On the matter of Incentivization - for Players

[SSG_Orion]

Rather than adding these weekly quests, could you perhaps just revise the token of valour chests to dispense these 3 reward packs based on which tier of quest we turn in? There's already 3 tiers of token quests, and they dispense level 105 junk currently. Seems like a no-brainer way to modernize their rewards, plus you avoid having to create new quests. Not sure how it would dispense renown, maybe just add some tyrant lashes in there. I haven't creeped in forever so I forget if there's a similar quest on creepside.

Nope. There are simply too many tokens of valour to make this happen.

[SSG_Orion]

It’s so cool you want to incentivize players to play on the moors! However, I think that another thing that would help is improving the scaling for lower level freeps to level cap. I wanted to try out playing as a freep on the moors, having felt that my monster player was making painstaking progression and was very weak in general and always getting squashed by single freeps just riding through while I was killing norbogs minding my own business (and the lack of players to join up with in the moors didn’t help lol). Unfortunately, as my highest character is level 47, when I first went into the moors, I was sadly introduced to the reality that the scaling to level 140 did not help at all, and I was crushed worse by the creep I met than I had ever been by genuine level 140 players coming through when I was playing my creep. I would feel more incentivized to play if I could play both my creep and my creep when I felt like it, instead of being bound to play my creep if I wanted any sort of success. So yeah, better scaling should definitely be on the list of incentives.

It's not really the focus of this thread, but I will say that we have some ideas around this. It is not likely that there will ever be a "perfect solution" for up-leveled characters in the Ettenmoors. But, we do think we have a nifty possible solution that will take a little longer to prove and implement. More on that, when we get closer to what it might be.

[Daec]

The tasks, introduced last year, to kill players anywhere would also contribute to ensure that the specific locale kill quests were not necessary.

Can the task item persist after completion? For creeps with an upcoming 1m grams map it isn't so bad, probably more burdensome after the other map changes, but freeps GV map is 30m still. Regardless, for both sides having the task item persist until say you complete the cap stone quest for the series (think its 15?) would be nice.

Even if it isn't the goal of the rewards, having the keep quests converted into ones for the whole zone would be nice

[SSG_Orion]

Option 1 - probably not feasible because so many existing players will absolutely hate it. A fresh start pvmp zone. Perhaps a clone of the Moors. No existing ranks or gear allowed. Perhaps a Treebeard type of slow progress to keep it that way for a while. Maybe with rank caps going gradually up - call it a progression pvmp zone.

This would splinter the existing population further, not a likely scenario.

Option 2 - similar concept but less likely to cannibalize the current activities in the Moors. Limited availability rather than (or in addition to) progression features. Maybe available once a week. Maybe available like festival zones are - once a month the Moors "festival" becomes active for a week.

There are already plans for something like this to start occurring in the Ettenmoors on a more regular basis.

[Aeviternus]

Great addition to PvMP. I hope you will consider increasing the VXP reward. This would not only make the game more alt-friendly, it would also give PvE players an incentive to play PvMP.

Additionally, perhaps consider adding Enhancement Runes as a reward. That way PvMP players can actually upgrade their LIs by playing PvMP.

[SSG_Orion]

Maybe make the quest to take the keeps (TR / TA / Lugz / LC or whatever) and hold it for an hour. Each one with a different counter so if you lose TA, the opposing sides clock starts counting and you need to go recapture it and the clock starts over you on TA while the other keeps continue counting down.

While something like this would be possible, it would also force players to stay online for the duration, given the way that we would need to track the events in the quest system. So this option, while a very good thought, is not technically feasible.

[SSG_Orion]

Please pardon me for commenting on this topic for I do not frequent the Ettenmoors and lack any measure of talent required to flourish in such a place. Yet, I do read all of Mister Orien's posts and this one caused me to ponder a curious question: How would I motivate someone such as myself to become involved in the Ettenmoors?

During times of war, when able bodied men march off to defend their country, those who remain behind do not remain idle. It is very common for the artisans, workers, and women to supply such an army. A number of quests in The Wastes reflect this process. In World War II, the character Rosie the Riveter embodied this idea of the home front supplying the war front.

What if player characters could supply provisions and supplies to fighters in the Ettenmoors, causing the Free Peoples to gain some advantage?

This creates a problem, for monster players have no potential pool of non-combat player characters to supply them. Such a system would quickly grow lopsided. To balance things, perhaps the server could track the sum total of player character defeats each week. As player characters are defeated, this would embolden monster players, causing them to become more powerful. Players such as myself could then craft provisions and supplies, representing the ability to feed and heal those injured player characters, erasing the monster player advantage. Both player character defeats and provision production will naturally rise or fall based on server population, so if the right multiplicative coefficient were found, they would naturally balance.

