Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Arnand_the_Fox]

In term of numbers, it's less when Aragorn army attack Mordor. And he already beat Umbar once with small force

Aragorn's campaigns out east and south were in the 4th age, which we aren't into yet. Aragorn should be way too buys trying to rebuild Gondor right now to try a major military action like attacking Umbar.

[Phantion]

Aragorn's campaigns out east and south were in the 4th age, which we aren't into yet. Aragorn should be way too buys trying to rebuild Gondor right now to try a major military action like attacking Umbar.

Yes, but he actually *could* take Umbar sooner, I'd argue. He doesn't have a Gondorian fleet. The Corsairs smashed Gondor's fleet. It's all the broken ships in Pelargir and off the coast of Linhir.

But Aragorn does have a Corsair fleet and the Night Jewel. So, disguise some Gondorian soldiers as Corsairs, put them on the ships with able commanders, perhaps led by the Lord of Lamedon and Prince Imrahil with the Swan-Knights, get them welcomed back home as if victorious in the name of Sauron, have them land at the Havens, and SURPRISE!!!! They have the opportunity to pull a Trojan Horse with minimal forces and claim Umbar for Gondor in one fell swoop with Umbar having spent the majority of its ships and forces in Sauron's service.

It could literally be an instance that turns the Corsair Haven into a hub - or part of it, at least. Fairly easily - while the rest of Gondor rebuilds. Umbar's in a weakened position; Aragorn, knowing how even his attack as Thorongil didn't stop Umbar from sending a fleet to service Sauron, would know from the long history of strife between Gondor and Umbar that - - - now - - -, right now, is the time to put an end to their threat forever.

Frankly, I think if Aragorn didn't do something like this, it would make him look rather dumb imho, and I want a smart King Elessar! West Gondor didn't suffer as badly from the Corsairs either, compared to Central Gondor, so Imrahil and the Swan-Knights could probably do this job - with the aid of avid adventurers who also fought a Balrog, Hrimil, etc. etc. etc.

I'd agree with you if we were talking about an Umbar at its strongest armed with a fleet of a thousand ships. But we're speaking of Umbar at arguably the weakest point in its history since the great wave drowned Numenor and since King Umbardacil conquered it for Gondor.

Why do I feel like me and Phantion are the only ones (from those who commented on it anyway) who actually get some nuances and can discuss them in a reasonable manner, not just come up with examples that completely don't match the situation being discussed.

I'm sorry, but I do need to say something here about this . . . I do not approve of anyone using my name to insult other players, intentionally or unintentionally, no matter the substance of discussion. I find this use of my name quite unreasonable and would ask you to cease and desist doing so in this manner in the future. I get you didn't intend it that way, but from the majority of the thread's responses to it, the I's have it. Let's just keep things focused on discussions in the future. And by the way, I still disagree with you RE- CD and the other regions. I can stand on and help defend Helm's Deep - which is quite large in scale and functional, as are the front walls of Minas Tirith. CD still looks like too much of a joke; the Witch-King held out against Arnor for over 600 years - and I need visual evidence of that, even if ruined fortifications. Not towers you could barely fit action figures in. I did say I agreed with you aesthetically and that CD still needs that grey-towered look, like they did in Car Bronach. Thank you.

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Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

It's two months after, many of the Haradrim already retreated, the word of Pelennor already got to Harad and Umbar, there is no "Trojan Horse" scenario to be had here, only a more extensive siege to be waged even if they got ahold of the port easily.

I can stand on and help defend Helm's Deep - which is quite large in scale and functional, as are the front walls of Minas Tirith. CD still looks like too much of a joke;

Helm's Deep, Minas Tirith, Dol Guldur, Minas Morgul, Isengard, cities like Osgiliath/Heerondir/some others in Gondor in particular, to a lesser extent Cardolan and fortresses of Mordor - bolder wall sections that you can imagine yourself standing on (or actually stand on...). Sure, but doesn't change the fact many things just aren't scaled that way and that's not a great fault because it's everywhere in the game

Not towers you could barely fit action figures in. I did say I agreed with you aesthetically and that CD still needs that grey-towered look, like they did in Car Bronach. Thank you.

