Floon: Any chance that trip will actually use the trip animation again?

[laeron2000]

What is your problem floon? People are always going to complain, its natural. Most of us love the game (as I do) but people get frustrated. Why do you post in a bad mood/obviously have an attitude?

Customer service=treat your customers like they are paying you (because they are) and with the utmost respect and kindness. There are times for putting your foot down but it seems like that is always how you reply.

That said, we know all of you at Turbine have alot on your plate, who doesnt? We all work, we all have to survive. Let's all play nice *hugs floon* Keep up the amazing work, man!

[TheOneRinger]

What is your problem floon? People are always going to complain, its natural. Most of us love the game (as I do) but people get frustrated. Why do you post in a bad mood/obviously have an attitude?

Customer service=treat your customers like they are paying you (because they are) and with the utmost respect and kindness. There are times for putting your foot down but it seems like that is always how you reply.

That said, we know all of you at Turbine have alot on your plate, who doesnt? We all work, we all have to survive. Let's all play nice *hugs floon* Keep up the amazing work, man!

floon is awesome. floon can do whatever he wants. If you don't pay of your own free will, the floonlings will be released. Beware the floonlings.

[BoomWave]

Isn't this just useless rambling? Whatever the question was, it was answered ages ago. There's no need to maintain a post like that.

[immessedup17]

This seems like a perfect opportunity for me to suggest Burglars are removed from the game and replaced by Monks and Necromancers. Monks and Necromancers do not need the Trip skill or animation.

[Arkarianor]

This is incorrect: I was wrong in my initial assumption that trip had a special animation. It does not. In any case, I'm thrilled to have stumbled into a thread topic that has such a rich history that only presented itself to me late in the thread. Yay for me.

Can I ask a serious question here?

In PvE, encounters where NPCs can execute conjunctions on players (specifically, Fil Gashan), conjunction stuns are supposed to be a dangerous move by the enemy AI, and thus no one player skill can shield you from such a devastating attack.

This comment by LOTROSystems seems to explain that the reason for the change is that conjunction stuns, and warband maneuvers (monster versions) are "supposed to be a dangerous move." However, are the devs unaware that the conjunction stun skills are being used in PVP not to pull off a conjunction, but to take advantage of the 5 second incurable CC effect?

If a player is not grouped, and they hit a conjunction stun starting skill, no conjuction or warband maneuver will actually take place, because you need a group to do a 'conjunction' stun, you need a fellowship to do a 'fellowship manuever,' you need a warband to do a 'warband maneuver,' etc. So why do conjunction starting skills that don't actually start a conjunction because the player isn't grouped, still go through all skills and cannot be prevented or cured? LOTROSystems specifically states that the reason for this change is so that Warband Maneuvers or conjunctions, which were intended to be a powerful attack, cannot be cured or prevented. That's fine. But at the moment, conjunction starting skills that DO NOT start a conjunction because the person is not grouped, still are uncurable and unblockable. Is this working as intended? If so, why, when it doesn't go along with the goal LOTROSystems posted? If not, is a fix being worked on?

Crowd control and conjunctions dynamics have continued to shift in PvMP play. We will continue to monitor and adjust as necessary to provide an enjoyable PvMP experience in the Ettenmoors, for all classes involved.

Second question. After your 'monitoring' of the PVMP experience after this change, and the extreme negative feedback you've received because of it, are there plans to change this back in the next book?

Why not? LOTROSystems clearly states that it will be monitored and adjusted to provide an enjoyable PvMP experience in the Ettenmoors, for all classes involved. As somebody who has played every single creep class to rank 5, including a rank 10, almost 11 warg, and a rank 8 reaver, and has three rank 7+ freep characters, I seriously dislike this change.

I would venture to say that 99.9% of your playerbase does NOT approve of this change, and would appreciate if it were removed. Or have you decided not to monitor the feedback as LOTROSystems said you would? Or you have you monitored the feedback, but decided you don't care if the fans don't like it, you're going to keep it that way anyway?

[Arkarianor]

I found out: it was changed based on feedback, to make conjunction starters less confusing. Apparently this was discussed in forums before, at length.

That's another reason we were given, yes. I'm not implying that you're not giving us the 'real reason,' but this is very hard to believe.

As of now, the change we're discussing has made it far more confusing than before to tell the difference.

If you're aware of the CC removal potions avilable in PVMP, they cure stuns, dazes/mezzes, and roots. The stun potions have never and still don't cure FM's or WBM's.

Before the change, if one was tripped, there was clearly a knockdown animation. Everybody knows that you cannot pot out of this state, and it was not confusing in the slightest. You can't pot out of things where you fall over.

