Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Hierona]

Out of sight, hopefully. Yes, it is very different and something else entirely, you shouldn't be trying to understand it because as it stands it's not canon.

This is what happens when you come up with vastly alternate takes on different map. Some people are just confused and looking at things in disbelief, even after reading the "reimagined" word, because it's just that unprecedented. If I didn't know that from this forum and haven't seen Scenario's confirmation/explanation and first time experienced in game... I would probably stare at the screen trying to figure out what's up, not to mention the confusion of Dol Guldur towers in it. Can't remember anything like it from any game/sequal I played. Well, maybe between version 1.0 and 3.0 of a complex mod a change like that would be noticeable But yeah, not good if LOTRO devs turn into outright modders in their approach to the game, it is its own different thing where the rules are : can change entirely any time or modder may just abandon it, not that you pay for it anyway

PS: Not that it's going to happen but... I would gladly launch it into the skies, gave it a cool point over so it's not overly Angmar and fix some of the tower situation, and then dropped somewhere in Nurn for later use Or for Angmar Besieged map and the tale of the Witch King's defeat, though some narrow mountain passes would still need to be added to reflect OG terrain. But if that's pristine version and shares some of the layout, then I could see how some of these city district collapsed/were destroyed by water leakage after whatever destruction the good guys brought to it which would result in a more watery legacy version.

Yeah it's weird. Although superior in everyway to the old one just by seeing the map it still makes no sense the old one is not changed. Could be something like Barad Gúlaran which was also a fortress of the Witch-King. I would have just called it different and said it is on the west side of Carn Dûm and made accesible as lvl 55 zone, but that probably is not happening.


Something like this could work. Just make it lay a bit in a valley with Bail Avarc being like a viewpoint both ways. Make it like the real fortress of the Witch-king with Carn Dûm being more of the city of the enemy and his castle being mostly a lair while in war he goes to Galadhon.


The rivers could flow like this into Imlad Balchorth. And you can make it accesible from Dûn Covád in the south. Bail Avarc in the 50 zone could be an orc camp or something that has been overrun already, just not inhabited yet.

[TesalionLortus]

Something like this could work. Just make it lay a bit in a valley with Bail Avarc being like a viewpoint both ways. Make it like the real fortress of the Witch-king with Carn Dûm being more of the city of the enemy and his castle being mostly a lair while in war he goes to Galadhon.

Well, something like this is what I expected that would happen, if we went to Angmar again. But you gotta design for it and it doesn't exactly work now, since the entire fortress is clearly based on OG Carn Dum and in certain parts even a perfect mirror of it, so how awkward would that be to run into it right next to Carn Dum (or see it in the distance). Plus, Carn Dum is Carn Dum, kinda strange to say there is something just as big next to it, so if they went that route, the devs would need to design something more constrained that doesn't feel as big as Carn Dum but perhaps more vertical so still very spacey and cool looking. Or just give that sort of treatment to OG's castle, which wasn't really used for anything and is just a background structure, so then they could actually replace it on the Angmar map and make it look much better.

[Hierona]

Well, something like this is what I expected that would happen, if we went to Angmar again. But you gotta design for it and it doesn't exactly work now, since the entire fortress is clearly based on OG Carn Dum and in certain parts even a perfect mirror of it, so how awkward would that be to run into it right next to Carn Dum (or see it in the distance). Plus, Carn Dum is Carn Dum, kinda strange to say there is something just as big next to it, so if they went that route, the devs would need to design something more constrained that doesn't feel as big as Carn Dum but perhaps more vertical so still very spacey and cool looking. Or just give that sort of treatment to OG's castle, which wasn't really used for anything and is just a background structure, so then they could actually replace it on the Angmar map and make it look much better.

Neh, it is fine if it is the fortress of the city. I needs to be big and imposing that way. I just hope they do realise they can't just revamp the city without making the old one the same city otherwise that will be really distracting for players I imagine. I gonna see it as Annuminas and Fornost only closer together. Annuminas is the main city and is where most of the people life, while Fornost is the stronghold designed to withstand attacks.

