Hunter Update - Option #1

[Vilan]

But then, I direct you back to everything else I said, there isn't a need for this, or we don't have content that requires this type of a role, if a dps cannot pull their own weight or offer groundbreaking buffs/debuffs, they are generally not considered.

"Minor debuff and CC" is not enough to make a role, you either need a complete overhaul of the spec, in which Yellow Hunter would perform a role/function on a similar scale to Yellow Burg, or, this is the spec that should be made passive.

I don't know that every line needs to fit into a group role. If yellow hunter is just for keeping some of the riff-raff away from you in bad guy camps on landscape, or some off-CC to help in 3 mans where there's no LM or burg, that doesn't make it meaningless.

[Belnavar]

A lot of that would come with the numbers.

While reading back over my initial notes and some of the early feedback here, I am wondering how far I can push the CC aspect on trapper.

Example: Strong Intimidation becomes Bard's Decoy Trap. Bard's Decoy Trap Deploy a fear trap that bears the image of the famed Bard. This image strikes fear into the heart's of enemies and causes them to flee. Trap Duration 20s Fear.

I really like the sound of that, but as part of Option #2. Hunter definitely needs one of those lines to become a passive utility line, and if we are to save Yellow, and give Hunter a true CC role, it needs more skills like this (and the ideas I presented in the Option #2 thread).

-Bel

[wispsong]

To be fair, this is an MMORPG.

Blue is nice for landscape, I don' think ever spec needs to be in raid. I love the mobility. Without it my hunter is just boring.

[Hephburz-2]

I don't know that every line needs to fit into a group role. If yellow hunter is just for keeping some of the riff-raff away from you in bad guy camps on landscape, or some off-CC to help in 3 mans where there's no LM or burg, that doesn't make it meaningless.

I see what you are saying, but, their whole mantra ever since Yellow Minstrel went passive has been that every spec should have a clearly defined role that can be used and taken into group content, and they have passivised the lines that did not fit into that. Thus far they have succeeded with this. Yellow Hunter would serve a much greater function in being a passive spec for Blue/Red Hunters.

[Tepee]

But is our means to select target with a tab or a skill key press to soon work at these extended distances or be left untouched?

I'll stick with just setting off auto attack and let the mob come into skill range, mobs on the move ain't doing damage, unlike us Huntsmen. Keep your enemies closer, so to speak. Personally I prefer to work at the mobs own range so I can use it to my advantage; backing out a bit or moving out of LOS for an induction if not interrupting it myself. Only a static numpty needs extra range.

Mine are built with Split Shot and Rain of Arrows for the up front AE to massacre landscape, the crafted traceries for induction speed have blown out dots from my builds now, rather prefer the speed of Swift Bow and the induction skills forced on our once focus burn class. Until we get another Power slot it's range and single damage and critical magnitude for me.

Trouble is we have devs tasked with getting our hunters to play with others but they don't need such dead weight hanging around their necks, thank you.
Rather be using the guile of the wolf over the mindless sheep on a "rotation" someone built for them on a discord.

Some of us don't want to raid any more. We're beyond that trudge.

Agreed, I mostly play Blue, but I still have issues when I use the +8-11m range extension tracery, that I just cannot target some mobs automatically, because they are too far, and have to click them with the mouse.
I can imagine that in Red with ~50m range, this is more cumbersome. Sure, if possible, I would happy to see improvements in the auto-target range.

[Fargasia]

I see what you are saying, but, their whole mantra ever since Yellow Minstrel went passive has been that every spec should have a clearly defined role that can be used and taken into group content, and they have passivised the lines that did not fit into that.

I don't remember anyone from SSG ever saying that all specs have to be useful in group content. What I remember them saying is that every class should have a viable group role. Given that there are so many of us casual solo players, each class also needs to have a viable solo spec that is fun and rewarding to play.

I currently play a lvl 140 hunter that is blue spec with a lot of red skills, and traps. If the outcome of the class work is that I still have a mobile hunter that is quick to kill, has good survivability, and is fun to play (ie not too complicated), I'll be happy. With my shallow knowledge of class design, it seemed to me that making the CC skills of yellow line available to both red and blue specs would be the way to go. Red line would continue to be great in groups, and raiders would not have to switch into yellow to use those skills pre-fight. Blue would continue to shine in solo play with enhanced CC skills.

Will be interesting to see where we end up, and I look forward to spending some time with my re-vamped hunter whatever the outcome.

[Tepee]

Before you read further let's establish what this is. This is a very early pass on what changes might come to the Hunter class.

I am calling this option one, because there are two potential options that we are considering. Option two will be in a forthcoming post. We will gather feedback from both sets of options and make decisions once we have more clarity on how to best proceed.

As with my posts in the Guardian forums. If a trait is not mentioned then it is not currently being considered for revision or updating.

That is the outline. Let's discuss.

Dear Orion,

I'm very happy that you are in charge of the Hunter rework too, as a main Guardian I love the direction you took on my favourite class, so I'm just here to say best wishes to you in regards of the Hunters.

My second main is actually a Hunter, but I almost only play Blue line solo, so I'm not that qualified in this topic as in Guardians, but I can share some general thoughts.

Blue line had an identity crisis from around Gondor (~U18, Far Anorien) when the devs just pumped it up, and gave focus-consumer skills huge buffs, and the power consumption was ridiculously high, that's why Blue had a bunch of power utility.

These are now solved, but there is still the issue that Blue and Red still competes for the damage traits. This means that the meta is almost always spec Blue, then splash Red in solo, and spec Red, then splash Blue in group content.
Yellow line is very fun, and I had some good memories when me and a friend duoed some on-level 6-men instances as 2 Yellow-line hunters, because we just partied trough them with all the CC and survivability. Other then this... well, it is maybe good in PVMP?

