Who do Devs listen to for mastery/mit/morale changes and the like?

[RustyCuyler24]

I would seriously like to know who they listen to. My kinship on Crickhollow, Iron Rangers, had been steadily beating Sagroth on Tier 3 at a regular rate. After Wednesday's changes, we can't even get the boss down to 75% morale because all the adds also have higher morale and mitigations.

I'm thinking SSG devs only listen to the highest of high tier raiders when they take advice as to how to adjust enemy stats. I think this is an utterly and absolutely terrible way to approach balancing when it comes to PvE balancing. Only listening to one specific portion of the player base is a good way to make everything far more difficult for everyone else.

Devs and anyone else, run Sagroth T3 with "T3 HH READY" gear and see what happens.

[subadar]

they listen to top raiders/players because they speak the devs language, namely they know all the skills, how they work, how to use them etc etc.

but mostly game producers have a vision of the game they want, they make it and invite us to play.

personally i'm getting a little tired of the yo-yo balance and the live playtesting they make us all do, its not very fun

then again, lots of players dont even bother with raids or pvp so all the changes are completely irrelevant to them

[swordsnotwords]

I agree with this completely. Most of the players are not doing much content above t2 or even t1. Most are casual players who want to enjoy the game. So why is it that average content is suddenly ridiculously hard now?

As Orion said, T2 is supposed to be "average." Clearly with these changes, T2 is not "average" and is actually quite challenging for Sagroth. We were not able to even get the boss to 75% either. At least compared to the people on my server, we are above average, and still are bellow what Orion claims should be "average."

I seriously question who this content is for. Is this for a small group of an even smaller group of players on my server who do T5 content regularly? Or is this to give the average player something to beat their heads against and make little progress until the next update?

[RustyCuyler24]

they listen to top raiders/players because they speak the devs language, namely they know all the skills, how they work, how to use them etc etc.

but mostly game producers have a vision of the game they want, they make it and invite us to play.

personally i'm getting a little tired of the yo-yo balance and the live playtesting they make us all do, its not very fun

then again, lots of players dont even bother with raids or pvp so all the changes are completely irrelevant to them

I know, most players aren't interested in endgame stuff or even getting to endgame, but those of us that are interested in it, we're not exactly happy about the fact that we can't do the stuff we were able to do before successfully because the devs listened to a certain group of people and they decided that those of us that are not in that group of people can no longer successfully complete or even come close to completing the things we were able to complete long before the most recent update.

EDIT: As it stands, only the most ELITE of elite T4+ raiders can even complete T3 Sagroth. That is not how things should be.

[swordsnotwords]

I know, most players aren't interested in endgame stuff or even getting to endgame, but those of us that are interested in it, we're not exactly happy about the fact that we can't do the stuff we were able to do before successfully because the devs listened to a certain group of people and they decided that those of us that are not in that group of people can no longer successfully complete or even come close to completing the things we were able to complete long before the most recent update.

Would more players be interested in endgame content if it was doable for them?

[RustyCuyler24]

Would more players be interested in endgame content if it was doable for them?

This topic is about endgame content. If you are not at endgame, why are you replying?

EDIT: Your comment deserves a topic of its own I think...

[writingminstrel12321]

Sagroth is end game...

[RustyCuyler24]

Still haven't seen a legit reply as to why everything T3-ish raiders had gotten used to has to be FAR more difficult than it used to be.

As I said, T3 Sagroth was almost on farm level for me and my kin, now we can barely get the boss to 75%.

Why is that? I think it's because the Devs only listen to T4+ raiders when it comes to changes that will affect every tier below them rather than actually playing the game at a T3 and lower level themselves, and none of us that aren't at a T4+ raider level are very appreciative of it.

[swordsnotwords]

Still haven't seen a legit reply as to why everything T3-ish raiders had gotten used to has to be FAR more difficult than it used to be. As I said, T3 Sagroth was almost on farm level for me and my kin, now we can barely get the boss to 75%. Why is that? I think it's because the Devs only listen to T4+ raiders when it comes to changes that will affect every tier below them rather than actually playing the game at a T3 and lower level themselves, and none of us that aren't at a T4+ raider level are very appreciative of it.

If I had to go out on a limb, they want to make it comparable when they release the next raid. Once we get new gear from the raid, it will be easier, so we can be doing T3s instead of T4s. But again, why does this even matter?

