Gondor rework - some landscape suggestions

[TesalionLortus]

I completely forgot we could only access 1/2 of Pelargil back in the day. The space feels so continuous now, after all. Only it seems this river didn't get the memo:





There is still an unclimbable, hard border here, along the entire river. Would be nice to have a place to disembark on the other shore, on new map and old one. Right now you're forced to ride through Pelargil to cross
Well, maybe not too easy though... just a little spot, perhaps hidden behind some bushes? Because could be a bit off if someone who hasn't retaken Pelargil yet got a little bit ahead of themselves and entered the city from the other side

***PS: ironically... see that image? This river on Before Gondor map is a bit flat here, with not much being visible for waves/motion, so reminds me a bit of that "toxic waste blue" water that was reverted. Meanwhile, I hear from Phantion it was the Anduin that was changed on bullroarer (which currently feels pretty good on live) and not this one :P How come








Regarding the beacons, were they always like this?





One part golden and the top part of the ornament.. bronze? Or is this a recent texture bug? Seems a bit off now that I think of it, you can clearly see two different assets trying to parade as one continuous ornament.
Regardless whether it's bugged or not, maybe would be nice to change color to wholly golden, so both assets blend nicely and feel like they are a continuous structure? Or perhaps... have some of the beacons with fully bronze ornaments and some others with fully golden ornaments - depending on economic status of the region. So Ringlo Vale could only afford bronze, near Pelargil golden etc. Could be a nice flavor










I've posted this through the bug queue but who knows what priority it has, so since you're working on Gondor... could you retexture these ugly black lines on those Gondorian textures please? + the ugly "dirty" dots/smudges, in the triangular top parts?





It's like an ugly black smear in Paint, in a bad taste, ruins the entire scene. And a thinner line next to it, that one is a bit nicer but also like out of Paint. Doesn't feel natural. Much better if it was just white, with stone detail, just like everything down below on the pillar - which is a very nice pillar. No vertical dark lines, no trying to convey irregularity (kinda like sides of the pavement? which I guess it was supposed to represent? but it just doesn't work and is a distracting eye sore)

I submitted Annuminas variants of this structure in the bug queue too. They really take away from otherwise amazing scenes. This is like one flawed texture that totally ruins amazing Belfalas Housing vistas for me. For example, this view of the port. Those lines and smudges are there on new Cardolan equivalent too, visible on the pillars of Caranost bridge. But Cardolan texture can be easily ignored, since Cardolan assets are very dirty, ugly and fully green overall, so it's not as jarring and kinda blends in with the rest of it. But those white Gondorian and Annuminas pillars.. they feel wrong with these black lines and dirty smudges

[TesalionLortus]

Since I took a ride though Pelargil... I stopped to "contemplate" some of the winged mess... The city is truly amazing and some of the wings are nice too. But there are those giant bad apples in the masterpiece that take away from the scene. Here are some of my thoughts and recommendations, what can be easily done about it and what seems particularly jarring to me







First of all, starting with positives, I love those wide signal towers/beacons with fires atop!





If large enough and a lone distant tower - works great. If somewhat isolated in a settlement? Towering over everything else? Works too, and very impressive with those wings. If there is a much wider structure right beneath the tower but the tower itself not as high? Also works and I can accept those wings





Higher as a main centerpiece of the settlement?





Great! Kinda like Pharos tower in AC Origins but impressive deco attached, it works really nice as the central tower here in Pelargil. It creates nice effect and is believable enough - because tower is large enough, also the wings aren't awkwardly/loosely attached to the sides - they blend in better since they're attached to the pyramidal crowning of the tower, which makes the entire construction more believable, despite their size.


What doesn't work at all are 2 x 2 pairs of giant wings attached to these smaller additional side towers below. Shouldn't really have any wings at all, maybe some other deco in their place. Even giant banners would do much better that those wings









In case when those beacon towers are noticeably shorter and cluttered, like here on the left:





Maybe here I would consider some change for them, since it kinda doesn't correspond with the scene (seems overdone with the size and here they're just gate towers, with no wider support beneath them) and steals flare from the main tower too! Hmm, maybe just scale the wings down a bit. Or maybe remove those wings. Or maybe replace with wings like the ones on the right (but make them much smaller!) - just one pair, not two pairs on each tower - because the combination of *two pairs of wings* on one tower on so many of these towers was one disastrous choice


As for the gate on the right side... well, here I would really get rid of those awkwardly positioned too giant wings. Maybe replace with something else. Maybe shorter Annuminas-styled spikes in the middle of the dome shape? Why not. A bit minimal but neat - also different, since we haven't seen spikes on oval-styled towers yet









Speaking of two pairs on each tower that I've already mentioned and how terrible it is...





IMO all of those gotta go, seriously! They look awful, overdone without taste and not believable in the slightest, because VERY awkwardly placed and attached






The only example where I would consider leaving them on is like here:





From the side? Still annoys me in a jarring way. Like, they're so big and attached so awkwardly. Maybe it could be alleviated and actually look nicer if... you got rid of the needless weight? Meaning the needless second pair AT THE BACK? And then, all what's needed from the front is like on second image


From the front is actually AMAZING effect. Here I gotta appreciate the use of those giant wings in such an overhelping fashion, but it only works under very specific circumstances and strategically placed like here - you enter a courtyard and look above you... there is this angelic tower-head almost floating in the air... Very nice. Also, since it's the main tower of the place, giant wings are visually justified and don't contribute to any clutter because there aren't many around








About the "wings leaning back" technique:





Here I'm conflicted, would love to hear what others think. Like, on one hand, I'm quite impressed when I'm on river and I see the port city entryway, with such winged parts on both sides. On the other hand, as can be seen on the image, even if not a bad idea, in this example they're placed kinda awkwardly - they cover up the windows, and it seems to me.. maybe they should be a bit higher, attached to the dome? Maybe a tiny bit smaller too, then?