The suggestion above could become a part of the upcoming crafting update, giving every player on the server a reason to assist, directly or indirectly, with the Ettenmoors.

Player characters who provide provisions and supplies for the Ettenmoors would not gain Commendations or any other currencies associated with fighting in that region. Instead, they would gain quartermaster ranks and spoils of war. Quartermaster ranks could work like Ettenmoors ranks, with 15 tiers, and go before the player character's name. With enough effort, a player character could become the Quartermaster General. I leave it to others to decide what spoils of war would look like.

Thank you for your consideration and good luck with your efforts to revitalize the Ettenmoors. I sincerely hope those efforts ultimately succeed and bring much happiness.

I love the thought that went into this. Thank you. It inspires a quick story time with old man, Orion.

Back in the, proverbial, day, Ettenmoors efforts had a direct impact on the game world outside. When the forces of evil were winning a pall cast over the world and had a truly MINOR impact on the game world. When the force of good were winning there was another MINOR buff that spread across the game world. Players on the whole hated this aspect of the system.

Now, you may wonder why I would equate your idea with this anecdote of LotRO history. If, we did something, like this it would make more sense to bring that aspect of the system back. Or, create an area of the world where this was felt.

[Nanganark]

I'm not sold on the infamy/renown rewards, but in the grand scheme an extra 3k/week isn't huge so its not something i would throw a fit about. The increased comms i like a lot, for max tier reward getting enough to at least buy a piece of jewelry would be nice, which is 6k comms unless i'm mistaken?

For me, Infamy/Renown is about the smaller servers so they can move forward too.

Could also look like this:

- Reward Pack 3:
Infamy/Renown: 4'000
Commendations: 2'000
Virtue XP: 1'000
Legendary Item XP: ~250'000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 15x Enhancement Runes (Incomp)

- Reward Pack 2:
Infamy/Renown: 5'000
Commendations: 4'000
Virtue XP: 1'500
Legendary Item XP: ~420'000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 20x Enhancement Runes (Incomp/Legendary)

- Reward Pack 1:
Infamy/Renown: 6'000
Commendations: 6'000
Virtue XP: 3'000
Legendary Item XP: 675,000
Treasure: 1 Pull from Ettenmoors gear, 1 stack of Ettenmoors consumables, 1 pull from Legendary Item: 25x Enhancement Runes (Incomp/Legendary)

That would then probably be too much even for the small servers, as I said are only suggestions.

[SSG_Orion]

Can the task item persist after completion? For creeps with an upcoming 1m grams map it isn't so bad, probably more burdensome after the other map changes, but freeps GV map is 30m still. Regardless, for both sides having the task item persist until say you complete the cap stone quest for the series (think its 15?) would be nice.

Even if it isn't the goal of the rewards, having the keep quests converted into ones for the whole zone would be nice

A few things here:

1. Return to Gramsfoot skill is now on a 1m cooldown
2. New PLAYER to the Ettenmoors tutorial is in for the next BR
3. During that new PLAYER to the Ettenmoors tutorial, they will get a permanent Return to Glân Vraig skill on a 1m cooldown
4. Task item does not persist due to technical limitations
5. Location based kills will NOT be converted to the entire zone for exploitative reasons

[SSG_Orion]

For me, Infamy/Renown is about the smaller servers so they can move forward too.

Bear in mind, that we have just reworked the rewards on all quests in the Ettenmoors to increase the commendation rewards on all quests. Some of those quests also had their infamy/renown updated.

Rank...needs to be looked at.

[Daec]

A few things here:

1. Return to Gramsfoot skill is now on a 1m cooldown
2. New PLAYER to the Ettenmoors tutorial is in for the next BR
3. During that new PLAYER to the Ettenmoors tutorial, they will get a permanent Return to Glân Vraig skill on a 1m cooldown
4. Task item does not persist due to technical limitations
5. Location based kills will NOT be converted to the entire zone for exploitative reasons

Can we pick up multiple task items then so it functions more like a consumable than a unique item, or are there also limitations around that?

[Nanganark]

Bear in mind, that we have just reworked the rewards on all quests in the Ettenmoors to increase the commendation rewards on all quests. Some of those quests also had their infamy/renown updated.

Rank...needs to be looked at.