Now, stuns, dazes, and conjunction stuns/FM's/WBM's use the EXACT SAME animation. This is incredibly confusing for all PvMP players; as people burn stun potions right and left not understanding that they were, in fact, conjunction stunned.

If anything, this change increases the confusion, instead of diminishing it. Are the devs aware of this issue, and if so, what is being done about it?

Thanks.

[Swiftstrike]

Well, here's the video of Trip making a knocked down mob "stand up":

http://tinyurl.com/ye8u4dq

You don't actually see the Trip animation (cause the HIPS animation suppresses it), but you can clearly see me press Trip. Maybe one day I'll do it again with a warden ambushing so it can look even more ridiculous (and in higher quality too... accidentally compressed it too much and deleted the original fraps).

[MysterX]

That's another reason we were given, yes. I'm not implying that you're not giving us the 'real reason,' but this is very hard to believe.

As of now, the change we're discussing has made it far more confusing than before to tell the difference.

If you're aware of the CC removal potions avilable in PVMP, they cure stuns, dazes/mezzes, and roots. The stun potions have never and still don't cure FM's or WBM's.

Before the change, if one was tripped, there was clearly a knockdown animation. Everybody knows that you cannot pot out of this state, and it was not confusing in the slightest. You can't pot out of things where you fall over.

Now, stuns, dazes, and conjunction stuns/FM's/WBM's use the EXACT SAME animation. This is incredibly confusing for all PvMP players; as people burn stun potions right and left not understanding that they were, in fact, conjunction stunned.

If anything, this change increases the confusion, instead of diminishing it. Are the devs aware of this issue, and if so, what is being done about it?

Thanks.

What he said (emphasis mine).

[Hurkulon]

That's another reason we were given, yes. I'm not implying that you're not giving us the 'real reason,' but this is very hard to believe.

As of now, the change we're discussing has made it far more confusing than before to tell the difference.

If you're aware of the CC removal potions avilable in PVMP, they cure stuns, dazes/mezzes, and roots. The stun potions have never and still don't cure FM's or WBM's.

Before the change, if one was tripped, there was clearly a knockdown animation. Everybody knows that you cannot pot out of this state, and it was not confusing in the slightest. You can't pot out of things where you fall over.

Now, stuns, dazes, and conjunction stuns/FM's/WBM's use the EXACT SAME animation. This is incredibly confusing for all PvMP players; as people burn stun potions right and left not understanding that they were, in fact, conjunction stunned.

If anything, this change increases the confusion, instead of diminishing it. Are the devs aware of this issue, and if so, what is being done about it?

Thanks.

I also agree with Arkarianor.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a giant conjuction wheel in the middle of each fellowship members screen when trip is successful? So how is it that fellowship members were "confused'

Also Floon said this change was based on feedback? Who's feedback exactly?

[XINISTER]

Also Floon said this change was based on feedback? Who's feedback exactly?

Probably the guy who's sick of making trip animation on 60, 70 ... 80 mobs.

[Goibhnie]

This is incorrect: I was wrong in my initial assumption that trip had a special animation. It does not. In any case, I'm thrilled to have stumbled into a thread topic that has such a rich history that only presented itself to me late in the thread. Yay for me.

In all honesty I'm glad you found the history, further more I'm glad you've found it isn't a unique animation. But, that really is where we feel we have been wronged further. As stated previously I understand the need for the mechanics change, that doesn't bother me in the least. What does bother me and from what I can tell every burg that plays them as a main or used to play them as a main is that the simple knockdown animation was taken from us and its connection to our skill trip. We had fun with it. Now not as much, just another means to an end. Further evidence of the silliness given by Ryswald with his video. (nice job btw, you could also have another burg use their marbles to get the whole trip animation.) I honestly can see the threads in the future when new burgs go to trip something and they just stand there... talk about confusing.

I'd like to say I could speak for most in the thread in that we'd be fine with just getting our animation back, cause in all honesty I think that is what the OP wants, not to perma-stun death creeps.

Floon you do great work with the time you are given and thanks for coming by and giving your perspective. Don't lose heart even though the brick wall of the forums is nigh immovable.

cheers

[Auditor]

This is incorrect: I was wrong in my initial assumption that trip had a special animation. It does not. In any case, I'm thrilled to have stumbled into a thread topic that has such a rich history that only presented itself to me late in the thread. Yay for me.