[theultimatekyle]

Don't blame this fiasco on the raiders. Literally no one asked for this change, and top raiders are complaining on ghyns too. This is an example of a change with zero testing or calculations performed before hand. Literally just throwing #### on a wall to see what sticks.

[RustyCuyler24]

If I had to go out on a limb, they want to make it comparable when they release the next raid. Once we get new gear from the raid, it will be easier, so we can be doing T3s instead of T4s. But again, why does this even matter?

If something affects a T3 raid group to the point they can no longer successfully complete something they were successfully completing on a regular basis, that also trickles down to everything at every level at every tier below them... Why would this not matter?

[DoRonRon]

No one until they need an injection of some ego boost and then it's anyone with a better parse from some sources or not as many defeats as usual on landscape from another source. All focus off on something else between times.

With no means or capacity to test any of it, it's just random numbers and then sit back with the popcorn and a soda to watch the fallout. The pendulum would not have to swing so far with some reasonable competence of playing it. We've not had any suggestion that there is any, just the opposite.

Treating the game like you only want to touch it with a 10 foot barge pole over getting stuck in to it is not helping, it never has.

[RustyCuyler24]

No one until they need an injection of some ego boost and then it's anyone with a better parse from some sources or not as many defeats as usual on landscape from another source. All focus off on something else between times.

With no means or capacity to test any of it, it's just random numbers and then sit back with the popcorn and a soda to watch the fallout. The pendulum would not have to swing so far with some reasonable competence of playing it. We've not had any suggestion that there is any, just the opposite.

Treating the game like you only want to touch it with a 10 foot barge pole over getting stuck in to it is not helping, it never has.

It's very clear to me the devs don't listen to the community as a whole, only a select group of people, and I'd very much like to know who that select group of people is, and for the devs to be transparent about it.

[SSG_Orion]

There is no select group to which we listen. Our feedback, experience, and testing informs the majority of the decisions we make around balance. After the initial change to mastery went live with U35, there were a number of experiences in our internal testing, and the initial feedback and experiences expressed in-game, here on the forums, and our our own experiences, that we felt we had reduced some of the difficulty across the game. As I stated in another related thread, we are monitoring this recent changwe If we were overzealous in our adjustments, we will, happily admit our mistake, and adjust accordingly.

[wsnyderco]

There is no select group to which we listen. Our feedback, experience, and testing informs the majority of the decisions we make around balance. After the initial change to mastery went live with U35, there were a number of experiences in our internal testing, and the initial feedback and experiences expressed in-game, here on the forums, and our our own experiences, that we felt we had reduced some of the difficulty across the game. As I stated in another related thread, we are monitoring this recent changwe If we were overzealous in our adjustments, we will, happily admit our mistake, and adjust accordingly.

I am sorry but I am not sure what you guys are playing or with whom you are playing, but none of these changes should have ever left the drawing board. Your testing in my personal opinion is inadequate and you should be ashamed of the product you have released.

[zipfile]

Who do they listen to?

Better people. Simple as that.

They shouldn't listen to us anyway, we don't know what's good or wrong when it comes to higher tiers.

On us, we have to adapt and learn. If you have a problem with that....well...I'm sorry I guess.

[Fadil]

There is no select group to which we listen. Our feedback, experience, and testing informs the majority of the decisions we make around balance. After the initial change to mastery went live with U35, there were a number of experiences in our internal testing, and the initial feedback and experiences expressed in-game, here on the forums, and our our own experiences, that we felt we had reduced some of the difficulty across the game. As I stated in another related thread, we are monitoring this recent changwe If we were overzealous in our adjustments, we will, happily admit our mistake, and adjust accordingly.

Just my 2 cents, as someone who usually raids tier 2-3. Yes this change was overzealous imo.
I can to a certain degree understand the mit change, to compensate for the higher dps people did.
But who exactly did that higher dps?
I read people stating they were doing 700-800k dps, but how many players play on that level?
Maybe a small group of end game raiders who raid tier 4, 5 can do such high dps..
So now you changed the game to react to the insane dps some were doing, but you're affecting the gameplay of all players.
For most of us normal mortals who didnt all of a sudden do insane dps, we now find ourselves stuck on bosses we could easily do before the last update.

