Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[TesalionLortus]

There were bugs in the old version of the map that required updating locations on it - updating the map to the new style was the easiest way to resolve those bugs.

Ah! Thanks Well, that was tricky, I would have never figured it out

Also, true... the map image would need to be regenerated with the funny typo fixed. Or just rename it Downholt now everywhere in the game :P

[provamail10]

@Scenario, will the new landmass of King's Gondor, like the dwarf fortress, be backported to the pre-battle version?

[TesalionLortus]

@Scenario, will the new landmass of King's Gondor, like the dwarf fortress, be backported to the pre-battle version?

On the stream Scenario said it's "to be decided" - if they have time and there are no difficulties.

More important question is whether all these new rocks will be backported + removed mountains behind cities, new pathways and such - to make two Gondors belong to the same reality. Entire new areas like a huge valley with the fortress, given that they would probably need to put in some lvl 105 mobs, I can accept if they were to be accessed from a teleport added onto pre-battle version - if there is no time, I mean, though would have been cool if that was ported too, like in Azanulbizar update!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

On the stream Scenario said it's "to be decided" - if they have time and there are no difficulties.

More important question is whether all these new rocks will be backported + removed mountains behind cities, new pathways and such - to make two Gondors belong to the same reality. Entire new areas like a huge valley with the fortress, given that they would probably need to put in some lvl 105 mobs, I can accept if they were to be accessed from a teleport added onto pre-battle version - if there is no time, I mean, though would have been cool if that was ported too, like in Azanulbizar update!

The valley wit hthe Dwarf fortress isn't really new, its on the old version of the map. They just made it accessible.

[TesalionLortus]

The valley wit hthe Dwarf fortress isn't really new, its on the old version of the map. They just made it accessible.

Not in concept, and not in shape, but clearly they were more of an underdeveloped terrain that you couldn't take a good look into, so no doubt they've also done some reshaping and from-scratch work and revaluation in these spaces. Wasn't just bringing down the impassable and work done.

[Celebrawn]

It would be a bit odd for a whole dwarf fortress to suddenly appear right after the destructiuon of the ring, where it was not there, or not accessible before. I could see the quarry being completely new, as the rebuilding of Gondor has begun. But hopefully the fortress will at least be on the pre-battle version of the landscape, even if it's not accessible. Any major changes to the lansdscape should be reflected in some way on the other version I think.

[Scenario]

Is there a fix for the 'Downholt' typo in the queue?

I believe so.

[Scenario]

Gondor is big, our plans for this year are big, and at the end of the day, we may not have the time, World Designer availability and QA resources available to backport in a way that doesn't just introduce a whole slew of new bugs. Backporting will really depend on how quickly we build out everything else that is on our plate for this year. And because of that, I am making no promises as to whether or not it will happen. One of the hardest things for us as designers to do is curtail our passion in the face of the reality of time and schedule - and it is better for us to focus on the new things we have to build first and foremost.

[provamail10]

At the end of the day, Gondor is big, our plans for this year are big, and at the end of the day, we may not have the time, World Designer availability and QA resources available to backport in a way that doesn't just introduce a whole slew of new bugs. Backporting will really depend on how quickly we build out everything else that is on our plate for this year. And because of that, I am making no promises as to whether or not it will happen. One of the hardest things for us as designers to do is curtail our passion in the face of the reality of time and schedule - and it is better for us to focus on the new things we have to build first and foremost.

Thanks for answering our question as straightforward as you could!

[TesalionLortus]

QA resources available to backport in a way that doesn't just introduce a whole slew of new bugs.

So should we just help with bug reporting? I can do it!
In truth, I can also pay extra for Gondor Pre-Battle "Dev Time Package" to make that happen...

Backporting will really depend on how quickly we build out everything else that is on our plate for this year. And because of that, I am making no promises as to whether or not it will happen. One of the hardest things for us as designers to do is curtail our passion in the face of the reality of time and schedule - and it is better for us to focus on the new things we have to build first and foremost.