I'm happy we agree esthetically, I just don't get that talk of action figures. Like I said, it's pretty much the same with many smaller/medium-sized towers of Gondor, Arnor and Mordor? Thin towers of Cardolan? Plenty of the same towers in Evendim and other spires in Annuminas? Buildings and gatehouses that would barely fit 6 men but when you enter it's entire chambers? Plenty of these towers at higher levels of MT? Or in Minas Morgul? Spires of Seregost which are the same size or smaller than how most of Carn Dum/Barad Gularan towers are scaled? Real size was never this game's forte, it isn't in most games, and there was always some disbalance, in particular in these greater fortressed of Middle-earth - like they have these bold walls to allow you to walk on them but then the size of the entire thing with most of its towers is not as real-sized as it should have been compared to these walls and instead is compressed to buildings and towers that would barely fit the entire court of the king (unless they're open space towers, that you can walk on, then they are the right, believable size)

Most of Carn Dum wall sections is the boldness of the newer Cardolan wall pieces, pretty much, so no idea how it's not right size. You can't really walk on them, which you don't have to. Also, Malbork is one of the biggest castles and some of it looks like this:







Not kickass walls that you can walk on everywhere, some of these outer walls and sections are more like tight spaces with narrow windows through which you can harass an enemy (the OG Carn Dum clearly utilized this idea, since unlike the "no windows!" issues of Fornost, its many sections actually do have narrow windows like this)

Plus, there is the fact that OG Carn Dum (and by association the original one) weren't exactly one big fortified city (kickass keep at the end, city buildings in the center, everything perfectly walled in the square) but more like interconnected castles nested in this mountainous terrain, guarding passes. You want your passages narrow "regular" sized (rather than kickass archways) for defensibility and most of its time the place was never really under siege, so any of its armies would be gathered and prepared for marching forth in the hills below, South Angmar (just like Sauron had his staging ground in Gorgoroth and Udud, not behind the gates of Durthang or Barad-dur).

the Witch-King held out against Arnor for over 600 years - and I need visual evidence of that, even if ruined fortifications.

I mean... here you go:




That's pretty much a regular sized gate that you would find in most such fortresses (regular sized Arnorian gateways in the game itself are no bigger, perhaps even smaller). You would easily fit a group of 30 or so men above that gate, or more if standing very tightly for melee defense, and then some on the ramparts right, so can effectively harass an enemy as they approach through such a narrow pass, and then easily 5-6 men atop the towers. The OG Carn Dum is full of such hardcore confusing approaches up the slope - believe it or not, city with a street layout or fortress with a clear, walled, subsequent sections isn't the only "believable" way...




You could have even more men on this section and that's even bigger, higher entryway. Plus men on iron towers and before you say these don't look realistic because they're "apparently in random places and not build well", then consider the design concept here..




Bugged secular lightning glow in this image but illustrates the point - the bugged grey walls would be the ruined fortifications you're talking about and the sizes would roughly match what I said about Malbork earlier or even surpass it. All of the iron stuff and towers... would be an attempt to rebuild it, cover up any gaps and imperfections and pieces of walls barely holding together, empower it. Not exactly un-messy and a miracle of architecture, but it wasn't supposed to be and it also gave Angmarim architecture that "nuts" feeling that they always had (plus Iron Crown obsession?). Well, this imperfection gave it character, plain and simple






You can even tell that bridge outright collapsed in the middle of things but they were lucky enough to manage to build some supports for it and save the rest of it. Which wouldn't be unrealistic at all, given that bad guy keeps of Middle-earth may rely more heavily on some WK enchantments to keep them together over extended periods with minimal/low quality renovation efforts and evil men shouldn't really be great builders for their keeps to survive ages - the way Numenoreans/Gondorians would be


Personally works perfectly for me and gives the place its unique character. Technically, if you need visual representation of that, of ruined fortifications, then it probably won't be there in that new cluster because the assets used aren't exactly "ruined" sets, the way ruined Gondorian keeps are. Instead, they're "well kept pieces of kickass walls" sets out of Dol Guldur and maybe some of Mordor too (I'm sure I did saw Mordor industry pieces...).

[Maedol]

Do you think we should expect restoration work on the hill of Emyn Arnen in Ithilien in the near future? All the same, Faramir and Eowyn will be there one day

[miriadel]

I want Legolas bringing the mirkwood elves in Ithilien to rebuild. Yes I know that as of now it won't fit in the timeline but eh, whatever, still want it :P

[TesalionLortus]

If we're going back to MT, I would rather see both Legolas and Gimli there... This is going to be interesting Are they wasted from wine and beer for weeks maybe?