I'm aware of that, that's why I'm talking about the small servers where not as much goes as on Arkenstone/Evernight, it's really needed on smaller servers unless there's another targeted change coming as far as ranks are concerned, which again I'm fine with, however others won't share the opinion, which isn't a bad thing.

[Denthemen]

Perhaps also having housing rewards to pvmp would interest people. Like yard statue of raid boss or lumber camp palassades. I know there are people that are obsessed with housing...to put it mildly.

Also on a note of map exhaustion, some say they are tired with the map. I know ettens is going to stay and I like it, but for those who don't perhaps, and I don't know if it would be technically possible, to have a rotating summer, winter, fall ettenmoors map. So same map but with seasonal assets and texture. Its crazy how you can change the look of something and it feels it all changed but nothing really has. I don't see that this would change any game mechanic, just a way to always keep it fresh.

[Nanganark]

Perhaps also having housing rewards to pvmp would interest people. Like yard statue of raid boss or lumber camp palassades. I know there are people that are obsessed with housing...to put it mildly.

Also on a note of map exhaustion, some say they are tired with the map. I know ettens is going to stay and I like it, but for those who don't perhaps, and I don't know if it would be technically possible, to have a rotating summer, winter, fall ettenmoors map. So same map but with seasonal assets and texture. Its crazy how you can change the look of something and it feels it all changed but nothing really has. I don't see that this would change any game mechanic, just a way to always keep it fresh.

I would actually love this idea of seasonal Ettenmoors.

[Snowlock]

I love the thought that went into this. Thank you. It inspires a quick story time with old man, Orion.

Back in the, proverbial, day, Ettenmoors efforts had a direct impact on the game world outside. When the forces of evil were winning a pall cast over the world and had a truly MINOR impact on the game world. When the force of good were winning there was another MINOR buff that spread across the game world. Players on the whole hated this aspect of the system.

Now, you may wonder why I would equate your idea with this anecdote of LotRO history. If, we did something, like this it would make more sense to bring that aspect of the system back. Or, create an area of the world where this was felt.

It's a cool idea. A buff to crafting speed or crafting xp or crafting guild xp would be a cool way to tie the "homefront" into the war. They supply us with consumables, our victories make the things they like to do easier and both groups feel like they're participating. Make some moors specific consumables they can craft, and give them titles and housing decorations associated with crafting amounts of them. May be special crafting stations in Ost Ringdir and Hoarhollow with enhanced attributes to bring them out to do their support on the front lines without actually participating in combat... I know it's not in scope of this discussion, but it's a cool idea.

[Degelhil]

I don't think you understand the outrage it would cause if even one BiS item required PvMP. PvMP has always been a completely standalone optional activity- many LotRO players only ever signed up for the game because there is no PVP required in any way. Taking steps to incentivize the Moors is great, but nothing in the game should ever require it.

You might be right about that. However, PvMP once was a premium feature and not everyone could participate. That has changed.

For example, at level 130, there was also a BiS crafting breastplate - so technically this armour required crafting. Also a system that not everyone likes. I don't see a problem here - but I still understand your concerns.

[Neinda]

This would splinter the existing population further, not a likely scenario.


.

It would be nice if you would consider and maybe run a test/pilot of a lower level PVP area. It would serve the purpose of allowing new players to PVP and lower level freeps and creeps an opportunity to learn how PVP works in LOTRO. It would also serve a secondary purpose of setting up a location where people could just have fun and PVP vs. worrying about rank and everything else. In the long run it could possibly increase Moors participation as people would have the opportunity to learn the ropes without the massive farms of lowbies that happen these days. Please consider a test of this concept.

[Hilawolf]

It would be nice if you would consider and maybe run a test/pilot of a lower level PVP area. It would serve the purpose of allowing new players to PVP and lower level freeps and creeps an opportunity to learn how PVP works in LOTRO. It would also serve a secondary purpose of setting up a location where people could just have fun and PVP vs. worrying about rank and everything else. In the long run it could possibly increase Moors participation as people would have the opportunity to learn the ropes without the massive farms of lowbies that happen these days. Please consider a test of this concept.

Everyone starts out as clueless and mostly hapless in the Moors. To me, your Moors experience is really formed by the people you group with. Find a tribe/kin that matches the experience you want to engage in. There are super casual groups all the way up to 'hardcore'. Just turn off OOC.

[MedianThrol]

Yes, it could. It could also make the Ettenmoors the primary avenue for gaining Virtue XP - which is something that we, honestly, do not really want. Options are better than something that is markedly better than anything else.

