Floon: Any chance that trip will actually use the trip animation again?

[preorderkid]

Thanks a bundle floon. I am always super amazed with how involved you get. As for those other people who combed through all the FM starters. I don't think they did a very good job, because to my knowledge there is currently a knock down FM starter in live now.


Oh and btw, my entire cosmetic set, as well as a deal of my actual set, is died white. Thanks floon <3

[Mystarr]

Floon,

Thanks for taking the time to work through this. The time and effort you and your coworkers put into this game is greatly appreciated!

[bstrothe]

They're going to change it back.

Woot. I don't even have a burglar and I am happy to see the trip skill changed back. I don't think I want to lobby for the same change for guardians to get the knockdown animation back for Turn the Tables and To the King, though I would welcome it. It was cool, but neither skill actually says it trips.

Thanks Floon, you are awesome as usual. Also, even though white dye (isn't that just bleach?) isn't exactly what might typically be called white in the modern era, for the rough and medieval look we have in LotRO, I think it's fine as it is now.

Really I have always thought the art in LotRO is outstanding. My only beefs are the radiance-gating and legendary lottery, but they have both been talked to death and neither is something in your department as I understand it. My hope is that things will improve with Siege of Mirkwood and later updates, which is why both my wife and I are lifers.

[Gumble]

<3 White dye
<3 Trip
<3 Floon

...that is all

[floon]

Floon,

Thanks for taking the time to work through this. The time and effort you and your coworkers put into this game is greatly appreciated!

Thanks the systems team. They're the ones that are dealing with the hard issues.

I'm just wasting time posting.

[damnedangel1]

Thanks the systems team. They're the ones that are dealing with the hard issues.

I'm just wasting time posting.

communicating with the player base is never a waste of time.

We all wish more of you co-workers would take a few minutes out of their hectic day to comunicate with us once in a while too. Even if it is just to respond to something with a "we are actively following this discussion" or "never gonna happen"

[Goibhnie]

The only beating around the bush I'm doing is regarding the exact details of things with which I am not intimately familiar. There are aspects of our systems that I don't know by heart, because that's not my job. I make things *PRETTY*. Systems designers use the *PRETTY* things for their own nefarious purposes.

However, I've educated myself about most of the issues involved, to sort this out. It's good when things look like what they should look like, it's also good when appearances that have gameplay meaning look the same. There is conflict here: stuns that look like knockdowns, knockdowns that look like stuns, chaining of different states that shouldn't be chained, a situational aspect to skill usage that can make things clear under one circumstance but less clear under another.... it gets really complicated, and there's no easy answer.

And I'm not the one that dictates the answer in these situations. Systems design does, and they should, and I defer to them on these sorts of questions. They see the issues clearly: they know that if they choose Path A, they will get complaints about Issue B. If they choose Path B, they will get complaints about Issue A. When confronted with an issue that has ireconcilable problems that will result in complaints, they (and I don't think I'm speaking beyond my understanding, but I might get corrected) will generally go for decisions that enforce consistency. It's seldom wrong to favor gameplay clarity in that way.

The trip anim was out of sync with other conjunction anims and the combat states involved. When they did a pass over that stuff, it was the only "different" one, where appearance and function were not consistent. So they changed it to be consistent.

They're going to change it back. We talked, we discussed the options (simply changing the skill name is even more complicated than you might realize, because we incur localization costs for the text changes, and every reference everywhere has to be tracked down; nothing is ever easy...). There are inconsistencies that I will guarantee you will be complained about, that we will get CS issues opened on and bug reports about, but if "Ow! My immersion!" is *that* painful, then they're willing to make the change.

I point you to http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4057555 for a current example of this sort of thing in-action that we try to avoid. I didn't want white dyes because I knew what the results would be. People begged and begged, and I said again and again that it wouldn't be as good as I want, or that many would be happy with, but everyone was still all for it. So it's in, and there are complaints about everything I said there would be complaints about.

It's never as simple as you think.

Thank you Floon.

*marks out sad panda off list by Trip*

[bennyw2784]

<3 White dye
<3 Trip
<3 Floon

...that is all

Ditto This.

Floon and ZC FTW!!!

[swattz101]

Thanks the systems team. They're the ones that are dealing with the hard issues.

I'm just wasting time posting.

communicating with the player base is never a waste of time.

We all wish more of you co-workers would take a few minutes out of their hectic day to comunicate with us once in a while too. Even if it is just to respond to something with a "we are actively following this discussion" or "never gonna happen"

Hazaa....Floon, for all the complainers out there, know that there are those of us out there the appreciate the communication you and a couple of the other devs like you give us.

I point you to http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4057555 for a current example of this sort of thing in-action that we try to avoid. I didn't want white dyes because I knew what the results would be. People begged and begged, and I said again and again that it wouldn't be as good as I want, or that many would be happy with, but everyone was still all for it. So it's in, and there are complaints about everything I said there would be complaints about.

It's never as simple as you think.

<...Grin...> Just read that thread, and all I could think was "Floon warned you!!"

As for the above quote, you must be a parent. Sounds like some of my conversations with my kids.

