U35 Return to Carn Dum - Power Update

[HoneyTrap]

they will finally be able to sell their power pots in the store now. Although I am, absolutely sure that thought never crossed their discussions with the new power nerfs. -)

[SingularityNow]

Currently power is already a real aspect of the game from early to mid levels that kind of oddly fades away at higher levels. We'd rather it remains as it gives us more ways to balance abilities and gives players more flexibility in how they pace themselves in fights - for example, a raid group that focuses on making sure their group is fully topped up before the next wave of adds hits, and then shifts to an all out burn phase, then back to conserve for a bit when the waves are dealt with.

Solo challenge play is a concern in cases where fights go unusually long, though in most instances players do have a fair bit of control over pacing in solo settings and the individual battles are usually much shorter.

However, we did expect a fair bit of initial concern with this project - and if in fact we find that we *can't* get it to a point where we are comfortable with it as a player mechanic in late game content, we can and will simply tune it back down to the point where it remains basically irrelevant at those levels. One of the elements of this re-work was to give us better control over how power scales throughout the game, so modifying the general balance on it is much easier now, whereas it was rather difficult previously.

- Vastin

How have you accounted for the opportunity cost we're going to incur in adding icpr because all boss encounters currently at higher tiers are dps races that leave no room in our builds for a reduction in dps?

[Vastin]

How have you accounted for the opportunity cost we're going to incur in adding icpr because all boss encounters currently at higher tiers are dps races that leave no room in our builds for a reduction in dps?

It's actually one of the reasons I decided to coincide this with the Mastery change - which should be bumping player DPS noticeably and will likely offset any hit from power management mechanics.

-Vastin

[Fresuvi]

Currently power is already a real aspect of the game from early to mid levels that kind of oddly fades away at higher levels. We'd rather it remains as it gives us more ways to balance abilities and gives players more flexibility in how they pace themselves in fights - for example, a raid group that focuses on making sure their group is fully topped up before the next wave of adds hits, and then shifts to an all out burn phase, then back to conserve for a bit when the waves are dealt with.

Solo challenge play is a concern in cases where fights go unusually long, though in most instances players do have a fair bit of control over pacing in solo settings and the individual battles are usually much shorter.

However, we did expect a fair bit of initial concern with this project - and if in fact we find that we *can't* get it to a point where we are comfortable with it as a player mechanic in late game content, we can and will simply tune it back down to the point where it remains basically irrelevant at those levels. One of the elements of this re-work was to give us better control over how power scales throughout the game, so modifying the general balance on it is much easier now, whereas it was rather difficult previously.

- Vastin

The aspect of the power rework that I’m most concerned about is the fact that new content rarely ever has any room to “slow down” as you put it. This is the case in both healing and DPS aspects of modern Lotro encounters. This is less of a problem months after content has been released and LI’s have been increased in level/new gear options are released.

For example, Hiddenhoard in T4 and T5 had extremely tight enrage timers and extremely high damage to the group. Arbitrarily slowing down the ability to DPS or heal at a maximum capacity for this type of content would’ve made it impossible to complete(it was already pretty close to unkillable prior to significant nerfs). I sincerely hope that as a team SSG is considering this in the development of the U35 instanced content. If it isn’t done right, it’s going to make end game really frustrating and/or push higher tier groups into extremely narrow class compositions to work around power cost/regen mechanics.

As a final note, I appreciate that the team is trying to make power interesting and relevant again at end game, I just hope it doesn’t come with the cost of reducing the pace of gameplay unnecessarily or restricting group composition even further in challenging content.

[Neinda]

It's actually one of the reasons I decided to coincide this with the Mastery change - which should be bumping player DPS noticeably and will likely offset any hit from power management mechanics.

-Vastin

Note: I have no issue with power management. If fact, I feel it will cause all kinds of change as it will require people to look at what is happening and think about the best choice to make. My main concern/question here is are you implementing this change game wide or is this something that applies going forward and all past content is DOA because power management does not mesh well with the boss mechanics in old content?


Just a tiny history lesson to think about here. When Mordor hit the game you brought back light (aka radiance). It even made sense for the area up to a point. Now it is a dead and annoying system and the content for that area is annoying at best because no one really has enough light to go back and help new people through the raid. This ended up being a case of it was ok for the expansion area but did not work with the rest of the game. The game has moved on leaving the light system pretty much dead along with the content from that expansion.

Since you are bringing back power management, it will take more than a few pots from the store and a tiny buff in DPS and heals to make it workable for all content in the game. Are there any plans to adjust the mechanics, damage and overall systems in place in all content in the game? From my view, increasing DPS and heals to offset power management isn't really changing much of anything for the raid crowd. You are giving people better dps and heals to get to the same point via a different route. Nothing really changes drastically other than rotations. I see this as causing more issues for less than cap or solo play especially in missions and delvings. It appears to be fancy numbers and a new way to get to the same end result. Power management does not really fit well with current instance and raid mechanics where boss fights are on timers which require massive everything in a short burst of time.