[Hierona]

I know that having visible objects and landmarks to navigate is part of Scenario's world design philosophy but clearly we're not getting them as widespread and huge with this one, no? Cardolan was amazingly huge/open but it wasn't as "calm" if you catch my meaning - despite the size, there was that huge cliffside over there and that kickass tower on the horizon over there, and there yet another huge hill, and another tower, and on and on, always something big on the horizon from any place, never calm. It did fit that ruined kingdom of Arnor through and the geographical approach, which wasn't that of flatlands by any means. But I hope South can be a little bit different and more open than anything we've ever seen before. Make any "navigation" landmarks subtle, merely a distant yet highly specific shape on the horizon, but not outright high elevation or splendorous high ruins or towers. Though there can be some coastal cliffs maybe, here and there, obscuring the view from the sea and you gotta sail around them.

Think this would help a lot indeed. Think they can make the dessert quite big with very view in it to get a sense that you are lost. Maybe add sandstorms occasionally and some oaseses but mostly just sand for miles and miles. And after that when we get closer to Umbar, parts of civilasation are coming back. I feel like there should be like only 3 villages in south Gondor, and after that thick forests where you can't venture through and slowly getting sandy and open.

Would be very cool to really get a different feel. Makes it feel as if you could get lost quite quickly. Just one road with some new monsters like sandseals, or sunslugs, or natural fellbeasts, Ukrash. Would be nice to see something like the sandcreatures from Breath of the Wild for example. Some old keeps along the road, but not further into the dessert.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Think this would help a lot indeed. Think they can make the dessert quite big with very view in it to get a sense that you are lost. Maybe add sandstorms occasionally and some oaseses but mostly just sand for miles and miles.

This makes me wonder... is there a maximum zone size in LOTRO? I know that the larger regions have some limits due to their borders, but do the individual zones within them also have size limits? Depending on how much they can automate the process, they could make a rather expansive desert map for LOTRO if indivudal zones don't have an upper limit so long as they fit within the region borders.

[Scenario]

This makes me wonder... is there a maximum zone size in LOTRO? I know that the larger regions have some limits due to their borders, but do the individual zones within them also have size limits? Depending on how much they can automate the process, they could make a rather expansive desert map for LOTRO if indivudal zones don't have an upper limit so long as they fit within the region borders.

We segment our data in a number of ways. At the top level is the Territory (Eriador/Rhovanion/Gondor/etc) - these have a set dimension and cannot go any bigger than that. We've got Regions (Bree-land, Minas Morgul, Vales of Anduin, etc) - these are more specifically geographic subsections of a territory. Then we've got Areas (Misthallow, Fields of Fornost, Chetwood, etc) - these are more local sections of a Region.

I don't believe we have a specific technical limitation on the size of a Region or Area, outside of the bounds of the Territory they belong to, there may be some data-related limitations in just how big those volumes can be.

Over the years, we've dabbled in areas of various sizes. The original game had areas of fairly small sizes, where as the Gondor era had much larger areas. Personally, I find smaller areas as beneficial to wayfinding in a region. Knowing what subsection of a region you are in can help you better understand where you are by looking at the game world and by looking at a map.

We haven't finalized the specifics of the size of what we are building for Umbar, but the team is excited to play in a new type of environment and to tackle the unique challenges establishing the boundaries a new style of landscape would entail.

[Phantion]

We segment our data in a number of ways. At the top level is the Territory (Eriador/Rhovanion/Gondor/etc) - these have a set dimension and cannot go any bigger than that. We've got Regions (Bree-land, Minas Morgul, Vales of Anduin, etc) - these are more specifically geographic subsections of a territory. Then we've got Areas (Misthallow, Fields of Fornost, Chetwood, etc) - these are more local sections of a Region.

I don't believe we have a specific technical limitation on the size of a Region or Area, outside of the bounds of the Territory they belong to, there may be some data-related limitations in just how big those volumes can be.

Over the years, we've dabbled in areas of various sizes. The original game had areas of fairly small sizes, where as the Gondor era had much larger areas. Personally, I find smaller areas as beneficial to wayfinding in a region. Knowing what subsection of a region you are in can help you better understand where you are by looking at the game world and by looking at a map.

We haven't finalized the specifics of the size of what we are building for Umbar, but the team is excited to play in a new type of environment and to tackle the unique challenges establishing the boundaries a new style of landscape would entail.

