Warden Changes and Feedback

[Eadondryt]

While it's too late for this update, I always thought a diminishing returns system on particularly powerful gambits would address this.

Meaning: each time you use such a gambit you get a stacking debuff lasting X seconds that makes it Y% less effective if used again before the debuff falls off.

None of the gambits we have now are powerful enough to need this, but it could be a way to add gambits that are too good to be indefinitely spammable.

As I posted above, I think it would be more in line with the class philosophy if chains were actually defined patterns (straight or three-of-a-kind). For those who complain it's too complicated, you would get an AT for every three (properly sequenced) gambit chains instead of four (randomly sequenced). So it represents a skill element and a net gain of AT generation when played properly.

The reason it went to any order for AT generation, was because the fixed chain order was locking people into certain rotations for DPS. Being forced to apply your weakest skills first if you wanted chain bonuses. And the bonuses were not strong enough to warrant it. Which lead to the question, why have them at all then?

With the random order, people can now fire their strongest skills first for some burst damage, and still get some chain bonuses.

For blue it worked fine going from small to large, but for DPS who already suffered from a large ramp up time it was just not working out.

[LagunaD2]

The reason it went to any order for AT generation, was because the fixed chain order was locking people into certain rotations for DPS. Being forced to apply your weakest skills first if you wanted chain bonuses. And the bonuses were not strong enough to warrant it. Which lead to the question, why have them at all then?

With the random order, people can now fire their strongest skills first for some burst damage, and still get some chain bonuses.

For blue it worked fine going from small to large, but for DPS who already suffered from a large ramp up time it was just not working out.

5-4-3 and 4-3-2 could be considered "straights" as well.

(In addition to "three of a kind" like 5-5-5 and 4-4-4, etc)

With straights (in either order) and three of a kind, 8 out of the 64 possible three-gambit sequences would qualify as a chain.

[PreemptiveRegret]

Battle prep:

Shield tactics and mastery (5% mits)
Readied blade and shields up (-12% inc damage)
Dance of war and conviction (3% mits and ratings and heal)

Super tedious stuff. All of this precasting is such a chore. Hilarious this is the handiwork of the Dev who removed Anthem precasting from Minstrels and made Anthems merge together because being a buff maintenance bot is obviously bad gameplay.

So let's dial it to 11 for Warden.

Let's be brutally honest here. This is not a warden problem. As a fellow warden player I've never had any problems joining as warden dps in any run.

1 Warden is fine because of Adroit's inducton buff, which is being removed. You wouldn't take a 2nd Warden if were actually worried about DPS.

[Khallan]

Super tedious stuff. All of this precasting is such a chore. Hilarious this is the handiwork of the Dev who removed Anthem precasting from Minstrels and made Anthems merge together because being a buff maintenance bot is obviously bad gameplay.

So let's dial it to 11 for Warden.

Not saying that pre-casting is at all good, but I'll take the ability to precast, as opposed to not having that ability, which was the case for the first 4, 5 years? of the class maybe? I don't remember exactly when, but that was a very welcome addition to the class, I just think they've gone a bit TOO far with it.

Also, I wish I had been able to test these changes, I've been keeping an eye on the warden forum for actual years waiting on a meaningful rework, and alot of these changes actually look good for tanking on paper, just depends on how actually impactful the changes will be to making the class more viable as a tank.

Last time I played any significant amount of time was 95/105 caps though, so it's been a HOT minute.

I just really hope they get it at least mostly right this time, because the chances of another pass any time soon are slim to none and it makes me sad.

[Kander]

Super tedious stuff. All of this precasting is such a chore. Hilarious this is the handiwork of the Dev who removed Anthem precasting from Minstrels and made Anthems merge together because being a buff maintenance bot is obviously bad gameplay.

So let's dial it to 11 for Warden.

I think maybe it's possible they make buffs more meaningful but excluyent. Like make 3-4 buffs increase avoidances drastically but overwrite the -inc damage buffs (also increased in magnitude). That way you keep like 6 buffs only and rest is aggro management and healing while it fits the spirit of the class of being proactive and adapting to the fight...

[LagunaD2]

What if activating Battle Prep instantly gave you all or most buffs (Tactically Sound shouldn't be applied automatically) that are castable out of combat?

Then you could use it to prepare an actual opener without all the preliminaries.

We can dream, I guess.

Another idea I suggested a long time ago was to make gambits behave like normal abilities (you can put them on action bars and hard-cast them) while out of combat.