Anyways, there are some identity crisis in this class. Red is the best nuker, sure, that's fine. Blue is the solo line, okay, but we want buy Red traits after the blue tree, and Yellow is just like "I want to party, let's have some fun" kind of, almost meme tree.

The "Skirmisher" kind of direction is I think fine you took on the Blue line, but please don't hurt our capabilities of killing mobs in sparse areas, as that would hurt the Hunter's identity as the fastest landscape class.

That is all I can contribute to you for now, and I wish you best of luck for this new rework.

[Joedangod]

Yes. I want to modernize the class a little. Being able to move while using a ranged weapon is possible, but more difficult. Specialists - like the Huntsman - would ignore those difficulties but the other Hunters could benefit from being able to move. However, the incentive should be to reward the expected playstyle. Hunstman moving, Bowmaster stationary, and Trapper being a little tricksy.

Bowmaster

Honestly this is a no-go. Right now red can use ranged attacks on the move, it's just strictly only able to do focus skills which is perfectly fine. If you wanna nudge a little more mobility in red then give a 3-5s grace period before focus decay whilst moving. With that alone it can now comfortably move for short stints every now and again, which is all you really want to do there. Everything being cast on the move more or less strips the turret aspect away from the class, there's little-to-no emphasis on being precise with your movement in that scenario.

I feel like the elephant in the room here regarding red does need to be talked about. Induction durations are absurd. Quick Shot is what, 0.3s on average? You have induction skills executing faster than regular skills, which makes it a little confusing why these are induction skills in the first place. Something has to change in that regard, and yes people are going to yell at me but the minimum duration on an induction should be around 0.75s or so (about in line with Brawler setups for execution speed). Either fast draw or quick draw needs to be scrapped there. This can't be done in isolation, you'd need to consider the impact that such a change would then have on the related CDRs, focus generation, and even quick shot damage output but it does need to happen. An induction based spec should have visible inductions.

Huntsman

For blue you're offering a decent start with bumping the melee skills but you would generally need to play around a bit more with the CDs, traceries, and actual base damage of the melee skills for this to work out. You could likely still leave quick shot for generating focus at range but ideally the main abilities for that purpose should be melee. I'd also say ditch the cashout stuff you're floating, totally fine with the damage of various abilities being empowered per bleed on the target or whatever but we don't need to keep cashing out stuff over and over. Cashouts should mostly just be used for longer DoT specs as a way to recoup some of the value of a DoT that would be wasted when the target dies in the next 5s.

I've not got much else to add here, as a general note blue should probably get strength stance increasing melee damage as well (and honestly switching strength stance to be in blue, precision stance traits to be in red makes a whole lotta sense). Heartseeker should not be available to blue or yellow really, it's quintessentially a red skill and if you're in any way serious about maintaining some differences in gameplay between the specs you'd lock that into red alone. Barrage could probably use some boosting, perhaps making it a frontal AoE spender for them so it actually feels a bit more like a barrage and plays into their melee a bit more.

Trapper of Foes

Yellow is messy, even with your tweaks. You absolutely need to nail down which spec you want yHunter to be replacing in your average raid/fellowship. In general it seems to be angled more towards a yLM kinda spec but in that case it's really going to need some yLM equivalent debuffs. You need your lore skill equivalents, you need your mez equivalents (roots are not equivalent to mezzes), you need your constant damage increasing debuff equivalents, and you need your burst enfeeble debuff equivalent. You can substitute personal damage for the power/morale healing parts of LM, they wouldn't really fit all that well on hunter anyway.

I'd also lean towards making traps a bit more consistent in their potential to hit AoE, most likely via having the first mob to trigger it pulse the effect in AoE around itself to tag the other mobs.

Universal

Not strictly related to any trait line but I think you can toy with having Burn Hot be a universally bestowed ability and set up each tree to modify it in some way, blue could merge it with rapid fire, yellow could merge it with whatever survivalist prepper ends up being, red could focus on amping damage/power costs or something. Mostly just fuel for thought.

[Hephburz-2]

I don't remember anyone from SSG ever saying that all specs have to be useful in group content. What I remember them saying is that every class should have a viable group role. Given that there are so many of us casual solo players, each class also needs to have a viable solo spec that is fun and rewarding to play.

I really don’t have the time to sift through however many X pages of dev responses on this forum or on a certain discord - but I’m more than 100% sure the goal was that every spec should be viable in some way in group content, whether it’s the case a spec is more useful in a 3man than a raid is up for debate, but, the point is it can be used in group content - you only have to look at their class changes over the past 8-10 months to see that that is the direction they’re heading in. Otherwise we would still have yellow minstrel and yellow warden, and yellow guard wouldn’t now also be on the chopping block, as are potentially one of the lines for Hunter and LM; if what you said was correct we wouldn’t be in this situation, but we are, so it remains to be seen that you are incorrect.

[SSG_Orion]

I wanted to follow-up on this initial discussion with regard to the Trapper of Foes. The goal with the change toTrapper of Foes is to allow the hunter to use traps and survival skills to control and debuff enemies, and deal damage through, predominantly, ranged skills.

Over the past couple of days, discussion with the team, feedback from here and elsewhere, have given me a fresh perspective that I would like to share.

As before, if a trait is not mentioned then there are no current plans to change it. Thought the orders might change.

Trapper of Foes

Grant the Skill: Pinning Shot
Grant the Skill: Decoy
Traps can be used while moving and have no inductions.