Or you could have made this actually a part of your plate for this year and withhold something else. (We wouldn't even know, like a part of Anfalas or one of the valleys). Business is business but that's also part of this Middle-earth and, well, your business. I think the enthusiasm of this thread and general "growing the world" vibes are recognized by SSG but worth to note something like "filling the gaps" isn't "filling the gaps from one space on another and that's just that." It's not just that. It's a sense of being in an actual living growing world and that feeling may quickly start to fall apart once we have too many jarring differences between things. Plus, you've built expectations and good world-keeper standards with Azanulbizar, Mordor Besieged etc where all things match perfectly since same world. Sure, many people might not be here whining about such things, and many people are hardly here with us on the messages boards :P But I think it's mega weird and was shocked you haven't even seriously considered this as a serious goal post worth some sacrifices... or that you did not start such redecorating on pre-battle to make it more feasible/easier...

I've been in Gondor today and I like these rocks, took a neat screenshot and they look nice above that little river right next to MT - but yes, that's right next to MT, which narratively transitions players to After right from Before version and... suddenly all these rocks splintered over the place and visible from the city walls, in which there is still a lot of after battle questing to do... and suddenly you see rocks everywhere that weren't there just a few quests before...

Or take Belfalas for example. Just like with Cardolan, which I was very excited about because it took all these walls down including in housing, I think the idea of Gondor revisited naturally evokes in many if not all of us such feelings (based on your previous track record no less) that we might see the old space grow. Housing included. Whatever you do, I always imagined that there might be a greater, richer view from Belfalas Housing into that Northern direction, whether accessible or not. But not being able to backport changes would mean we're just stuck with a premium house we paid for (no less!) to stare at outdated, not given such care, version of the space. Speaking of housing, another thing - if you are actually redoing entire Belfalas... hopefully you don't redo the housing as some kind of different version where I don't own a house because that would be... another weirdness. Clearly I purchased a house in Gondor, so I live in Gondor and have the right to feel like I live in Gondor in Middle-earth right? Whether that's after the battle of Pelargil or under the King's reign? Because time passes, in narrative, but I can always go back to my house and feel like it belongs to the same time regardless. Housing areas are kind of supposed to be like that. Would be weird if there are different things going on there now, or worse, some mob camps all of a sudden, and my house is not there anymore

So pleaaase please, pretty please, reconsider, conceptually and world-design-wise, all these things you're doing that may end up cheapening and distorting the integrity of the world... and maybe just be a tiny bit less ambitious in "covering ground" if there is that danger of utterly destroying the integrity. Because I disagree that building new things in new maps/versions is all that matters "first and foremost." This isn't just some sequel, with new approach to things every sequel. You're actually expanding the world Or so you did, until recently with merely a few such inconsistencies between spaces and most of them tolerable/not really in your face.

[k40rne]

Anyways - it does sound like, oddly enough, they'll be those alternative versions of West Gondor as well. They may not - change - anything the earlier artists did. But I'd hope they'd consider - adding - some more details (*like . . . the statues of certain Kings of Gondor who look like Swan Knights) and things of that nature. It would be nice to visit an Edhellond that isn't swarmed with Corsairs - maybe the Avorrim come out of their cave to remember what once was? Some "Tales of Yore: Amroth and Nimrodel" instances?

After finally logging in & seeing the huge changes they've just made to the Last Homely House, which didn't need any changes, i'm even more irritated by this lack of willingness to update Dol Amorth & Pelargir, presumable the bridge to the island will have been added at least.

The changes to the last Homely House are almost a complete overhaul & now its very 'colourful', where as before it was quite natural and minimalistic. It takes some getting used to; some of it is well done, but why can't they take the same approach to Gondorian cities....

[TesalionLortus]

It takes some getting used to; some of it is well done, but why can't they take the same approach to Gondorian cities....

Most likely because their favorite is a one-way street maybe... add clutter and saturate, replace something minimal with more shiny and add more stuff... but never *just* remove, slightly recalibrate, give texture a facelift or replace... :P Idk, maybe

[Elmagor]

After finally logging in & seeing the huge changes they've just made to the Last Homely House, which didn't need any changes, i'm even more irritated by this lack of willingness to update Dol Amorth & Pelargir, presumable the bridge to the island will have been added at least.

The changes to the last Homely House are almost a complete overhaul & now its very 'colourful', where as before it was quite natural and minimalistic. It takes some getting used to; some of it is well done, but why can't they take the same approach to Gondorian cities....

Why they change last Homely House - it was explained during one of previous streams.