Thanks for these details, Scenario! You're awesome!

I hear you on both angles. But if I had to pick between . . . say, "The Angle" and "CardoSwan" - I've enjoyed "CardoSwan" a ton more, though I love the Angle for different reasons! CardoSwan . . . it seems to me as a player . . . did a great job balancing between "smaller areas" - like, say, the Mossward area or the cluster of villages in the Stoor Vales . . . without sacrificing scope / expansiveness!

And that's what I sincerely hope we'll find in Umbar! Something on the "CardoSwan" scale. For example, it could, in theory, extend to the fringe borders of "Haradwaith" more broadly in kind of the same way that Ruddymead and southwestern Swanfleet currently do. I'm really hoping it won't just be the Havens, the gulf, and their immediate surroundings and that . . . it can kind of flow outward around in a radius a bit more like CardoSwan does. I'd be fine with having the sort of "low embankment rock wall" method section-off the deserts of Harad or what-not - while allowing for an expansive view of the terrain as it flows out in all those directions.

In short: Please don't make another "Lone-Lands." "CardoSwan" is better! "Lone-Lands" is cozy, straightforward, and narrower than the Gap of Rohan, and it felt "less lonely" because it just felt like a small stretch of a loosely carved valley flowing eastward. "South Downs" extending the "Lone Lands," to me at least, really made the world start to feel like: "I'm in the midst of Middle-earth" and less like "I'm . . . on this pre-set track in this relatively narrow space." And I really liked how it carved out its natural questing hubs in some cozier areas in a nice, neat balance - like the farm homesteads and the Caranost area and so forth.

---

What are some ideas I'd have for Umbar, what that could look like? Well, we know we have the Haven in a cove-shaped mountain range straddling the inlet from the Bay of Belfalas. So, I'm seeing mountains to the north, northeast, and northwest of the City of the Corsairs. I'm seeing . . . perhaps some mountain passes, playing with those Swanfleet new-styled cliffs, maybe some . . . more traversable landscape - all building upward to some of the most fantastic mountain views of the Sea and the Gulf and the city . . . something new that Gondor really didn't do that much. I could see that being an "over-land" route for supplies coming in from Haradwaith. I can see it also being an ancient route the Gondorians might attempt to use to attack it, due to Umbar's strong naval power, and I could see Umbar getting flanked on both sides by land and sea.

Now then. What else do I see? "Black Numenorean architecture" that probably looks . . . similar to, but hopefully not too identical to the Mordorrim look? I mean, probably some of that, but my guess is that it would also have remnants of Ar-Pharazon's touch to it. Maybe a bit more gold? My guess is that the Black Numenoreans themselves came from Umbar - and that whatever ones ended up in Sauron's service directly in Minas Morgul, Angmar, and Mordor itself came from those strains of survivors. That would make some sense to me.

That then would tell me there is a "higher" and a "lower" culture- and that you have the Corsair pirates themselves at the bottom of the chain, save for their commanders like the Scourge, Heirs of Castamir, etc., and the "Lords of Umbar" at the top- like Mordrambor and company. My guess is that Dulgabeth, Ugrukhor, Karazgar, etc., probably came from there as well (*unless Sauron has some secret Black Numenorean city in Nurn or Lithlad or something). It's possible that they fled, for good reason, when Gondor took Umbar when it did, and it's possible that there are other Black Numenorean hold-outs in unknown places.

I'm also thinking that perhaps a collapsed pillar with a certain broken Vandassar would be a good nod to that SA territory. An ancient port, some ancient, weathered buildings, some newer escarpments less refined built over the older Numenorean glory . . . I can see it. I hope it's as large, in it's own way, as Minas Tirith; Pelargir and Dol Amroth felt too small to me in comparison, and at least, with this, there's some more things to play with as far as scale goes.

Now . . . landscape. It depends on what's possible, I think, and it depends on what the Gondor after-battle update does. If, for example, After-Battle Gondor not only copies older zones without the Dawnless Day but also expands southward into Harondor, then Umbar could potentially meet-up with the Harnen. If not, then . . . "CardoSwan's scope" might be a decent model. I'd enjoy seeing some more of Umbarrim culture - some smaller fishing villages, some adjacent, smaller ports, and probably some encampments of both Corsairs and Haradrim. Perhaps some Mumakil in the Haradrim camps, held in reserve (*and Sauron never got to use them, or if he tried to, they saw those "warning banners" we planted in North Ithilien and turned around). Some more fertile landscape elements - farming, crops, perhaps some hints of Far Harad's jungles, and so forth.