Plus, I would totally get rid of "wings leaning back" within cities, wherever there is already too much condensation of wings.

[TesalionLortus]

The "just one pair of wings" tower types





Generally less problems here and not as jarring, but still a mixed bag.


1 and 2 seem very good and effective, blend in nicely and make sense.
3 and 4 seem to make less sense, too giant, needlessly cluttered amongst other buildings. or two towers with giant wings right next to each other which is a bit weird. So probably better to remove them in such cases and just have the towers. Maybe can be decorated with something else instead









Speaking of replacement decorations, why not, there are a lot of candidates to play with - in moderation of course, so don't overdo with something else, lol





Plus a lot of other Gondorian-styled assets, an occasional statue here or there etc. Minimalism would be a way to go sometimes, and yeah - minimalism, so no oversizing


By the way, that star-headed angel is amazing and I totally forgotten of its existence! Nice find, that's actually a very nice use of those wings!










Ah

there is also this tower that's used sporadically in ruined cities of Gondor:





That one is a true atrocity visually. The spikes and x4 giant wings, awkwardly attached somewhere slightly below the head of this thin tower, don't match/don't make esthetic sense at all. Again.. if in shortage of actually suitable assets... minimalism is your friend, I would say That tower here would be just fine with spikes alone, IMO.









Now, I realize all such changes and touches would probably require the devs to go one by one, city by city, tower by tower, simultaneously on Before and After maps and copying over individual changes... but the whole of Gondor would be perfectly splendorous as a result and each vista a sight to behold, whereas now... it looks sorta splendorous but with much awkwardness and invasive issues atop many of those towers and structures... literally in each single zone from Dol Amroth to Cair Andros! So how amazing would that be if you found the time to address these issues SSG, dare I hope that's possible? Anyway, hopefully some of that visual feedback/rant can be useful. I wonder what other forum posters who mentioned the "winged mess" think and whether they agree with me

[k40rne]

Since I took a ride though Pelargil... I stopped to "contemplate" some of the winged mess... The city is truly amazing and some of the wings are nice too. But there are those giant bad apples in the masterpiece that take away from the scene. Here are some of my thoughts and recommendations, what can be easily done about it and what seems particularly jarring to me


If large enough and a lone distant tower - works great. If somewhat isolated in a settlement? Towering over everything else? Works too, and very impressive with those wings. If there is a much wider structure right beneath the tower but the tower itself not as high? Also works and I can accept those wings

Higher as a main centerpiece of the settlement?


What doesn't work at all are 2 x 2 pairs of giant wings attached to these smaller additional side towers below. Shouldn't really have any wings at all, maybe some other deco in their place. Even giant banners would do much better that those wings

First off, I'm appreciative you made this long overdue thread. Me and my ex gf have griped about it since West Gondor was added.

And yes, those wings need to either be significantly scaled down and have much less across all of Gondor; a few on major set pieces is cool, but on every short tower really looks childish and detracts from the beauty of Gondor. Those wings that point backwards that you mentioned look bad & cover up the windows, maybe putting them on the domes of the seawall would be better if reduced in scale, as you said.

Overall, it needs to be reimagined & I seriously hope this is being done. I can't imagine Scenario creating new redone Gondorian zones and leaving it like that, he's too much a perfectionist. And of course the same goes for those reliefs in Dol Amroth et al. They have so many more assets (large statues) they created for Minas Tirith that look great, surely they could use some of these. These were all done as back to back updates & fairly rushed, so we shouldn't be too harsh (as long as they will fix as they redo the non Dawnless zones & of course that means fixing them on both phases).

There are certainly some lovely spots across these zones, but it would be nice if they can now rectify these old mistakes, as they are redoing (some) of the zones and have a huge amount of new assets to work with.

Also, when doing something like this, the phrase "less is more" should be understood.

[TesalionLortus]

First off, I'm appreciative you made this long overdue thread. Me and my ex gf have griped about it since West Gondor was added.

And yes, those wings need to either be significantly scaled down and have much less across all of Gondor; a few on major set pieces is cool, but on every short tower really looks childish and detracts from the beauty of Gondor. Those wings that point backwards that you mentioned look bad & cover up the windows, maybe putting them on the domes of the seawall would be better if reduced in scale, as you said.

Overall, it needs to be reimagined & I seriously hope this is being done. I can't imagine Scenario creating new redone Gondorian zones and leaving it like that, he's too much a perfectionist. And of course the same goes for those reliefs in Dol Amroth et al. They have so many more assets (large statues) they created for Minas Tirith that look great, surely they could use some of these. These were all done as back to back updates & fairly rushed, so we shouldn't be too harsh (as long as they will fix as they redo the non Dawnless zones & of course that means fixing them on both phases).

There are certainly some lovely spots across these zones, but it would be nice if they can now rectify these old mistakes, as they are redoing (some) of the zones and have a huge amount of new assets to work with.

Also, when doing something like this, the phrase "less is more" should be understood.

You're welcome. Yeah, sometimes less is better. There is balance to everything. Fingers crossed they can address this.

No, not "reimagined" given what this word is officially associated with now... just slightly "corrected" Yeah, they clearly didn't create enough deco assets not until they got to MT (which is also why the structures in the Paths of the Dead suffer from " infusion of different sets" but didn't bother me as much there). Lack of assets, partly, and - I think - trying to honor architectural continuity from Arnor/ruined Gondor of Rhovanion (but giving it an unique flair) is what resulted in this massive winged fail/overuse.

