Floon: Any chance that trip will actually use the trip animation again?

[Thane9]

The other thing that you are failing to take into account is that many things must also be "balanced" from a technical perspective. If it take 1000 hours to implement something then that something better apeal to a very wide range of player types and if the thing implemented breaks a lot of other things that would also take many hours to fix, then it becomes that much less likely to be done. When writing and fixing code, one must understand that it is very often a ripple effect. Changing one thing may very well change something else, sometimes accidentily. It isn't a cop out to talk about the realities involved.

Which is EXACTLY why they should change less. Trip was working fine. So were CJs. Etc etc etc...I could list a dozen systems that have been tinkered with that are now "less fun" that could've just been left alone.

Fix things that are actually broken would be my advice. But again, the devs have better visibility than posters on a forum do.

[auximenes]

Has anyone put up a new post/poll asking the population what they think?

Bottom line is that some players were getting confused some of the time when Burglars used trip. On the other hand, the majority of players understand that seeing something get tripped does not always equal an FM opening. How that ever was interpreted as the players wanting Trip to be changed escapes me.

What's worse is right now, it's still not consistant. Wardens and others trip opponents regularly and without triggering an FM. I think it's a shame that a few knuckleheads can't comprehend what they're seeing, so the rest of us have to suffer with confusing work-arounds?

/thumbsdown

[Goibhnie]

After reading all the threads linked into this thread, I gotta say, it looks like the trip animation was changed because it was confusing the CREEPS, not anyone in a PvE raid or fellow. From the creeps' perspective, maybe they were unable to interpret whether a knockdown was an FM starter or not. Just my take on the issue.

So, if your interpretation is correct, burglars have been changed once again due to pvp. lame.

[Elfheart]

Floon, I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of people don't like this change. I would also like to ask that you poll the players now that the change has gone in. This better not be yet another pvp change but it sure seems like it because I don't know a single pve player who doesn't understand that trip was a FM. The wheel pops up so it's a FM, what's not to get?

This also begs the question why this would be changed now when it has been fine since closed beta. This change has really taken so much fun out of my hobbit burglar. I would go fight giants and trolls and aurochs just to trip them. BOOOOOO!!!!! I say to this change. Change it back for Mirkwood!!!

[TheOneRinger]

I still don't see what was confusing... it still seems that it was pretty obvious before. Was this creeps getting confused?

Also, what would be the problem in changing some skills so that all skills that knock someone down start FMs?

[Wosret]

Is Floon stating/implying the trip animations were removed from game (having already been in place... and successfully I might add) for the sake of game development?


LMAO!

That's so wrong. Tripping opponents, in-game of course , was pure WIN!

[floon]

Has anyone put up a new post/poll asking the population what they think?

I think it should be easy to read the implication of my previous post: there are decisions that make for a healthier game (and thus more fun in an overall sense) that will never win a poll, because the people who do not like the decision are much more highly incentivized to vote no, as compared to the much larger population that benefits in a more indirect way.

People always clamor for polls that are, nearly always, exactly the wrong sort of poll to conduct.

[Jailen]

I'm having SWG flashbacks (Star Wars Galaxies) here.

In that game there were things like deployable camps that you could set up and hang out in. When the last major change occured (NGE), the camps were one of many things that were taken out. When players clammored to have them back, the devs were asking "Why, what's the purpose...they need to have a purpose" Well the purpose was the fun of having them, the immersion etc. I am coming to believe that Devs define what is fun differently and can all too often minimize/ignore the fluff elements of a game that are really fun for people. Especially when the dev resources start to dwindle over time.

Trip was one of those aspects of the game. Just fun to drop a troll, auroch, or whatever

And I also agree with whoever said that the change likely came from PVMP. What pve player is unable to see the wheel come up, such that they are confused by the knockdown?

[auximenes]

there are decisions that make for a healthier game (and thus more fun in an overall sense)

OK floon, I love ya', but I just can't agree that removing the tripping animation from the Burglar skill named Trip because some players were somehow confused about it makes the game healthier.