As "The Wastes" kind of gave a preview for what Mordor would feel like, it would be great to see Umbar give like a "preview" of what Harad will feel like, and that circles me back to my first suggestion about the "Cardolan border" effect: to see distant desert, even if we're not able to cross into it quite yet, somewhere beyond the inlet where the Haven of Corsairs is.

I'd also imagine that one could imagine streams or smaller rivers Tolkien never indicated on the map - and perhaps a canal system of sorts running through Umbar proper. It probably had an active source of fresh water as well as direct access to the saltwater inlet and bay.

Anyways, thanks for listening! It's pretty fun to imagine!

Cheers!

P.S. I'd LOVE to see more Eregion and Elven inspired decorations that aren't tied up to a very limited RNG RE- Doom of Caras Gelebren. Is it possible to . . . make barter options available for the current decorations, which could cost a fair number of delving writs, for players to have a way to . . . get some awesome stuff without depending on the RNG for them? RNG is something that just doesn't feel like "earning" or getting rewards for effort. It's honestly just luck- and streaks of running bad luck are seldom fun! Hehehehehe XD

[TesalionLortus]

We haven't finalized the specifics of the size of what we are building for Umbar, but the team is excited to play in a new type of environment and to tackle the unique challenges establishing the boundaries a new style of landscape would entail.

That's great to know! Yeah, there are clearly so many new opportunities here. I just hope you will use these water pathways (with boats in play) for amazing effect and land design!

I agree with Phantion that CardoSwan treatment is amazing and - after all - we do want South and East to feel like they're expansive chunks of entire civilizations of their own, just like the West is one. Size can help with this. Plus you're looking into boats anyway... and you do need size to do cool canals, sailable rivers with some nooks and crannies, not to mention the coasts, with some islands and caves. I bet you guys will be doing lots of environmental research and I haven't done any decent ones to be sure whether that fits... but some kind of archipelago treatment somewhere, like in a smaller bay, or mouth of the river, or near coast, would have been a pretty cool view and use for the boats!

Oh, and yeah, gonna repeat myself now, but I definitely dream of some... flatlands. So tired of mountains and hills everywhere all around on all sides They're like a natural state within LOTRO's game world, would be nice to have some places where you DON'T have a giant hill or a mountain on the horizon wherever you stand. Canonically, there doesn't seem to be any mountains South of Umbar and on its Southern shores so maybe that's a nice spot for that

[miriadel]

We haven't finalized the specifics of the size of what we are building for Umbar, but the team is excited to play in a new type of environment and to tackle the unique challenges establishing the boundaries a new style of landscape would entail.

will there be a desert? doesn't need to be a full blown huge chunk of map, I'd be happy with the edges of a desert, with the first sand dunes that can be climbed. Will there be..... an oasis????? (this is me wishful thinking, I know you probably can't tell us this because spoilers or NDA)

[Arnand_the_Fox]

We segment our data in a number of ways. At the top level is the Territory (Eriador/Rhovanion/Gondor/etc) - these have a set dimension and cannot go any bigger than that. We've got Regions (Bree-land, Minas Morgul, Vales of Anduin, etc) - these are more specifically geographic subsections of a territory. Then we've got Areas (Misthallow, Fields of Fornost, Chetwood, etc) - these are more local sections of a Region.

I don't believe we have a specific technical limitation on the size of a Region or Area, outside of the bounds of the Territory they belong to, there may be some data-related limitations in just how big those volumes can be.

Over the years, we've dabbled in areas of various sizes. The original game had areas of fairly small sizes, where as the Gondor era had much larger areas. Personally, I find smaller areas as beneficial to wayfinding in a region. Knowing what subsection of a region you are in can help you better understand where you are by looking at the game world and by looking at a map.

We haven't finalized the specifics of the size of what we are building for Umbar, but the team is excited to play in a new type of environment and to tackle the unique challenges establishing the boundaries a new style of landscape would entail.

Interesting. Thanks for the information.

And I can see why smaller areas are preferable. Making it easier for players to navigate/understand where they are is important, more so than making realistically large spaces(not that all large spaces are bad)

[gildhur]

We haven't finalized the specifics of the size of what we are building for Umbar, but the team is excited to play in a new type of environment and to tackle the unique challenges establishing the boundaries a new style of landscape would entail.