[k40rne]

Why they change last Homely House - it was explained during one of previous streams.

I never saw that explanation & I've watched all of them, but the point still stands. They can make all kinds of rationalisations for why they do x, but they still are not open to listening about a long standing issue they finally had an opportunity to correct.

[Elmagor]

I never saw that explanation & I've watched all of them, but the point still stands. They can make all kinds of rationalisations for why they do x, but they still are not open to listening about a long standing issue they finally had an opportunity to correct.

Dol Amroth and Pelargir have issues and needs total revamp with their look? Their issues wasn't with graphic, they have issues with past endgame content stuff

[MadeofLions]

but they still are not open to listening about a long standing issue they finally had an opportunity to correct.

I wouldn't mistake disagreeing for not listening. I just don't agree that this is a long-standing issue that needs changing. Of course, I'm not the one responsible for building the cities, so it doesn't really matter what I think about it; but I don't think I'm alone on this one. As for 'finally having an opportunity to correct it,' I don't think that's right. If the World team did what you wanted, and redesigned the cities you don't like, but didn't redesign them in the original version of Gondor, folk would complain that they didn't match, and weren't consistent. And if they then redid them in the old version, people would be upset at the (significant) amount of time they spent on it. It's another one of those balancing acts, where not everyone is going to like everything - but you do what you can.

MoL

[k40rne]

Dol Amroth and Pelargir have issues and needs total revamp with their look? Their issues wasn't with graphic, they have issues with past endgame content stuff

No, Pelargir is nice, but it could certainly could do with expanding a town around it and tweaking, Dol Amroth needs better detailing & tweaking, Ost Angelbad, Calembel, Linhir all need tweaking too. I didn't see enough of the new Arnach, Tumladen & Imloth Melui to note if they tweaked them (but a lot of work was done on those three, so it would be sad if they hadn't cleaned them up). We'd need to see a comparison. Pelargir did look good from that vantage point, so maybe they did remove or minimise some of those tower wings or maybe the angle was just a good one, hard to tell without proper inspection. We didn't really get to see Pelargir, we saw none of Linhir or Ost Angelbad or the myriad of other towns & settlements in Lower Lebennin.

[wispsong]

After finally logging in & seeing the huge changes they've just made to the Last Homely House, which didn't need any changes, i'm even more irritated by this lack of willingness to update Dol Amorth & Pelargir, presumable the bridge to the island will have been added at least.

The changes to the last Homely House are almost a complete overhaul & now its very 'colourful', where as before it was quite natural and minimalistic. It takes some getting used to; some of it is well done, but why can't they take the same approach to Gondorian cities....

After seeing the changes to the Last Homely House I rather not have them do any changes to anything existing.

[k40rne]

I wouldn't mistake disagreeing for not listening. I just don't agree that this is a long-standing issue that needs changing. Of course, I'm not the one responsible for building the cities, so it doesn't really matter what I think about it; but I don't think I'm alone on this one. As for 'finally having an opportunity to correct it,' I don't think that's right. If the World team did what you wanted, and redesigned the cities you don't like, but didn't redesign them in the original version of Gondor, folk would complain that they didn't match, and weren't consistent. And if they then redid them in the old version, people would be upset at the (significant) amount of time they spent on it. It's another one of those balancing acts, where not everyone is going to like everything - but you do what you can.

MoL

I understand it's a balancing act, but how can you justify a complete facelift for the Last Homely House, which looked very elegant before with it's pastel colour palette, I think there have been some improvements in a few assets added, but the colour is a bit off. But I'm fine with that, I'll get used to it, I'm not attached to these things. I'm not saying to redo the entire Gondorian design, just tweak it sensibly. Dol Amroth doesn't need redoing, it has wonderful aspects to it like the Library, Citadel, Harbour, Garden, Causeway etc. There are just a few problem areas in it's detailing, I'd have thought anyone could see it needed a bit of refinement. But the one thing it definitely needs is the Elendil reliefs having a better texturing to blend more and I noticed these reliefs are in Tumladen too, but they are more sparsely used it seems.

[MadeofLions]

I'd have thought anyone could see it needed a bit of refinement.

Welcome to the wide world of everyone having their own opinions - it makes game design (and team-wide content review meetings) especially challenging.