[TesalionLortus]

Neh, it is fine if it is the fortress of the city. I needs to be big and imposing that way. I just hope they do realise they can't just revamp the city without making the old one the same city otherwise that will be really distracting for players I imagine. I gonna see it as Annuminas and Fornost only closer together. Annuminas is the main city and is where most of the people life, while Fornost is the stronghold designed to withstand attacks.

But the new version isnn't just a fortress, is actually city bigger than the old one + kickass fortress. Fornost and Annuminas don't look as similar though, and OG version is already a good defensive point with narrow passes nested into elevations - wouldn't make sense that there is some even greater fortress in better shape with more open approach and portion of the defenses/walls faced in the direction of Forochel/Forodwaith no less (what for?) rather than use a natural barrier. The layout is (mostly) cool and realistic, it's just doesn't belong in this particular space and doesn't exactly fit into entire SoA story told earlier

[Scenario]

This space is not, from the narrative perspective, a distinct and different space. It is meant to be a re-imagining of Carn Dum, built in the manners we would build it today knowing what we know now of how to build city structures. It is, if you will, a "remastering" of the space to show off the potential of what we can accomplish within our current engine and modern design sensibilities.

A few posts back, someone mentioned something to the effect that the original Carn Dum was "built by video game devs to make a video game space" and that is very true. When we built the original Carn Dum, for many of us, it was our first game design rodeo. It's super gamey and a menagerie of Angmar which feels like an exercise in whether or not we could, as opposed to whether or not we should (from the design sense).

We want to be sensitive to the nostalgia people feel for the original instance, and for that reason and just the sheer effort of implementation and testing, the original version will not be retrofitted with this look.

[Hierona]

This space is not, from the narrative perspective, a distinct and different space. It is meant to be a re-imagining of Carn Dum, built in the manners we would build it today knowing what we know now of how to build city structures. It is, if you will, a "remastering" of the space to show off the potential of what we can accomplish within our current engine and modern design sensibilities.

A few posts back, someone mentioned something to the effect that the original Carn Dum was "built by video game devs to make a video game space" and that is very true. When we built the original Carn Dum, for many of us, it was our first game design rodeo. It's super gamey and a menagerie of Angmar which feels like an exercise in whether or not we could, as opposed to whether or not we should (from the design sense).

But isn't it possible to include the old one into this and revamp that one too. It now is a bit weird, tho I'm sure it will look amazing.

[k40rne]

This space is not, from the narrative perspective, a distinct and different space. It is meant to be a re-imagining of Carn Dum, built in the manners we would build it today knowing what we know now of how to build city structures. It is, if you will, a "remastering" of the space to show off the potential of what we can accomplish within our current engine and modern design sensibilities.

A few posts back, someone mentioned something to the effect that the original Carn Dum was "built by video game devs to make a video game space" and that is very true. When we built the original Carn Dum, for many of us, it was our first game design rodeo. It's super gamey and a menagerie of Angmar which feels like an exercise in whether or not we could, as opposed to whether or not we should (from the design sense).

We want to be sensitive to the nostalgia people feel for the original instance, and for that reason and just the sheer effort of implementation and testing, the original version will not be retrofitted with this look.

But what about for a potential Angmar besieged situation in the future? It would be ideal for that purpose.

[TesalionLortus]

This space is not, from the narrative perspective, a distinct and different space. It is meant to be a re-imagining of Carn Dum,

But when your player looks at something and sees something outright different that's clearly distinct and a difference. This is not some "extra content, come and see how we would built it today, like it or not, it doesn't affect you" completely in the void, there will be some storylines attached and end game, and the place has entire previous storylines connected to it within the established world, some of which wouldn't even work without all the "gamey space" that you cut off and now try to pretend that maybe didn't exist at all in the current present day of the game's time. So it's weird, confusing and immersion-breaking, when handled like this

built in the manners we would build it today knowing what we know now of how to build city structures. It is, if you will, a "remastering" of the space to show off the potential of what we can accomplish within our current engine and modern design sensibilities.