Can we infer from this that there isn't also any new landscape for After-battle Gondor, so just a new copy of Eastern Gondor with a facelift of sorts? Or am I reading too much between the lines here?

[auximenes]

We segment our data in a number of ways. At the top level is the Territory (Eriador/Rhovanion/Gondor/etc) - these have a set dimension and cannot go any bigger than that. We've got Regions (Bree-land, Minas Morgul, Vales of Anduin, etc) - these are more specifically geographic subsections of a territory. Then we've got Areas (Misthallow, Fields of Fornost, Chetwood, etc) - these are more local sections of a Region. I don't believe we have a specific technical limitation on the size of a Region or Area, outside of the bounds of the Territory they belong to, there may be some data-related limitations in just how big those volumes can be.

Thanks for the info.

[TesalionLortus]

Making it easier for players to navigate/understand where they are is important, more so than making realistically large spaces(not that all large spaces are bad)

Well, it is important, but I also think it shouldn't be overdone and done to the bone, because some of the specific larger spaces that offer a feeling of being lost (a desert would be like the most basic example of something like this) can have an immersive, wondrous factors too (and all kinds of games do that all the time).

Also, some spaces are just supposed to be large and if they're not... it sticks out awkwardly. Mordor compression worked somehow nicely, with that kickass Mt Doom in the middle and there was really not much that could have been there anyway, but some like Western/Central Gondor sticks out awkwardly, since that distance from mountains to coast is really... well, a bit play-pretend with a big P. It was actually somehow ok in Western Gondor, because the regions went more in a straight line from South to North, but in central Gondor and further it really is so tiny between coast and mountains. The size of all Gondor when combined together is really impressive but the compression at this particular interval really breaks the spell sometimes.

I think in LOTRO it may come down mostly to player complaints about how far they gotta ride for quests between hubs and so on but it isn't something that can't be alleviated a bit, if locations are set up smartly or you come up with a speed upgrade (new mount?) so players can move even faster than before. There are also these boats in the works and travel on water might make things much easier, if you can just hop on a boat, either sea or river, go in straight line some distance from shore, and then come ashore and get to where you need to go. Makes things far easier than possible before (when having to climb mountains or navigate around some obstacles only on land), especially in regions with access to continuous waters.




This makes me wonder... whether it could be a nice, experimental idea to have more zones within a content release but each with less quests in it, Scenario?

Like, the amount of work is the same (for content), just spread out among more zones - since Scenario mentioned zones serve as these "landmarks and pointers" for the players that can be more easily investigated on maps, so I get why they wouldn't want to put too much space into one single zone. But what if you have a bigger piece of landmass generated but have more named/mapped zones out of it? I guess I'm talking about South and Harad in general, not just Umbar. So like, you could have some more condensed neighboring zones and/or expansions, the classic style maybe with some CardoSwan approach in there, but then you could also have content releases with much larger landmasses but more zones made of them, with less content in each zone, and things not as tightly condensed (or condensed only at centers of maps, with the edges serving as immersion buffers for extra distances). So this second approach with more zones could work for more desolate places of Harad, borderlands between different kingdoms and clans, away from larger settlements, with just 1 or 2 villages, or in some desert landmasses of course, with a lone oasis somewhere that's a main hub of the place perhaps. Like, you could basically have a more kickass desert of significant size marked as one entire zone (that a player can feel like a place where you could get lost and that's indeed such a convincingly long distance between one country and the other across that desert) and can have some secrets or content around specific areas in there but not as much and not in a way we're used to (that would be mostly flatter, as a desert, and can be generated somehow more quickly than even something like Cardolan I guess?).

But with something like that, with such bigger zones/less content, would be possible to create this necessary illusion that these are massive lands South and East, not as super condensed like what happened to Gondor's coast, which is important to avoid IMO, since Gondor is one country... something like Harad is supposed to be much much larger and more expansive, with Umbar alone being an equivalent of a country state. Like, I would say you clearly recognize the issue, since additions such as Yondershire (plus Southfarthing one day!) or Cardolan really did solve some of that compression being visible in older areas by "extending" them, in a way.