As for the new Last Homely House, I like that the new one doesn't have as many loading screens. I was less excited when I had to make sure all my old quests still functioned and hadn't broken in the refit.

MoL

[k40rne]

After seeing the changes to the Last Homely House I rather not have them do any changes to anything existing.

The colour palette is very different & it will take some getting used to, but I don't hate it, it's not in poor taste, although some of you will find it very gaudy because of the pastels used in it's previous incarnation.

[Starliteyes]

I love the new Last Homely House!! It more closely resembles my view of it as it relates to the books. It just seems more natural to me, and a bit less cartoonish. (Less like the animated Hobbit movie). Thank you for the work!

[Hierona]

Question, King's Gondor will come with U36 and the rest with U35. Is there something planned to do with zones around U37? Might make the task of the Umbar expansion a bit more realistic this year. Would be cool if instead of through Dor-en-Ernil we go north of that to Ethring Vale to expand Gondor a bit.

[TesalionLortus]

MoL is usually very reasonable when he posts but I really can't see that here, he says one thing and then shoots himself in the foot in the next sentence

As for 'finally having an opportunity to correct it,' I don't think that's right.

That's totally right and certainly you don't shy away from such things. How about those new rocks everywhere in King's Gondor? wink wink Or are they narratively justified? Disguised Corsair survivors under rocky blankets?

If the World team did what you wanted, and redesigned the cities you don't like, but didn't redesign them in the original version of Gondor, folk would complain that they didn't match, and weren't consistent.

Little tweaks in cities, brand new rocks everywhere, cliffsides removed behind a city... I don't see any difference. All deviations. And we didn't get any promises you'll be able to backport the latter... so I don't even care as much about those towers anymore because you're creating even bigger concern here... so I hope you can backport all there is to backport... and we can go back to discussing wings at another time...

Anyway. On top of all that, you're the ones choosing where to go and how to do things and in what capacity. While generally excited about ideas of going back to Gondor and there has been plenty of speculation about how that might happen, I don't think anyone predicted/asked you to redo the entire Gondor... so surely you should be aware of such concerns of consistency and treat them less lightly, if that's what you endeavored to do.

And if they then redid them in the old version, people would be upset at the (significant) amount of time they spent on it. It's another one of those balancing acts, where not everyone is going to like everything - but you do what you can.

Were there people complaining you lost time on redesigning Last homely House? Is there a backlash because of new Carn Dum in a bubble that you can only look at from an overview? (well, I did offer some constructive thoughts.. but far from there being a backlash and mass accusations of time lost). So I don't see it. Also, not so long ago you had the time to make water terribly blue as a bug fix, how about slightly tweaking some towers as part of bug fixing then, not much different I guess. Actual visual bad applies or misaligned/not well attached assets are essentially almost bugs too.

What's particularly jarring is that we've never asked for a complete redesign though. I would be happy to settle on very gentle tweaks, just making things look more natural and real-sized someplaces where they don't, so it all blends together nicely in scenery and on screenshots, that's all. (Regarding the wings and maybe some other touches in some Gondor cities)

Welcome to the wide world of everyone having their own opinions - it makes game design (and team-wide content review meetings) especially challenging.

Some of these are not just opinions and tastes though. I don't mind differing opinions. But there are simply some things that just plain look bad in a "technical" sense that can't be "rationalized" by taste - old-school texturing, stretched texturing, mismatching color or "architectural" style of assets, weirdly attached in some places that could use a better spot/angle, like with some of the wings, for example. And I doubt anyone would hate any of such tweaks since they are not supposed to be large scale revamp where you guys just throw everything away and replace with completely different ideas but just... gentle adjustments.

[MadeofLions]

Some of these are not just opinions and tastes though.

It's all about learning which opinions and tastes to disregard and which ones to pay attention to, and it becomes easier and easier to learn that as time goes on.

old-school texturing, stretched texturing, mismatching color or "architectural" style of assets, weirdly attached in some places that could use a better spot/angle

Most of those sound like reasonable bug-fixes. It's the clamoring of 'I hate it! It all sucks!' that I've had issues with over the years.

But I am going to once again bow out of the discussion, because it's not really my area. I'm excited about the things to come, and I want you all to be excited about them too.

MoL