[Regero]

What if we made so each shield-line Gambit exclusively emphasized one thing, and did that one thing very well. Dance of War and Conviction for their respective mitigations (and the heal from Conviction), Readied Blade for Parry, Shield Up for Block, Shield Mastery for Evade, Shield Tactics for -incoming Tactical Damage (and CC immunity), Impressive Flourish for -incoming melee damage, Maddening Strike for -incoming Ranged Damage. This is just a rough idea, but the advantage to consolidating the effects would be to allow you to pick only what you need, rather than having to maintain 11 gambits (all of the above, plus three HoTs) for optimal survivability.

If you are running into a hoard of Orcs, you pop Shield Up, Shield Mastery, and Dance of War on your way to them, Open with Readied Blade, and Impressive Flourish, and BAM: you have everything you need against a blob of melee Orcs with only 5 gambits. Grabbing the other defensive Gambits really won't do anything for you, except for the Conviction heal, maybe. I suppose technically this would be 8 Gambits counting your self-heals, possibly still more if it's a large pool and your leaches are useful, but it's still an improvement by several gambits over the current system where you need to try to maintain at least 11 Gambits to be at full capacity.

Another advantage of this system is you could decide with slightly better clarity what you needed, and reach full capacity quicker in that area. Dragon just come out of a phase-change? About to nuke you with Fire? A quick Shield Tactics is the best response here. Tons of Lizards just join the fight? Getting all of your Evade at once is probably better than mitigation is this instance, so pop Shield Mastery. Other things can come later.

Unless you're really in an encounter with 1) a lot of enemies, 2) every type of damage happening at once, including physical, tactical, and ranged, 3) an encounter in which BPE and mitigations are equally valuable, this system would offer a small improvement both in quality of life, keeping the number of buffs we have to maintain slightly lower and allowing you to react to changing situations or phase-changes in a slightly more decisive manner. This would also help balance the gambits, as I noticed last Bullroarer that I constantly reached for Shield Up, but Shield Mastery came much later in my rotation as it simply wasn't as useful.

It's a small change, but I think it would offer moderate improvement as well as falling in line with OnnMacmahals vision of the gambits only doing 1, or maybe 2, things.

[Sirlat]

We are getting tanking traceries on the next BR.

Vs live we get -17% incoming damage (suppression and the new gambits)
That is a LOT considering how strong the healing is now.

First im not counting the 5% suppression. Mostly because suicide shot negates it and our only single target force taunt you know we are going to have to use it. Boss fights is where we struggle now and between the fact that we do not have ANY real taunts, not to mention tank swapping mechanics where we have to FT copy off of another tank, we are going to have to use this skill all through fights.

12% does help, dont get me wrong, but it isnt 12%. Back when they did testing on damage taken -inc dmg was calculated last (after mitgations, partials etc) Makes sense I guess since its the actual "incomming damage. However this means this is probably closer to around 4ish percent. Which is helpful but not enough even with the healing.

Think about it this way.

Lets assume a mob swings for 100 dmg. -12% would be 12 dmg

However if we mitigate 63% first (anyone have the actual value handy for max mits on BR?)
we are only taking 37 dmg

If there were no other factors at all (partial block or anything) then at the very best that 12% is now

37 * .12 = 4.44 which is slightly less than 4.5% of the original damage.

The issue with inc dmg as opposed to mit% is that the more you are mitigating up front the less helpful this is. Admittedly i think its been a long time since this has been tested but I suspect the dmg calculations havent changed. Ill try to do some testing next BR both with and without the -inc dmg.


I am cautiously excited to see the tanking traceries, its depressing to look under "determination traceries" and see a single entry.

[jDzames]

The "- incoming damage" is better looked at as damage that is reduced from the amount you'd normally receive, instead of percentage of damage for which the mob/boss hits.
I agree that damage mitigated this way is smaller than how % look. But having few of these (10%+10%...) should have some noticeable effect.

[Kander]

The "- incoming damage" is better looked at as damage that is reduced from the amount you'd normally receive, instead of percentage of damage for which the mob/boss hits.
I agree that damage mitigated this way is smaller than how % look. But having few of these (10%+10%...) should have some noticeable effect.

Incoming damage is literally that, incoming damage. Call it 2nd step mitigation.
The problem with mitigations is that they are additive and Inc damage is multiplicative, which for reducing are less powerful unless both are 0.

Considering base damage as B and mit as M, while inc damage reduction is D...
1st step. B*(1- ( M1+M2+...+Mn)) = C
2nd step C(1-D1)(1-D2)...(1-Dn) = total damage.

This means if you add 1 more mit buff damage reduction of it is always more than that mit % increase. If you add 1 more Inc damage buff it's literally same % reduction the buff said compared to when you didn't have that buff. An extreme case was old warden DC with 90% mitigation. If you had any 3% mit buff from other class it further reduced your Inc damage by 30% instead of 3 and if you added another 3% it would be a 60% reduction, and so on...

On the other hand -inc damage does affect fixed damage attacks that have no damage type, although they are not common nowadays apart from morale % damage...

