Warden Changes and Feedback

[Osglinthor]

Some last minute changes I would like to see are in this post https://imgur.com/a/wjfWUjG

I agree with some points of post above, even if I dont mind if cashout is our current burst option and is used rotationaly. It plays quite nicely on adds/prio targets. AoE might be in bit worse spot than ST due to having only 1 360 dot that gets cashed out so stacking them on the run or while mobs are still spread around to prep for cashout is bit harder so by that time RC gets to be top dmg which is bit boring/easy to do, could maybe include it into cashout.
In future I would like to see cashout like combo treatment for direct dmg gambits and maybe form of CC and perhaps heals/dmg reduction. Since with battle memory and masteries CD its quite hard to give value to any DD gambit that isnt BiS dmg/animation wise. The way cashout work currently is something chains should have been reworked into, without too many of them. That way there would be no need for advanced technique and one would still have a lot of freedom in rotation. One of main problems on longer fights are different dot durations, kinda feel like tracking via plugins might be needed for optimal gameplay(already is on live but not to this extent) then again might just take bit of time getting used to it.

[Simba-]

I will be updating this list in the future the more I notice issues with Warden dps.


1.) Make Warden's Triumph 60s duration instead of the current 55s. (It feels awkward right now when the rotation is around 30s

2.) Make JotDF targeted aoe. It's slow to use, has awful accuracy, damage and often misses on moving targets with desync and stuff. I usually end up having to use an immediate to cut the animation, old javelin debuffs didn't have any of these problems and they were actually "ranged" this new one isn't ranged you just miss it from range and melee.

3.) Revert brink back to 10 target 360°. Or make default target count of 10 on AoE skills (or make a trait that gives max targets like champion). This would give us room for 1 extra tracery which would be AoE damage tracery.

4.) Make Resounding Challenge work with AoE cashout. (I see no reason not to, clearly an oversight)

5.) Make AoE cashout have no maximum targets, currently it doesn't prioritize targets with bleeds (I know this even without testing). Same goes with every AoE skill, even if you target a mob it doesn't get target prio) It could also be kinda like shattered javelins and do splash dmg around the target, currently AoE cashout sucks

6.) Bring back some utility we lost, like boars rush daze or fear or something new. We lost AoE slow, root, 5s daze with slow break period, AoE fear. What did we get in compensation ? Incombat ambush. (other dps classes have tons of cc like hunter has ranged fear, ranged daze, aoe daze, root, slow) Spear-fist line needs it's daze back or bigger dmg buff, it's currently dead content/less useful than previously on live without boar's rush daze. Utility would help a lot if burst damage isn't an option.

7.) We need AoE burst on initial gambits back or something to compensate the loss of shattered javelins which was our main burst for trash mobs. Current spear-fist/cashout spam is just too weak.

8.) Make marked target apply from power attack DoT line aswell as the Boot line. (Currently it's only the Boot)

9.) Possibly give us DoT spread back on single target bleeds to buff current weak sustained AoE dps. Currently Wall of Steel and Boar's Rush don't do much so they could be made to spread ST bleeds AoE. (restore quicksweep trait you removed into something better but without requiring the need to trait?)

10.) Make Minstrel's Call to Greatness reset Rapid Techniques instead of "Javelin of the Deadly Force" because JotD isn't a capstone anymore (and sucks).





11.) Currently The Way of the Spear/Shield/Fist are pretty boring mechanic for cashing out AT. It's equivalent to when we were using First Aid (Warden's self cure skill) to proc a healing trigger essence for 5% crit chance for 10 seconds, no special animation or anything every 30 ish seconds.

My suggestion would be to maybe have it apply potency aswell or rework it to completely something more interesting than it currently is?
Also the numbers need cleaning up.




12.) Buff assailment stance, it's too slow and all the ranged tooltips are wrong/too weak (look at the cashouts doing no damage and Onslaught being stronger than Wall of Steel). Biggest problem is how slow everything is built in Assailment.


these are only the burst versions and as you can see they've lost their "double hits" or in this case "triple", kinda like fist-spear line losing their double initial hits (Piercing Strike/Spear of Virtue)




Final thoughts...

I think cashout should've been just a finishing move (like in PvP, cappy OB) and Quicksweep should've stayed for sustained dps and you could choose which one of them you wanted to use depending on the situation.
As for PvP which favours burst damage, Warden is by far the worst pvp class there is.
DoT damage sucks. (too many HoTs and cures against it)
Silence and Disarm sucks. (self explanatory)
Cashout deals no damage. (it should ignore a portion of mitigations kinda like reaver's impale)
Assailment being weak/slow hurts. (fix damage and speed up Assailment to match In the Fray gambit animation speed)

This is some of the best feedback you can get here on the forums from actually someone who knows Warden in and out. So I HOPE some of these if not all could get implemented

[Simba-]

bumpty bump it's been a month...