Yes, but why not stick to the original terrain and layout? Like the ancient city of Termessos, surrounded by mountains, with narrow fortified approaches, passes and natural barriers... just make it feel more real and less "2007 gamey" if you will... Why not? Now, that would be a remastering. What you've done with the space is... a reboot Completely changed idea and completely changed approach to the lore behind it (looking quite pristine and fine, and not a crumbling and collapsed bridge like in the old one). That's a huge difference. That's not "giving it a facelift" that's utterly changing it - even in spite of the lore, or some common sense sometimes.

We want to be sensitive to the nostalgia people feel for the original instance, and for that reason and just the sheer effort of implementation and testing, the original version will not be retrofitted with this look.

Or maybe it's not just mere nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses. Speaking for myself, there are plenty of different logical, lore, historical, strategic and other reasons why it doesn't sit right with me if it's built high in the mountains (first and foremost would border on natural barriers and made fortifications there, not just surround itself with regular walls). Just... give it some thought. I wouldn't like being forced into "reimagined Fornost" instances that hijack current narrative and so on and so on. I love you, Scenario! But... wish to see the world grow and get upgrades where these are needed but in ways that respect the original vision/lore... rather than see you guys try to entirely reboot places of the game with completely different ideas.

[MadeofLions]

Speaking for myself...

You're telling me the person who always wants wide open spaces (not like that) to just wander around in and stumble on quests (not like that), but also wants us to hurry up the story (not like that) while also improving the graphics in existing areas (not like that) doesn't like this new take on Carn Dum? Behold my shocked face!

In all seriousness, I think it's okay to not like everything in the game. I have my own preferences, for instance, and so does Scenario, and so does everyone who works on it. I think that's natural, and it's okay. The original instances aren't going anywhere, and you can spend all day in the original Carn Dum if you like it better. Both can coexist - videogames are cool like that, and it's part of the fun of adaptations: you can see another take on it without it harming the original source material.

MoL

[TesalionLortus]

You're telling me the person who always wants wide open spaces (not like that) to just wander around in and stumble on quests (not like that), but also wants us to hurry up the story (not like that) while also improving the graphics in existing areas (not like that) doesn't like this new take on Carn Dum? Behold my shocked face!

Not like that because everything has its time and place and there is, I don't know, balance to things? To say that I "always" want X is an exaggeration but some of the X's could be there. Things can be done differently under different conditions, and overall things could have variety, but not "on a whim" kind of variety. I don't always want X in every single situation, regardless of context.

I have my own preferences, for instance, and so does Scenario, and so does everyone who works on it. I think that's natural, and it's okay.

Perfectly natural. But this is exactly why there gotta be a guardian of sorts with an eagle's view on things, to rein everyone in, sometimes, if things go in the direction of too much inconsistency.

The original instances aren't going anywhere, and you can spend all day in the original Carn Dum if you like it better. Both can coexist - videogames are cool like that, and it's part of the fun of adaptations: you can see another take on it without it harming the original source material.

I lost you now... What kind of adaptation? Are you making an adaptation of your own game now? I mean, I don't know... name one single game with decent lore that would follow such a philosophy of "fun" in course of its tale and world map... Seriously, MoL :P I mean, you don't want to turn into WoW's confusing mess of a lore... because where is fun in that? Lore is a lore for a reason

[Arnand_the_Fox]

I lost you now... What kind of adaptation? Are you making an adaptation of your own game now? I mean, I don't know... name one single game with decent lore that would follow such a philosophy of "fun" in course of its tale and world map... Seriously, MoL :P I mean, you don't want to turn into WoW's confusing mess of a lore... because where is fun in that? Lore is a lore for a reason

Pretty much every single long running MMO I can think of has gone back and re-done, either entirely, or in small instances, older areas, while still leaving the older version in place in some missions/instances. And this isn't even just limited to video games. Long running TV and movie franchise have done the same. Star Trek, Doctor Who, Star Wars, etc.

Every piece of media. Every video game, book, TV show, movie, etc is just an abstraction of an original idea. But like all abstractions, they're built within the limits they have at the time, and thus, never 100% true to what was originally thought. No one made Star Trek: The Original Series with the idea that its a 100% correct visual representation of what the Star Trek universe looks like. It was just the most achievable abstraction they could make at the time. And they've gone back and changed many elements within the universe into new forms many times in the 50+ years its been around. No one makes things in TV shows, movies, video games, under the guide of "visual literalism", that what you're seeing is a totally accurate representation of that thing. Its all abstractions, and said abstractions change as needed for whatever fits best with whatever they need to do, or what they can now achieve with much better tech/tools/budget years later.