Like here, which itself is very good, but creates a certain precedent that the newer wings follow too feverously :



Except all of these ruined "wings" are a bit more on the minimalist side, thinner, so they tend to work better, and even then the devs sparsely used them in 4x combinations or as large. Most of these ruins uses their versions of wings much better and passable, though even amongst those there are some bad apples that I've noticed in more recent times that they didn't age well, but they would be like literally just 1-3 instances, not much - but frankly... seems like such 1-3 instances were actually where the most horrendous of the new wings combinations were taking their inspiration from, so someone was trying to honor a few ideas that were already dubious yet easily missed back then A series of unfortunate design events that populated Gondor with such winged fanaticism, lol



Overuse of wings and winged heads which aged terribly aside... the design itself like city layouts and ideas was actually nice, and I enjoyed Gondor's cities as a nice breath of fresh air after Rohan, even though we could have gotten more out of it in terms of variety if the valleys were delved more and/or pushed further North, with more actual in-land space, so then maybe a few more cities more akin to Morlad, so at least 50% wooden/regular houses (not 100% this fancy white high Gondorian architecture) and then walled, akin to Gondorian leftover walls in Snowbourn. (OK, I don't complain, it's really not necessary - but I always felt that Morlad itself was a little bit... without defenses at all? Should at least had some palisades/watch posts/or smaller stone wall strategically placed, not just this Shire-like stone fence, but that's not really that important and the area is relatively safe but less rich economically so I can get behind the concept of "need no walls here").

[k40rne]

No, not "reimagined" given what this word is officially associated with now... just slightly "corrected" Yeah, they clearly didn't create enough deco assets not until they got to MT (which is also why the structures in the Paths of the Dead suffer from " infusion of different sets" but didn't bother me as much there). Lack of assets, partly, and - I think - trying to honor architectural continuity from Arnor/ruined Gondor of Rhovanion (but giving it an unique flair) is what resulted in this massive winged fail/overuse.

Yes, I only meant the design of that motif reimagined, not the entire zone. Although I wish they reimagined Dol Amroth, for it's detailing, the core city is fine, the library looks great, the palace and the individual locales like gardens look good, but the detailing was where they failed. Even the boat icons are overused and overly large.

Except all of these ruined "wings" are a bit more on the minimalist side, thinner, so they tend to work better, and even then the devs sparsely used them in 4x combinations or as large. Most of these ruins uses their versions of wings much better and passable, though even amongst those there are some bad apples that I've noticed in more recent times that they didn't age well, but they would be like literally just 1-3 instances, not much - but frankly... seems like such 1-3 instances were actually where the most horrendous of the new wings combinations were taking their inspiration from, so someone was trying to honor a few ideas that were already dubious yet easily missed back then A series of unfortunate design events that populated Gondor with such winged fanaticism, lol

Overuse of wings and winged heads which aged terribly aside... the design itself like city layouts and ideas was actually nice, and I enjoyed Gondor's cities as a nice breath of fresh air after Rohan, even though we could have gotten more out of it in terms of variety if the valleys were delved more and/or pushed further North, with more actual in-land space, so then maybe a few more cities more akin to Morlad, so at least 50% wooden/regular houses (not 100% this fancy white high Gondorian architecture) and then walled, akin to Gondorian leftover walls in Snowbourn.

Yes, there are certainly decent uses of these wings, but most are saturated and toyishly oversized. there are about 4 or 5 wing variation types, and most only have a couple decent uses. Even the beacons only look ok with it, some feel oversized too. The spires are so much better a design, a couple wings are ok to give prominence to very specific locations.

OK, I don't complain, it's really not necessary - but I always felt that Morlad itself was a little bit... without defenses at all? Should at least had some palisades/watch posts/or smaller stone wall strategically placed, not just this Shire-like stone fence, but that's not really that important and the area is relatively safe but less rich economically so I can get behind the concept of "need no walls here").

Yes, but a few places in Calembel are also entirely defenseless & at least Morlad has the Mountains as a natural defense that allows for several levels from which to pick troops or an incoming attack force from.

[TesalionLortus]

Agreed.

Though aren't you mistaking Calembel for something else?




This one is actually defended by natural barrier from one side and got smaller walls/towers too. I don't really expect all of those to be kickass big, in the end, so fine with me. But the wings here too... if they can get the wings solved then it'll be already such an improvement Here in Calembel I would probably take most of them down, if not all. Or leave a pair or two but significantly scaled down, just a small touch here. I guess Calembel is sort of smaller/less economically rich? So better to see wings used in the likes of Dol Amroth, Pelargil etc but not here

[k40rne]

Agreed.

Though aren't you mistaking Calembel for something else?




This one is actually defended by natural barrier from one side and got smaller walls/towers too. I don't really expect all of those to be kickass big, in the end, so fine with me. But the wings here too... if they can get the wings solved then it'll be already such an improvement Here in Calembel I would probably take most of them down, if not all. Or leave a pair or two but significantly scaled down, just a small touch here. I guess Calembel is sort of smaller/less economically rich? So better to see wings used in the likes of Dol Amroth, Pelargil etc but not here

yes, Lamedon I meant has several villages that are completely in the open.

And yes, the wings are definitely saturated here in Calembel too.

[TesalionLortus]

I actually like it that there are some villages/smallish settlements shown, in a relatively peaceful region like this they wouldn't have/need defenses. Also creates a nice narrative contrast, when Corsairs pull that gambit and sail so far up the river to plunder (like that settlement Jajax's men raided), tends to show nobody even considered that (Angbor left to defend Linhir)

[k40rne]

I actually like it that there are some villages/smallish settlements shown, in a relatively peaceful region like this they wouldn't have/need defenses. Also creates a nice narrative contrast, when Corsairs pull that gambit and sail so far up the river to plunder (like that settlement Jajax's men raided), tends to show nobody even considered that (Angbor left to defend Linhir)

yes, that's my point. it doesn't need it, it's farmland. more of that scattered about Gondor would be good.