Nimble Fingers
New Trait - 5 Ranks
+ [Level based] Finesse Rating

Deadly Decoy
5 Set Trait Bonus

Decoy becomes Deadly Decoy
Explodes after 15s
If destroyed before the expiration, the decoy explodes and applies a 2s Daze

Combat Traps
5 Ranks

-1s Reduction to trap skills cooldown per rank
+10% trap skill damage per rank

Endurance
Moves to 5-10 Rank
2 Ranks
+1% to parry and evade per rank

Danger Sense
New Trait 10-15 Rank

-5s Cooldown to Dazing Blow
+5s Pinning Shot Root Duration

Elusive
Moves to the 10-15 Rank
5 Ranks
+1% Evade per rank

Imposing Presence
Replaces Strong Intimidation and moves to 15 Rank Set Bonus

Reduce Bard's Arrow Damage by 25%
Increase Bard's Arrow Fear duration by 5s
-10% to target Fear Resistance

Increase Deadly Decoy duration by 5s
Increase Deadly Decoy health by 25%
Increase Damage of Deadly Decoy by 10%

Explosive Powder
Moves to 15-20 Rank
No Other Change

Survival Gear
Moves to 20-25 Rank tier

Advanced Placement
Moves to 20-25 Rank tier
No other changes

Master Trapper
Moves to 20 Rank Set Trait

+10% incoming critical chance from Deadly Decoy damage effect for 10s
+5% bonus to Tripwire to trigger a Fellowship Manoeuvre
+3s to Tripwire Knockdown
-5% mitigation bonus bypass on target struck by Piercing Trap for 10s

Piercing Trap
Gain the Skill: Piercing Trap

Survival Gear
Moves to 20-25 rank tier
No other changes

Armor Penetration
Moves to 25-30 Rank tier

Purge Poison
Moves to 25 Rank Set trait

Wilderness Senses
Replaces Heightened Sense and moves to 30-35 Rank set Bonus

You can now move while Camouflaged
+6 Stealth Detection
+3 Stealth Ranks

Improved Distracting Shot
Moves to 30+ Rank trait
3 Ranks

-50s Distracting Shot Cooldown per rank
-10% to Distracting break Daze Chance per rank

Emergency Preparations
35+ Rank trait

Gain the following Skills: Launch Decoy, Tanglewire Arrow, and Puncturing Arrow

Launch Decoy shoots a Deadly Decoy at your target.
Launch Decoy shares a cooldown with Deadly Decoy and has a 30m base range.
Trap Skill

Tanglewire Arrow shoots a Tripwire Trap at your target.
Tanglewire Arrow shares a cooldown with Tripwire and has a 30m base range.
Trap Skill

Puncturing Arrow shoots a Piercing Trap at your target.
Puncturing Arrow shares a cooldown with Piercing Trap and has a 30m base range.
Trap Skill

Explosive Traps
All trap skills are now AoE and affect up to 4 targets.
This can be modified by the AoE target traceries.


Okay, now that this one is put together a little more cleanly. Any thoughts?

[Joedangod]

Explosive Traps
All trap skills are now AoE and affect up to 4 targets.
This can be modified by the AoE target traceries.


Okay, now that this one is put together a little more cleanly. Any thoughts?

Could we get a little clarity on the functionality of this? I.e. do you have to land the trap on all targets to apply it or does the first target to enter trigger an AoE pulse applying the trap to nearby targets?

[SSG_Orion]

Could we get a little clarity on the functionality of this? I.e. do you have to land the trap on all targets to apply it or does the first target to enter trigger an AoE pulse applying the trap to nearby targets?

This would cause the placed traps to allow for more than 1 target to be affected and the traps that are shot from your bow with Emergency Preparation to be targeted AoE skills.

[Joedangod]

This would cause the placed traps to allow for more than 1 target to be affected and the traps that are shot from your bow with Emergency Preparation to be targeted AoE skills.

So if I dropped the trap in front of a group of enemies and they ran into it, wouldn't only the first trigger it on themselves and the rest ignore it?

[SSG_Orion]

So if I dropped the trap in front of a group of enemies and they ran into it, wouldn't only the first trigger it on themselves and the rest ignore it?

No, it would continue to trigger until all of the triggers were exhausted. Consider them charges. Each charge would trigger on a new target, or the same target if it broke the effect.

So, the trap is place and can hit 4 targets without a tracery. The first 4 targets to enter the trap radius are affected.

[Agollas]

I wanted to follow-up on this initial discussion with regard to the Trapper of Foes. The goal with the change toTrapper of Foes is to allow the hunter to use traps and survival skills to control and debuff enemies, and deal damage through, predominantly, ranged skills.

Over the past couple of days, discussion with the team, feedback from here and elsewhere, have given me a fresh perspective that I would like to share.

As before, if a trait is not mentioned then there are no current plans to change it. Thought the orders might change.

Trapper of Foes

Grant the Skill: Pinning Shot
Grant the Skill: Decoy
Traps can be used while moving and have no inductions.

Good overall. Makes sense to make pinning shot yellow, although I'd perhaps chose to make it a trait rather than set bonus, indifferent either way though.

Deadly Decoy
5 Set Trait Bonus

Decoy becomes Deadly Decoy
Explodes after 15s
If destroyed before the expiration, the decoy explodes and applies a 2s Daze

Like the clarity on destruction after expiration. Would be nice if it was ground targeted as well. (unless it is already? I've not played yellow in a while lol)

Combat Traps
5 Ranks

-1s Reduction to trap skills cooldown per rank
+10% trap skill damage per rank

This currently is 15s reduction, now it'd be 5 second. I'd like to see the duration of the debuffs last longer if this is the case.