That has nothing to do with lore. Lore is information about a world. That Carn Dum exists, and is a mountain fortress, is lore. The exact layout/appearance of Carn Dum isn't lore. There is no lore on exactly what Carn Dum looked like, its all just an abstraction. The abstraction can change in any number of ways and not change any actual lore in the game.

[TesalionLortus]

Pretty much every single long running MMO I can think of has gone back and re-done, either entirely, or in small instances, older areas, while still leaving the older version in place in some missions/instances.

And how many of these MMOs would be as interconnected in terms of their storytelling as LOTRO is? Some wouldn't. But yeah, some MMOs do that and even a lot, and may do it wrong, and then look at WoW - players are basically telling new players asking about lore or expecting to explore the world with its stories to read old articles and YouTube videos because it has become such a trainwreck with so many things changed, rebooted, discarded and replaced over the years (including models with massive visual changes that have nothing to do with previous incarnations) that it's become an incomprehensive mess of a lore.

Besides, if it's done right, like the old Bree to new Bree, then I don't have issues. The new Last Homely House is probably another good example of how to do this, though I couldn't tell yet, haven't seen it myself yet.

And this isn't even just limited to video games. Long running TV and movie franchise have done the same. Star Trek, Doctor Who, Star Wars, etc.

For any major differences and outright visual/conceptual changes - it usually happens in a reboot series, which, by definition, has almost nothing to do with what came before except when it chooses to adapt things similarly, but it has its brand new lore entirely unconnected to the old one. Is LOTRO a rebooted game? No, it's still the same one with the same continuity.

The exact layout/appearance of Carn Dum isn't lore.

Not lore of Tolkien canon. But it is a lore of the game. (That even fed heavily into Car Bronach and Elderslade, recent content)

The abstraction can change in any number of ways and not change any actual lore in the game.

It literally changes the previously established lore of the game. I could understand the Galactic Senate having some slight differences in it in the movies and the Clone Wars series but still looks pretty much the same. Count Dooku isn't a perfect image of Christopher Lee but he doesn't have a yellow beard, still white. The Carn Dum situation is as if the next episode of the Bad Batch tried to tell me the Senate is located on another planet and always has been and it's now flying chairs rather than platforms, in cubical space instead of round and on the outside it has multiple giant laser canons attached to it. I'm not sure how is that "just abstraction" and "nothing to do with lore" (of the game). You can give older areas a facelift or even redefine them in modern ways that feel more real without making it an outright lore-breaking jarring reboot. I'll just say it again, why not more of an ancient city of Termessos treatment? So a familiar space with a familiar layout made more believable and real and more modern, not a reboot.

[Scenario]

This all said - I feel like this line of discussion has co-opted the original intention of this thread. I heartily encourage this discussion to continue either in new thread, or in the Bullroarer sub-forum and allow the speculation regarding the future landscapes to continue here unburdened by circular discussions of present landscapes.

[TesalionLortus]

I feel like technically it's long past that point because should have been only about "filling the gaps" (meaning these actual glaring gaps and holes in existing landscapes), so not even Umbar. I guess we could use "Story" and "Landscape" forum sections?

[Aleziana]

This all said - I feel like this line of discussion has co-opted the original intention of this thread. I heartily encourage this discussion to continue either in new thread, or in the Bullroarer sub-forum and allow the speculation regarding the future landscapes to continue here unburdened by circular discussions of present landscapes.