[Constrictions]

Enjoying a lot of the changes, but I did have a couple of notes I wanted to make in light of everything...

Traceries
Does the Ambush Run Speed thing need to still be a thing? I'd love to see it be an In Combat Short Term Run Speed Buff added to a skill somewhere.
I enjoy the Buff and Debuff Duration Traceries, though they feel only barely impactful even at their Gold Tiers. Would still slot them though, just wish it was adding a bit to each buff in perhaps a % way, or a higher base number I suppose.

Skills
Never Surrender
Not a fan of the Never Surrender change. I definitely get wanting to ditch the double dip that we have atm, but trying to predict your death is always such a pain. You could just potentially catch 2 unexpected RNG crits in a row and boom.

If I were to offer a suggestion that would fit both, why not make Never Surrender a toggle effect, where as when the restoration effect triggers, THAT is when the Cooldown begins.

Turn it on and leave it alone, but you can no longer double dip. You could even keep the Tracery the same for the most part, or augment it with some CD Reduction. Have something like Blue Line = 3m CD traited, -60s on a gold tracery for 2m, than have Red be 5m = 4m CD with the same tracery. Idk, just something I was thinking about, prefer the current version where I don't have yet another mini mechanic to juggle based on some RNG.

First Aid
Personally I'd love to see this skill be a lot more useful. Either a tracery to make have a shorter CD or the ability to clear more than 1 or something. Right now this is actually probably one of the things that actually annoy me most often playing Warden.

Warning Shot
This one bugged or..? If not I'd be hard pressed unless absolutely necessary to use it with an enemy buff on it.

Love the animation changes overall, weird choice to change up Brink of Victory's AoE but eh...

Traits
Fellowship Protector
Feels not great honestly, especially for a capstone. Tanking on Warden I almost always have my mits capped already, so having something that's throwing more out feels needless, basically just very little impact.

Way of the Shield
Also, after the tuning from Beta 1, this one feels wrenched down too far. It's minor utility now, rather than something with some meat on it.

The Overall Critical Defense Loss was also much heavier than I anticipated.

End Note
Pre-Combat Buff Dancing
I've been tanking with Warden since....Mirkwood or so. I'd love some way to just condense our Pre-Combat Buff Dancing into a smaller timeframe. An out of combat tank buff skill if you were that just flipped it on for the start, not even just for myself, but to speed up those like long wind ups going into combat. I mean does anyone really enjoy needing to stand around with their food buffs and everything running down for 30s or so before every pull? Might just be a personal thing I'd love to see happen at some point though maybe just wishful thinking.

Completely with you on First Aid and Ambush run speed.

RE: First Aid

This could be added to the Steadfast tracery. Currently, there's little reason to use the Steadfast tracery, particularly if you run the shield tactics duration tracery. In that case, you have a permanent stun prevention equivalent to a LMs stun dot with this setup. Steadfast would hardly be necessary. Having a bonus to the number of conditions first aid removes would be a great boon to the tracery and make it competitive.

Re: Ambush:

IMO, wardens should receive a smaller boost to movement speed for an extended duration after the initial burst of speed. Ambush has always been wardens 'sprint' equivalent skill, but it has never had the same functional utility. I don't think wardens, given our kit, should have a sprint equivalent to guardians or champions though, but we could definitely use someething. Here's one possible idea. After the initial 50% burst wears off, we receive a ++7% move speed buff for 15 seconds. The tracery could then be changed to extend the duration by 10 sec (so that it can be refreshed when ambush comes off cd) and add 3 % points of move speed or something.

Here's a great idea re: NS.

It toggles, as you say, and the cooldown starts whenever the toggle ends. While it is toggled, it drains 2k power per second. It can end either 1) when the heal procs, or 2) being manually disabled, or 3) running out of power.

This idea has the advantage of giving additional possible time and breathing space to the warden in using the cooldown (a LM/dark before the dawn/power pot/captain can extend the duration for a little bit of time) without taking away the emphasis on using it predictively. The additional potential for extended duration comes with a cost to power. Thematically, I think it fits quite well. "As a warden you are capable of temporarily focusing all your power on the singular purpose of resisting defeat".

If we are going to have clicky cooldowns, they need to fit thematically with the wardens kit. The gambit system fundamentally requires us to be somewhat predictive of whats going to happen within 5-10 seconds normally, and highly responsive to any sudden changes in play. I am all for wardens getting lots of nice and powerful stuff to keep us viable, but I do not like seeing proposals that do not fit thematically, and/or contain zero costs with lots of boon that minimizes the impact of gambit choices.