[TesalionLortus]

yes, that's my point. it doesn't need it, it's farmland. more of that scattered about Gondor would be good.

I misunderstood you, sorry.
Yeah true. Traversable or just flavors visible somewhere from existing landscape with some of the valleys uncovered a bit - a few such villages/unwalled settlements would be nice to have in Northern reaches above Lossornach and Central Gondor. Plus maybe a larger, spacey walled settlement with regular (not of stone) houses, somewhere North of Belfalas housing, since it got enough space to make it work.

[auximenes]

I too think the wings are overused. Used sporadically on the tallest and/or most visible building in a city/fortress is fine, but used on the top of everything 'tower-y' is too much, it isn't that appealing aesthetically, and it dilutes the impact of the wing decoration.

[Phantion]

Aesthetics are subjective. I've seen it both ways.

But are we forgetting that Tolkien kind of, sort of viewed Gondor in light of not only Venice but the eastern Roman Empire (*later Byzantine)?

Byzantine architecture tended to be that showy, gaudy, tons of sparkling domes everywhere. I've seen San Marco in Venice and what that looks like. Substitute the exaggerated domes and such for Elendil heads and swan wings, and there you go.

Some prefer the more rugged castles of northwestern Europe. Others actually - like - *gasps* something more showy. I'd also point out that, as far as architectural uniformity (*tons of feature X) goes, that's Greece with all its blue and white buildings all over the place. Not every culture is informed by a Beowulf-era Mead Hall or grim castle in the north-lands. To me, would Calembel look more impressive or less impressive without those swan wings? Less - but that's to me, because hey, it's subjective.

Fortunately for me, I happen to like both styles Also - be careful what you ask for. Often, as we're seeing with Gondor's waters on Bullroarer right now, or as we saw far earlier with Swanfleet's waters, the attempt to "fix" something aesthetic could actually make it much worse - though only in the eyes of some rather than others. Can't appease everybody- that's my point. Art is Art. Prefer what you prefer. Compare the two Carn Dum's. I'm actually liking the new one more than the old one; I ran CD on Live then hopped over onto BR to test instances. Yes, I suppose that, lore-wise, maybe the older CD makes some more sense. But then again, all they really did for U35 is bring CD up to the standards of an Isengard. The sewers were delved deeper and feel a lot more like Isengard's deep pits; the gardens feel eerily beautiful while fetid at the same time. The place feels more like people lived there and that Mordirith had had plenty of centuries to work in secret while Angmar was thought defeated for a very long time. It felt like Sauron was actually responsible for recreating this place. But that's again, just my humble opinion- and just another viewer's subjective aesthetics. The original CD is really tiny - and you could fit it in a quarter of Osgiliath.

Cheers!

[MadeofLions]

Aesthetics are subjective.

I think this is worth remembering. I've seen complaining about some of the decorations in Gondor over the years, but I trust the artists and the worldbuilders. I obviously skew more towards Words than Pictures, but it all looks like Middle-earth to me.

MoL

[Phantion]

I completely forgot we could only access 1/2 of Pelargil back in the day. The space feels so continuous now, after all. Only it seems this river didn't get the memo:





There is still an unclimbable, hard border here, along the entire river. Would be nice to have a place to disembark on the other shore, on new map and old one. Right now you're forced to ride through Pelargil to cross
Well, maybe not too easy though... just a little spot, perhaps hidden behind some bushes? Because could be a bit off if someone who hasn't retaken Pelargil yet got a little bit ahead of themselves and entered the city from the other side

***PS: ironically... see that image? This river on Before Gondor map is a bit flat here, with not much being visible for waves/motion, so reminds me a bit of that "toxic waste blue" water that was reverted. Meanwhile, I hear from Phantion it was the Anduin that was changed on bullroarer (which currently feels pretty good on live) and not this one :P How come

About that water. I actually think it might have something to do with the way you set your graphics. I tend to keep ambient light high and contrast around 60-70% but gamma lower and balance the brightness. It makes the Dawnless Day darker and not just feel overcast - as it should be. It also makes the "toxic blue" feel a far more natural Mediterranean crystal blue in its hue. Because the water does reflect the sky, the Dawnless Day probably also makes the water look less appealing in that screenshot.

Experiment a bit more with your lighting if you wish You may find the water can and does look a ton better with somewhat darker settings that make the place feel more realistic. I don't make things pitch-dark - as I still need to see what I'm doing - but I do tend to make it so things stand out a bit more.

Where that shade of water looks great and has no issues, at least to me, is with West Gondor with the bluer skies. Then that shade really shines. They've used the clear river water for the ocean waters for U35 now - and ugh. It doesn't feel like the Sea anymore. If your really curious, I'd encourage you to download Bullroarer, copy a character, and ride around and see for yourself

I agree with you it needs more river-like effects though. I wonder if there's a way they could . . . combine the two water styles? Like give the water that crystal-blue hue but also give it the same level of reflectivity as the river water? Let me ask in the adjacent thread. That actually might be the key here.

Cheers!

[Phantion]

I think this is worth remembering. I've seen complaining about some of the decorations in Gondor over the years, but I trust the artists and the worldbuilders. I obviously skew more towards Words than Pictures, but it all looks like Middle-earth to me.