Wait... do you mean that Forodwaith isn't a tease for a future "Filling the Gaps" region??? :P

[TesalionLortus]

Wait... do you mean that Forodwaith isn't a tease for a future "Filling the Gaps" region??? :P

Technically, it would probably be called something else, if it was supposed to fill that gap between Angmar, North Downs and Forochel :P I will probably treat that as a "soft" tease not indication there is Forodwaith right West of Angmar's Western border (though there can be a road to Forodwaith leading North)

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Well, back more to the thread's original topic

• Brown Lands - Helping Radagast, and some Ents, investigate what happened to the Entwives, and dealing with the Easterlings moving to attack Rohan.
• Emyn Muil - Tracking orcs into this mountainous region, and helping cover Frodo and Sam's trail.
• Anfalas - Some advanced force of Corsairs are harassing this largely undefended region before the main force camped in Tarlang's Crown moves in, and we stop them.
• White Mountains - Helping the Dwarven settlements of Zigil-jâbal, and Kechel, deal with remnants of the White Hand orcs fleeing the loss at Helms Deep, and the destruction of Isengard.
• Deep Mirkwood - Tracking down where the Taurogrim are coming from, and why they've started to return
• Deep Fangorn - Helping the Ents deal with more of Saruman's machinations in the Fangorn Forest
• Tol Falas - One off/isolated adventure dealing with a hunt for some buried treasure
• Northern/Southern Erid Luin - Exploring the long ruined Dwarves halls of Belegost and Nogrod. More early Dourhand shenanigans, and Blue-Crag goblin background
• Southfarthing - More Lotho/Ruffian/Saruman build up for an inevitable Scouring of the Shire release
• Forochel/Angmar gap - More stuff with the Lossoth, their background/history from Forodwaith, the Angmariam's attempts to manipulate them, some Dwarven history for their ruins in this region/Forochel.
• Minhiriath/Western Enedwaith - More background/story on the bandits and such Saruman is recruiting

Are the non level cap, filling in the world, based map ideas I can think of.

[TesalionLortus]

I would re-evaluate a few as something perfectly suitable for cap content

• Tol Falas - One off/isolated adventure dealing with a hunt for some buried treasure

Or... maybe it's coming soon? I don't believe they're just going to skip Tolfalas while they build around the coast towards Umbar (or from Umbar, what you will, we have no idea what will come). But it would be a no-brainer then to include Tolfalas as part of the Bay. So cap no doubt

• Northern/Southern Erid Luin - Exploring the long ruined Dwarves halls of Belegost and Nogrod. More early Dourhand shenanigans, and Blue-Crag goblin background

It would be problematic to explore Belegost and Nogrod unless they were willing to change their usual approach and give us some nightmarish, claustrophobic experience of ruined tunnels and halls, deep deep below ground, because it was buried and deformed after Beleriand was destroyed, so not just a little bit ruined like Moria or Gundabad. Now, that would be new and appropriate and I can get behind it, though would be silly for lowbies, so again, cap. But for real, they're probably not willing to do that, so: More cap Dourhand shenanigans with Brathar back in their origin lands and a decent Dourhand backstory, maybe some lost kingdom of the Dourhand - with some connection to Nogrod/Belegost and First Age, this could be a nice story like with Motsog (maybe Blue-crag remnants being used by Brathar, they didn't really take part in the war after being driven off early back in that storyline)

• Forochel/Angmar gap - More stuff with the Lossoth, their background/history from Forodwaith, the Angmariam's attempts to manipulate them, some Dwarven history for their ruins in this region/Forochel.

Angmar, back then, only came there in search of Narchuil, as it was told, I don't see much reason for them to try and manipulate the Lossoths who were quite sturdy and resistant and had bad blood with the Witch-king. That gap would be perfect for an update that leads directly to expansion set in Forodwaith/parts of Forochel. And I don't really see much of Forochel being in that gap other than the "unfilled" parts that already exist on the map (which are substantial, if they were all supposed to be filled in). The gap would be mainly new parts of Angmar, new section of North Downs, and just borderlands of Forochel, maybe transitioning into that snowy part of Angmar the devs wanted to make back in the day but scrapped it

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Angmar, back then, only came there in search of Narchuil, as it was told, I don't see much reason for them to try and manipulate the Lossoths who were quite sturdy and resistant and had bad blood with the Witch-king. That gap would be perfect for an update that leads directly to expansion set in Forodwaith/parts of Forochel. And I don't really see much of Forochel being in that gap other than the "unfilled" parts that already exist on the map (which are substantial, if they were all supposed to be filled in). The gap would be mainly new parts of Angmar, new section of North Downs, and just borderlands of Forochel, maybe transitioning in that snowy part of Angmar the devs wanted to make back in the day but scrapped it

Personally, if we ever go into Forodwaith, I would assume they would have us enter via the Rhovanion area. Tie it into the path from the Iron Hills, behind Erebor, that connects to the Grey Mountains. That way they can more easily tie it into the Thafar-gathol plot, and the Hobgoblins in Gundabad, rather than have us enter Forodwaith as far away from any of that as possible. It would also make more sense level range wise. Don't think they'd want to place a level 160+ zone between two early game level 50 zones.

