So the up coming new class is Corsair?

[Radhruin_EU]

Do you consider people from Far Harad also Haradrim, because I don't. It'd seem to me they are talking about Near Harad only.

Well you're mistaken there, because Haradrim or Southrons is an umbrella term just like Easterlings is. They're a diverse bunch, just like the Easterlings are.

Also, Elessar himself has created diplomatic missions to attempt to make peace with Harad. You're telling me this never happened before in the history of Gondor? Where does it state that explicitly?

Err, hello, that's after Sauron is out of the way.

Harondor is technically South Gondor, so it does border Near Harad. The Harnen is the natural border between them. Mordor still has the Ered Lithui that has only 2 main passes we know, both of which are far in the north, so you're saying he controls these regions primarily with flying beasts or encamped armies?

Nope, because Gondor had lost control of Harondor during the Kin-strife and had never got it back. The Harnen wais the former border, the effective border being the Anduin because that was as far as Gondor's writ went. Much the same as they'd lost control of Ithilien and had had to abandon it because the place couldn't be secured.

[TesalionLortus]

When MoL or whoever writes it, then that's the game doing its thing. When you do it, that's not the same and you claiming to be doing what the game does really doesn't cut it. They're not the ones trying to come up with a rationale for playable Haradrim.

What? I literally just said the devs could do it and that they've already done that sort of thing not once not twice. Obviously I'm not the dev, I was just talking about plausibility of what the devs can do...

The place is 'debatable'. Like Ithilien, which it borders onto. Nobody owns it, it's indefensible and so it's not safe to live there. Gondor's the other side of the Anduin, which that far down its course would be a huge Danube-like river. South Gondor is basically a buffer zone. You might reasonably expect a certain amount of skirmishing, like maybe there were some Rangers of Harondor akin to those in Ithilien, keeping tabs on what the Haradrim are up to and pushing back if they try to set up shop there.

The problem I had with what you said was that it involved a faction of Haradrim being friendly with Gondor when it's a given that there'd never been friendship.

You don't have any idea what's it's like in this game's interpretation yet, none. I only said it might have involved a faction of Haradrim at some point of history and there was clearly a long period, with things happening. That you can only imagine that there could only ever be a desolated buffer zone there, static from point A to X on the timeline, with just some skirmishes and not one local ever... rather than the place becoming what it is today gradually, well... that's something that I find strange and I'm pretty sure the devs aren't as inflexible.

As for the diversity I don't think it's for any real reason other than "it's a game".

Then why are there darker skinned NPCs and background NPCs but there aren't any in Bree... It's clearly not just a game thing, though it might go two ways: given whether they have a reasoning prepared behind it or just did it at random. I argued they probably had a reasoning that they may yet explore.

He's providing a sense of a living world but it's really just an impression; he was all about languages and history of the 'kings and battles' variety but he wasn't into politics. That becomes obvious if you compare it with novels that try to create realistic societies. Mundane details are realistic because that's compelling but there are a host of behind-the-scenes things that are glossed over or weirdly absent. Some places are believable: Rohan or Dunland, for example, because they're patterned after real societies but the Shire and Bree are weird. But the main thing is how relatively static things stay even over really long periods of time; that suits the story's needs but it isn't realistic.

You stated the exact same thing I did, just in different words. So no, it wasn't Tolkien's intention for all things to be static and unrealistic, he just wasn't into some of them and didn't bother to write much about them (like the politics you mentioned). That's far from "realistic doesn't belong here!" It does belong and nothing wrong with it.

It's not that hard, you have networks of informers and a crafty spymaster to run the show (much like Varys does in GoT), and that's something that crops up time and again in history. Ancient Rome would be a particular case in point. If you want something more Harad-flavoured, then the Ottoman Empire had plenty of spies and informers as well.

Varys was focused on specific goals in mind and monitoring affairs of interest, not enforcing North Korea type of ruleset globally across the entire Westeros, huge city and village alike, with a spy at every crossing and forest.

[Radhruin_EU]

You don't have any idea what's it's like in this game's interpretation yet, none. I only said it might have involved a faction of Haradrim at some point of history and there was clearly a long period, with things happening. That you can only imagine that there could only ever be a desolated buffer zone there, static from point A to X on the timeline, with just some skirmishes and not one local ever... rather than the place becoming what it is today gradually, well... that's something that I find strange and I'm pretty sure the devs aren't as inflexible.

And nor do you. If you've got borderlands or marches that can't be held because they haven't got the manpower they used to have due to their decline, what do you imagine them doing? Real empires have lost provinces permanently for similar reasons. You could have a story where they *attempted* to take it back but it doesn't stick, so the fact that they never succeeded in getting it back doesn't mean it was absolutely static. It had been fought over more than once.

Besides, all this is ancient history. Seems to be a lot of fuss to make over something that'd largely be of only academic interest. (Also makes me wonder how much of this is actually your idea and how much is being 'borrowed' from MERP).

Then why are there darker skinned NPCs and background NPCs but there aren't any in Bree... It's clearly not just a game thing, though it might go two ways: given whether they have a reasoning prepared behind it or just did it at random. I argued they probably had a reasoning that they may yet explore.

Because they used the Umbar link as an excuse to do that. It certainly isn't lore, which absolutely makes it a game thing.

You stated the exact same thing I did, just in different words. So no, it wasn't Tolkien's intention for all things to be static and unrealistic, he just wasn't into some of them and didn't bother to write much about them (like the politics you mentioned). That's far from "realistic doesn't belong here!" It does belong and nothing wrong with it.

Your idea of 'realistic' is highly selective. Really it's used sporadically for effect and it's more of a semblance than a commitment. And the funny thing is how you try to apply your idea of realism to Sauron as if he's just some mortal dictator who has to rely solely on mundane methods rather than a supernatural, immortal one with some extra nasty tricks up his sleeve.