Endurance
Moves to 5-10 Rank
2 Ranks
+1% to parry and evade per rank

This kinda seems a bit underwhelming and always has done. I've said it in other places but an equivalent to warg flayer stance bubble would be better imo

Danger Sense
New Trait 10-15 Rank

-5s Cooldown to Dazing Blow
+5s Pinning Shot Root Duration

I like this. Maybe also increase to two tiers of corruption effects but only affecting 1 corruption. This would give another reason to play yellow.

Imposing Presence
Replaces Strong Intimidation and moves to 15 Rank Set Bonus

Reduce Bard's Arrow Damage by 25%
Increase Bard's Arrow Fear duration by 5s
-10% to target Fear Resistance

Increase Deadly Decoy duration by 5s
Increase Deadly Decoy health by 25%
Increase Damage of Deadly Decoy by 10%

I'm not sure why Bards arrow needs damage reduction? Yellow doesn't do good damage as is. Making decoy stronger can only be a good thing tho.

Master Trapper
Moves to 20 Rank Set Trait

+10% incoming critical chance from Deadly Decoy damage effect for 10s
+5% bonus to Tripwire to trigger a Fellowship Manoeuvre
+3s to Tripwire Knockdown
-5% mitigation bonus bypass on target struck by Piercing Trap for 10s

This seems like a nerf to yellow hunter ngl. This removes the +15% incoming damage from set trap, adds fellowship manouver bonus which people ignore anyway, and has such a short duration that when combined with the longer trap cooldown times you propose would make things worse off imo

Purge Poison
Moves to 25 Rank Set trait

Personally I'd move it to deep in the yellow trait tree rather than a set bonus. You don't always want fellowship poison remove

Wilderness Senses
Replaces Heightened Sense and moves to 30-35 Rank set Bonus

You can now move while Camouflaged
+6 Stealth Detection
+3 Stealth Ranks

Interesting adding it as a yellow trait rather than blue when yellow already has its "thing" and blue might be getting removed unless it can have its own "thing" but I like either way!

Emergency Preparations
35+ Rank trait

Gain the following Skills: Launch Decoy, Tanglewire Arrow, and Puncturing Arrow

Launch Decoy shoots a Deadly Decoy at your target.
Launch Decoy shares a cooldown with Deadly Decoy and has a 30m base range.
Trap Skill

Tanglewire Arrow shoots a Tripwire Trap at your target.
Tanglewire Arrow shares a cooldown with Tripwire and has a 30m base range.
Trap Skill

Puncturing Arrow shoots a Piercing Trap at your target.
Puncturing Arrow shares a cooldown with Piercing Trap and has a 30m base range.
Trap Skill

Just to clarify are these attacks that can't be BPEd? If so great! If not, I'd rather just place manually

Explosive Traps
All trap skills are now AoE and affect up to 4 targets.
This can be modified by the AoE target traceries.

Good. Potentially the reason why you've nerfed the traps though, but it shouldn't be - the debuffs are only really useful on main bosses anyway where traps being aoe doesn't matter.

[SSG_Orion]

This currently is 15s reduction, now it'd be 5 second. I'd like to see the duration of the debuffs last longer if this is the case.

Preliminary numbers are just that, preliminary.

This kinda seems a bit underwhelming and always has done. I've said it in other places but an equivalent to warg flayer stance bubble would be better imo I like this.

Yep, I agree, and am open to thoughts.

Maybe also increase to two tiers of corruption effects but only affecting 1 corruption. This would give another reason to play yellow.

Maybe.

I'm not sure why Bards arrow needs damage reduction? Yellow doesn't do good damage as is.

Maybe it doesn't need to be nerfed. We shall see. And on damage, we're going to try to bring that up with traiting into the other trees.

This seems like a nerf to yellow hunter ngl. This removes the +15% incoming damage from set trap, adds fellowship manouver bonus which people ignore anyway, and has such a short duration that when combined with the longer trap cooldown times you propose would make things worse off imo

Yeah, I missed the incoming damage on set trap - that would remain.

Personally I'd move it to deep in the yellow trait tree rather than a set bonus.

Potentially.

Interesting adding it as a yellow trait rather than blue when yellow already has its "thing" and blue might be getting removed unless it can have its own "thing" but I like either way!

This version of the yellow trait line keeps blue as a specialization path and blue will have its own thing. Planning on getting that out later tonight I hope.

Just to clarify are these attacks that can't be BPEd? If so great! If not, I'd rather just place manually

This can be BPE'd but will give you another choice.

Good. Potentially the reason why you've nerfed the traps though, but it shouldn't be - the debuffs are only really useful on main bosses anyway where traps being aoe doesn't matter.

We will test and make adjustments as needed.

[WeirdJedi]

I really don’t have the time to sift through however many X pages of dev responses on this forum or on a certain discord - but I’m more than 100% sure the goal was that every spec should be viable in some way in group content, whether it’s the case a spec is more useful in a 3man than a raid is up for debate, but, the point is it can be used in group content - you only have to look at their class changes over the past 8-10 months to see that that is the direction they’re heading in. Otherwise we would still have yellow minstrel and yellow warden, and yellow guard wouldn’t now also be on the chopping block, as are potentially one of the lines for Hunter and LM; if what you said was correct we wouldn’t be in this situation, but we are, so it remains to be seen that you are incorrect.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1586251192?t=16m54s if you want a reference. From what he said, I have always understood it as "a viable role" specifically for instances. They will make sure every class has a viable dps trait line. The other lines will allow you to do "nifty things".

[Hephburz-2]

Nimble Fingers
New Trait - 5 Ranks
+ [Level based] Finesse Rating

|| This is an interesting one, but, not entirely sure it is needed on Hunter? Though I guess finesse will be a high requirement for the traps and their associated debuffs etc. to always land without resistance, perhaps, trap resistance penetration instead? Finesse just feels like it would end up being too much of a free stat bloat for red and blue hunt. Just my two cents.