MoL

Here, here, MoL! Thanks for all the great work that you do! The Epic always has me riveted. Still looking forward to tracking down the mysteries of Throkhar, Loknashra / Drugoth in the North, whoever Sauron left in charge of Umbar who didn't sail to Annuminas in Volume I (*did Mordrambor have an evil twin brother? ), Borangos' dark pursuits beneath Orodruin, wherever Lhaereth fled to next, those left in charge of Nurn, the ultimate fates of Karazgar and Ayorzen . . . you've got a ton of fun plots on the stove burners!

Here's hoping, in King's Gondor, we can finally tell the people of Anfalas of the valiant fall of their Lord, Golasgil, in the Battle of the Black Gate against the Olog as our player-characters promised him!

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Aesthetics are subjective. I've seen it both ways.

But are we forgetting that Tolkien kind of, sort of viewed Gondor in light of not only Venice but the eastern Roman Empire (*later Byzantine)?

Byzantine architecture tended to be that showy, gaudy, tons of sparkling domes everywhere. I've seen San Marco in Venice and what that looks like. Substitute the exaggerated domes and such for Elendil heads and swan wings, and there you go.

Simple question, Phantion - are those thin towers on San Marco supporting the weight of giant wings - and 2 pairs of them at that - awkwardly attached with no other support yet as large? I think not. Also, it's a focal point of the place, it's not like every single building, large or small, has the exact same deco of same sizes attached to them all around... and that's the only problem pointed out, it doesn't stick.

Because nobody of us really said we don't want any wings or any fancy deco - I guess literally nobody has meant that, in all these years regarding Gondor (which is why I don't understand MoL's comment above and it kinda sounds like an excuse... yes, it does feel like Middle-earth to me, still doesn't change the fact some of the design choices are unrealistically jarring/faulty/much distracting and could be objectively fixed while respecting the general idea). I said I could be fine with less wings in Calembel if that was me to make the adjustment, true, but then again - just make it look real, with the wrong ones attached better (to better spots on structures) and/or of appropriate sizes and then it works but almost nothing gets drastically changed. It's just made more real then, vs faulty design like now. If something is hardly believable right in your face (like any of those extremely thin towers with 4x giant wings), then that's hardly subjective I think... because it's just awkwardly put together and that's the issue ??? Also, the designers didn't have some of the assets they had for MT soooo... they like... didn't have much choice but to overdo things? and it shows?

Can't appease everybody- that's my point. Art is Art. Prefer what you prefer. Compare the two Carn Dum's. I'm actually liking the new one more than the old one; I ran CD on Live then hopped over onto BR to test instances. Yes, I suppose that, lore-wise, maybe the older CD makes some more sense. But then again, all they really did for U35 is bring CD up to the standards of an Isengard. The sewers were delved deeper and feel a lot more like Isengard's deep pits; the gardens feel eerily beautiful while fetid at the same time. The place feels more like people lived there and that Mordirith had had plenty of centuries to work in secret while Angmar was thought defeated for a very long time. It felt like Sauron was actually responsible for recreating this place. But that's again, just my humble opinion- and just another viewer's subjective aesthetics. The original CD is really tiny - and you could fit it in a quarter of Osgiliath.

Cheers!

I didn't want to bring this up but man, you described it perfectly... Which is something I never disputed because THIS is exactly why I don't like it. Yes, OG CD makes more sense lore-wise. No, clearly it was not supposed to be an Isengard, it wasn't set in any valley but higher in the mountains with all terrain irregularities/difficulty/layout messiness a hard terrain like that would entail (conveyed somewhat old-school with old 2007 design but still, it was there), and it wasn't in Isengard's good shape either, far from it. Because no, Sauron wasn't responsible for recreating the place, just Mordirith, presumably, put in there in mockery by the WK, so they basically struggle for ages to even make that first strike against the backyard of Eriador which doesn't house any significant kingdom, after all... so this doesn't scream "Sauron cared about the place and made it powerful to attack Eriador" and the OG look didn't make me feel something like that either. No, people didn't exactly live there in perfectly functional cityscape conditions well-kept intact - think more Barad-dur living space (which wouldn't be exactly a square city either but a citadel of evil, with something like Mordath abyss beneath it) but wasted and 100 times worse, and they wouldn't have the kind of resources to gloriously rebuilt it like Sauron did his Barad-dur for Third Age.

And sure, you don't need to appease everybody, but this is kinda bonkers IMO, especially that in theory one could have built a cool new place like this new Carn Dum but without undermining what came before, so don't frame it as CD at least. A bit weird when a deeply established product that prides itself on its rich storytelling/growing world introduces alternative/retcon/reimagination/call it what you will to satisfy those who are fine with turning a blind eye to what made... better sense lore-wise. Not just Tolkien lore-wise but ideas/concept/approaches to such modern recreation that could have worked better with the game's own established narratives of things and geography of lvl 50 Angmar - that's still in the game, meaning new players will go through that experience and many will no doubt appreciate it. Imagine a book author telling me "actually, since alternatives are cool and we can imagine different things, now this place looks and functions like this! Clearly it was a very important, impressive cityscape citadel of Sauron in Third Age!" so suddenly no more chasms and narrow mountainous pathways in this chapter 33 of the book, but instead we get a plot to approach a wide city wall or go straight through Isengard-styled sewers. Now compare that to any delicate, nuanced changes regarding the wings which would still have you left with the same kind of showy Gondor, - or Last Homely House revamp, which is mostly adding detail - and see what I mean...


I think I would be fine with your water idea. About the settings - well, I don't use Ambient on high because it makes everything artificially illuminated by illuminating objects even if that's a darker scene. But then again, it's like you say, and Ambient even on max does not make game textures as full of color as they should be if judged by their actual texture files. My impression, though I am yet to make an actual comparison to prove this. But yeah, it appears to be a silly setup here and why the game still suffers from some dull coloring. Like, if anything, it should be improving on the texture file through the game texture generation, not... make it actually noticeably worse under most conditions in the game than its texture file viewed in windows explorer




PS: Can't get Bullroarer because I'm running out of space and I think it's not possible to run it on main game files or?