Varys was focused on specific goals in mind and monitoring affairs of interest, not enforcing North Korea type of ruleset globally across the entire Westeros, huge city and village alike, with a spy at every crossing and forest.

And Sauron would focus on his goal: control. He's meant to have a penchant for that, remember? Regardless of you blathering on about North Korea or whatever when that's mentioned. Being immortal he had plenty of time to engage in social engineering to bind his vassal peoples to him, and could engage in every means of social control in the book, up to and including religion.

[k40rne]

Well you're mistaken there, because Haradrim or Southrons is an umbrella term just like Easterlings is. They're a diverse bunch, just like the Easterlings are.

Haradrim is not the equivalent of Southron or Easterling. The other 2 are entirely generic designating a direction, not a region (it's a bit like saying Oriental or Occidental meaning of the east or of the west). Haradrim is not generic in the same sense. Harad has a culture (Haradrim translates to the people from Harad literally & yes I understand Harad derives from a word for the South, same as Rhun does of the East.), but as I said I'll assume this is more about near Harad, than Far Harad, since these seem like 2 distinct cultures, although TBF not much was written about either of them.

It's a bit like in cultural anthropology, we call Incas & Mayas those names, but these are only generic.

Norte Chico Civilization (3000 BC to 1800 BC) ...
Chavin (900 BC to 200 BC) ...
Paracas (700 BC to 200 AD) ...
Nazca (100 AD to 800 AD) ...
Moche (100 AD to 800 AD) ...
Tiahuanaco (300 AD to 1000 AD) ...
Huari (800 AD to 900 AD) ...
Chimu (900 AD to 1476 AD)

Are their true names, but collectively we know them as Incas. These are tribes, not dynasties too.

Nope, because Gondor had lost control of Harondor during the Kin-strife and had never got it back. The Harnen wais the former border, the effective border being the Anduin because that was as far as Gondor's writ went. Much the same as they'd lost control of Ithilien and had had to abandon it because the place couldn't be secured.

You do know we can see a city & many buildings in the distance from the South end of South Ithilien along that entire border stretching from the Harad road to the cliffs just south of Bar Hurin. I think this area may be called Southguard, but I'm not sure who exactly came up with that name. it might not be Tolkienien.

But I doubt they let Harondor lie closed off for a millennia, even if the Gondorian stewards decided it. I guess we'll eventually see what path SSG takes, but there is definitely a lot more room to manoeuvre than you pre-suppose.

[VanguardIV]

isn't this thread meant to be about a new class in a game called LOTRO?

They are technically still discussing it. Cord already said it won't be called Corsair tho.

At this point its more of the idea of having a race which could influence the new class being a Corsair but not called that. So let's say Mariner but it looks like a Corsair but is named differently. But some are against the idea which tbf them, they do want the game to remain to his/her vision of it. altho Beornings, Brawlers and Rune-keepers pretty much broke that already.

In the Beta they did find a Cutlass and Stiletto LI, I think GhynGhyn showed it. So it definitely seems to be leaning in that direction.

All I can say is: more power to SSG. The Brawler was fun and felt fluid. Wonder how this one will play out, and if its Corsair based, then sure.

[VanguardIV]

Have to agree here. I totally get it when a writer puts pen to paper in absolutes, exact and concise detail - that straying from that is not something that should happen, and when reading a book, a reader usually won't imagine anything other than the concise detail.

But where writers skip details or absolutes, that opens up the readers mind to explore. Imagination kicks in and what unfolds can be entirely different from one reader to the next. Many different outcomes are possible.

That's the beauty of a book, over a film or game.

In my own head, I don't see Corsairs running around Middle-earth mixing with Free Peoples from the writing. I could possibly see a seafarer take on a life on land in my head, but not in the game for some reason. What other readers imagine could, and probably will, differ.

This.

Plus, I got to imagine the headcannon ppl now have for a hobbit lore master lol

[DavidmeetHal]

All I can say is: more power to SSG. The Brawler was fun and felt fluid. Wonder how this one will play out, and if its Corsair based, then sure.

Agreed 100%. I'm actually looking forward to this.

[VanguardIV]

Agreed 100%. I'm actually looking forward to this.

That we just got the Brawler recently, makes me hope that they continue this trend when designing new classes. As long as they can make it feel different in gameplay (I think GhynGhyn found something about a combo code in the beta?) than this new one for Umbar has potential.

Plus it looks good on LOTRO that even after so many years they're still releasing new classes (while maintaining quality control ofc)

[Radhruin_EU]

Haradrim is not the equivalent of Southron or Easterling. The other 2 are entirely generic designating a direction, not a region (it's a bit like saying Oriental or Occidental meaning of the east or of the west). Haradrim is not generic in the same sense. Harad has a culture (Haradrim translates to the people from Harad literally & yes I understand Harad derives from a word for the South, same as Rhun does of the East.), but as I said I'll assume this is more about near Harad, than Far Harad, since these seem like 2 distinct cultures, although TBF not much was written about either of them.

No, rightly speaking Haradrim is a blanket term as I said and synonymous with Southrons; it's just the Elvish translation of that. It's a generic name used in the West, it's manifestly not what they call themselves and unlike with the Easterlings, Tolkien doesn't give us names of individual peoples. That's a generally agreed point, a well-known bit of lore.

But I doubt they let Harondor lie closed off for a millennia, even if the Gondorian stewards decided it. I guess we'll eventually see what path SSG takes, but there is definitely a lot more room to manoeuvre than you pre-suppose.