[Elmagor]

Let's see on Cardolan and Swanfleet as example. We consider what this places don't have much people. And still we have like ~80 quests in every location. it's way too many NPC, way to many towns/camps for such unhabitable lands. I understand what devs was forced to create some hubs like Herne and Lhan Garanm but still it's way more quests when we have in more populated lands like Bree or Lone Lands. Maybe better way to do it was put some NPC in other locations? Like some orc-related quests can move from Andrath to Bree before South Guard Ruins. This way they can count for both Bree and Cardolan quests, and also put some interest into players to move from Bree to Cardolan. Same for all other locations. You need connect new locations with old locations not only with stables, but with quests too. Like we have some quests in East Rohan leading to Wildermore, and in West Gondor leading to Central Gondor. And in whole Eriador many quests connect Evendim with other locations

[Hierona]

We segment our data in a number of ways. At the top level is the Territory (Eriador/Rhovanion/Gondor/etc) - these have a set dimension and cannot go any bigger than that. We've got Regions (Bree-land, Minas Morgul, Vales of Anduin, etc) - these are more specifically geographic subsections of a territory. Then we've got Areas (Misthallow, Fields of Fornost, Chetwood, etc) - these are more local sections of a Region.

Just a question inbetween. Are there plans to split Rhovanian into Rhovanian and Rohan in more than the map? I feel as it would help performances better and alongside that make the deedlog less cluthered. Maybe also an interesting idea to do that for Eriador, splitting it in Eriador and Enedwaith (With the region Enedwaith being renamed Northern Enedwaith). It just bums me that there are basicly to many regions in a territory to show it of in a good manner and make it a bit more managable for players.

Could do it like this:
Eriador: Bree-land, Shire, Ered Luin, Cardolan, Swanfleet, Lone-lands, Trollshaws, Misty Mountains, Angmar, North Downs, Evendim, Forochel.
Enedwaith: Eregion, Northern Enedwaith, Dunland.
Rhovanion: Gundabad, Ered Mithrin, Eryn Lasgalen, Iron Hills, Vales of Anduin.
Rohan: Moria, Lothlorien, Southern Mirkwood, Great River, Wold, Norcrofts, East Wall, Sutcrofts, Entwash Vale, Wildermore, Broadacres, Kingstead, Westfold, Eastfold, Stonedeans

[TesalionLortus]

Just a question inbetween. Are there plans to split Rhovanian into Rhovanian and Rohan in more than the map? I feel as it would help performances better and alongside that make the deedlog less cluthered. Maybe also an interesting idea to do that for Eriador, splitting it in Eriador and Enedwaith (With the region Enedwaith being renamed Northern Enedwaith). It just bums me that there are basicly to many regions in a territory to show it of in a good manner and make it a bit more managable for players.

I guess it would make angry a whole LOT of people Have a whole open-world out there but then you make it smaller? NO! :P

Well, my suspicion is it would be too much work and wouldn't help with performance anyway, since there is clearly some loading stutter sometimes when you switch regions (which means not all these things are active all at once just because they're in the same map).

I agree it's all increasingly confusing though. I think they just need a solid map revamp and that would make it clear. I know, I know... just another revamp needed on the list, but yeah, it is what it is... Once they have 4K, maybe then they could start thinking of new map panels, with bigger maybe scrollable stitched together maps of Eriador/Rhovanion/Gondor/Mordor for orientation and these would replace the smaller, cluttered, unclear (not in-game terrain accurate) overview maps of these that we have now. Who knows, they might even put some cool regional borders on these and have their level ranges show up, like on maps in modern Assasin's Creed
PS: on such a map, that's larger and scrollable, it would perfectly possible to have Rohan show up fragmented as its regions but still have a kickass "Kingdom of Rohan" text near it or going straight through it, to make it clear this is its own separate thing on the Rhovanion open-world map. Hmm, depending on what they do with Gondor in future updates, I guess they can just have Mordor map not be called "Mordor" then, but more like "East of Middle-earth After the Fall." Or something.

[Hierona]

I guess it would make angry a whole LOT of people Have a whole open-world out there but then you make it smaller? NO! :P

Well, my suspicion is it would be too much work and wouldn't help with performance anyway, since there is clearly some loading stutter sometimes when you switch regions (which means not all these things are active all at once just because they're in the same map).

