts since the letter was released, too. Creating a post-war Gondor seems like an interesting task as far as landscape work goes. I assume they can start from a copy of the existing landscape, but I don't think it's as simple as adjusting the lighting and the day-night cycle, or even changing a few NPCs. Landscape that looked good under the Dawnless Day will not necessarily look good in the sunlight; notably, colors might have to be adjusted to make everything look right. We may see either new damage from the war or old damage repaired, too. Landscape, props, and monster camps will no doubt have to be adjusted as well. On the one hand, they have a head start on all these areas; on the other hand, it's potentially a vast area to have to rework. I'm curious to see how far post-war Gondor extends. I imagine we'll get South Ithilien, since it's an important landscape link to Harad and Umbar. I think there's a decent chance we'll get West, Central, and East Gondor, since they link us to Anfalas if we eventually go there. Will we get Old Anorien and Far Anorien? It would be nice to see these areas in peace and daylight, but they seem like the most optional areas. And what about new areas of Gondor? Will we get Anfalas? Will we get Harondor? Will we get Tolfalas? Will we get some of the mountain passes that people have requested recently in this thread? Will we get to meet the White Mountain dwarves? Might we get some new points of interest to fill in some of the less developed areas of Gondor, similar to what SSG did with Azanulbizar? And of course, there's the question of what kind of quests, missions, and instances might come along with post-war Gondor. There's a lot we still don't know.

* Will we be jumping straight to Umbar via some fast travel boat, or will we get the landscape between Umbar and Gondor? And if we get the connecting landscape, will it come before Umbar or after? It's unclear from Orion's letter whether we would be portalling straight to Umbar in the fall or if the fall will just give us an expansion that begins our journey toward Umbar, and from the posts I've seen, it seems like others are unclear about this point as well. I think it would be an odd choice, after a year spent filling in gaps in the landscape, to jump us straight to Umbar without giving us the connecting landscape. For the first time in the game's history, we have a fully contiguous map, so why break it up again? I'm a big fan of LOTRO's landscape contiguity, so I definitely have a preference here.

* Why mention "new biomes" as a feature in Orion's letter? I'm sure Harad and Umbar will require new biomes, but it seems like an odd way of phrasing it. "New biomes" sounds less exciting than "new landscape." Though I suppose one of the exciting things about Harad is that the landscape is likely to be a much bigger departure from the existing biomes than any other previous landscape update has been, so maybe it makes sense to underscore that point.

An interesting point: dedicating the spring update to a new version of existing landscape probably gives the artists some extra time to develop new art assets for our southward journey, which seems like a good thing. I know that's something we've discussed in this thread. Harad will likely require a large number of new art assets, so the extra time is likely to SSG's, and ultimately our, benefit.

I look forward to learning more about the upcoming updates in the months to come!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Since we can hardly figure out anything about Gondor so far, back to the thread... I made this screenshot which I think it nicely illustrates why we need that Forochel/Angmar gap at some point..

I mean, when you can't look around and it's just static, doesn't look as bad, but it still pretty apparent... Like, gotta be the only such clear-cut border wall left in the game, no? The awkward flat with trees on top certainly gives it away

Revisiting the Western portion of Ram Duath certainly made me realize what an interesting gap this would be. The canyons of Ram Duath are certainly one of a kind place in the game so extending them, connecting to Western Angmar and leaking that landscape into Forochel would be very interesting land design to witness. That, and maybe even give us an additional section of North Downs/Fornost, who knows.

I know Senario made a comment in his last stream where he was talking about possible gap filling maps being added down the line, and he mentioned they had the like 1-45/50 level range extended, but there was room for like 45-60 to be expanded as well, or something like that.

Adding in the area between Forochel and Anmgar would be a good spot for a zone like that.

[TesalionLortus]

Adding in the area between Forochel and Anmgar would be a good spot for a zone like that.

I would rather have that one on cap, though. Plus, if they're smart, they may have the last last remnants of the Angmarim scattered after this final fall of Carn Dum, which means they could travel into unfortified Western reaches of Angmar, parts of Forochel, wastes of Forodwaith, a true exile this time, which could include some of these characters/plot threads they hinted at earlier in Gundabad, rather than just... kill them all off in succession in one instance cluster. If that's how it goes and some of them remain in true exile, maybe with crazy ideas to dig into Forodwaith or whatever, then I'm okay with this "just instance cluster" solution. Which would mostly focus around the boss women from Carn Dum and their plans for the Stone, maybe. The other reason why it would be smart is that having some Angmarim still alive might be a nice idea regarding anything involving Throkhar and the Nameless in general, if Throkhar is to be seen influencing things in more places than one - recently even the Guryzul pale in comparison with what the crazy Angmarim are capable of. That Master in the Muck? (... or literally any of the sh*t they pulled out in Gundabad). These are really ideal servants for Nameless and the Throkhar, so we could have some crazies maybe advancing some of their plans (in spoken words), at least in these parts of Middle-earth, so we don't end up again with the Shadowed King situation (which I liked as a setup and one-off thing, but yeah, the Nameless in general aren't like... a talkative, comprehensible, perfectly humanized bunch, they're not supposed to be)

[TesalionLortus]

we could get an expanded version of Carn Dum that fits neatly alongside the existing landscape and instance versions of Carn Dum, perhaps with the new areas visible in the distance; or we could get a completely reworked version of Carn Dum that doesn't fit with the original version of Carn Dum, similar to how the landscape version of Dale and Erebor are quite different from the Dale and Erebor that we get in the Road to Erebor instances. Personally, I'm hoping for the former, because it always bothers me a little when instances don't align with each other and with the landscape.

Please no, I don't want these to be a part of landscape because, frankly, they don't convey the same Carn Dum feel, like the old good Carn Dum, which doesn't really have anything wrong in it. Scenario said it's essentially his Carn Dum "reimagined in present day" - which unnecessarily creates inconsistencies, yeah, exactly like with Erebor/Dale, except these were in reverse, thus more justified - and that it doesn't changes anything in old landscape of Angmar and Carn Dum, thankfully. And even without it being a part of landscape, I will still have my grudges with it, seeing how it uses archways/gateways from Dol Guldur or its massive black towers, which is just... not good, doesn't fit at all. The architecture of old Carn Dum set is very different, clearly with the concept that these were ruined walls and towers (like some of these ruined towers visible in the early portions of Angmar, in the South) that were then somewhat repaired and covered with all these iron elements and additional iron sections. Adding Black Guldur pieces not to mention massive black Dol Guldur tower is a complete mismatch and goes against everything that these Angmar set represents. It doesn't look good. I much prefer the design of the old Carn Dum with its unique assets and takes on gateways that worked.

Granted, I do understand that new instances needed different pathways in order to feel different, okay, but overall not such a great reimagination IMO, if we end up with mismatching pieces and concepts behind them. This gotta be right there as LOTRO's greatest world design sin, next to the overuse of the Gondorian winged heads everywhere, especially in Dol Amroth. *Or perhaps even worse, since at least these wings match one another?* Scenario does amazing landscape work (I mean, Cardolan? Amazing!) but I feel like in trying to "recreate things with modern methods" (but lacking assets for it) he's just gone a bit nuts, like trying to create a pyramid but what you're using for it are archways and columns rather than bricks. He would be just better off suffering some of these older assets (and how more difficult they were to work with?) or outright copying some of these gateways over from old instances, if in lack of time, and thus ending up with more consistent, pleasant result. Well, at the very least, they should retexture these towers to be the right color. Although I would rather see them gone, especially the biggest one, it's such a eyesore, as if it was dropped from the sky in minecraft, and ups, landed in Carn Dum, sorry!