Nobody said closed off. Like Ithilien isn't closed off as such either but it wasn't a safe place to be and nobody lived there any more. More of a classic case of if you go there you're on your own, and nobody's going to go looking for you if you don't come back. You'd have to go back about fourteen hundred years or so to see the place in its prime, before the Kin-strife and its aftermath screwed things up. And following on from that, the plague ravaged Gondor and greatly reduced its population so they simply didn't have the manpower to hold some of their lands any more. It's a classic decline, the hits just kept coming. Next up after that was the Wainriders and the huge joint attack they and the Haradrim made on Gondor a couple of centuries later. And more after that as well, over the centuries. if there's one constant in all of that, it's that Harondor was the way the Haradrim came when they wanted to have a go at Gondor so especially with Ithilien having been lost comparatively recently (sixty-something years previously), it's obvious that it'd be no place to be. (And most recently it would have had whole armies of Haradrim crossing it on their way to Mordor).

[TesalionLortus]

You could have a story where they *attempted* to take it back but it doesn't stick, so the fact that they never succeeded in getting it back doesn't mean it was absolutely static. It had been fought over more than once.

Which was... my entire point. That it was never static, things happened and different scenarios could be included as part of such events.

(Also makes me wonder how much of this is actually your idea and how much is being 'borrowed' from MERP).

Actually, I don't really know much about MERP.

Because they used the Umbar link as an excuse to do that. It certainly isn't lore, which absolutely makes it a game thing.

Game lore - not just "a game thing" Anyway, where was it said the excuse was Umbar ?

And the funny thing is how you try to apply your idea of realism to Sauron as if he's just some mortal dictator who has to rely solely on mundane methods rather than a supernatural, immortal one with some extra nasty tricks up his sleeve.

And Sauron would focus on his goal: control. He's meant to have a penchant for that, remember? Regardless of you blathering on about North Korea or whatever when that's mentioned. Being immortal he had plenty of time to engage in social engineering to bind his vassal peoples to him, and could engage in every means of social control in the book, up to and including religion.

So how would that work then and be as effective as you say it is? The answer "it doesn't need to be explained because it's supernatural it's Sauron!" is not accepted. In this game we're actually delving into such details not leave them out. Religion, social engineering and fearmongering are very much realistic MUNDANE methods of control, but being immortal or having supernatural magics and aura about him doesn't exactly make him capable of exerting that kind of control over entire populations you're talking about without having access to modern tools of social engineering. Frankly, this is also the reason why in the game version he tried to mess with the Vandassari through sorcery and bind all these people to himself while also forcing them to be perfectly unified so they could become much more useful force that he could use. He wouldn't even need to bother with it if he had such a perfect control over these nations and its people at every level of the social ladder you assume he has. Your idea of Sauron's control is way out of proportions here. Especially if it relies mostly on his vassals (under normal circumstances, no Vandassari) which realistically can't be as effective and all-encompassing, not without modern social engineering methods. But if it's so effective because it's somewhat supernatural, how does it work then, and why wouldn't it work on other nations at all?

[Radhruin_EU]

Which was... my entire point. That it was never static, things happened and different scenarios could be included as part of such events.

Different scenarios when? All that was in the past.

Game lore - not just "a game thing" Anyway, where was it said the excuse was Umbar ?

Of course something that's purely game lore and differs from Tolkien is a game thing - what else could it be? Anyway, this was discussed years ago when it became a thing. If it weren't for their historical links with Umbar there'd be no justification for it at all.

So how would that work then and be as effective as you say it is? The answer "it doesn't need to be explained because it's supernatural it's Sauron!" is not accepted. In this game we're actually delving into such details not leave them out. Religion, social engineering and fearmongering are very much realistic MUNDANE methods of control, but being immortal or having supernatural magics and aura about him doesn't exactly make him capable of exerting that kind of control over entire populations you're talking about without having access to modern tools of social engineering. Frankly, this is also the reason why in the game version he tried to mess with the Vandassari through sorcery and bind all these people to himself while also forcing them to be perfectly unified so they could become much more useful force that he could use. He wouldn't even need to bother with it if he had such a perfect control over these nations and its people at every level of the social ladder you assume he has. Your idea of Sauron's control is way out of proportions here. Especially if it relies mostly on his vassals (under normal circumstances, no Vandassari) which realistically can't be as effective and all-encompassing, not without modern social engineering methods. But if it's so effective because it's somewhat supernatural, how does it work then, and why wouldn't it work on other nations at all?

Sauron is meant to be a direct threat in that respect because he'd made a special study of how to dominate Men and bend them to his will - not just some vague lurking presence in the Dark Tower who never actually does anything, but someone who actively stirs up hate and prevails upon their despotic leaders to do his bidding, and they in turn use typical despotic means (bolstered with sorcery, as they've got sorcerers in their employ) to whip their own people into line. That's why it's nasty being within Sauron's dominions, because it's toxic and oppressive and people who step out of line would be cruelly punished for it. Stop going on about modern this and that as if that's the only means of brutal control there is going. Religion, for example, would be very different when the being you think of as a god is right there, incarnate and terrifyingly powerful. One look at the Dark Tower was enough to impress upon people what Sauron was all about and strike fear into their hearts because it was such a profound statement of his power and his will to dominate.

Nobody said anything about perfect control, so do stop strawmanning at every turn. It's just that you're way too casual about how easy it'd be to go against all that, a power that had been manipulating them for millennia and countless generations, feeding them propaganda about how the Free Peoples are their enemies who'd (ironically) conquer and enslave them if they could (with it being easy to point back to the former rule of Umbar by Gondor as something they'd chafed against and had wanted to overthrow, and wouldn't want to return). And because the ruling class was corrupt, heavily invested in Sauron's regime and with every reason to keep things that way to preserve their own status and power, they'd rule with an iron fist. Not so great for the common people, and society would be riddled with informers so that people would be frightened of speaking out, and the regime would make a grisly example out of people who were caught doing that (History is replete with hideously cruel ways for a regime to publicly execute people who've dared speak out or whatever, so we wouldn't even have to make them up).