Power management is doable if the systems in game are adjusted to compensate for the required power management. Store power potions being required and a must for group content will only server to annoy and drive people away.

P.S. I really wish you would bring back FMs if you are bringing back true power management and this is more than just changing the way players get from point a to point b. They will help to make up for the DPS/heals/etc. that need to be reduced in order to keep power at acceptable levels.

[ScionofAngmar]

Why not link power to the magnitude of the damage or healing of your skills? The more power you have, the more effective your skills are, in other words. I don't like how power prevents you from using your skill at all when it runs out (and it never made much sense to me). This would make for more interesting rotational tactics while also removing some of the larger frustrations that (I think) come with power management.

[Vilan]

Every raid has an LM anyway, and we took care of power back in the day. Sure I have a dozen other things to do... if you want to play a simple class, hunters are that way. At least now the power restore tracery won't be a meme.

[Sindhol]

I'm cautiously happy about the return of power management. I do think it won't be very good (that is, we'll not see a lot of interesting trade-offs between power cost and skill power) until the equipment system and various skills/class traits have been adjusted, which will take a lot of work. Also, I'm not sure about removing ICPR from Fate. The stat has almost nothing going for it.

But yeah, in principle a good thing to fix up.

[Neinda]

Is power regen going to added to the virtue system since it is no longer tied to fate or any character stat currently in the game?

[Aeviternus]

Have you considered the effects of Power Drains in PvMP specifically, with the changes to power that you have implemented? Let me give you an example:

Luckydoo scored a hit with Toxin on Failure for 9,639 damage to Power.

Remember, Toxin from multiple Weavers stacks. I will never be able to use my high power cost abilities because my power never regens enough to be able to cast them in the first place. This needs to be adjusted, otherwise PvMP combat will become utterly meaningless.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Why not link power to the magnitude of the damage or healing of your skills? The more power you have, the more effective your skills are, in other words. I don't like how power prevents you from using your skill at all when it runs out (and it never made much sense to me). This would make for more interesting rotational tactics while also removing some of the larger frustrations that (I think) come with power management.

This is an excellent idea that has been echoed by many different people over the years.

unfortunately, it was echoed mostly by the PVMP community, hence why it was likely ignored. the "wrong" people supported it.

[shino047]

The healing increase seem to have made some blue rune-keeper heals too strong, for example the spammable writ of health is healing more than one of minstrel's best cooldown skills fellowship's heart

Edit: Also some Blue captain heals are way too strong

[Theozor]

The new power scheme seems fine from my testing but I'm also not a raider.

[theultimatekyle]

so far the power changes feel awful. On red cappy I couldnt even test the new solo stance properly because it just runs out of power so quickly. Blue cappy I tried a heal parse with a friend on a dummy, and even with the power restore from inspire, and the power restore on improved rallying cry (from defeat/crit) I couldnt actually make it through a parse without bottoming out multiple times. Hunter was less egregious to parse on, but still not fun. Bow of the righteous has a disgustingly long animation, and the animation for intent concentration is pretty bad too.

You should at least be able to parse without issue on one of your 3 min housing dummies.

[Vastin]

so far the power changes feel awful. On red cappy I couldnt even test the new solo stance properly because it just runs out of power so quickly. Blue cappy I tried a heal parse with a friend on a dummy, and even with the power restore from inspire, and the power restore on improved rallying cry (from defeat/crit) I couldnt actually make it through a parse without bottoming out multiple times. Hunter was less egregious to parse on, but still not fun. Bow of the righteous has a disgustingly long animation, and the animation for intent concentration is pretty bad too.

You should at least be able to parse without issue on one of your 3 min housing dummies.

Sounds like Captain is running considerably too hot if you're bottoming it out that quickly, so we'll take a look at that.

- Vastin

[StormsFury85]

Sounds like Captain is running considerably too hot if you're bottoming it out that quickly, so we'll take a look at that.

- Vastin

can you take a look at the power scaling at lower levels compared to the power drains applied by enemy mobs?

for example:
Loremaster level 50 has 900 power (the power regen is fine, the fault isn't so much with that) but the scaling of power drains. either the power of players at level 1-60+ needs to be raised, so not to be so immediately ruined by a single tick of a power drain, or power drains of enemies need to be lowered drastically.

Level 20's in great barrows will have around 200 power and power drains will ruin their day instantly.
I dare not even think of a level 10 killing multiple sickle-fly in the shire, they would be out of power within 3 seconds flat
I would suggest raising the power pools scaling at lower/mid levels marginally, and lowering power drains slightly at lower/mid levels.


My 50 loremaster has 3,000 power for example on live, compared to 900 on bullroarer. for the same icpr (skills have lowered in cost) but debuffs, and drains have remained the same value.

https://imgur.com/a/004HNvW

[LagunaD2]

Proper tuning will likely take some time, but I applaud the decision to make power relevant again.