Deadly Decoy
5 Set Trait Bonus

Decoy becomes Deadly Decoy
Explodes after 15s
If destroyed before the expiration, the decoy explodes and applies a 2s Daze

|| Could you perhaps reduce the time taken for the decoy to explode, somewhere down to 5-10s & preferably just make it indestructable, in much the same way the Runekeepers fates entwined stone is? Because no offence, no one is using this for it's "taunt", you're using it for the +10% incoming critical chance it gives. Which makes your additive changes to this on Imposing Presence also rather redundant.

Combat Traps
5 Ranks

-1s Reduction to trap skills cooldown per rank
+10% trap skill damage per rank

|| 5s cooldown reduction doesn't feel like it's going to be nearly enough, unless you plan on reducing trap cd across the board.

Endurance
Moves to 5-10 Rank
2 Ranks
+1% to parry and evade per rank

|| Endurance really needs revamping as a whole, as do the 10s stance buffs, because no one is going to stance dance, you pick a stance and you stay in it for the entirety of the fight, +% Mitigations and +% Resistance would feel more impactful instead of Parry and Evade, as would some kind of focus or damage proc when one of your trap effects gets triggered, perhaps something like +1 focus and +5% damage for 10s.

Danger Sense
New Trait 10-15 Rank

-5s Cooldown to Dazing Blow
+5s Pinning Shot Root Duration

|| This applies to both Dazing Blow and Pinning Shot, the cc effects need to be longer.

Elusive
Moves to the 10-15 Rank
5 Ranks
+1% Evade per rank

|| These types of traits are "dead points", even with this more clearer defined role, you could make this 15% evade and 15% parry and it still wouldn't see much use, majority of damage taken by players is puddle damage and therefore is resistance based, or it's from unavoidable abilities, if you are face-tanking damage from mobs, it means your tank is dead and 5% evade isn't going to keep you from dying. It would be better if this was either some kind of +% Max Morale trait, or a +% Resistance trait.

Imposing Presence
Replaces Strong Intimidation and moves to 15 Rank Set Bonus

Reduce Bard's Arrow Damage by 25%
Increase Bard's Arrow Fear duration by 5s
-10% to target Fear Resistance

Increase Deadly Decoy duration by 5s
Increase Deadly Decoy health by 25%
Increase Damage of Deadly Decoy by 10%

|| Talked about the decoy changes above. Not sure why the nerf to bards arrow damage, if anything it should be increased not decreased, fears are also unreliable forms of CC.

Explosive Powder
Moves to 15-20 Rank
No Other Change

|| Somewhat related, but could you please make Explosive Arrow a targetted AoE skill and not a ground targetted skill?

Survival Gear
Moves to 20-25 Rank tier

|| Seems appropriate.

Advanced Placement
Moves to 20-25 Rank tier
No other changes

|| +15-20 Max range? Please?

Master Trapper
Moves to 20 Rank Set Trait

+10% incoming critical chance from Deadly Decoy damage effect for 10s
+5% bonus to Tripwire to trigger a Fellowship Manoeuvre
+3s to Tripwire Knockdown
-5% mitigation bonus bypass on target struck by Piercing Trap for 10s

|| Triple Trap staying as +15% incoming damage? On the subject of Triple trap will it still place 3 traps and each trap have 4 trigger applications? Or? How is this going to work? Is Piercing Trap still going to restore morale to all those who hit it or does the mitigation bypass change that?

Wilderness Senses
Replaces Heightened Sense and moves to 30-35 Rank set Bonus

You can now move while Camouflaged
+6 Stealth Detection
+3 Stealth Ranks

|| Sounds cool, Hunter stealth.

Improved Distracting Shot
Moves to 30+ Rank trait
3 Ranks

-50s Distracting Shot Cooldown per rank
-10% to Distracting break Daze Chance per rank

|| So 30s cooldown with 10s duration? Please consider adding +7s duration per rank thanks. When important mobs, especially in raids have adaptations, you do not want to blow your daze adaptation on 10s as opposed to 30-35s. More to the point this also prevents you from locking down a single target with a daze like a LM/Burg can which is actually going to be a vital requirement if you want Yellow Hunt to work.

Explosive Traps
All trap skills are now AoE and affect up to 4 targets.
This can be modified by the AoE target traceries.

|| So would the +AoE target tracery increase the number of trigger applications each trap has? So essentially 8 trigger applications per trap with the gold tracery? Also on this, will targets inside the trap have the effect re-applied when it expires? So, if you have just the one target standing inside the traps? Or would you need to move them out and back in again?


Additional:

• Would it be possible to seperate the traps in triple trap, i.e. you have 10 seconds to place 3 traps and then the skill goes on cooldown, allowing you to place the traps at different locations rather than altogether?
  
• This is definitely a step in the right direction in terms of the CC ability the line has, I now wonder what you will do with the damage aspect of the line. Inductions specifically are a problem for Yellow Hunter when trying to deal damage as they cannot take all the induction reducers from Red and Blue, DoT damage, should also be drastically increased in Yellow given Piercing Trap, Lingering Wound (though, I wonder if you have now removed that?), and The One Trap are all DoT effects.
  
• Some kind of reset cooldown skill that could reset the cooldown on all of your traps? Perhaps a 5min cooldown?
  
• It would be cool if Yellow Hunter had a fellowship healing ability of some kind, either strong with a longdown or weak with a short cooldown, just so they can spot heal when needed in much the same way Burgs and LMs can, which is what this line is going to be competing with here. Bearing in mind I only make this suggestion if Piercing Trap has lost its healing component, if it hasn't this would be unnecessary, if it has, this is needed.
  