Or... maybe it's coming soon? I don't believe they're just going to skip Tolfalas while they build around the coast towards Umbar (or from Umbar, what you will, we have no idea what will come). But it would be a no-brainer then to include Tolfalas as part of the Bay. So cap no doubt

Assuming the bay is its own map. I could see them adding Tol Falas as part of the Umbar plot, but in that case it would probably be some instanced area for some quests in Harondor, like the islands off of Dol Amroth are. Rather then its own map/release.

It would be problematic to explore Belegost and Nogrod unless they were willing to change their usual approach and give us some nightmarish, claustrophobic experience of ruined tunnels and halls, deep deep below ground, because it was buried and deformed after Beleriand was destroyed, so not just a little bit ruined like Moria or Gundabad. Now, that would be new and appropriate and I can get behind it, though would be silly for lowbies, so again, cap. But for real, they're probably not willing to do that, so: More cap Dourhand shenanigans with Brathar back in their origin lands and a decent Dourhand backstory, maybe some lost kingdom of the Dourhand - with some connection to Nogrod/Belegost and First Age, this could be a nice story like with Motsog (maybe Blue-crag remnants being used by Brathar, they didn't really take part in the war after being driven off early back in that storyline)

I don't see them putting such high level zones right next to a starter zone, especially when the path into the northern Erid Luin is a stone's throw from Thorin's Hall. And I'm guessing Brathar is going to be dead-la-dead after the Carn Dum instance stuff. I also think you overestimate how desotryed they would have to make them. Dwarven craft is incredibly resilient.

[provamail10]

This all said - I feel like this line of discussion has co-opted the original intention of this thread. I heartily encourage this discussion to continue either in new thread, or in the Bullroarer sub-forum and allow the speculation regarding the future landscapes to continue here unburdened by circular discussions of present landscapes.

I completely second Scenario's words, and I'd like to ask him his own guesses about which regions will include Gondor's revamp.

[TesalionLortus]

I'm not even sure whether Thafal-gathol is even on the table. It would be nice if it was just a legend and a place never found, after all. Yet still, there was that mysterious disappearance of all these dwarves (supposedly). So no idea. Well, Forodwaith is a huge area. But geographically, it kinda makes it more attractive to do this in Eriador, by including a part of Forochel near the Bay too... and do some icebergs. I guess they could come up with some Hobgoblin migration West, in that case? After what happened to Hrimil and in Gundabad

probably be some instanced area for some quests in Harondor, like the islands off of Dol Amroth are

Well, with boats they can do much more, and it wouldn't be instaced. They could also have ships now on waters, with NPCs on them for quests, so that's a game changer too - you can actually have some content on water, one way or another

Don't think they'd want to place a level 160+ zone between two early game level 50 zones.

I don't see them putting such high level zones right next to a starter zone, especially when the path into the northern Erid Luin is a stone's throw fro, Thorin's Hall.

Depends on where, if the action would be Ered Luin more around Lindon and on Lindon's side, then it's pretty isolated. You would be also able to make pretty isolated passes from Carn Dum/Angmar and maybe North Downs (and that wouldn't be much different than having Maur Tulhau with extra aggroed lvl 60+ mobs launching at you from afar feed into Swanfleet ... as it is currently).

And I'm guessing Brathar is going to be dead-la-dead after the Carn Dum instance stuff.