So does that mean that it might be possible to get the animations for "Trip" and "To the King" put back into play? I understand the combat state change and why it won't be changed and that's not what I as a burglar would be asking for. Or is that not possible and every "FM Combat State" needs to have the same stun animation? I understand that a new animation for the "FM Combat State" is not a positive benefit for the resource cost. But my understanding of the original issue that lead to the adjustments made was in regards to confusion on the effect of skills on combat states, not the looks of the animation. If the animation for "Trip" and "To the King" is not unique and shared, why not bring it back?

[preorderkid]

That's another reason we were given, yes. I'm not implying that you're not giving us the 'real reason,' but this is very hard to believe.

As of now, the change we're discussing has made it far more confusing than before to tell the difference.

If you're aware of the CC removal potions avilable in PVMP, they cure stuns, dazes/mezzes, and roots. The stun potions have never and still don't cure FM's or WBM's.

Before the change, if one was tripped, there was clearly a knockdown animation. Everybody knows that you cannot pot out of this state, and it was not confusing in the slightest. You can't pot out of things where you fall over.

Now, stuns, dazes, and conjunction stuns/FM's/WBM's use the EXACT SAME animation. This is incredibly confusing for all PvMP players; as people burn stun potions right and left not understanding that they were, in fact, conjunction stunned.

If anything, this change increases the confusion, instead of diminishing it. Are the devs aware of this issue, and if so, what is being done about it?

Thanks.

This times 10000000000000000. If anything all FM animations should be changed to knock downs. It would solve confusion and make more sense imo. I'd think that when that big baddie has been knocked to his knees is a more apropriate time to band together and let off a team coordinated skill.

[auximenes]

I agree, if we're looking to simplify the whole deal, then having a knockdown also represent an FM would make more sense that what we're currently seeing. Yes, I understand that that change would affect the Warden's Ambush skill, but having a Trip knock someone down makes a lot more sense than tossing a javelin at them. I've got a Warden, who I play more than my Burglar, so don't say I'm just trying to nerf Wardens.

In the end, there can be both consistancy and fun with a few skill animation adjustments. Yes, I know it isn't a trivial task, but I think it does deserve some attention.

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Probably the guy who's sick of making trip animation on 60, 70 ... 80 mobs.

Too bad he still has to make the animations for Wardens anyway. Take that animation guy!

[Jeffor]

The SOE devs never understood our love for the social aspect of Pre CU SWG. Man I miss that game... BIGTIME!

I always remember the quote from one of the SOE folks that was something along the lines of:

"You just stood there... And it was fun?!"

Duh!

[Snogirl]

What is your problem floon? People are always going to complain, its natural. Most of us love the game (as I do) but people get frustrated. Why do you post in a bad mood/obviously have an attitude?

Customer service=treat your customers like they are paying you (because they are) and with the utmost respect and kindness. There are times for putting your foot down but it seems like that is always how you reply.

I though Floon was a dev, not a customer service rep?
He's always seemed very civil to me... just because he tells it like it is doesn't mean he's being disrespectful or unkind.

[laeron2000]

I never called him a customer service rep. But as a forum poster and employee of Turbine, he is exposed to customers...like most every other job on the planet... don't misquote me.

[Famtorg]

I though Floon was a dev, not a customer service rep?
He's always seemed very civil to me... just because he tells it like it is doesn't mean he's being disrespectful or unkind.

In any bussiness, if u have contact with a customer or customers, ur a Customer Service Rep. You can be the lowest on the totem pole, ur still a customer service rep.

Now with that said, Floon, ur good, one of the only devs that really gets into these disscussions.......but ur also beating around the bush on this one, the animation is there on other classes, was their for burgs, yet not anymore. You say some wanted it changed, but you can't link any of the former posts to show this and none of the lifer burgs can remember seeing any out there.

imo this is the same bs cover up thats been thrown around with outfits in the moors, don't want to make creeps think their hitting a hunter whereas its a chmp, hum, granted the creep targeting us can see from his/her target tooltip thingamabob what class/lvl/rank we are?


i will say u did say it was a time saving issue (if i remember right), but if the animation was there, then didn't it take more time to reset all the mobs to do another animation for that one or two skills?

[auximenes]

imo this is the same bs cover up thats been thrown around with outfits in the moors, don't want to make creeps think their hitting a hunter whereas its a chmp, hum, granted the creep targeting us can see from his/her target tooltip thingamabob what class/lvl/rank we are?

There's a model/texture-count component in play here too. If cosmetics were allowed, the number of unique models/textures needed to be loaded would go way up, which affects both server and client performance.