The reason this doesn't work on other nations 'as if by magic' (not that I ever suggested it did) was that Sauron needs to win their leaders over to his cause by corrupting them first, or overthrow their current leader and replace them with someone who's been corrupted, or use insurgency to destabilise the existing regime to soften it up for a takeover, or have some of his existing allies conquer them and then install rulers who are fully signed up for Team Sauron. Typical evil empire stuff, on steroids because Sauron's of course not just some cruel and despotic emperor, he's immortal so he can play the long game and allow his schemes as much time as they need to come to fruition; and he's had a long time to keep on at this in the east and south. That's why he could mobilise such huge forces, and why if given enough time he could have amassed overwhelming force that he could have used to one-shot Gondor and then roll up the rest of the West like a carpet. We know that from 'The Last Debate' in ROTK, where it's said that trying to hunker down in Gondor wouldn't work as the next army he sent would be even bigger than the last, which they'd barely managed to defeat. If he could do that, then you know his control over his vassals was solid. (Off in the distance, the Blue Wizards might have been doing *something* to try to contest that but all they could do was slow him down enough to give the West a fighting chance, not seriously contest his rule or stop him).

[TesalionLortus]

Different scenarios when? All that was in the past.

Yes, different historical/political events from the past that might have occurred.

Of course something that's purely game lore and differs from Tolkien is a game thing - what else could it be? Anyway, this was discussed years ago when it became a thing. If it weren't for their historical links with Umbar there'd be no justification for it at all.

No, it's an expanded game lore. A "game thing" - since there is no better word for it - would be all these class shenanigans, multiple Beornings running around Bree and such, that's not exactly part of the expanded lore but just a game thing.

Well, I asked when was that ever suggested in the game itself

Sauron is meant to be a direct threat in that respect because he'd made a special study of how to dominate Men and bend them to his will - not just some vague lurking presence in the Dark Tower who never actually does anything, but someone who actively stirs up hate and prevails upon their despotic leaders to do his bidding, and they in turn use typical despotic means (bolstered with sorcery, as they've got sorcerers in their employ) to whip their own people into line. That's why it's nasty being within Sauron's dominions, because it's toxic and oppressive and people who step out of line would be cruelly punished for it. Stop going on about modern this and that as if that's the only means of brutal control there is going. Religion, for example, would be very different when the being you think of as a god is right there, incarnate and terrifyingly powerful. One look at the Dark Tower was enough to impress upon people what Sauron was all about and strike fear into their hearts because it was such a profound statement of his power and his will to dominate.

Nobody said anything about perfect control, so do stop strawmanning at every turn. It's just that you're way too casual about how easy it'd be to go against all that, a power that had been manipulating them for millennia and countless generations, feeding them propaganda about how the Free Peoples are their enemies who'd (ironically) conquer and enslave them if they could (with it being easy to point back to the former rule of Umbar by Gondor as something they'd chafed against and had wanted to overthrow, and wouldn't want to return). And because the ruling class was corrupt, heavily invested in Sauron's regime and with every reason to keep things that way to preserve their own status and power, they'd rule with an iron fist. Not so great for the common people, and society would be riddled with informers so that people would be frightened of speaking out, and the regime would make a grisly example out of people who were caught doing that (History is replete with hideously cruel ways for a regime to publicly execute people who've dared speak out or whatever, so we wouldn't even have to make them up).

The reason this doesn't work on other nations 'as if by magic' (not that I ever suggested it did) was that Sauron needs to win their leaders over to his cause by corrupting them first, or overthrow their current leader and replace them with someone who's been corrupted, or use insurgency to destabilise the existing regime to soften it up for a takeover, or have some of his existing allies conquer them and then install rulers who are fully signed up for Team Sauron. Typical evil empire stuff, on steroids because Sauron's of course not just some cruel and despotic emperor, he's immortal so he can play the long game and allow his schemes as much time as they need to come to fruition; and he's had a long time to keep on at this in the east and south. That's why he could mobilise such huge forces, and why if given enough time he could have amassed overwhelming force that he could have used to one-shot Gondor and then roll up the rest of the West like a carpet. We know that from 'The Last Debate' in ROTK, where it's said that trying to hunker down in Gondor wouldn't work as the next army he sent would be even bigger than the last, which they'd barely managed to defeat. If he could do that, then you know his control over his vassals was solid. (Off in the distance, the Blue Wizards might have been doing *something* to try to contest that but all they could do was slow him down enough to give the West a fighting chance, not seriously contest his rule or stop him).

No strawmanning, you were stubborn that what I said was so unlikely and impossible - with this amazing Sauron's control in mind - that it would not happen, period, and would be super silly if the devs made it happen (which I mentioned wouldn't be silly nor unrealistic at all, if the intro premise was solid). With these three paragraphs you only enforced the point I made that Sauron control relies heavily on his vassals - and mundane means - which means it wouldn't be as effective and in this setting sorcery wouldn't be exactly helpful for mind-control over the populace either. So yes, there isn't much friendship involved, never disputed that - but that alone doesn't mean constrained movement with everyone controlled to a degree that would only be possible in modern era. In these three paragraphs you still didn't manage to explain why a single or two Haradrim from a backyard place or isolated tribe wouldn't be able to cross a border (if they were motivated), something that I and others here pointed out is unlikely to fully control, not even by Sauron and his lackeys.

[Radhruin_EU]

Yes, different historical/political events from the past that might have occurred.

Long ago, and hence of limited relevance to the present day...

No, it's an expanded game lore.

No, it's a game thing to give people more character customisation options. It really doesn't work as lore: if there were some diversity in Gondor from contact with Harad a thousand-plus years ago, and then that contact effectively ceased with the loss of Umbar and the enduring hostility of the Haradrim, then over time that diversity would be absorbed into the wider population and become less and less evident. Especially with the Gondorians intermarrying with the Rohirrim so there was new blood coming from there. If you want realism, why then that'd be realistic and so you've got no real grounds for complaint there.