[Eadondryt]

First im not counting the 5% suppression. Mostly because suicide shot negates it and our only single target force taunt you know we are going to have to use it. Boss fights is where we struggle now and between the fact that we do not have ANY real taunts, not to mention tank swapping mechanics where we have to FT copy off of another tank, we are going to have to use this skill all through fights.

12% does help, dont get me wrong, but it isnt 12%. Back when they did testing on damage taken -inc dmg was calculated last (after mitgations, partials etc) Makes sense I guess since its the actual "incomming damage. However this means this is probably closer to around 4ish percent. Which is helpful but not enough even with the healing.

Think about it this way.

Lets assume a mob swings for 100 dmg. -12% would be 12 dmg

However if we mitigate 63% first (anyone have the actual value handy for max mits on BR?)
we are only taking 37 dmg

If there were no other factors at all (partial block or anything) then at the very best that 12% is now

37 * .12 = 4.44 which is slightly less than 4.5% of the original damage.

The issue with inc dmg as opposed to mit% is that the more you are mitigating up front the less helpful this is. Admittedly i think its been a long time since this has been tested but I suspect the dmg calculations havent changed. Ill try to do some testing next BR both with and without the -inc dmg.


I am cautiously excited to see the tanking traceries, its depressing to look under "determination traceries" and see a single entry.

Suppression is a multiplicative debuff, which is a real 5% reduction, with diminishing returns when stacked with other multiplicative debuffs.

So you can absolutely count suppression in the damage mitigations we have.
I will test that again on BR this week when it drops and post the results here.

[jDzames]

Incoming damage is literally that, incoming damage. Call it 2nd step mitigation.
The problem with mitigations is that they are additive and Inc damage is multiplicative, which for reducing are less powerful unless both are 0.

Considering base damage as B and mit as M, while inc damage reduction is D...
1st step. B*(1- ( M1+M2+...+Mn)) = C
2nd step C(1-D1)(1-D2)...(1-Dn) = total damage.

This means if you add 1 more mit buff damage reduction of it is always more than that mit % increase. If you add 1 more Inc damage buff it's literally same % reduction the buff said compared to when you didn't have that buff. An extreme case was old warden DC with 90% mitigation. If you had any 3% mit buff from other class it further reduced your Inc damage by 30% instead of 3 and if you added another 3% it would be a 60% reduction, and so on...

On the other hand -inc damage does affect fixed damage attacks that have no damage type, although they are not common nowadays apart from morale % damage...

Wait, incoming damage reduction is multiplicative??? That is very unfortunate if true...
Instead of reduction of 27.5+12+12=51.5% (FtFP + 3stacks + gambit), we get only ~44% reduction...
Or with additional tome of defence it's not 61.5% but 49.5%...
Of course it is better than live, but worse than what I hoped for.
Let's hope for some good traceries now...

[jDzames]

I mean I get why this is better for devs - this solves issue of someone getting to 100% reduction with many buffs. They can keep adding these buffs without too much looking around whether it's safe/below 100% summed.
But man, the higher number of weaker buffs, the bigger the loss in the multiplication. And we have like 12 here, 12 there, ftfp is also not really impressive in terms of it's own reduction... Traceries are better good!!!

[FrasierWCrane]

Please remove the unnecessary + 5% Outgoing Damage from Warning Shot. Thank you!

[Sirlat]

Suppression is a multiplicative debuff, which is a real 5% reduction, with diminishing returns when stacked with other multiplicative debuffs.

So you can absolutely count suppression in the damage mitigations we have.
I will test that again on BR this week when it drops and post the results here.

I am not counting it because we are pretty much required to use suicide shot which gives the mob +5% outgoing dmg.


Im not worried about trash mobs dmg, boss dmg is where this is going to make a difference and we WILL be using suicide on em repeatedly not just for intial aggro (tank switching happens alot in higher raid tiers). Nor is this just 5% to me, if i use it on boss 2 HoA the other tank is now taking +5% dmg (when we are trying to distribute damage and tank swap back and forth)

[Plidak]

I am not counting it because we are pretty much required to use suicide shot which gives the mob +5% outgoing dmg.


Im not worried about trash mobs dmg, boss dmg is where this is going to make a difference and we WILL be using suicide on em repeatedly

Dont be worried, we will not. If the skill goes live /the way is on beta/ no one will take us as tank outside 3/6m
Not sure can we even tank the seasonal t3...

Shame

[Sirlat]

Dont be worried, we will not. If the skill goes live /the way is on beta/ no one will take us as tank outside 3/6m
Not sure can we even tank the seasonal t3...

Shame

..... this is sadly true.