On the second aspect of your quote, after seeing the recent response to this change, I don't understand how you can think that players find it fun not tripping with Trip, even if that is at the expense of the few who got confused, and especially if it turns out that PvMP-complaints are what precipitated this change.

In the end, I think it shouldn't be the Burglars who have to sacrifice one of the fun aspects of their class in order to appease a handful of other players. Burglars need some love.

[PerfectApproach]

What it sounds like to me is that:
1) Someone saw people Tripping their opponents.
2) These people were confused because some Trips started FM's, and some did not.
3) The Dev's decided to change the Trip anim. to a stun, so that it would be more easily identified as a FM-starter.

Great! Oh, wait...not really. As it is now:
1) I see people stunning their opponents (Trips now look like stuns).
2) Some stuns start FM's, some do not.
3) Dev's defend the reasons they changed the animation.

What's the difference?

From what I remember, this change WAS made for PvMP. Creeps were complaining about Burglars using their FM-starters as stuns, if memory serves correctly. Creeps were trying to get Burgs nerfed... they wanted the stuns to go away completely. I don't think Creeps had any problems with the animation... they had a problem with being stunned. Seems to me like Turbine mis-interpreted the Creep complaint, and ended up reducing the realism of that particular skill.

Sorry Creeps, Trip still starts a FM, and will still stun you. Except now, they look like a regular stun, and less like a true "Trip." Thanks for that.

[Swiftstrike]

From what I remember, this change WAS made for PvMP. Creeps were complaining about Burglars using their FM-starters as stuns, if memory serves correctly. Creeps were trying to get Burgs nerfed... they wanted the stuns to go away completely. I don't think Creeps had any problems with the animation... they had a problem with being stunned. Seems to me like Turbine mis-interpreted the Creep complaint, and ended up reducing the realism of that particular skill.

Sorry Creeps, Trip still starts a FM, and will still stun you. Except now, they look like a regular stun, and less like a true "Trip." Thanks for that.

Well this change, despite being labelled "cosmetic only," did stop the Trip+Exploit Opening chain stun. With FMs being made unstoppable and unpottable in the moors, I'm sure the devs didn't want 9 seconds of unstoppable stun on creeps while wargs/spiders could only do 5 seconds--that would be OP. Notice that marbles didn't get changed. Marbles still start FMs and still employ a knockdown animation. Guess what? Marbles don't work on creeps. No need to bother.

Creeps were complaining about Burglars using their FM-starters as stuns

That's just hilarious considering that's all creep WBMs are... stuns with a contrived state name called "conjunction stun." At least with FMs, I do try to pull off conjunctions some of the time... actually got BRGYB on a greenie for kicks the other day

[Yaaraer]

I'm having SWG flashbacks (Star Wars Galaxies) here.

In that game there were things like deployable camps that you could set up and hang out in. When the last major change occured (NGE), the camps were one of many things that were taken out. When players clammored to have them back, the devs were asking "Why, what's the purpose...they need to have a purpose" Well the purpose was the fun of having them, the immersion etc. I am coming to believe that Devs define what is fun differently and can all too often minimize/ignore the fluff elements of a game that are really fun for people. Especially when the dev resources start to dwindle over time.

Trip was one of those aspects of the game. Just fun to drop a troll, auroch, or whatever

And I also agree with whoever said that the change likely came from PVMP. What pve player is unable to see the wheel come up, such that they are confused by the knockdown?

The SOE devs never understood our love for the social aspect of Pre CU SWG. Man I miss that game... BIGTIME!

[Nobbins]

Could the skill be changed only in the Moors to not result in the knockdown effect, since that seemed to be where the complaints were?

Guardians also complained about this change, as it changed the animation on To The King (it used to make the mob kneel down before you). That was a very clever and fun skill to use.