No strawmanning

Repeatedly twisting what I said into nonsense about modern methods, North Korea etc. when that was in no way required by what I said was exactly that. You can see from my lengthy explanation in my last post what I was getting at all along, the point being that you're far too casual about how easy it'd be for Haradrim (especially any faction within striking distance of Gondor, and hence Mordor as well) to escape the yoke, because Sauron & Co. would watch people near the borders like a hawk, looking for signs of wavering. His whole shtick is effectively a cult and would rely on information control - he needs them to keep the West at arm's length and think of them as enemies, because if there was any friendship whatsoever then people might realise the West was not what they'd been led to believe and that they'd been being lied to. Since this does *not* appear to happen in the book, then whatever means of control he employs must be effective.

Sorcery would come in rather handy as a means of control over people who wouldn't have it and would be terrified of it. People can be scared enough of witches etc. without any real magic at all. And it'd be potentially useful for spying on people; via evil birds like crebain for example (which would also allow for sending messages, thinking about it, like the ravens in GoT but better). They are *not* limited to mundane means. And in any case, we know that mundane means can be all too effective and some nasty magic and evil spirits on top of that would be even better.

[TesalionLortus]

Long ago, and hence of limited relevance to the present day...

Something might have happened 100+ years ago, so not that long ago.

No, it's a game thing to give people more character customisation options.

No, it literally applies to NPCs and soldiers of Gondor, not just player avatars

Repeatedly twisting what I said into nonsense about modern methods, North Korea etc. when that was in no way required by what I said was exactly that.

It's not a strawman nor anything wrong if the comparison was perfectly valid, so it's just you being offended by it because you refuse to acknowledge/talk about it, apparently.

the point being that you're far too casual about how easy it'd be for Haradrim (especially any faction within striking distance of Gondor, and hence Mordor as well) to escape the yoke, because Sauron & Co. would watch people near the borders like a hawk, looking for signs of wavering. His whole shtick is effectively a cult and would rely on information control - he needs them to keep the West at arm's length and think of them as enemies, because if there was any friendship whatsoever then people might realise the West was not what they'd been led to believe and that they'd been being lied to. Since this does *not* appear to happen in the book, then whatever means of control he employs must be effective.

All the while you keep describing the kind of control that heavily reminds me of the one in North Korea (that relies very heavily on people not finding out anything about how life looks like beyond the borders nor being able to cross the border, because if they would the domino would start to fall apart). But it's not even remotely the same and thus Sauron doesn't exactly need to employ "North Korean" model - you said it yourself, there is hatred between those two cultures and history of much bloodshed, it's not just all dependent on whether people will find out something or not. (It's not like Harad is some poorly supplied communist state and an utter hell hole like Mordor for any differences between West/South to be that apparent as long as you're from the "ruling" caste/ethnicity - though it would be more apparent to slaves and castes considered lesser)

And it'd be potentially useful for spying on people; via evil birds like crebain for example (which would also allow for sending messages, thinking about it, like the ravens in GoT but better). They are *not* limited to mundane means. And in any case, we know that mundane means can be all too effective and some nasty magic and evil spirits on top of that would be even better.

The spying birds was this one practical "at the ground level" thing already on my mind and all this time I was curious whether you'll even mention it. They're indeed part of the lore and could be useful for some espionage. Still, I'm really not convinced, that they would have an entire border filled with enough birds to stop some people from crossing over and even then... they wouldn't be able to stop them because the journey it would take for a bird to travel and notify someone... that traveler person might be already gone in some unknown direction. You know, it's not exactly a real time monitoring and distance communication. That's what I mean by bringing up modern methods. Historically, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't exactly find any such "artificially not possible to cross" borders, not pre-modern times anyway, it was not exactly possible to perfectly secure them and monitor every single backyard place and village not to mention forested areas and such

[Radhruin_EU]

Something might have happened 100+ years ago, so not that long ago.

Sure if you want to ignore how strapped they'd become for manpower. By only sixty-something years ago (if I remember rightly) they'd lost Ithilien. (The game has never been realistic about details like that, like for example how there always seem to be more Dwarves for whatever crazy stunt the devs come up with for them to do).

No, it literally applies to NPCs and soldiers of Gondor, not just player avatars

And there are also female guards everywhere, which is utter fail lore-wise. None of that means anything. That's not 'extended lore', just game nonsense ('appealing to a modern audience', as they say).

It's not a strawman nor anything wrong if the comparison was perfectly valid, so it's just you being offended by it because you refuse to acknowledge/talk about it, apparently.

No, just you insisting (for no apparent reason I could see) that what I was saying supposedly required some modern means and me getting sick of that repeated nonsense.

All the while you keep describing the kind of control that heavily reminds me of the one in North Korea (that relies very heavily on people not finding out anything about how life looks like beyond the borders nor being able to cross the border, because if they would the domino would start to fall apart). But it's not even remotely the same and thus Sauron doesn't exactly need to employ "North Korean" model - you said it yourself, there is hatred between those two cultures and history of much bloodshed, it's not just all dependent on whether people will find out something or not. (It's not like Harad is some poorly supplied communist state and an utter hell hole like Mordor for any differences between West/South to be that apparent as long as you're from the "ruling" caste/ethnicity - though it would be more apparent to slaves and castes considered lesser)

Yeah, I know that was your only apparent thought on the subject and you're seemingly fixated on it. Again, if you're someone like Sauron and making a habit of lying to people to foster hatred in them then it's imperative that the skewed version of the world you're peddling to them doesn't get a reality check. Your fanatical followers will reject information that doesn't fit their worldview and double down on what they already believe, but the common people can't be relied on to do that. Sauron would be vulnerable to that if he wasn't careful because his own regime is hellish. The way you deal with that is to keep your people away from outside influences as much as you can, and if someone does break ranks or starts trying to tell people the truth you step on that *hard*. The need to do that isn't confined to communist regimes, that goes for oppressive regimes in general.

