Migrating User Guides to Lorebook - Discussion

[Patience]

Hi folks,

We'll use this thread to discuss the migration of User Guides from the forums to the Lorebook, since you will all inevitably think of things we didn't, or have requests that we'll want to see if we can accommodate.

So why the changes? Several reasons:

• Better support for HTML and formatting on the Lorebook
• Automatic table of contents generation (w00t!)
• No risk of guides being deleted during forums cleanup
• No more "I've run out of room in the original post" issues due to forums character limits
• Better categorization and ease of finding guides
• Ability to have a guide fall in multiple categories
• No more abandonment issues when an author stops updating a guide
• Reduction in number of stickied threads at the top of forums
• Link right to other entries on the Lorebook

...and so on.

The idea now is to convert guides over to the Lorebook and have them live in the categories that Clover has already created. We'll convert them as quickly as we can, though if players start moving them too it'll go that much faster.

Original authors are credited at the top of the guide. If players move guides themselves, they should send me or Clover a PM with a link and we'll add the noedit tag to the credits block so it can't be tampered with. The credits block may wind up looking a little different when our graphic artist gets back from his honeymoon.

Guides on the forums will be unstickied. We'll make a subcategory on the forums of links (similar to "Useful Links") that go directly to the categories on the Lorebook to help promote the guides. The goal is to make them easier to find.

For examples of how the guides look on the Lorebook, check out the two that Clover has already converted:

What We Wish Other Classes Knew About Burglars

The Angler's Guide to Fishing in LOTRO

Five days ago when I threw her under this bus, Clover didn't know any wiki markup at all. She's done a great job at picking it up and will be glad to help others who would like help learning how to do simple coding and formatting.

Ultimately we want to make a central repository for user guides that makes them easier to find, easier to read, and easier to update when things change or an author abandons their guide. We're very conscious of the fact that the original authors often put a HUGE amount of effort into their creation and want to make sure they receive proper credit for their entries.

Comments and suggestions on how to make this transition smoother and more useful to you guys are definitely welcome! Thanks!!

-Meghan (and Clover!)

[lastalliance]

Cool, Patience. There was a nice class guide someone made a while back. I'll try to find it again.

[skorpion352]

wow, i just read the fishing guide on the lorebook, and it is awesome. however, you might want to change the yellow to something a bit darker, as it is hard ot read it in some places. otherwise, keep up the awesome work

[SiSL]

So where should I put http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=127919 such titles in this set up and how to start to it?

[Clover]

wow, i just read the fishing guide on the lorebook, and it is awesome. however, you might want to change the yellow to something a bit darker, as it is hard ot read it in some places. otherwise, keep up the awesome work

I used the yellow because that is what the creator of the guide used. But I agree it is a bit difficult to read. I will change it to something else I am sure the author wants everyone to be able to read his work!

[Clover]

So where should I put http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=127919 such titles in this set up and how to start to it?

SiSL I set up a new category Lore Guides>>Name Guides
And I created a page for your guide. All you have to do is log in and edit it.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Names...2C_Quick_Guide

I am sure it will turn out awesome. There is a ton of great info there!!

Just be sure to keep the [[Category:Name Guides]] At the bottom of the article when you edit it so it properlly links back to the Name Guides page.

[Clover]

I used the yellow because that is what the creator of the guide used. But I agree it is a bit difficult to read. I will change it to something else I am sure the author wants everyone to be able to read his work!

I changed the font colors to maroon and green instead of aqua and yellow. Any feedback would be much appreciated.

[SiSL]

SiSL I set up a new category Lore Guides>>Name Guides
And I created a page for your guide. All you have to do is log in and edit it.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Names...2C_Quick_Guide

I am sure it will turn out awesome. There is a ton of great info there!!

Just be sure to keep the [[Category:Name Guides]] At the bottom of the article when you edit it so it properlly links back to the Name Guides page.