I really don't understand the logic on the 5%. is it because of the suppression debuff? The guard has roughly the same thing with war chant and it helps them in other ways (reducing cooldowns etc). Its on a 10s cooldown w/10s duration so it can be kept up constantly just like a gambit debuff.

Look i get warden is an advanced class, but i always thought that meant - you play bad you are worse, you play good you are better than an "easy" class (at least better at "something"?!?). However lotro's version of advanced class seems to be - We will make everything for this class so bad you will have to be amazing just to be decent.


Admittedly that is not entirely fair, the warden can do some cool things, but raid / high tier tanking isnt one of them. I started this class as a tank and thats how i want to play it.
/Please

[OnnMacMahal]

Any chance we could get a +5% spear damage similar to captains who got a +5% halberd damage or burglars who get a +5% to daggers? Would fit the theme of warden, even though swords would still be preferred due to the increased parry benefit. Just my 2 cents

Yes, the additional +5% Spear damage is being reinstated (by way of Master Spear Training, earned at level 30) so your baseline damage bonus with a spear should be equivalent to the value from your class passives + sword or club racial traits.

[Eadondryt]

I am not counting it because we are pretty much required to use suicide shot which gives the mob +5% outgoing dmg.


Im not worried about trash mobs dmg, boss dmg is where this is going to make a difference and we WILL be using suicide on em repeatedly not just for intial aggro (tank switching happens alot in higher raid tiers). Nor is this just 5% to me, if i use it on boss 2 HoA the other tank is now taking +5% dmg (when we are trying to distribute damage and tank swap back and forth)

We’ll continue to be ignorant then. It’s clear you are commenting without having tested any of what you are saying.

Therefore I conclude you don’t know what you are taking about.

The damage reduction was 2.7% on a boss btw, from warning shot.
Also don’t forget that additional damage given by the boss also goes through your mitigations and damage reduction in the calculation.
“Suicide shot” my ###.

[Novina]

Yes, the additional +5% Spear damage is being reinstated (by way of Master Spear Training, earned at level 30) so your baseline damage bonus with a spear should be equivalent to the value from your class passives + sword or club racial traits.

Finally, thank you!

[Plidak]

We’ll continue to be ignorant then. It’s clear you are commenting without having tested any of what you are saying.

Therefore I conclude you don’t know what you are taking about.

The damage reduction was 2.7% on a boss btw, from warning shot.
Also don’t forget that additional damage given by the boss also goes through your mitigations and damage reduction in the calculation.
“Suicide shot” my ###.

You ok m8?
The dmg reduction is 5%

Warning Shot
30m Range
Ranged Skill
A powerful toss which weakens your target's resolve, lowering their attack damage for a short time.
...% of Ranged + bonus Damage
-5% Outgoing Damage
Duration: 1m
Forced Attack

I dont care about actual dmg reduction. And obv the guy mean tooltip number.
Also will you tell me why wrd taunt should buff boss even with 2.7% ?
Will you come and white knight to me explaining to every LF tank kid that the dmg i buff the boss is actualy lower from what tooltip says my Inv "tank" wont be ignored ?

What you actualy do on wrd forum hunter

...

There was a guy asking for Forced March effect to persist, similar to hunter skills, so we wont need to activate it every time we go out of combat, and im 100% positive that your answer was " Sure, why not. Done" I look back the entire warden threath and i cant find this post anymore. I test this efect on last BR and skill work like we have it on live. Shall we see this little change going live with u35 ? Is not like we dont have enough keys to press already ..

[Eadondryt]

You ok m8?
The dmg reduction is 5%

Warning Shot
30m Range
Ranged Skill
A powerful toss which weakens your target's resolve, lowering their attack damage for a short time.
...% of Ranged + bonus Damage
-5% Outgoing Damage
Duration: 1m
Forced Attack

I dont care about actual dmg reduction. And obv the guy mean tooltip number.
Also will you tell me why wrd taunt should buff boss even with 2.7% ?
Will you come and white knight to me explaining to every LF tank kid that the dmg i buff the boss is actualy lower from what tooltip says my Inv "tank" wont be ignored ?

What you actualy do on wrd forum hunter ?

Log onto bullroarer when it opens, come find me and I’ll show you what the warden can do when you actually know what you are doing.
I’ll also invite you “suicide shot” friend along, so you can both eat a slice of humble pie, when you realise that it barely makes a difference to a wardens survivability.

Then maybe you can stop with the “you don’t play warden”, “you are inexperienced”, “you are a hunter” nonsense, because that just makes you look like a salty 12 year old.

[OnnMacMahal]

The first post has been updated with some changes and tracery information.

[Plidak]

The first post has been updated with some changes and tracery information.

Looking good. Thanks

[LagunaD2]

The first post has been updated with some changes and tracery information.

The tracery changes are superb.