Breaking away from something like that would not be easy. Plenty of examples as to why. For starters, spotting malcontents and dealing with them is what all the spies and informers would be for (and nothing modern needed there) and getting from whatever initial spark there might be to a successful breakaway would be one hell of an uphill struggle. Sauron doesn't value human life in the least so trying to rebel would invite the most dreadful reprisals. They see him as a god, remember? Or even if they reject that, he's still a demon in all but name. Now imagine rebelling against a being like that and inviting his wrath upon you and all your people, and that's how terrifying that prospect would be. It'd take something truly extraordinary to get that going and you didn't even bother to suggest how that might happen, you just took it as a given.

The spying birds was this one practical "at the ground level" thing already on my mind and all this time I was curious whether you'll even mention it. They're indeed part of the lore and could be useful for some espionage. Still, I'm really not convinced, that they would have an entire border filled with enough birds to stop some people from crossing over and even then... they wouldn't be able to stop them because the journey it would take for a bird to travel and notify someone... that traveler person might be already gone in some unknown direction. You know, it's not exactly a real time monitoring and distance communication. That's what I mean by bringing up modern methods. Historically, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't exactly find any such "artificially not possible to cross" borders, not pre-modern times anyway, it was not exactly possible to perfectly secure them and monitor every single backyard place and village not to mention forested areas and such

Someone in LOTR thought crebain were actually good for that, remember? A flock of them could cover a lot of ground and that'd be a lot of eyes peering down at the ground, and crows are very smart birds. Not to mention, they get to fly (about 25 mph when just cruising, apparently) and someone on the ground gets to walk at a fraction of that speed. I suppose your guy could hide out during the day and only move at night to avoid those eyes in the sky, but it's already starting to get dicey. If they spotted you they could follow you while some of them went to tell whoever (if this is the usual 'language of birds' Tolkien deal) where you were. What happened next would depend on who they told and how far off they were and all that sort of thing, but regardless that'd be tense, nervous stuff. A little bit of fantasy can go a long way there and it involves nothing other than actual lore. And that's without getting into the sort of nasty sorcery they might go for - statues that keep watch, and evil spirits (wights make a great area-denial device and again, that's real lore). Roving packs of Wargs too, perhaps, as they're way smarter than wolves (you could do things to break your trail and lose them but again, dicey). And that's without even looking at game stuff.

[Phantion]

Agreed 100%. I'm actually looking forward to this.

Agreed. I want a class that actually wields a sword with lighter-on-the-feet style (versus yet another Cappy, Champ, or Guard)- and it sounds like we're heading in that direction

[TesalionLortus]

And there are also female guards everywhere, which is utter fail lore-wise. None of that means anything. That's not 'extended lore', just game nonsense ('appealing to a modern audience', as they say).

Or I could just use your language and tell you I'm tired of this nonsense. But rather than do *just that* and refuse to acknowledge what you said, well.. I don't think it's true because I don't remember armored females in Gondor, even if it happened then probably one or two appearances for some specific quest NPCs, which is why I can't remember. But I do remember darker skinned males.

No, just you insisting (for no apparent reason I could see) that what I was saying supposedly required some modern means and me getting sick of that repeated nonsense.

If that's just nonsense then I find it funny you were still unable to prove one or two dedicated guys wouldn't be able to get through this border blockade and spy networks of yours, and how would any of that work at the practical/resources level, to make sure that you spot everyone and make sure no one got through, ever.

The way you deal with that is to keep your people away from outside influences as much as you can, and if someone does break ranks or starts trying to tell people the truth you step on that *hard*. The need to do that isn't confined to communist regimes, that goes for oppressive regimes in general.

For starters, spotting malcontents and dealing with them is what all the spies and informers would be for (and nothing modern needed there) and getting from whatever initial spark there might be to a successful breakaway would be one hell of an uphill struggle. Sauron doesn't value human life in the least so trying to rebel would invite the most dreadful reprisals. They see him as a god, remember? Or even if they reject that, he's still a demon in all but name. Now imagine rebelling against a being like that and inviting his wrath upon you and all your people, and that's how terrifying that prospect would be. It'd take something truly extraordinary to get that going and you didn't even bother to suggest how that might happen, you just took it as a given.

I never meant any rebels and malcontents trying to start a rebellion in Harad, just a dedicated traveler from some obscure place who wanna reach Gondor at all cost or escaped member of minority group/slave, so I'm not sure why you keep mentioning rebels over and over again.

What happened next would depend on who they told and how far off they were and all that sort of thing, but regardless that'd be tense, nervous stuff. A little bit of fantasy can go a long way there and it involves nothing other than actual lore. And that's without getting into the sort of nasty sorcery they might go for - statues that keep watch, and evil spirits (wights make a great area-denial device and again, that's real lore). Roving packs of Wargs too, perhaps, as they're way smarter than wolves (you could do things to break your trail and lose them but again, dicey). And that's without even looking at game stuff.

You're treating Harondor or Harad like it's outright Mordor with fields of weights, fell spirits, roving wargs with suitable places for their packs and carefully placed Watching-stones like out of Mordor and Angmar. That's totally not what I would think of and Haradrim sorcerers don't strike me like the best sort to sustain and control all these things, not to mention resources needed to organize all this, plus it would totally inconvenience actual army movements. Some crebain flocks would be enough but even then military espionage is most likely, not trying to chase after every single soul they spotted.