Tried my best at http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Names_in_Middle-Earth yet, not sure how to reduce long contents list or make A B C D E etc. horizontal

Still didnt look so bad so far

[Patience]

Tried my best at http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Names_in_Middle-Earth yet, not sure how to reduce long contents list or make A B C D E etc. horizontal

Still didnt look so bad so far

I just saw it a few minutes ago, I thought it looked pretty awesome actually.

[coridan_2008]

One of the things that really bum me out about the Lore book is the almost non existent information on Monster Play. There is a large number of customers that enjoy monster play but very little info is found in the Lore book and no direct link from the welcome page to anything pertaining to Monster Play.

[Kahuna]

Suggestion for one that I use all the time: the Online Traits Compendium http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php...01&postcount=1

Some of the info is out of date, like the page drop locations, which were updated in http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php...&postcount=288

I'd move it over myself, but my time is rather limited at the moment.

[sentinal]

So make one. I believe that was the entire point of Patience's post.

[karakedi]

In the long run, this may prove one of the most useful things in the Lorebook. Great work, Turbine (and Clover et al. in particular)!

[Cherubina]

I just created two new guide categories (Account and Subscription Guides and Technical Guides). I'll be moving things from the "Help for New Players" FAQ in the Free Trial forum and stuff from the sticky I have in the Account Support forum over. What is really great about this is that I'll be able to make several "guides" that are specific to the needs of player subgroups, instead of throwing everything into a single thread. It should make it much easier for players to find exactly what they are looking for.

I am really excited about this little developement. Good thinking ladies!

[aethelberht]

Hiya. Harry here, author of the Angler's Guide to Fishing in LOTRO. Clover, first I want to say thank you for taking the time & care to transfer that info over so faithfully. I appreciate it.

I'm kind of on the fence about this whole idea though. Like Patience mentioned, this guide involved a lot of time & effort over several weeks -- testing, fishing, practicing, looking at other folks' responses, following ideas, hitting dead-ends, figuring out new thoughts, reshaping the page. And it became something I was quite proud of in the end.

Now I'm as egalitarian as the next guy. But my understanding is that a wiki is open to edit & alteration by the entire community. Is that right? So the work that I did (including all the very extensive fact-checking on levels, bugs, recipes, whatnot) could be changed on a whim by someone who's sure he caught an 80-lb salmon at level 20 in Overhill?

I really want to be in favor of this, as I do understand the logic behind it. And of course I understand that this is Turbine's Web site and Turbine's resources that have to be kept in mind. But I just want to make sure there's some way to know that this page will remain accurate and useful -- some way that -doesn't- involve daily policing!

[Cherubina]

Hiya. Harry here, author of the Angler's Guide to Fishing in LOTRO. Clover, first I want to say thank you for taking the time & care to transfer that info over so faithfully. I appreciate it.

I'm kind of on the fence about this whole idea though. Like Patience mentioned, this guide involved a lot of time & effort over several weeks -- testing, fishing, practicing, looking at other folks' responses, following ideas, hitting dead-ends, figuring out new thoughts, reshaping the page. And it became something I was quite proud of in the end.

Now I'm as egalitarian as the next guy. But my understanding is that a wiki is open to edit & alteration by the entire community. Is that right? So the work that I did (including all the very extensive fact-checking on levels, bugs, recipes, whatnot) could be changed on a whim by someone who's sure he caught an 80-lb salmon at level 20 in Overhill?

I really want to be in favor of this, as I do understand the logic behind it. And of course I understand that this is Turbine's Web site and Turbine's resources that have to be kept in mind. But I just want to make sure there's some way to know that this page will remain accurate and useful -- some way that -doesn't- involve daily policing!

It is true that anyone in the LotRO community can edit. I have posted a lot of stuff in the Lorebook, and I know how frustrating it can be to have someone "mess" with it. The thing to do is put the article on your watch list, then when someone changes anything you will know, and can check it out. If the change is accurate, you can leave it. If it is not, you can remove it. If it is a case of vandalizing you can report it. There is also a discussion page on each article, where you may be able to come to some agreement on content. There are ways to handle such things, and I think the benefit to the community far out-weighs the aggravation and/or frustration it may cause original authors.