The game just ends up looking really sloppy when you trip a knocked down monster and he stands up. There has to be a better way to accomplish the goal of FMs being distinct without making absurd animations. Could you imagine if a bunch of skills got changed to cause the mob to stop jumping up and down while stunned? Doesn't make much sense, and neither does a knocked down mob tripping into an upright position.

[slack_n_hash]

Some more history behind this:

The change occurred as a part of a two step process:

• We were investigating a bug report on Sign of Power: Righteousness - the bug claimed that the skill was blocking conjunction stuns (and thus Warband Manuevers), yet the tooltip says that it should not block this. We agree that this type of immunity should not block conjunction stuns, so we looked into the cause and fixed it for those Monster Player skills.
• Looking at the situation globally, we decided to carry the conjunction stun immunity restriction further - so that no one has the immunity (on skills or items). In PvMP, this will hopefully allow conjunction openers to play a bigger role in breaking through the defenses of a tough opponent. In PvE, encounters where NPCs can execute conjunctions on players (specifically, Fil Gashan), conjunction stuns are supposed to be a dangerous move by the enemy AI, and thus no one player skill can shield you from such a devastating attack.

Crowd control and conjunctions dynamics have continued to shift in PvMP play. We will continue to monitor and adjust as necessary to provide an enjoyable PvMP experience in the Ettenmoors, for all classes involved.

[anwar]

Bah. This is just one more example, however minor, of PvP concerns affecting PvE fun. Everything else about it is spin.

[Dean340]

Some more history behind this:

the changes to the underlying mechanics are fine.
it's only the changes to the animations that are the issue now

[LagunaD]

Stuff.

So basically, it boils down to The Chewbacca Defense.

Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed forum, if Chewbacca lives on Endor, we must trash Trip!

[Elfheart]

I sorry but it is much more confusing for a skill to be called "Trip", and NOT actually trip the target. Trip has functioned this way since closed beta. That over 2 years it actually tripped the target!!! Why would you change it now for a few confused people? Shouldn't they have to learn they game like the rest of us? I can't find a single thread started by a player saying they didn't understand how trip worked and you know what if one was started it would have been explained to them by someone, problem solved.

So now some stuns are FM and some are not however previously some knockdowns were FM and some where not. I don't see how this eliminates any confusion it just made our skill look dumb. Really you only traded one confusion for another and in the process you have angered people like me who were perfectly happy with the update until you ruined my skill and made it a lie.

You guys have already ruined stealth from beta please give me my Trip back! Burglars need more love NOT nerfs and ruined animations.

[Lyynxx]

I think it should be easy to read the implication of my previous post: there are decisions that make for a healthier game (and thus more fun in an overall sense) that will never win a poll, because the people who do not like the decision are much more highly incentivized to vote no, as compared to the much larger population that benefits in a more indirect way.

People always clamor for polls that are, nearly always, exactly the wrong sort of poll to conduct.

First, I'll agree to stipulate that you are correct that this change does make for a healthier game.

Nonetheless, considering this in terms of concentrated benefits and diffuse costs is a mistake. That sort of analysis is all very well for explaining why every wanna president promises lots of ethanol subsidies before the Iowa caucus (and it gives political scientists something to tut-tut about), but you've drawn exactly the wrong lesson from it here. You and the rest of the LOTRO team are not professors or pundits able to sit back discussing decisions for the greater good without repercussion. Ya'll are politicians, trying to sell us on what you have to offer. Consequently, making changes that provide marginal and generally unnoticed improvements for most of the population, at the cost of greatly annoying a smaller part of the population, is a mistake, because it can cause that smaller faction to leave, while netting you nothing from the population at large.

It's in your interest to leave well enough alone, unless there are serious problems that have the general populace (or another smaller segment of it) very upset. For example: excessive hunter dps and the superfluity of guardians after MoM was launched. Those imbalances needed to be fixed because they were significant enough to cause people to leave. Your job is not to design an ideally "healthy" system, but to keep people playing.