• Could you please increase the radius on Rain of Thorns to 20m? During boss fights when waves of adds spawn they don't always run together in the same direction or even at the same speed, it can be difficult to lock them down with a small radius.
  
• Armour Rend seems like it is still going to be underwhelming, with high enough finesse nobody b/p/e's anyway, this will probably be a "dead point" trait. Please consider changing to a small armour reduction instead? Or just something else entirely?
  
• EDIT: I would also like to note this feels like you want Yellow Hunter to compete with a Red Captain for its spot; simply because all of the trap buffs are damage based, in effect you are almost creating a new type of support role that is cc and offensive buffs. That being said, you still miss two key elements which will prevent yellow hunter from being used and that is - A) You offer no debuffs comparable to YBurg or YLoremaster which are essential and B) You just cannot do what a RCaptain does, the DPS from what it “sounds like” will not be comparable, you don’t have a Rez, you don’t have the defensive buffs, and the RCaptains offensive buffs are orders of magnitude much more potent. You have combined two aspects of support into one class; but these two aspects currently are not enough (the cc side is somewhat fine with a few more tweaks, but offensively a YHunter will still massively lag behind a RCaptain).
  

[Ryvick]

Not really a fan of either Options 1 or 2, Option 1 trying to turn Blue into a "Jack of all Trades" just ends up with a heavy emphasis on "Master of None". And Option 2 while marginally better just turns Hunter into a single spec (Red spec with Blue).

I understand what your trying to do with Yellow and had severe reservations with it until your latest write-up and now my reservation are slightly reduced altho for the most part the main problem remains (Until you get the newer Emergency Prep at the end of the line).

To explain: There are 2 forms of CC, most classes including Hunter have "Direct CC". This is CC that you target mob, fire, and Server checks yes or no. Traps are "Indirect CC". These only work if one of 2 situations occur. 1. "Preparation" Take time out to prepare your trap setup and draw mobs into them. Great but adds time to everything you do "especially in group situations". 2. "Luck" Drop a trap on the move and hope the mob runs across the trigger. This suffers from the problem of "LAG" sometimes not rectifying with the server that the trap was even triggered after a mob runs across where the trap was.

With the newer Emergency prep at the end of Yellow you allow the hunter to fire their traps directly at targets allowing the "Indirect CC" to become "Direct CC" and that solves the problems inherent in an "Indirect CC". (I was going to suggest this but wasn't even sure if firing a trap at an enemy would even be possible.)

Long story short however, I still don't see the necessity to make Yellow a spec-able line. It seems to me to still be nothing more than a support line that could and should simply be designed Utility style to support Red and Blue in group situations if folks want to take it but at the same time doesn't add much but some 90% more CC utility.

[Hephburz-2]

Not really a fan of either Options 1 or 2, Option 1 trying to turn Blue into a "Jack of all Trades" just ends up with a heavy emphasis on "Master of None".

I totally do not understand where you're getting this idea from with Option 1 calling Blue a Jack of all Trades? It's going to be a dps line, just done differently, with a melee aspect to Hunter as opposed to the "ranged only" mindset or red.

[Hephburz-2]

Bowmaster

I feel like the elephant in the room here regarding red does need to be talked about. Induction durations are absurd. Quick Shot is what, 0.3s on average? You have induction skills executing faster than regular skills, which makes it a little confusing why these are induction skills in the first place. Something has to change in that regard, and yes people are going to yell at me but the minimum duration on an induction should be around 0.75s or so (about in line with Brawler setups for execution speed). Either fast draw or quick draw needs to be scrapped there. This can't be done in isolation, you'd need to consider the impact that such a change would then have on the related CDRs, focus generation, and even quick shot damage output but it does need to happen. An induction based spec should have visible inductions.

I don't mind so much Quick Shot being as it is with the short induction, but as such the damage should be reduced to compensate, it should just be a quick spam filler (and not a bulk of your damage as it is now), but I do unreservedly agree with you about the inductions of the rest of the line.

Huntsman

I've not got much else to add here, as a general note blue should probably get strength stance increasing melee damage as well (and honestly switching strength stance to be in blue, precision stance traits to be in red makes a whole lotta sense). Heartseeker should not be available to blue or yellow really, it's quintessentially a red skill and if you're in any way serious about maintaining some differences in gameplay between the specs you'd lock that into red alone. Barrage could probably use some boosting, perhaps making it a frontal AoE spender for them so it actually feels a bit more like a barrage and plays into their melee a bit more.

Removing Heart Seeker from Blue would require an alternative in its place, or a significant damage increase to compensate for the loss. Like the barrage suggestion & agree with the change of strength and precision.

Universal

Not strictly related to any trait line but I think you can toy with having Burn Hot be a universally bestowed ability and set up each tree to modify it in some way, blue could merge it with rapid fire, yellow could merge it with whatever survivalist prepper ends up being, red could focus on amping damage/power costs or something. Mostly just fuel for thought.

I like this ^

[SSG_Orion]

As with the Trapper of Foes we looked at the initial ideas behind the considerations for Hunstman as well.

The definitive trait tree goal for Huntsman is as follows:

Huntsman fills its DPS role as a skirmisher. Feeling equally at home in melee and at range, the Hunstman uses mobility and honed talents to soften their targets at range and deliver devastating melee hits. In times of need, they use their ability to find cover to exact grievous injury on their enemies.