[MadeofLions]

...which is why I don't understand MoL's comment above and it kinda sounds like an excuse...

I can clarify it: the excuse I'm using is that I trust the smart, artistic people who originally made those choices and designed it that way on purpose. They haven't let me down yet!

MoL

[TesalionLortus]

I can clarify it: the excuse I'm using is that I trust the smart, artistic people who originally made those choices and designed it that way on purpose. They haven't let me down yet!

MoL

I mean, nobody is perfect and it's not like one is a bad designer for a few unpredicted mishaps (some things simply don't age well too, given the graphics, art style, textures etc of a given game). If some people can visually notice some unbelievability/awkwardness, well... we don't say these things because we want the game to look uglier. Sure not!

There are also actual time constraints, deadline etc, understandable, which is why I'm not going to report every single slightly mismatching piece of a wall or sets of floors slightly mismatching in height rather than creating perfect flat surfaces. Not as noticeable and passable. But there are certain key things that stick out in a bad way/aged badly and may literally ruin the scene, so why not gentle improvements.

[Phantion]

Simple question, Phantion - are those thin towers on San Marco supporting the weight of giant wings - and 2 pairs of them at that - awkwardly attached with no other support yet as large? I think not. Also, it's a focal point of the place, it's not like every single building, large or small, has the exact same deco of same sizes attached to them all around... and that's the only problem pointed out, it doesn't stick.

Because nobody of us really said we don't want any wings or any fancy deco - I guess literally nobody has meant that, in all these years regarding Gondor (which is why I don't understand MoL's comment above and it kinda sounds like an excuse... yes, it does feel like Middle-earth to me, still doesn't change the fact some of the design choices are unrealistically jarring/faulty/much distracting and could be objectively fixed while respecting the general idea). I said I could be fine with less wings in Calembel if that was me to make the adjustment, true, but then again - just make it look real, with the wrong ones attached better (to better spots on structures) and/or of appropriate sizes and then it works but almost nothing gets drastically changed. It's just made more real then, vs faulty design like now. If something is hardly believable right in your face (like any of those extremely thin towers with 4x giant wings), then that's hardly subjective I think... because it's just awkwardly put together and that's the issue ??? Also, the designers didn't have some of the assets they had for MT soooo... they like... didn't have much choice but to overdo things? and it shows?





I didn't want to bring this up but man, you described it perfectly... Which is something I never disputed because THIS is exactly why I don't like it. Yes, OG CD makes more sense lore-wise. No, clearly it was not supposed to be an Isengard, it wasn't set in any valley but higher in the mountains with all terrain irregularities/difficulty/layout messiness a hard terrain like that would entail (conveyed somewhat old-school with old 2007 design but still, it was there), and it wasn't in Isengard's good shape either, far from it. Because no, Sauron wasn't responsible for recreating the place, just Mordirith, presumably, put in there in mockery by the WK, so they basically struggle for ages to even make that first strike against the backyard of Eriador which doesn't house any significant kingdom, after all... so this doesn't scream "Sauron cared about the place and made it powerful to attack Eriador" and the OG look didn't make me feel something like that either. No, people didn't exactly live there in perfectly functional cityscape conditions well-kept intact - think more Barad-dur living space (which wouldn't be exactly a square city either but a citadel of evil, with something like Mordath abyss beneath it) but wasted and 100 times worse, and they wouldn't have the kind of resources to gloriously rebuilt it like Sauron did his Barad-dur for Third Age.

And sure, you don't need to appease everybody, but this is kinda bonkers IMO, especially that in theory one could have built a cool new place like this new Carn Dum but without undermining what came before, so don't frame it as CD at least. A bit weird when a deeply established product that prides itself on its rich storytelling/growing world introduces alternative/retcon/reimagination/call it what you will to satisfy those who are fine with turning a blind eye to what made... better sense lore-wise. Not just Tolkien lore-wise but ideas/concept/approaches to such modern recreation that could have worked better with the game's own established narratives of things and geography of lvl 50 Angmar - that's still in the game, meaning new players will go through that experience and many will no doubt appreciate it. Imagine a book author telling me "actually, since alternatives are cool and we can imagine different things, now this place looks and functions like this! Clearly it was a very important, impressive cityscape citadel of Sauron in Third Age!" so suddenly no more chasms and narrow mountainous pathways in this chapter 33 of the book, but instead we get a plot to approach a wide city wall or go straight through Isengard-styled sewers. Now compare that to any delicate, nuanced changes regarding the wings which would still have you left with the same kind of showy Gondor, - or Last Homely House revamp, which is mostly adding detail - and see what I mean...


I think I would be fine with your water idea. About the settings - well, I don't use Ambient on high because it makes everything artificially illuminated by illuminating objects even if that's a darker scene. But then again, it's like you say, and Ambient even on max does not make game textures as full of color as they should be if judged by their actual texture files. My impression, though I am yet to make an actual comparison to prove this. But yeah, it appears to be a silly setup here and why the game still suffers from some dull coloring. Like, if anything, it should be improving on the texture file through the game texture generation, not... make it actually noticeably worse under most conditions in the game than its texture file viewed in windows explorer




PS: Can't get Bullroarer because I'm running out of space and I think it's not possible to run it on main game files or?

RE- San Marco. It has plenty of domes. So does Hagia Sophia. Feel free to look them up. Some greatly admire them, myself among them, and some find them gaudy and obtuse. That's my point about subjective aesthetics.