[floon]

Now with that said, Floon, ur good, one of the only devs that really gets into these disscussions.......but ur also beating around the bush on this one, the animation is there on other classes, was their for burgs, yet not anymore. You say some wanted it changed, but you can't link any of the former posts to show this and none of the lifer burgs can remember seeing any out there.

The only beating around the bush I'm doing is regarding the exact details of things with which I am not intimately familiar. There are aspects of our systems that I don't know by heart, because that's not my job. I make things *PRETTY*. Systems designers use the *PRETTY* things for their own nefarious purposes.

However, I've educated myself about most of the issues involved, to sort this out. It's good when things look like what they should look like, it's also good when appearances that have gameplay meaning look the same. There is conflict here: stuns that look like knockdowns, knockdowns that look like stuns, chaining of different states that shouldn't be chained, a situational aspect to skill usage that can make things clear under one circumstance but less clear under another.... it gets really complicated, and there's no easy answer.

And I'm not the one that dictates the answer in these situations. Systems design does, and they should, and I defer to them on these sorts of questions. They see the issues clearly: they know that if they choose Path A, they will get complaints about Issue B. If they choose Path B, they will get complaints about Issue A. When confronted with an issue that has ireconcilable problems that will result in complaints, they (and I don't think I'm speaking beyond my understanding, but I might get corrected) will generally go for decisions that enforce consistency. It's seldom wrong to favor gameplay clarity in that way.

The trip anim was out of sync with other conjunction anims and the combat states involved. When they did a pass over that stuff, it was the only "different" one, where appearance and function were not consistent. So they changed it to be consistent.

They're going to change it back. We talked, we discussed the options (simply changing the skill name is even more complicated than you might realize, because we incur localization costs for the text changes, and every reference everywhere has to be tracked down; nothing is ever easy...). There are inconsistencies that I will guarantee you will be complained about, that we will get CS issues opened on and bug reports about, but if "Ow! My immersion!" is *that* painful, then they're willing to make the change.

I point you to http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4057555 for a current example of this sort of thing in-action that we try to avoid. I didn't want white dyes because I knew what the results would be. People begged and begged, and I said again and again that it wouldn't be as good as I want, or that many would be happy with, but everyone was still all for it. So it's in, and there are complaints about everything I said there would be complaints about.

It's never as simple as you think.

[TheOneRinger]

The only beating around the bush I'm doing is regarding the exact details of things with which I am not intimately familiar. There are aspects of our systems that I don't know by heart, because that's not my job. I make things *PRETTY*. Systems designers use the *PRETTY* things for their own nefarious purposes.

However, I've educated myself about most of the issues involved, to sort this out. It's good when things look like what they should look like, it's also good when appearances that have gameplay meaning look the same. There is conflict here: stuns that look like knockdowns, knockdowns that look like stuns, chaining of different states that shouldn't be chained, a situational aspect to skill usage that can make things clear under one circumstance but less clear under another.... it gets really complicated, and there's no easy answer.

And I'm not the one that dictates the answer in these situations. Systems design does, and they should, and I defer to them on these sorts of questions. They see the issues clearly: they know that if they choose Path A, they will get complaints about Issue B. If they choose Path B, they will get complaints about Issue A. When confronted with an issue that has ireconcilable problems that will result in complaints, they (and I don't think I'm speaking beyond my understanding, but I might get corrected) will generally go for decisions that enforce consistency. It's seldom wrong to favor gameplay clarity in that way.

The trip anim was out of sync with other conjunction anims and the combat states involved. When they did a pass over that stuff, it was the only "different" one, where appearance and function were not consistent. So they changed it to be consistent.

They're going to change it back. We talked, we discussed the options (simply changing the skill name is even more complicated than you might realize, because we incur localization costs for the text changes, and every reference everywhere has to be tracked down; nothing is ever easy...). There are inconsistencies that I will guarantee you will be complained about, that we will get CS issues opened on and bug reports about, but if "Ow! My immersion!" is *that* painful, then they're willing to make the change.

I point you to http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4057555 for a current example of this sort of thing in-action that we try to avoid. I didn't want white dyes because I knew what the results would be. People begged and begged, and I said again and again that it wouldn't be as good as I want, or that many would be happy with, but everyone was still all for it. So it's in, and there are complaints about everything I said there would be complaints about.

It's never as simple as you think.

Huzzah! Tripping is fun! Thank you very much for your time and consideration, floon.

[Naethin]

They're going to change it back.

Sweet, I won't be complaining even if I do occasionally get confused on if that was a knockdown or a FM starter .

And people say the devs never listen to the players...

[Viloxus]

I'm so happy i'm going to go trip myself!

[ararax2]

I dont mind white dye

Looks nice on some stuff.