Huntsman

Grants Scourging Blow
Scourging Blow
2 Attacks
Deals +15% damage for each stack of Lingering Wound to each attack
Stops the Bleeding
Cooldown 8s

Grants Lingering Wound
Cooldown 2s

Induction Based Skills can be used while moving.
No Focus Loss on Movement
No Miss Chance Penalty for Movement

Impactctful Arrows
0 -5 Tier
5 Ranks

Increases Ranged Damage by 1% per rank

Strong Arms
0 -5 Tier

6 Ranks

Ranks 1-6: +5% Bow damage for bow skills that consume Focus and +2.5% melee damage/rank (1-5)
Rank 6: Using a skill that costs Focus has a 15% chance to reduce the cost of all skills by 1 for 5s

(30% Focus Skill Damage, 15% melee damage)

The Skirmisher
Rank 5 Set Trait Bonus

Successful Melee Attacks grant 1 Focus
Critical Melee Attacks grant 2 Focus
+20% Induction Movement Speed

Press Onward
5-10 Tier

Grants the Skill: Press Onward

Quick Shot Focus
5-10 Tier
5 Ranks

+4% Quick Shot bonus per rank (unchanged)

Split Shot
5-10 Tier

Grants the Skill: Split Shot

Athleticism
5-10 Tier
3 Ranks

+ [Level based] Physical Mastery per rank
On every Harmful Skill,
+3.33% Chance to gain Fleetiness per rank
Fleetness: 10% In-combat run speed for 20s

Barbed Hindrance
10 Rank Set Trait Bonus

+30 to Barbed Arrow Damage
+30% to Barbed Arrow Bleed Damage
Slows target by 20%

Perseverance
10-15 Tier Requires Pess Onward
5 Ranks

+5% increase to Press Onward Heals

Precision
2 Ranks

Rank 1: Stance: Precision now generates 1 Focus every 4s
Rank 2: Generations 1 Focus every 3s

Pathfinder
10-15 Tiers
3 Ranks

+5% Boost to Find the Path speed bonus per rank

Nature's Barb
15 Rank Trait Set Bonus

Low Cut Becomes Nature's Barb
Nature's Barb
Melee Skill 5.2m Range
Max Targets:1
A low cut in front of you channels natural energy to purge corruption from your enemy.

2 Attacks:
Main-hand damage
Off-hand Damage
100% chance to remove a corruption on the main-hand attack
25% chance to remove a corruption on the off-hand attack
Cooldown 10s

Improved Blood Arrow
15-20 Tiers
2 Ranks

Rank 1: Blood Arrow heals 5% of Max morale over time
Rank 2: Blood Arrow heals 10% of Max morale over time and reduce the cooldown of Blood Arrow by 5s

Exsanguinate
15-20 Tiers Requires Blood Arrow Rank 2

2 Ranks

Tier 1: 66% chance to unlock Ensanguinate after Blood Arrow
Tier 2: 100% chance to unlock Ensanguinate after Blood Arrow

Barbed Fury
15-20
4 Ranks
Increases Hunter Bleed damage by 5% per rank

Hunter's Voice
20 Rank Trait Set Bonus

10s Cooldown to Cry of the Hunter
+10% Movement Speed

Shot through the Heart
20-25 Tier

Heart Seeker and Merciful Shot do more damage to targets with active bleeds

Volley
20-25 Tier
5 Ranks

Using a skill that costs focus has a 3% chance per rank to remove the induction time of your next skill stacks 5 times Expires out of combat

Martial Training
20-25 Tier
2 Rank

On every Harmful Skill +5% chancce to gain Fleetness and increase Fleetness run speed efficacy by +2.5% per rank
At Rank 1: Fleetness now grants 1 Focus per 5s
+5% melee damage per rank

Find Cover
25 Rank Trait Set Bonus

In-combat Camouflage becomes Find Cover and can be used in-combat but increases the cooldown to 60s;
Ranged attacks while in Camouflage gain +25% Critical Chance and +25% Critical Magnitude

Strength of the Earth
25-30 Tier
2 Ranks

Rank 1: Grants Skill Strength of the Earth
Restores Power while Active
5s Duration
1m 30s Cooldown
Rank 1: Increases Ranged and Melee Damage by 10%
Rank 2: Increased Ranged and Melee Damage by 20%

Improved Inten Concentration
25-30
2 Tiers

12s Intent Concentration Cooldown per Rank

Earthborn
30 Rank Trait Set Bonus

Strength of the Earth now restores morale and focus while it is active:
+1 Focus per second
Restores Morale while active

Rupture Artery
30-35 Tier

Grants the Skill: Rupture Artery

A melee attack dealing additional damage to target a target suffering from Barbed Arrow, that automatically scores a critical strike on targets affected by Exsanguination.

Crtiical Hits stop the Exsanguination Bleed.

2 Attacks
Rupture Artery deals 225% of Main-hand Damage + bonuse Bonus
Deals
225% of Off-hand Damage + bonus Bonus

Cooldown 20s

Rapid Assault
30-35 Tier

Grants Skill: Rapid Assault
Skills that cost focus no longer have a cost. Resets all skill cooldowns.
Duration 10s
Cooldown 180s

Intense Assault
35 Rank Trait Set Bonus

Every attack made while Rapid Assault is active puts a stacking Physical Mastery buff on the Hunter.

Now, there would be a lot to ensure that the Huntsman balances well against Bowmaster which I hope to be able to describe and outline a bit more later today.

Looking forwaard to reading thoughts on the updates here.

[Tepee]

You can now move while Camouflaged
+6 Stealth Detection
+3 Stealth Ranks

Since Yellow is mostly a fun line for me, this stealth change would make it considerably more fun, good change!