"I want, I want, I want!!!"
"But you won't like it that way."
"But I want it!!!"
"But you won't like it."
"But I WANT IT!!!"
"OK, but don't say I didn't warn you"
......."Ewww..., I don't like this, why did you force me to get it"
"I told you so."

+10 for the above hidden "I told you so!!!"

[Arkarianor]

The only beating around the bush I'm doing is regarding the exact details of things with which I am not intimately familiar. There are aspects of our systems that I don't know by heart, because that's not my job. I make things *PRETTY*. Systems designers use the *PRETTY* things for their own nefarious purposes.

However, I've educated myself about most of the issues involved, to sort this out. It's good when things look like what they should look like, it's also good when appearances that have gameplay meaning look the same. There is conflict here: stuns that look like knockdowns, knockdowns that look like stuns, chaining of different states that shouldn't be chained, a situational aspect to skill usage that can make things clear under one circumstance but less clear under another.... it gets really complicated, and there's no easy answer.

And I'm not the one that dictates the answer in these situations. Systems design does, and they should, and I defer to them on these sorts of questions. They see the issues clearly: they know that if they choose Path A, they will get complaints about Issue B. If they choose Path B, they will get complaints about Issue A. When confronted with an issue that has ireconcilable problems that will result in complaints, they (and I don't think I'm speaking beyond my understanding, but I might get corrected) will generally go for decisions that enforce consistency. It's seldom wrong to favor gameplay clarity in that way.

The trip anim was out of sync with other conjunction anims and the combat states involved. When they did a pass over that stuff, it was the only "different" one, where appearance and function were not consistent. So they changed it to be consistent.

They're going to change it back. We talked, we discussed the options (simply changing the skill name is even more complicated than you might realize, because we incur localization costs for the text changes, and every reference everywhere has to be tracked down; nothing is ever easy...). There are inconsistencies that I will guarantee you will be complained about, that we will get CS issues opened on and bug reports about, but if "Ow! My immersion!" is *that* painful, then they're willing to make the change.

I point you to http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=4057555 for a current example of this sort of thing in-action that we try to avoid. I didn't want white dyes because I knew what the results would be. People begged and begged, and I said again and again that it wouldn't be as good as I want, or that many would be happy with, but everyone was still all for it. So it's in, and there are complaints about everything I said there would be complaints about.

It's never as simple as you think.

Great news about the animation - thank you for that.

Would you happen to have any insight or comments in response to the mechanics of the change, as questioned in these posts? I know it's not your job, but you seem to be the only one willing to give good responses around here, so I'm going to push the issue and try to get an answer. If it is asking too much or it's simply not an issue you want to respond to, that's fine, I'd just like it if someone responded to it, and it seems nobody else will.

Can I ask a serious question here?



This comment by LOTROSystems seems to explain that the reason for the change is that conjunction stuns, and warband maneuvers (monster versions) are "supposed to be a dangerous move." However, are the devs unaware that the conjunction stun skills are being used in PVP not to pull off a conjunction, but to take advantage of the 5 second incurable CC effect?

If a player is not grouped, and they hit a conjunction stun starting skill, no conjuction or warband maneuver will actually take place, because you need a group to do a 'conjunction' stun, you need a fellowship to do a 'fellowship manuever,' you need a warband to do a 'warband maneuver,' etc. So why do conjunction starting skills that don't actually start a conjunction because the player isn't grouped, still go through all skills and cannot be prevented or cured? LOTROSystems specifically states that the reason for this change is so that Warband Maneuvers or conjunctions, which were intended to be a powerful attack, cannot be cured or prevented. That's fine. But at the moment, conjunction starting skills that DO NOT start a conjunction because the person is not grouped, still are uncurable and unblockable. Is this working as intended? If so, why, when it doesn't go along with the goal LOTROSystems posted? If not, is a fix being worked on?



Second question. After your 'monitoring' of the PVMP experience after this change, and the extreme negative feedback you've received because of it, are there plans to change this back in the next book?

Why not? LOTROSystems clearly states that it will be monitored and adjusted to provide an enjoyable PvMP experience in the Ettenmoors, for all classes involved. As somebody who has played every single creep class to rank 5, including a rank 10, almost 11 warg, and a rank 8 reaver, and has three rank 7+ freep characters, I seriously dislike this change.

I would venture to say that 99.9% of your playerbase does NOT approve of this change, and would appreciate if it were removed. Or have you decided not to monitor the feedback as LOTROSystems said you would? Or you have you monitored the feedback, but decided you don't care if the fans don't like it, you're going to keep it that way anyway?

That's another reason we were given, yes. I'm not implying that you're not giving us the 'real reason,' but this is very hard to believe.

As of now, the change we're discussing has made it far more confusing than before to tell the difference.

If you're aware of the CC removal potions avilable in PVMP, they cure stuns, dazes/mezzes, and roots. The stun potions have never and still don't cure FM's or WBM's.

Before the change, if one was tripped, there was clearly a knockdown animation. Everybody knows that you cannot pot out of this state, and it was not confusing in the slightest. You can't pot out of things where you fall over.