My kin (we have a very casual raidgroup) did HH tier 3 tonight, a raid we could finish a few weeks ago but now it was so much harder, it was sad.
This doesn't motivate people, it makes people angry and disappointed.
I have no desire to raid tier 4 and 5, or even to do Sargoth or SV tier 4 and 5. I'm happy with doing tier 2 and 3. But if we cant even do that anymore due
to this change, I think you went overboard with that 25%.
Make it the mit change and maybe 5% more morale, thats more than enough. And if it isnt, you could add another 5% later.

[RustyCuyler24]

Who do they listen to?

Better people. Simple as that.

They shouldn't listen to us anyway, we don't know what's good or wrong when it comes to higher tiers.

On us, we have to adapt and learn. If you have a problem with that....well...I'm sorry I guess.

Please define "Better people." That was my intention when I started this topic.

I, along with many others, would like to know who these "better people" are, and how we could become a part of these "better people" that the devs listen to over the people who are not a part of that group.

It boils down to transparency. The non-T5 raiding community would like some transparency as to whose advice is being taken when the non-T5 raiding community's gameplay is being affected by the T5 raiding community's advice to devs, if that's the case, which myself and many others believe is the case.

The ENTIRETY of the community, at each level and tier, should NOT be forced to adapt to what an extremely small percentage of the community says is best for THEM.

[zipfile]

The ENTIRETY of the community, at each level and tier, should NOT be forced to adapt to what an extremely small percentage of the community says is best for THEM.

Give me an example of a highly successful game that's influenced by the average player when it comes to game balance and I'll give you a better example of where that's not the case.

[deadwoodd]

Just my 2 cents, as someone who usually raids tier 2-3. Yes this change was overzealous imo.
I can to a certain degree understand the mit change, to compensate for the higher dps people did.
But who exactly did that higher dps?
I read people stating they were doing 700-800k dps, but how many players play on that level?
Maybe a small group of end game raiders who raid tier 4, 5 can do such high dps..
So now you changed the game to react to the insane dps some were doing, but you're affecting the gameplay of all players.
For most of us normal mortals who didnt all of a sudden do insane dps, we now find ourselves stuck on bosses we could easily do before the last update.

My kin (we have a very casual raidgroup) did HH tier 3 tonight, a raid we could finish a few weeks ago but now it was so much harder, it was sad.
This doesn't motivate people, it makes people angry and disappointed.
I have no desire to raid tier 4 and 5, or even to do Sargoth or SV tier 4 and 5. I'm happy with doing tier 2 and 3. But if we cant even do that anymore due
to this change, I think you went overboard with that 25%.
Make it the mit change and maybe 5% more morale, thats more than enough. And if it isnt, you could add another 5% later.

Please define "Better people." That was my intention when I started this topic.

I, along with many others, would like to know who these "better people" are, and how we could become a part of these "better people" that the devs listen to over the people who are not a part of that group.

It boils down to transparency. The non-T5 raiding community would like some transparency as to whose advice is being taken when the non-T5 raiding community's gameplay is being affected by the T5 raiding community's advice to devs, if that's the case, which myself and many others believe is the case.

The ENTIRETY of the community, at each level and tier, should NOT be forced to adapt to what an extremely small percentage of the community says is best for THEM.

Just to be clear, this wasn't asked for by T4/T5 raiders. No one brought this up as a needed change or something that was necessary. This was brought on by the devs themselves specifically because of their idea of class balance in correlation to the mastery changes. As much as I disagree with the raw numbers used for the changes, I can assure you that the changes weren't made to placate a certain group of players.

[Plidak]

I would seriously like to know who they listen to. .

There is your answer.





Shortly, to ppl from Prime and Odisey (Evernight) They even share discord, and are more active there, than on forums.
Thats why we have such a mess in every update

No blame, but when the entire game changes are focused on 20 ppl, its not good.

they listen to top raiders/players because they speak the devs language, namely they know all the skills, how they work, how to use them etc etc.

More like knowing all the exploits, abusing them for 1-2 months, reporting them after get geared, they got ""fixed"" and mere players have no chanse to gear up.
Ash nerf. Golden tracery nerf. AC drop nerf. HH t3 Durin tank nerf / no player tank in raid/

Wont say names, but can share videos if need. WIth very famous and respected from the devs players...