RE- Angmar. OR - they really intended for a "resurgent" Angmar - it wasn't just some backwater project to make a mockery of the dead husk of Earnur (*why bother, Sauron?) but an actual intended revival working with the rise of the Dourhands and so forth to conquer Eriador in the North. But the game tech of 2007 was limited with what they could do with it at the time. Now, years later with the tech having developed, they want to reenvision what it should look like: what they actually intended. To my mind, the new CD is "my head-canon" - no one's persuading me otherwise

By the way, in Tolkien's lore: Angmar never once arose again in the books. It was considered an empty, desolate land. The game could go either "all in" or not at all. I happen to like the concept enough to see it done justice rather than half-watered-down. In Eriador in the books, literally, the only things going on were the Nine chasing Frodo around and some local threats like the Barrow wights - places you didn't go like Deadman's Dike, and some brigands. That was it. Bilbo strolled happily along to Rivendell 17 years before Frodo left the Shire without encountering any problems. The game needed to invent these things to work as a game. As far as Isengard goes, it was an ancient fortress comprised mostly of trees, the walls, and Orthanc - far older than CD. All the stuff Saruman did to that place, including all its huge pits, were recent operations performed by Orcs, etc. If Saruman's Orcs could do it, why not Angmar's Orcs? Orcs are Orcs. New CD feels old enough and new enough at the same time. You may not like it, and that's your right. But I do like it.

RE- the towers of Gondor. Ok, so you're not thrilled with having tons of swan wings on towers and want to play "architect of Notre Dame" on Gondor. Others don't have a problem with it. Some actually like it. I can't persuade you to like them. You can't persuade me - not - to like them. There you go

I can clarify it: the excuse I'm using is that I trust the smart, artistic people who originally made those choices and designed it that way on purpose. They haven't let me down yet!

MoL

Agreed!

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

RE- San Marco. It has plenty of domes. So does Hagia Sophia. Feel free to look them up. Some greatly admire them, myself among them, and some find them gaudy and obtuse. That's my point about subjective aesthetics.

We were never discussing any domes though. So... besides the point. How about we stick to what was said about the specifics of some of the wings?

RE- the towers of Gondor. Ok, so you're not thrilled with having tons of swan wings on towers and want to play "architect of Notre Dame" on Gondor. Others don't have a problem with it. Some actually like it. I can't persuade you to like them. You can't persuade me - not - to like them. There you go

Personally, I think some variety could do wonders, and maybe, personally, I would get rid of some of the wings. Wasn't the most important point ever made here, though. How about keeping the wings but attaching them better and maybe making them smaller where due? Like on those extremely thin towers that clearly can't support their weight and the entire thing should like collapse? (Or just... break down under its own weight, since they're attached though a tight spot yet so large). There are a lot of "make believe" things in games but it's important to at least try. Something as unrealistic and silly right in my face clearly isn't a decent feel in the scenery. And it ruins my screenshots

RE- Angmar. OR - they really intended for a "resurgent" Angmar - it wasn't just some backwater project to make a mockery of the dead husk of Earnur (*why bother, Sauron?) but an actual intended revival working with the rise of the Dourhands and so forth to conquer Eriador in the North. But the game tech of 2007 was limited with what they could do with it at the time. Now, years later with the tech having developed, they want to reenvision what it should look like: what they actually intended. To my mind, the new CD is "my head-canon" - no one's persuading me otherwise

Then they shouldn't have made Eriador so weak... so I don't see what you describe as the original intention (not super conscious anyway). Sure, they added stuff to Eriador but it's still weak weak weak as a military entity. That new Carn Dum? Eriador wouldn't stand a chance, the Hillmen would not be able to rebel as efficiently as they did (we didn't singlehandedly toppled Isengard either... our efforts to undermine Saruman pretty much failed, ultimately!), the resources/industry of this new version of Carn Dum would be plentiful and like a clockwork (say, like Isengard's) and Sauron would not need Isengard at all but immediately hit Rohan with perfectly bred Angmar hordes from the West. Not even the storyline supports this claim you made that this was the intention - there is this crazy power struggle in Angmar, Amarthiel, Mordirtith, Amarthiel, Mordirith and Sauron is just like "ah, whatever, do your best Amarthiel" and WK just sends Mordirith back anyway. Sure, he cares... passively and from afar. But clearly, in a larger picture, the idea here wasn't that there were literal legions of 10 000 marching out of Angmar on Eriador... Even the interiors of OG Carn Dum were like CLEARLY ruined towers in bad bad condition, and it's not something that was due to "bad tech" - it was a design choice. An artist actually had to come up with this exact idea to convey the space

The game could go either "all in" or not at all.

It went in, all right. It had a well-balanced Eriador vs a well-balanced Angmar, both in somewhat believable balance (Angmar/CD that reminds me of a pale shadow of what old Angmar - that could rival ARNOR - was). Currently, with the new approach, it's like CD is more powerful and functional than Isengard or - oh the irony - the in-game Barad-dur, not to mention other fortresses that we have currently in the in-game Mordor. Which is a bit... ugh, no, it shouldn't be like this! XD

As far as Isengard goes, it was an ancient fortress comprised mostly of trees, the walls, and Orthanc - far older than CD. All the stuff Saruman did to that place, including all its huge pits, were recent operations performed by Orcs, etc. If Saruman's Orcs could do it, why not Angmar's Orcs? Orcs are Orcs.

Isengard built by Numenoreans and very solid tower of Orthanc, with the infrastructure kept well by the Wizard and his adequate servants (even before he had any orcs in employ). Orcs managed to do the rest, sure, but the place never had to be rebuilt. Angmar had to be. And something like this takes a lot of resources and organization ( to do this decently anyway and OG space was - adequately - far from decent) and orcs aren't exactly human architects. Any pockets of remaining cultists growing in power, gaining domain over the hillmen again, all that... would take time. Orcs realistically aren't exactly doing things out of kindness either and they were supposed to be out of Gundabad - as confirmed by MoL and in recent storylines - so they would have their own Gundabad space and Vales to invade (which would be better for Sauron anyway) before some of them were swayed to participate in Angmar's revival.