Now, stuns, dazes, and conjunction stuns/FM's/WBM's use the EXACT SAME animation. This is incredibly confusing for all PvMP players; as people burn stun potions right and left not understanding that they were, in fact, conjunction stunned.

If anything, this change increases the confusion, instead of diminishing it. Are the devs aware of this issue, and if so, what is being done about it?

Thanks.

[Arkarianor]

As for those other people who combed through all the FM starters. I don't think they did a very good job, because to my knowledge there is currently a knock down FM starter in live now.

There is indeed a knockdown FM starter in live now - one example is the Warg Stalker's pounce skill. If the skill doesn't critical, it uses the FM/conjunction animation and does NOT start an FM/conjunction.

If it does critical, it uses the knockdown animation and DOES start an FM/conjunction.

Not a very thorough job by the design team devs, IMO. It's a huge possibility that I just don't understand the issue, but hopefully you can understand why your playerbase doesn't like the change, even if we are misled.

[floon]

communicating with the player base is never a waste of time.

Funny how you guys say that when you like the answers you get....

[FutenCake]

Funny how you guys say that when you like the answers you get....

The rest of the time we are unable to type nice things due to the froth and spittle gracing our screens. Incoherent rage is a messy thing.

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Funny how you guys say that when you like the answers you get....

I've said it even when I don't get an answer I like and I'm sure I'm not the only one. An answer is an answer, and it beats leaving the question hanging.

Thanks for all the effort here Floon nefarious Systems Team people. Burglars everywhere will absolutely love you for it.

[tanis0]

Funny how you guys say that when you like the answers you get....

Bah. I like any dev answer I get. I think a lot of people do. Despite the fact that most of your posts are explaining why something that people want probably isn't going to happen, I bet you still rate pretty high (probably #1) on people's favorite Dev lists because you actually talk to us, even knowing what's going to happen when you do. :P

And for the record, having a 60 Burglar and 60 Warden, I like things the way they are, not the way they were / are going to be again. Haha

[Goibhnie]

Funny how you guys say that when you like the answers you get....

Some guys will say ya'll are wasting their time. I will not despite the answer. The people that care and understand about the game and the devs time, don't either I believe. I'd say a Bad Apple forum title would be appropriate for some, but you shouldn't reward bad behavior. Unless of course you could also limit the number of posts they can post in a day

[gildhur]

They're going to change it back.

Thank you!

And thank you for providing such helpful context. We know things like this are never simple, but when it's as simple as a skill called "Trip" that used to, you know, trip, but doesn't anymore. It might not be simple to make work, but it's simple in the clarity of purpose.

Thank you, and thanks to Systems.

[Galahadur]

Thanks the systems team. They're the ones that are dealing with the hard issues.

I'm just wasting time posting.

In this time where all the Dev's just plainly stopped posting your attention has been a drop of fresh water into this deserted lands.

Thank you very much for your trouble floon

And posting time is greatly apprectiated. Please tell your higher ups that was not wasted time.

P.S. I love white Dye. It's not perfect but my Champion is using the GF (Angmar) Heavy Armour Shoulders, Boots and Gloves in white plus the Tier 1 Radiance Chest and Pants, all in white. He looks awesome!

[rent85]

<deleted...>

[Potvin]

Thanks to Floon, LOTROSystems, and anyone else working on fixing this.

The trip animation for me is one of the top 10 fun things about being a burglar (it's my primary class/char).

Ironically, the kick animation from counter defense is another

[damnedangel1]

Funny how you guys say that when you like the answers you get....

I don't have a burg, so this whole trip issue really didn't bother me at all. I was just following the thread because nerd rage is always entertaining, but not nearly as much as your posts have been known to be

I don't like the answer given on the minstrel healing root as it completly missed the point people were complaning about (which for the record is the root after bolster courage goes off). But none the less, I am happy knowing that someone somewhere took the time to give an answer, even if its not the answer I was looking for.

Thank you and thank all your fellow dev's who take the time not only to read the forums to see what prople are talking (or screaming) about, but to give your opinions and to answer our questions. Even when you know the answer is sure to be unpopular.

[Delirium]

In this time where all the Dev's just plainly stopped posting your attention has been a drop of fresh water into this deserted lands.

Thank you very much for your trouble floon

And posting time is greatly apprectiated. Please tell your higher ups that was not wasted time.

P.S. I love white Dye. It's not perfect but my Champion is using the GF (Angmar) Heavy Armour Shoulders, Boots and Gloves in white plus the Tier 1 Radiance Chest and Pants, all in white. He looks awesome!

Well Floon was wrong again!!! White dye has worked out pretty well, ok maybe he/she was only partially wrong about that then, it's not us who aren't happy with it. My disappointment is more along the number of things that can't be dyed period.

At least Floon can admit to being wrong on occasion which is a skillset his/her coworkers need to become acquainted with, especially in light of how much time they spend fixing mistakes they supposedly never made in the first place!

As for the the mob anime, just roll a hobbit warden and you can knock down giants and drakes all day long, problem solved.