[Mystarr]

Floon,

It seems to me that the sugegstion below would accomplish what LOTROSYSTEMS wanted AND fix the animation issue. ("Trip" doesnt make things fall and can in fact make them stand up...) Am I missing something or is this a win-win? Can we please get a comment on this?

---------------------------------
Actually id be okay with the devs swapping the names of trip and startling twist as a fix

- startling twist (the skill formerly known as trip) would be the name of the conj starter that can only be used from stealth (5 min cooldown) and makes the target stand around with stars over its head

- trip (the skill formerly known as startling twist) would be the name of the trick removal skill that knocks down the target for 8s (45s cooldown) AND GIVE IT THE TRIP ANIMATION

Its just wrong for a skill called trip to not actually you know... trip things and stuff

[Goibhnie]

Floon,

It seems to me that the sugegstion below would accomplish what LOTROSYSTEMS wanted AND fix the animation issue. ("Trip" doesnt make things fall and can in fact make them stand up...) Am I missing something or is this a win-win? Can we please get a comment on this?

---------------------------------
Actually id be okay with the devs swapping the names of trip and startling twist as a fix

- startling twist (the skill formerly known as trip) would be the name of the conj starter that can only be used from stealth (5 min cooldown) and makes the target stand around with stars over its head

- trip (the skill formerly known as startling twist) would be the name of the trick removal skill that knocks down the target for 8s (45s cooldown) AND GIVE IT THE TRIP ANIMATION

- improved trip would also remove 3 corruptions.

Its just wrong for a skill called trip to not actually you know... trip things and stuff

I second this change. (with improved trip added in )

I completely understand the reason for the change as it concerns pvp, but I just wish there had been some way to alter it without effecting the animation, as I'm sure the devs did as well.

[greeentea]

I found out: it was changed based on feedback, to make conjunction starters less confusing. Apparently this was discussed in forums before, at length.

I'm sorry but exactly what feedback could this have be gotten from? Were people bugging a skill called trip because it tripped things? It sure wasn't on the forums, as many have stated we would have seen it.

I also think some people here are missing the point. Which is, work was put into fixing something that wasn't broken.

Now as we all run around with upside down staves, hats that used to look cool, and using a skill called trip that does the exact opposite. There are still countless broken mechanics in the game that could have used the work. I would name a few but I truly don't think thats necessary.

I understand the way buissness works, thats great. But I also know for a fact that if Turbine doesn't start caring about the people that have been loyal to this game for years, that we are going to have a sad time ahead of us. Instead of charging us 20 bucks to finish off a volume that we have already paid for along with more broken content, go backwards and FIX THE GAME.

[FutenCake]

I think it should be easy to read the implication of my previous post: there are decisions that make for a healthier game (and thus more fun in an overall sense)

Well maybe you guys should start looking at what made the game fun and move away from this "healthy" BS. Because in your quest to make the game healthy, all that many of us see is that you are making the game progressively less and less fun.

The more you have removed from the game, the less enjoyment I, and my friends have gotten out of it. Funny how that works.

[Anisson]

I thought the explanation was easy enough to follow, though i don;t like it i can understand it.

Trip: aka a knockdownwas rewritten to work as a stun yo keep the devs fram haveing to add in a knockdown animation for each now type of mob; This was done to save on costs and dev time so they can make more baggy pants for radiance gear and animate them to better resemble the awsome stylings of mc. hammer, which is way more cool anyway that trip.

Aka: trip is gone turbine can't afford to or won't hire enough staff to do it, end of story.



Anisson

[floon]

Trip: aka a knockdownwas rewritten to work as a stun yo keep the devs fram haveing to add in a knockdown animation for each now type of mob; This was done to save on costs and dev time so they can make more baggy pants for radiance gear and animate them to better resemble the awsome stylings of mc. hammer, which is way more cool anyway that trip.

This is incorrect: I was wrong in my initial assumption that trip had a special animation. It does not. In any case, I'm thrilled to have stumbled into a thread topic that has such a rich history that only presented itself to me late in the thread. Yay for me.