[Sherush]

We already have cooldown management which means you are supposed to use the biggest skills right off cooldown and not let them sit around, if someone does this efficiently they should NOT be punished with running out of power.

For healing, this means saving the biggest heals for the right moment because of long cds (in worst situations this means right off cd) so I don't understand why power management is needed with this, It would make sense only if skills had no cooldowns where you can just spam yourself out of power with the biggest skill. This does not mean the currently spammable rotations should be made high power cost because those are the only skills you can use while waiting for cds. And what are players going to do if the healing requirements exceed the power capacity?

Having a fast and efficient rotation should not be punished with running out of power faster.

Agree as a LM on live and on legendary I am crazy busy tying to have eyes in back of my head and when some one now says I need power i am like ok when do I do that as debuff need reply there and that mob need a new stun..... tank needs a heal applied.... now..... I have to power entire raid.... sorry what I can see my loved toon going on the shelf.

[Sherush]

Note:

P.S. I really wish you would bring back FMs if you are bringing back true power management and this is more than just changing the way players get from point a to point b. They will help to make up for the DPS/heals/etc. that need to be reduced in order to keep power at acceptable levels.

Agree I would like to see FM brought back to what they ordinally were like

[Snobs]

Burglar power costs are significantly too high and the power regeneration is not nearly enough. It's quite common to run out of power within just 15-20 seconds if you're not permanently critting with Subtle Stab. A single good and fast burst rotation can cost a burglar up to 30-40% of their total power within just 1 second. Critting with Subtle Stab only grants power equal to 2.5 skills which is super low.

This is not acceptable and also isn't really comparable to what many other classes experience.

1. Why at all have the RNG element of having to crit Subtle Stab to regenerate power? Why not just make it always regenerate power? It's bad game design if I need to win RNG to be able to press Buttons.
2. Considering that Burglars no longer have the ability to regenerate power via "Burglar's Antidote" at their will and at range, they are forced to stick in melee to regenerate power now (which is not always possible).
3. Power costs should be halved. Losing 1/3rd of my total power doing a normal quick burst rotation just doesn't feel right.

[ReneKiller1]

With the power changes, power regeneration food will probably be more important. Currently their duration is 10 minutes, while many endgame boss fights are 15 to 20 minutes, sometimes even longer and you can't eat during the fight. Please consider increasing the duration (at least double it, so it is on par with Trail Food; I've always wondered why they even have different durations). Alternativley allow us to eat during the fight (although I could understand if not being able to eat during the fight is meant as some sort of death penalty).

[Nanganark]

The main problem I see with the power revamp is this: Not everyone, really not everyone runs out of power at the same time, which makes Lore Master a pure power pusher again, in general the power cost of (all) classes is set too high and ICPR is really bad if not useless, Burglar can't even do normal damage without being powerless all the time. Captain is pretty much powerless no matter what he does. Hunter, Ok, Bow of the Righteous is something good, but the power drain is too enormous here too, also the long animation of it is annoying. In terms of PvP don't even get me started, if you hit a Weaver that's it, same with Defiler? I think you guys should really go back over the books and work on reworking the power, in itself I don't think it's a bad decision, it was just poorly implemented...

[Sindhol]

Power costs on my warden are high, especially with sped-up gambits. Throwing in Dark Before the Dawn seems to work, though. I imagine that in a raid, Inspire power restore will also help.


I think it would be a good idea to change morale and power regen to a rating system, just like e.g. mitigations and mastery. For example, if you use the same rating-to-percentage formula as mastery, you can just grant that percentage of maximum power restored per minute (or per 30s or whatever, adjust to taste). You can get rid of max power buffs if they threaten to push ICPR too much.

You could also--more radically--change max morale and power to a similar system. Just add "morale mastery" and cap morale at 200% of some base value that's derived from level.


In general, it would be better to switch to a diminishing returns-based system instead of a cap-based system, but if you're going to have a cap system, all stats (especially the important ones) should have caps, else you get the whole "screw resist, stack morale into the stratosphere" build paradigm, which is boring. And it should be easier to balance against, too.

[Chris91]

The healing increase seem to have made some blue rune-keeper heals too strong, for example the spammable writ of health is healing more than one of minstrel's best cooldown skills fellowship's heart

Edit: Also some Blue captain heals are way too strong

That comparison makes no sense at all.

WoH and Rousing Words is all the group healing RK has in total
So outside the ~5s every 20s when you can cast RW you only have WoH

Meanwhile Minstrels constantly heal the group through Inspire Fellows, BC, RtS and Major Ballad, have tons of cooldowns for dire situations that RK just has to deal with

Just looking at 2 random skills without comparing the whole class kit can never lead to useful results regarding balance diskussions

[ivan582]

1. Perverance. Necessary to change bonuses for ranks.
2. Traceries for Press Onward. No power
3. Strength of the Earth Traceries. This must change for Power restore. Perhaps add +% damage buff or -CD