Anyway, I'm not exactly against the idea of improvements anyway, just make it fit the space and not... overdo. Plus it's sad that with this approach they're literally letting the old lvl 50 space rot (as it stands because I doubt they're going to revisit Angmar yet again?) but go all out (in mismatching ways) in a "bubble new canon" space. Instead, you could have actually made the old space work too. They can't move too many things around and replace models because concerns plus pathways and existing quests - but that's such a good failsafe actually... but you could basically try to make it work and "figure out" the space according to modern design philosophy. Make these mountains and cliffsides more real. That first gate to the first section, what's behind it? Some wall and buildings? Ok, maybe that was an old guardhouse? - let's add some things and make it appear more so. A piece of a wall alongside this cliff, no context? Add some doorways, make it look like there is a mountain complex here. Add more detail in general. Etc. etc. And like I said elsewhere... an irregular layout of a city high in the mountains/between mountains, with narrow pathways, is NOT an unrealistic concept

Well, I really didn't want to talk about Angmar, but you pushed my buttons haha Well, maybe the devs should make the game somewhat mod-friendly, like housing works but with choices of many common assets and places of the world to tweak, so the perfectionist in me could actually correct the OG Angmar myself and maybe then I could share the mod with you and perhaps you would come to love it :P (Well, I mean... not exactly like housing works - just release mod tools based on your in-house toolset! xD)

[SingularityNow]

I can clarify it: the excuse I'm using is that I trust the smart, artistic people who originally made those choices and designed it that way on purpose. They haven't let me down yet!

MoL

Tried riding from Edoras to Entwade recently?

[MadeofLions]

Tried riding from Edoras to Entwade recently?

Doesn't bother me! It had to go somewhere!

MoL

[Aleziana]

I disagree, but I guess that doesn't matter because your opinion is apparently unchallengeable.

Dude...

Minas Tirith is barely a copy of helm's deep.

Let me explain it.

When you look at something you have to understand what you are looking at. In the case of Minas Tirith and many other Gondorian Assets you don't understand, it's an eyesore. They have used so badly assets consolidation technic that you cannot understand on what is a wall and what is a house and what is any of individual building. You can compare Lotros MT with movie ones and understand 100% what from the 2 is art.

There are countless examples of mod developers who could had created MT far better with lotro's assets without even get paid for it. I my self could had made MT far better without get any dollar than them and I accept any challenge if I got the tools to do it.

It seems that you don't understand that the reason we like MT as it is . We accept it as part of the game we love. And that doesn't mean we can't criticize badly their lazyness.

What SSG expect?? To make easy money out of mediocrity and have us cheer them and congratulate them? We cheer them when they do something good we criticize when they do a bad job. They live in America in a country where money runs faster than any place in the world they have everything in their hands to make a perfect work but they chose not to. So yes I have high expectations from them and I won't accept mediocrity from them.

We are talking about J RR Tolkien here not in GW2 or WoW or Game of thrones or any other pretender!!!

I guess you also like Rohan homestead that ruining immersion there .But yes " it has to go somewhere " so low soooooo low mediocrity everywhere....

[k40rne]

Aesthetics are subjective. I've seen it both ways.

But are we forgetting that Tolkien kind of, sort of viewed Gondor in light of not only Venice but the eastern Roman Empire (*later Byzantine)?

Byzantine architecture tended to be that showy, gaudy, tons of sparkling domes everywhere. I've seen San Marco in Venice and what that looks like. Substitute the exaggerated domes and such for Elendil heads and swan wings, and there you go.

Some prefer the more rugged castles of northwestern Europe. Others actually - like - *gasps* something more showy. I'd also point out that, as far as architectural uniformity (*tons of feature X) goes, that's Greece with all its blue and white buildings all over the place. Not every culture is informed by a Beowulf-era Mead Hall or grim castle in the north-lands. To me, would Calembel look more impressive or less impressive without those swan wings? Less - but that's to me, because hey, it's subjective.

Fortunately for me, I happen to like both styles Also - be careful what you ask for. Often, as we're seeing with Gondor's waters on Bullroarer right now, or as we saw far earlier with Swanfleet's waters, the attempt to "fix" something aesthetic could actually make it much worse - though only in the eyes of some rather than others. Can't appease everybody- that's my point. Art is Art. Prefer what you prefer. Compare the two Carn Dum's. I'm actually liking the new one more than the old one; I ran CD on Live then hopped over onto BR to test instances. Yes, I suppose that, lore-wise, maybe the older CD makes some more sense. But then again, all they really did for U35 is bring CD up to the standards of an Isengard. The sewers were delved deeper and feel a lot more like Isengard's deep pits; the gardens feel eerily beautiful while fetid at the same time. The place feels more like people lived there and that Mordirith had had plenty of centuries to work in secret while Angmar was thought defeated for a very long time. It felt like Sauron was actually responsible for recreating this place. But that's again, just my humble opinion- and just another viewer's subjective aesthetics. The original CD is really tiny - and you could fit it in a quarter of Osgiliath.

Cheers!

Of course aesthetics is subjective, it's basically tautological.

I like those Byzantine designs you speak of too, and I also like the new Carn Dum as well as the old one. I appreciate many different styles, but the problem with those wings is they look oversized and cartoonish & the reliefs of Elendil in Dol Amroth need better texturing at the very least.

I can guarantee you if they redesigned it today, they'd use many more assets, because they have more available now.