There is no select group to which we listen.

Oh dont. Im far from making it personl, but your devs even share discord witch this grp of ppl. And you are very active there too
And discus pve and pvmp changes and future updates there.
There. Not on the forums.
So with all my respect mr Orion, pls dont

[Arnenna]

There is no select group to which we listen. Our feedback, experience, and testing informs the majority of the decisions we make around balance. After the initial change to mastery went live with U35, there were a number of experiences in our internal testing, and the initial feedback and experiences expressed in-game, here on the forums, and our our own experiences, that we felt we had reduced some of the difficulty across the game. As I stated in another related thread, we are monitoring this recent changwe If we were overzealous in our adjustments, we will, happily admit our mistake, and adjust accordingly.

The changes after mastery adjustments were not that great. I didn't see any significant change in difficulty, and to be honest, I didn't see any uproar about things being too easy out here on the forums or in the game either. Wherever you got the bulk of that feedback - it wasn't here, and that is where this "notion" that some players have, that you are listening to a select group, comes from.

I wouldn't call this recent change "over zealous", I'd call it plucking numbers from the air, or, picking up on a single comment, somewhere out wherever, that said "eh man, this be too easy, it needs to be at least 25% harder." We have all seen comments such as that from time to time, even though they are isolated. It's the fact that they are isolated and not common that spawns this idea that some players now have.

Ideas have the ability to grow, and spread, as this one is, and there is a lot of chatter going on about it, both here, and in places that you are not aware of. You don't have much time to sit back and monitor while a portion of your player base is generating, and growing an idea that will be massively unpopular. Sweeping changes like this affect every player. From those that are up there doing the t4/5 raids, right down to the payers running solo landscape content. Did you stop to think about what these changes would do for players running Delvings on Deadly+ on your legendary servers for example? Maybe go find out? They are paid servers.

There has to be a way for you to give players that want high difficulty when they want it, that doesn't affect everyone else. Give it to them, throw them t10 instances and raids, give them all the glory, gold, kudos and gear that stands skyscraper tall above everything else, and keep them happy.

Find the target, aim and fire.

Stop sweeping with a wide head mop.

[Fantomex]

As someone who has spent long hours clearing Sagroth t4 several times a day since its release, let me assure you none of us asked for this.

The wipes are absolutely tearing through consumables and it's a headache trying to comp around getting "sub-optimal" classes for the fight their gold class items (not to mention the absence of items for champs, guards, and beornings). The consensus among our group is either the raised mitigations or the morale boost would have been sufficient for fights to last a little longer, or some portion of each. Both at this degree was way too heavy a hand.

Hopefully we get one more pass before the raid releases and the third swing is the charm. It would be a huge shame if the raid were too easy or way too hard after all this build up. I've seen a ton of players return to the game because they're interested.

[Juices]

You SOLD us u35 and the mastery changes as a dps upgrade for everyone. Lazy to find the quotes, but I'm sure you remember. WTH is this now?

[Arnenna]

As someone who has spent long hours clearing Sagroth t4 several times a day since its release, let me assure you none of us asked for this.

The wipes are absolutely tearing through consumables and it's a headache trying to comp around getting "sub-optimal" classes for the fight their gold class items (not to mention the absence of items for champs, guards, and beornings). The consensus among our group is either the raised mitigations or the morale boost would have been sufficient for fights to last a little longer, or some portion of each. Both at this degree was way too heavy a hand.

Hopefully we get one more pass before the raid releases and the third swing is the charm. It would be a huge shame if the raid were too easy or way too hard after all this build up. I've seen a ton of players return to the game because they're interested.

Someone asked for it, or, we wouldn't have got this response . . . .

"Our feedback, experience, and testing informs the majority of the decisions we make around balance. After the initial change to mastery went live with U35, there were a number of experiences in our internal testing, and the initial feedback and experiences expressed in-game, here on the forums, and our our own experiences"

The "internal testing" and "our experience" is the bit that is interesting. If they had played this, they'd know it's grossly over tuned, and they wouldn't have to monitor anything - so that's out. They wouldn't have rolled it out if they already knew the overall affect before launching it. There was nothing much said about mastery changes making things too easy out here in the forums, so we can rule that one out too.

What's left is "initial feedback." That comes from players. Emphasis on initial - we know where that takes place.