[Patience]

But I just want to make sure there's some way to know that this page will remain accurate and useful -- some way that -doesn't- involve daily policing!

Hey Harry Your Angler's Guide rocks. Seriously.

As for your point above, this is something we're definitely aware of and took into consideration when figuring out details of the move. One of the "nice" things about wikis is versioning. At any time you can see who's edited a page and what they changed, and can roll back to a previous version if necessary. You can also Watch a page, so checking your Watchlist will tell you if any of the pages on it have been touched.

From what we've seen, people who take time to edit the wiki are fairly respectful and careful, especially if they're editing someone else's work. If you're concerned about the accuracy of what people might add to the guide, you could add a section at the bottom for others' contributions and keep it separate from the main body of the guide, perhaps? Just a thought!

-Meghan

[dhatcher1]

It would be really helpful to have an "Instance Guides" and a "Quest Guides".

Is it possible to just put in links to the forum threads for the time being, until someone takes the time to convert the guide.

[Cherubina]

It would be really helpful to have an "Instance Guides" and a "Quest Guides".

Is it possible to just put in links to the forum threads for the time being, until someone takes the time to convert the guide.

There is a section for Walkthroughs that should cover Quest/Instance guides, if anyone wants to add them. I created the category and put the original few there (Archet Intro quests) during the preliminary beta editing phase, I believe someone added a Helegrod guide later. You can find them on the Lorebook Home page under "Spoilers". Obviously a lot more could be done there.

[skorpion352]

it looks much bettern ow clover, keep up the good work.

btw, someoen should write a guide for makign guides :P

[aethelberht]

Hey Harry Your Angler's Guide rocks. Seriously.

Thanks! *blush* It's been a lotta fun creating something that got so much input & feedback & traffic.

I can tell I'm getting old. My first reaction to "change" and "new technology" is to grimace and grump. But I'm sure once I get the hang of wiki-markup-language it'll probably be great. I -really- like the table ability for one thing!

One of the "nice" things about wikis is versioning. At any time you can ... roll back to a previous version if necessary. You can also Watch a page, so checking your Watchlist will tell you if any of the pages on it have been touched.

This actually helps a bunch. It still means keeping an eye on it, but at least fixing things is easy. Probably a fair trade-off for being able to collect all these guides in one place. Thanks (to you too Cherubina!) for pointing out these bits.

Grumpily looking forward to learning new tricks!

[Beleg]

Thanks for converting my Burglar thread, Patience and Clover!

I've converted the other six What We Wish Other Classes Knew About threads:

Captains
Champions
Guardians
Hunters
Lore-masters
Minstrels

[Herugrimm]

This wiki addition is totally awesome! Thank you for the good work!

All we need now is a guide to pick up chicks

[Clover]

Thanks! *blush* It's been a lotta fun creating something that got so much input & feedback & traffic.

I can tell I'm getting old. My first reaction to "change" and "new technology" is to grimace and grump. But I'm sure once I get the hang of wiki-markup-language it'll probably be great. I -really- like the table ability for one thing!


This actually helps a bunch. It still means keeping an eye on it, but at least fixing things is easy. Probably a fair trade-off for being able to collect all these guides in one place. Thanks (to you too Cherubina!) for pointing out these bits.

Grumpily looking forward to learning new tricks!

Harry I spent quite a bit of time yesterday learning how to make those tables. I think it was really worth the effort and I wanted to do your guide justice.

This is what I have been using for help:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Reference_card
This link for tables:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Table

Hope this info helps!

[Clover]

Thanks for converting my Burglar thread, Patience and Clover!

I've converted the other six What We Wish Other Classes Knew About threads:

Captains
Champions
Guardians
Hunters
Lore-masters
Minstrels

Beleg they look awesome !