[Elebraen]

Agreed. I want a class that actually wields a sword with lighter-on-the-feet style (versus yet another Cappy, Champ, or Guard)- and it sounds like we're heading in that direction

Agreed. Medium armor and a sword is great, but I would like range, too, and stealth. Like a Burglar/Warden, but without the need to chain gambits. I'm more of a button masher when the battle gets hot, not one to stare at my keyboard to make sure I'm hitting the right sequence for the big damage combos. The Guardian Waltz is as much chaining as I'm willing to do.

[SniperCT]

Agreed. I want a class that actually wields a sword with lighter-on-the-feet style (versus yet another Cappy, Champ, or Guard)- and it sounds like we're heading in that direction

I can see this need and agree with it. I've always thought that Champion would be better suited for medium armor, actually. Always wanted something that fit between burglar and champion in terms of gameplay style, but then that's also my go-to in most MMOs* when I'm not playing a tank. In my mind I can see sword and dagger for a swashbuckler class.

*ff14 being an exception as I didn't click with ninja, and my favorite melee DPS classes are the spear class and the scythe class. Though a dual-wield tank would be awesome now that I think about it.

Agreed. Medium armor and a sword is great, but I would like range, too, and stealth. Like a Burglar/Warden, but without the need to chain gambits. I'm more of a button masher when the battle gets hot, not one to stare at my keyboard to make sure I'm hitting the right sequence for the big damage combos. The Guardian Waltz is as much chaining as I'm willing to do.

Another ranged in general would also be good, but I can't actually think of anything off hand. You have a bow/cross bow class, two magic classes, and a scream them to death class. What else is there even that would be unique and interesting enough gameplay wise? You could make it fit various niches (support, heal etc) but what even would it be?

[Elebraen]

I can see this need and agree with it. I've always thought that Champion would be better suited for medium armor, actually. Always wanted something that fit between burglar and champion in terms of gameplay style, but then that's also my go-to in most MMOs* when I'm not playing a tank. In my mind I can see sword and dagger for a swashbuckler class.

*ff14 being an exception as I didn't click with ninja, and my favorite melee DPS classes are the spear class and the scythe class. Though a dual-wield tank would be awesome now that I think about it.




Another ranged in general would also be good, but I can't actually think of anything off hand. You have a bow/cross bow class, two magic classes, and a scream them to death class. What else is there even that would be unique and interesting enough gameplay wise? You could make it fit various niches (support, heal etc) but what even would it be?

lol.. Loremaster & Runekeeper & Minstrel, my friend and I call that tissue paper armor with extremely limited melee because I die all the time if I don't stay ranged. And I would call a Minstrel a third magic class. So that's 3 magic classes with light armor and range, 3 tank classes with heavy armor and melee (Guardian, Captain, Champion), and 3 medium armor classes, but one is melee, one is ranged and one is mixed. I like another mixed, medium armor class that includes stealth.

The Burglar is a good medium armor melee class with stealth but has nothing for range, and the Warden has the medium armor, melee and range that I want, but no stealth and the gambits are just not style of play that works for me. The Warden uses a javelin and shield. Range doesn't have to mean a bow. Spears and axes can be thrown.

Beorning is a shapeshifter novelty class to me that I don't play much. Like warden, it's just not a class fighting style that suits the way I play but it's fun when I want something completely different. And I haven't tried Brawler yet.

The trouble with Swashbucker is that on land, it's just another land-dwelling fighter class, and on a ship, there's no freedom to explore, or not much to see at sea if you did, a lot like the Evendim Everswim but with a ship. How would the play style be different that you could call it a class of its own? If there was ship to ship combat, that might be something, but I really don't think we're going to see that even with a revamped post-war Gondor.

[VanguardIV]

Agreed. I want a class that actually wields a sword with lighter-on-the-feet style (versus yet another Cappy, Champ, or Guard)- and it sounds like we're heading in that direction

Ooh now that sounds interesting. More mobility and moving around rather than stagnant gameplay. I think I prefer that honestly, and fits since most of the medium armor classes already technically do that.

Another range class would have been nice though, since save for the burglar, the other 2 medium armors are ranged or can range. Maybe when we head to Harad? There's probably alot of Eastern based range-type weapons they could use or think off.

[Radhruin_EU]

Or I could just use your language and tell you I'm tired of this nonsense. But rather than do *just that* and refuse to acknowledge what you said, well.. I don't think it's true because I don't remember armored females in Gondor, even if it happened then probably one or two appearances for some specific quest NPCs, which is why I can't remember. But I do remember darker skinned males.

I didn't say in Gondor in particular, the game in general has plenty of female guards which neither makes sense lore-wise nor from common sense. It's a game thing. Like having assorted dark-skinned NPCs in Minas Tirith which absolutely isn't lore and doesn't make sense otherwise, either, leading you to claim this is "extended lore" and just making stuff up to suit yourself. Just like that nonsense you made up to justify the modern metropolitan-style diversity in the Witcher series.

If that's just nonsense then I find it funny you were still unable to prove one or two dedicated guys wouldn't be able to get through this border blockade and spy networks of yours, and how would any of that work at the practical/resources level, to make sure that you spot everyone and make sure no one got through, ever.

It's more that your would-be character background gets ever more contrived the more of that stuff they have to do, and you can't get away with the it's-just-one-guy thing either in a game which features grouping. And where's this supposed dedication coming from? So let's see where we've got up to there, shall we?