I agree it's all increasingly confusing though. I think they just need a solid map revamp and that would make it clear. I know, I know... just another revamp needed on the list, but yeah, it is what it is... Once they have 4K, maybe then they could start thinking of new map panels, with bigger maybe scrollable stitched together maps of Eriador/Rhovanion/Gondor/Mordor for orientation and these would replace the smaller, cluttered, unclear (not in-game terrain accurate) overview maps of these that we have now. Who knows, they might even put some cool regional borders on these and have their level ranges show up, like on maps in modern Assasin's Creed
PS: on such a map, that's larger and scrollable, it would perfectly possible to have Rohan show up fragmented as its regions but still have a kickass "Kingdom of Rohan" text near it or going straight through it, to make it clear this is its own separate thing on the Rhovanion open-world map. Hmm, depending on what they do with Gondor in future updates, I guess they can just have Mordor map not be called "Mordor" then, but more like "East of Middle-earth After the Fall." Or something.

I too would love a big open world, but honestly I don't mind a loading screen between zones which are already only connected with a gap. Like Lothlorien and the Vales, would it really hurt if there was a loading screen between? Something different would be Bree-land and Lone-lands, that is open and should be open, but I feel if the territories are smaller, performance goes up by a somewhat. Ofcourse I understand it would take a lot of work, and isn't just as simple as labeling things, but wanted it to be known to Scenario.


Something like this would only be a questionmark at Swanfleet imo, but Eriador is just huge right now so that the deedpage of Swanfleet and Cardolan is for both zones instead of one for swanfleet and one for cardolan.

[TesalionLortus]

Like Lothlorien and the Vales, would it really hurt if there was a loading screen between?

With any of these connection like this one it is also the question of what they may have planned for potential future zones - like that mountain gap with the rest of Fangorn and rest of Lorien, or East of Brown Lands and to Mirkwood

[Phantion]

I too would love a big open world, but honestly I don't mind a loading screen between zones which are already only connected with a gap. Like Lothlorien and the Vales, would it really hurt if there was a loading screen between? Something different would be Bree-land and Lone-lands, that is open and should be open, but I feel if the territories are smaller, performance goes up by a somewhat. Ofcourse I understand it would take a lot of work, and isn't just as simple as labeling things, but wanted it to be known to Scenario.

It seems to me that Scenario said the opposite somewhere earlier in this thread or in another: that the preference is to expand out "a territory" as much as possible since having more territories (Eriador, Rhovanion, etc.) actually cause havoc for the dat files and lag. Unless I misunderstood?

Cheers!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

will there be a desert? doesn't need to be a full blown huge chunk of map, I'd be happy with the edges of a desert, with the first sand dunes that can be climbed. Will there be..... an oasis????? (this is me wishful thinking, I know you probably can't tell us this because spoilers or NDA)

A desert could be a great way to make the border of the zone not too physically obvious - instead of a low wall, what about environmental attrition (like the Forochel ice bay)? The desert could stretch off as far as we could see in the distance and we could get some way towards it, but then our characters start to suffer from heatstroke and can't go any further. Then, when/if they expand that way, it is a handy narrative device that our characters find a way of adapting to the heat!

[TesalionLortus]

A desert could be a great way to make the border of the zone not too physically obvious - instead of a low wall, what about environmental attrition (like the Forochel ice bay)? The desert could stretch off as far as we could see in the distance and we could get some way towards it, but then our characters start to suffer from heatstroke and can't go any further. Then, when/if they expand that way, it is a handy narrative device that our characters find a way of adapting to the heat!

That could be a nice way to avoid all these fishbowls everywhere... and like I said, I'm kinda tired of elevations everywhere on all sides... Maybe they can just have like "You may get lost! You know nothing of this distant land/a desert can be deadly!" text show up and either invisible wall there or getting teleported away (like there already is in Central Gondor if you sail too far into the sea). If landmass gets expanded that way, then PC can just run into a new NPC who supposedly explained some of that area, so we get access to it. (Or nothing at all, and it wouldn't be jarring too, since the new default for the story would be that that region is fair game and you can freely go there as part of open world from the start, that would be fine too)

[miriadel]

A desert could be a great way to make the border of the zone not too physically obvious - instead of a low wall, what about environmental attrition (like the Forochel ice bay)? The desert could stretch off as far as we could see in the distance and we could get some way towards it, but then our characters start to suffer from heatstroke and can't go any further. Then, when/if they expand that way, it is a handy narrative device that our characters find a way of adapting to the heat!

well, new bioms means new trees, maybe we can have a big palm leaf to protect ourselves XD