Well, that would be a massive giant waste, but we shall see... and to address some of MoL's earlier remarks on that front... yes, not like that! I would welcome a decent end or continuation to long awaited pressing story threads and mystery characters we've been waiting for for many many years already (Corudan!!! for example), not a quickly paced disappointing (that doesn't delve into much) end to the ones they've just introduced and made seem interesting

[Arnand_the_Fox]

I'm not even sure whether Thafal-gathol is even on the table. It would be nice if it was just a legend and a place never found, after all. Yet still, there was that mysterious disappearance of all these dwarves (supposedly). So no idea. Well, Forodwaith is a huge area. But geographically, it kinda makes it more attractive to do this in Eriador, by including a part of Forochel near the Bay too... and do some icebergs. I guess they could come up with some Hobgoblin migration West, in that case? After what happened to Hrimil and in Gundabad

IMO Icebergs are visually interesting for all of about 5 seconds, and then I'm moving on to literally anything else.

Thafar-gathol may not be on the table, but it makes sense to me they would use it. So far, pretty much everything we've seen/heard about the "Nameless" threat involves the Dwarves in some way. From Moria to Jarnfast, its mostly been Dwarf related. Ditto with the earthquakes which have been felt from the middle of the Misty Mountains, across the Grey Mountains, and into the Iron Hills. I can't really think of a more appropriate place for the leader of the Nameless to be than in said mountains, and barring some SUPAH SEKRET area of Moria being unveiled, having it be in Thafar-Gathol would make the most sense.

Tying it into the Minstrel prophecy, why everyone who searches for it keeps vanishing, the one dwarf who did supposedly come back from it being crazy, etc. would all tie together nicely. But Thafar-Gathol is supposed to be in the Grey Mountains, which limits where exactly it can be since the Grey Mountains aren't exactly very wide in LOTRO.

I legit struggle to think of where else SSG would put Throkhâr The Hunger on the game map. Slapping them in Rhun, or Harad, wouldn't really fit with what we've gotten with the story so far. And Mordor is kinda crowded as the "here be the badguys" land

[Scenario]

I completely second Scenario's words, and I'd like to ask him his own guesses about which regions will include Gondor's revamp.

Any information I have to offer wouldn't be speculation.

[lockecd]

This space is not, from the narrative perspective, a distinct and different space. It is meant to be a re-imagining of Carn Dum, built in the manners we would build it today knowing what we know now of how to build city structures. It is, if you will, a "remastering" of the space to show off the potential of what we can accomplish within our current engine and modern design sensibilities.

A few posts back, someone mentioned something to the effect that the original Carn Dum was "built by video game devs to make a video game space" and that is very true. When we built the original Carn Dum, for many of us, it was our first game design rodeo. It's super gamey and a menagerie of Angmar which feels like an exercise in whether or not we could, as opposed to whether or not we should (from the design sense).

We want to be sensitive to the nostalgia people feel for the original instance, and for that reason and just the sheer effort of implementation and testing, the original version will not be retrofitted with this look.

I am so happy to hear this!!

[TesalionLortus]

IMO Icebergs are visually interesting for all of about 5 seconds, and then I'm moving on to literally anything else.

To each their own, but it's surely something different and the devs wanna tap into new things, no? Whereas around Erebor would be just more of the same and repeat of dwarves

I legit struggle to think of where else SSG would put Throkhâr The Hunger on the game map. Slapping them in Rhun, or Harad, wouldn't really fit with what we've gotten with the story so far. And Mordor is kinda crowded as the "here be the badguys" land

This is such a mysterious - that haven't even been properly introduced yet, mind you - story angle that I have no way of predicting anything Could be anywhere and by anywhere that also means a Void connection from anywhere but Throkhar is in this Realm of the Nameless or something like that. I doubt it's somehow geologically accurate in the immediate surroundings of these tremors. That's more the work of his mindless lackeys stirring up though who knows what happened in Rhun itself, clearly something more unique. If it's physical, you might as well say, based on this, that Throkhar is under Orocarni

Speaking of Nameless, I recently realized there was also this mysterious "Was Pughlak's den once a shrine of the Nameless?" in the instance at the end. Totally forgot about it. That's interesting because you can clearly see a broken relic, similar to the ones used in old Moria instances. Are these old dwarven supposed to keep them contained to specific spaces? And they can't circumvent that with their Void portals? Or something?