- how do they know they need to get to Bree? Umm... err.... the Blue Wizards were in the East, pal, not the South so you can't say a wizard told them to - let me guess, they have a dream or something?
- how would they know where Bree is when even the people in Gondor don't?
- how come they speak Westron?
- how come the Gondorians would let them in, Haradrim accent and clothing and all? Or is the idea to sneak out of Harad, cross 250 miles of no-man's-land which might well be being watched as I suggested, somehow get across the Anduin, and then either be magically unnoticed as being from Harad despite at least having an accent etc. or else sneak right across Gondor as well?
- apparently you imagine they can stroll into a tavern and pay for stuff even though they wouldn't have any local currency, or could somehow have exchanged their money without anyone caring that this guy is obviously from Harad
- so what's the plan then, walk to Bree? Going that way was a difficult journey even for Boromir and he was a heroic captain, whereas your character is supposed to be just a nub at this point.
- oh yeah, random man from Harad is presumably now going to have to sneak right across Rohan as well, because he's still wearing Haradrim clothes and one thing's for sure, he'd stick out like a sore thumb among the strawheads there
- and again, both Gondor and Rohan were on a war footing and so would be frosty when it came to mystery men from Harad just showing up because they're known to be aligned with Sauron

Go on, tell me again how being suspicious of the random dude from Harad and his unknown purposes and intentions would be 'bigotry', racial profiling or whatever despite it being wartime and him being from a decidedly hostile people who were aligned with the Big Bad. I could use a laugh. It doesn't seem to register with you that it isn't a normal situation, even at the start of the game things are super tense in some places and your guy's from the wrong side of the tracks, so to speak.

I never meant any rebels and malcontents trying to start a rebellion in Harad, just a dedicated traveler from some obscure place who wanna reach Gondor at all cost or escaped member of minority group/slave, so I'm not sure why you keep mentioning rebels over and over again.

Because you did say that:

You could easily have different darker skinned factions out of nearby Harad settled in Harondor or close by and siding with Gondor at different points of history and even be granted a safe place in Gondor itself when things got out of hand (Not to mention earlier in Gondor's history, when it covered much of Middle-earth and made all of Harad its vassals, pretty much, so yes, it's exactly like Rome and Greeks).

There was never friendship with the Haradrim, remember? Has it not occurred to you that they didn't much like being colonised and forced to accept rule from Gondor? Fertile ground for Sauron to have exploited. It's the classic they-took-our-land thing again (like Saruman uses to exploit the Dunlendings). This isn't even remotely like Rome and Greece (not that the Greeks were very happy about that, anyway) because Rome adopted Greek culture and its language, among the educated classes, and benefited greatly from it. All Gondor seems to get is endless trouble because the Haradrim are fierce, proud, warlike and chafe against foreign rule. What it reminds me of more is how folks in North Africa in the colonial era didn't take kindly to foreign rule and rebelled repeatedly.

You're treating Harondor or Harad like it's outright Mordo, and then just keep on going, magically immune to consequencer with fields of weights, fell spirits, roving wargs with suitable places for their packs and carefully placed Watching-stones like out of Mordor and Angmar. That's totally not what I would think of and Haradrim sorcerers don't strike me like the best sort to sustain and control all these things, not to mention resources needed to organize all this, plus it would totally inconvenience actual army movements. Some crebain flocks would be enough but even then military espionage is most likely, not trying to chase after every single soul they spotted.

And there you go again. It's a no-man's-land between two warring sides and it's been that way for a very long time, and it's relatively close to Mordor so it would be normal for that to be watched and patrolled and in this case, *possibly* bolstered with some fantasy extras because that *might* be a worthwhile investment for Sauron to make if it'd keep the Gondorians from spying on the Harad border. I didn't say "fields of wights", so don't exaggerate. I was thinking more of Watchers plonked on top of hills here and there and maybe some evil spirits to put the frighteners on people (so the place feels creepy and horrible and people don't want to be there), not an Angmar style line of death or a wight under every rock. As for maintenance, do evil statues need maintenance? Do wights? Not hardly. But fine, the thing with the crebain from earlier would be enough to make the point.

Also LOL since the game actually does treat Angmar like it's outright Mordor when probably it should simply look more like Glen Coe on a bad day (gloomy and sinister with an oppressive air), and I wasn't suggesting anything as dramatic as game-Angmar is...

[Elebraen]

What difference is the race going to make to the class? Haradrim, Corsair, Easterling, Dunedain, those are all human subtypes. And I didn't see in the schedule that they were planning a new race to go along with the new class. I am hoping the new class would be race inclusive, allowing for elves, dwarves, humans or hobbits to become that class type.

[VanguardIV]

What difference is the race going to make to the class? Haradrim, Corsair, Easterling, Dunedain, those are all human subtypes. And I didn't see in the schedule that they were planning a new race to go along with the new class. I am hoping the new class would be race inclusive, allowing for elves, dwarves, humans or hobbits to become that class type.

We could use another men race-varient now that you mention it. Ooon maybe they release the new class with a new race?

[Phantion]

Ooh now that sounds interesting. More mobility and moving around rather than stagnant gameplay. I think I prefer that honestly, and fits since most of the medium armor classes already technically do that.

Another range class would have been nice though, since save for the burglar, the other 2 medium armors are ranged or can range. Maybe when we head to Harad? There's probably alot of Eastern based range-type weapons they could use or think off.

Yes. But even something that plays like a "fencer" or a "duelist" would be neat.


To give a "Star Wars" analogy: the Cappy and the Guard pretty much play like "Darth Vader." Slower, clunkier moves - not very stylized. The Champ is less focused, all over the place (like most Prequel Jedi, General Grievous, etc.).

I'd be looking for a "Count Dooku"- more of a flare but focused, deadly strikes (*he was the exception in combat style in the prequels). That character pretty clearly was inspired by older film villains as those in the Errol Flynn movies, the mustache-twirler. So I very much have the original film swashbucklers in mind also. Those fights were often faster-paced. Of course, "The Princess Bride" had a blast parodying it

So I'd want a 2-handed combat option - without it negatively affecting attack duration - which would give that class a role / advantage versus, say, the Guard in 2-handed red-line mode.

Cheers!