I will gladly give a feedback how much Virtue XP i needed to max out all my characters from level 84 to 85 next week, i need worth lots of month of reward packs as proposed here. But maybe you should run those numbers too, to see if a big amount of virtue xp is really that bad to the character progression.
For me the virtue system is a bit flawed, who reaches all max virtues on a character by just deeding? And once they do, what was this time investment? Well but that is another topic, this here is about ettenmoors rewards. Maybe all virtue XP systems need a little bump up then.

If they pulled insanely well it could be up to 104 gold traceries. From our standpoint, that is really high.

Well if someone pulled 0 in 1 year, it will leave a bad taste too. Just wanted to mention, less rng is better than going full rng.
Gacha games give you at least a pity roll which will grant you a golden item every X pulls (Often 80 or 100).
I would just give out a currency and let ppl pick their reward. Even if they gotta save up for a month or 2, better than rolling and loosing. In my case every teal and violet tracery will land in the shredder, sadly, because we cant even convert them to a golden version. On top of all the useless golden traceries that occupy like 40 slots in my storage because we cant change them.



Props to the person that brought up the glain treasure chests with 105er loot, you could just reuse that system and give it a purpose again too.

[SSG_Orion]

Can we pick up multiple task items then so it functions more like a consumable than a unique item, or are there also limitations around that?

Limitations, sadly.

Completing the quest once would consume them all.

[ScoobySnackz]

Yes why don't you add a tier 3 raid and a 6 man and couple 3 mans aswell...smh

It's a PvP zone..for PvP, if people want to be incentivized, they can do what we have been doing for years, go kill the other side.

People who despise/dislike PvMP, arent coming out to PvP, so you can can the incentive take.

If it were upto me, I'd remove all the quest rewards out there now.

[Neinda]

Everyone starts out as clueless and mostly hapless in the Moors. To me, your Moors experience is really formed by the people you group with. Find a tribe/kin that matches the experience you want to engage in. There are super casual groups all the way up to 'hardcore'. Just turn off OOC.

This is a great idea on paper. The problem in the Moors these days are the farming groups that only exist to annihilate low level freeps and creeps. For whatever reason there are some people in game who bounce from server to server looking for people to destroy and crowing about it in OOC. They take the fun out of PVP. A lower level area where people are capped on rank and level would serve the purpose of being mostly for PVP and the farmers would get little to no gain. My concern about the incentives being displayed is that this will just be used to farm creeps, get their weekly rewards and go back to PVE. The rewards need to be limited to Moors use only in my opinion in order to give the creeps a chance at PVP. The low level PVP zones were outstanding and always busy in Dark Age of Camelot. If fact the lowest level zone "Thidranki" (SP) was always active. It was an area for fun and PVP. Those interested in rank farming had very little to gain in the low areas. I would be perfectly happy to be rank and level capped if it meant actual PVP and fewer farmers in the area. Let the farmers go to the high level areas and do their farming and move on. Let those interested in actual PVP have an area for PVP. A area that was dedicated to PVP would be an incentive to go back to the Moors and the game.

[Vilan]

Nope. There are simply too many tokens of valour to make this happen.

Then have quests drop a new "Token of Renown" instead so everybody starts from zero. Making tokens of valour worthless shouldn't bother too many people, they're already pretty close to worthless. Maybe make them disenchantable into a few comms to cut down on the number of torches and pitchforks heading your way if you're worried about it.

[Aeviternus]

Yes why don't you add a tier 3 raid and a 6 man and couple 3 mans aswell...smh

It's a PvP zone..for PvP, if people want to be incentivized, they can do what we have been doing for years, go kill the other side.

People who despise/dislike PvMP, arent coming out to PvP, so you can can the incentive take.

If it were upto me, I'd remove all the quest rewards out there now.

Do you really understand so little about the design of the zone? It sounds like you'd be content to just shuffle back and forth from GV or Grams to the nearest keep all day long. Many people do not actually enjoy that. But there is no alternative, because there is no one else to be found on other parts of the map. Hence, an incentive has to be created to make people use others parts of the map. This is the way to do that. If done correctly, it should improve the quality of PvMP. PvE isn't the goal. It's the means to an end. Would've thought that's quite clear.

[gildhur]

What if player characters could supply provisions and supplies to fighters in the Ettenmoors, causing the Free Peoples to gain some advantage?

And what about Creeps? There is no system outside the Moors whereby players could engage in activities that would benefit Creeps in the Moors. It would certainly be lore-breaking for our main characters to be intentionally aiding Angmar in that way. So while it's a brilliant idea in theory, it would necessarily be entirely one-sided in practice.