[Tepee]

The definitive trait tree goal for Huntsman is as follows:

Huntsman fills its DPS role as a skirmisher. Feeling equally at home in melee and at range, the Huntsman uses mobility and honed talents to soften their targets at range and deliver devastating melee hits. In times of need, they use their ability to find cover to exact grievous injury on their enemies.

Nice nice nice!

The melee damage in addition of the current stats is cool, so it doesn't nerf anything, but gives great opportunity for melee.

Lingering Wound would be nice in this line, cause this line has the most bleedy identity. But then what happens to Barrage?

The Camouflage change is also nice, it corresponds to the line's kiting playstyle when it comes to harder/more numerous foes.

And last but not least, Pathfinder is cheaper: cool! Since it is a must-have trait for landscape, yet is doesn't give any in-combat bonus, it is a very wise decision to not tax players that much on run speed buffs.

[Hephburz-2]

Huntsman

Grants Scourging Blow
Scourging Blow
2 Attacks
Deals +15% damage for each stack of Lingering Wound to each attack
Stops the Bleeding
Cooldown 8s

Grants Lingering Wound
Cooldown 2s

Induction Based Skills can be used while moving.
No Focus Loss on Movement
No Miss Chance Penalty for Movement

|| Ah I see now you moved Lingering Wound to Blue, either way, I like this

Impactctful Arrows
0 -5 Tier
5 Ranks

Increases Ranged Damage by 1% per rank

|| Could this not be Ranged AND Melee damage?

The Skirmisher
Rank 5 Set Trait Bonus

Successful Melee Attacks grant 1 Focus
Critical Melee Attacks grant 2 Focus
+20% Induction Movement Speed

|| This is good!

Athleticism
5-10 Tier
3 Ranks

+ [Level based] Physical Mastery per rank
On every Harmful Skill,
+3.33% Chance to gain Fleetiness per rank
Fleetness: 10% In-combat run speed for 20s

|| It might be a bit much but could you add an additional effect to fleetness? Run speed alone.. for so many points, both here and further down, seems.. Underwhelming? Though I do like that Fleetness is tied to a PM buff (though I have the same concern with this that I did with the finesse in Yellow, that it just feels like too much of a free stat bloat, for little input).

Barbed Hindrance
10 Rank Set Trait Bonus

+30% to Barbed Arrow Damage
+30% to Barbed Arrow Bleed Damage
Slows target by 20%

|| Love the addition of bleed damage here.

Nature's Barb
15 Rank Trait Set Bonus

Low Cut Becomes Nature's Barb
Nature's Barb
Melee Skill 5.2m Range
Max Targets:1
A low cut in front of you channels natural energy to purge corruption from your enemy.

2 Attacks:
Main-hand damage
Off-hand Damage
100% chance to remove a corruption on the main-hand attack
25% chance to remove a corruption on the off-hand attack
Cooldown 10s

|| This seems like a very cool change, would be nice if it also did very good damage too (much like feral strikes on champ).

Hunter's Voice
20 Rank Trait Set Bonus

10s Cooldown to Cry of the Hunter
+10% Movement Speed

|| Could this be something like bubble potency instead?

Shot through the Heart
20-25 Tier

Heart Seeker and Merciful Shot do more damage to targets with active bleeds

|| Could this apply to all melee skills aswell?

Martial Training
20-25 Tier
2 Rank

On every Harmful Skill +5% chancce to gain Fleetness and increase Fleetness run speed efficacy by +2.5% per rank
At Rank 1: Fleetness now grants 1 Focus per 5s
+5% melee damage per rank

|| Nice added melee damage to this, runspeed I'm not sure about as above.

Find Cover
25 Rank Trait Set Bonus

In-combat Camouflage becomes Find Cover and can be used in-combat but increases the cooldown to 60s;
Ranged attacks while in Camouflage gain +25% Critical Chance and +25% Critical Magnitude

|| This. This is very cool, but could this extend to melee attacks also?

Strength of the Earth
25-30 Tier
2 Ranks

Rank 1: Grants Skill Strength of the Earth
Restores Power while Active
5s Duration
1m 30s Cooldown
Rank 1: Increases Ranged and Melee Damage by 10%
Rank 2: Increased Ranged and Melee Damage by 20%

|| Again, nice added melee damage here.

Rupture Artery
30-35 Tier

Grants the Skill: Rupture Artery

A melee attack dealing additional damage to target a target suffering from Barbed Arrow, that automatically scores a critical strike on targets affected by Exsanguination.

Crtiical Hits stop the Exsanguination Bleed.

2 Attacks
Rupture Artery deals 225% of Main-hand Damage + bonuse Bonus
Deals
225% of Off-hand Damage + bonus Bonus

Cooldown 20s

|| So, if the target has barbed arrow on it, Rupture will do more damage, and if the target has exsanguinate, Rupture will always be a critical hit - the critical hit will remove the exsanguinate bleed? Just so I read this correctly?

Intense Assault
35 Rank Trait Set Bonus

Every attack made while Rapid Assault is active puts a stacking Physical Mastery buff on the Hunter.

|| Will this be +X rating? Or +X% rating (So, +% damage essentially)? Because +X rating is going to be underwhelming.


Additional:

• I feel as though blue hunter could do with another melee skill, Low Cut (Or rather Natures Barb), Rupture and Scourging Blow all sound great so far, but it's a rather small repetoire?
• Definitely moving in the right direction, same as with Yellow Line, but I fear, without more 'reason' to use melee skills, it won't change much in the grand scheme of things.
• A Melee AoE attack could round this off very nicely, perhaps even one that could have a % chance to proc a free Rain of Arrows?
• Give Blue Hunter a reason to be in melee, give it less inductions, or more mits for proximity to its target? These are just suggestions, I'm sure you can come up with something better.