Dev Diary Feedback: SoM Skirmishes: Rewards

[webrender]

Overall I have been and continue to be very excited about this new system (it's was a main factor in my decision to pre-order the upgrade). That being said I think this quote was the first thing I have read that made me a bit less excited:

As has been mentioned earlier, Skirmishes are meant to complement, not overshadow, the rest of the game. As such, the rewards are usually slightly less powerful than those found through endgame instances or top tier crafting.

I'm no raider and I had hoped that this system might allow me to pick up some items that I had never been able to without committing to the endless gating instance system that is currently in place. Even if it was an incredibly long grind a top notch reward floating out there as an eventual sure thing would have been very appealing to me.

Anyhow...Just my opinion....

Thanks for all the hard work on this Turbine!!!!

[ararax2]

I totally forgot to add that to the diary! Most of the tokens are group loot, so each fellowship member will get a copy of the mark if it is generated. No rolls required!

You have no idea how much I like that. Having to roll for loot is evil for me. I still have not won a turtle roll...

Bad dice.

[Adalas]

Ok, the biggest unanswered question is: Are there rad armor and first age LIs?
Let's start speculating:

Armour Vendors (Light, Medium, Heavy) - Full sets of light, medium, and heavy armour plus shields are available..., as well as some stronger endgame level 65 items.

What could be the stronger endgame items? For me they are rad armor, it's more or less the only endgame armor that's currently available. Maybe it's purple rad armor that has the same rad but slightly weaker stats than the instance armor. Would be a very good solution to me.

Legendary Items – Blanks (Unidentified Legendary Items)

I really hope you get lvl 65 1st Age LIs there. Probably for the most expensive level/size token(s) available but it would be worth it. Hey, you can get them in the auction house anyway.
Any hints, ZC?

[Tannus]

The skirmish system was always the most exciting part of SoM for myself. Solo and small fellowship repeatable instances is exactly what I've been wanting for a long time.
Now, knowing that i'll be able to get good rewards, even if they aren't the "best" rewards, has me chomping at the bit.

December 1st can't some soon enough

Fantastic work ZC and team.

[Zero_Out]

Marks are all bind on acquire. No gold-sellers in this system!

I'm not sure if I like this or not. I wish I could farm marks on my main, and pass them off to my alts as I'm levelling them. I also would like to consolidate them from all characters into one storage container. Afterall, I do this already with spirit stones from the Delving of Fror.

I don't treat my characters as individuals with their own personalities. To me, switching characters is like switching trait lines. They're just a different set of skills.

On the other hand, I see how gold sellers would love this sort of thing. Like I said, I have mixed feelings about this.

[skorpion352]

I'm not sure if I like this or not. I wish I could farm marks on my main, and pass them off to my alts as I'm levelling them. I also would like to consolidate them from all characters into one storage container. Afterall, I do this already with spirit stones from the Delving of Fror.

I don't treat my characters as individuals with their own personalities. To me, switching characters is like switching trait lines. They're just a different set of skills.

On the other hand, I see how gold sellers would love this sort of thing. Like I said, I have mixed feelings about this.

maybe they could try to find a way to bind items to an account. then all the current boa barter items could be changed to bind ot an account, to make lvling and gearing alts easier. its like when houseing first cameo ut, only the character who purchased the house could use the mailbox, port ot it and get the vendor discount, then when the next book came out, they were able to change it to be an account wide thing.

perhaps with skirmish marks they could use the same tech behind dp. that way, they could cut the amount of looting that needs to be done down to just the boss. afterall, zc himself has said they want to minimize the amount of looting. im nto sure how they would handle the other types of barter items, but for skirmish maraks at least, they coudl use the exsisting tech that is used for destiny points. its probably too late now ot change it for som launch as it would by no means be an easy task, but perhaps it is something they could look at for future releases

[Azuroth]

I did it once or twice for fun too. And to complete quests. I did it 10+ times for the rewards. I wouldn't have done it 10+ times just for fun. The rewards ensured I would play this content longer than just a couple times.

I would run the We Cannot Get Out instance every day, even if it cost me money to do it. Shoving orcs off the bridge with that horn knockback skill is the single most fun thing I have ever done in this game.

Or, just give Shield Smash knockback, then I don't have to grind instances, I can just hang out on the real bridge

[draconis666]

I'm sooooo glad this was the first post ;p I already have enough of a bad reputation at Turbine for bad grammer/spelling!

No problem. Always glad to help. ;p

[Lurkerinthemist]

Ugh I'm still not happy about the inventory thing. Is there only one kind of mark? What about these tokens? What is the impact on my bag space? I am SO TIRED of having to throw out something in order to pick up an item that is just going to have to stack anyway.

And can we please move towards having a single barter item? I would love to see SoA marks and Moria marks stack, I would love to see the barter tokens from the crafting instances stack with something else, I would love to see the gold leaves and silver branches stack with something. All of these...at least a full bag.

Otherwise, looks interesting. I'm glad I have a lvl 28 toon that will be right about 30 when the skirmishes come out so I can try the lowbie ones :-)

[Jadzi]

Or, just give Shield Smash knockback, then I don't have to grind instances, I can just hang out on the real bridge

I'd love playing with a knockback skill no matter the class it ended up on, though I agree on it going to Guardians. After all, they already get a conditional knock-down. Besides, it fits better with their combat motif. That said, I can only imagine the issues it might raise, from mobs being knocked out of zone, to areas that bug them out, or even through walls. Sure there's code to combat it, but we know from experience that players always find new and ever more creative ways to break things.

Anyway, back on topic.

What could be the stronger endgame items? For me they are rad armor, it's more or less the only endgame armor that's currently available. Maybe it's purple rad armor that has the same rad but slightly weaker stats than the instance armor. Would be a very good solution to me.

Key point to make here is ZC's statement that skirmishes are not meant to overshadow traditional content, and the gear rewards are thus inferior. While I wouldn't put it past them to include it, I would think the gear would be below even the level of the +15 radiance pieces.

I really hope you get lvl 65 1st Age LIs there. Probably for the most expensive level/size token(s) available but it would be worth it..

We can dream, no?

Again, skirmishes aren't meant to overshadow the mainstream content. What sense would it make to put what will arguably be the single most coveted kind of weapon into the skirmish system, when you have the "deadliest raid yet" sitting in the new end-game area? If they were to include first ages in the skirmish NPC rewards, they would be more likely to do so with level 59/60 ones - and at that, far MORE likely to have the exorbitant cost you mention be for a single Nimrodel emblem.

No, I imagine that if anything, the first ages will come from either the new 12-man, or some other lengthy and challenging method of acquisition. Much as you had to beat the original Watcher to get one originally and easier methods have been added over time, the 65 first ages will be highly difficult to obtain, at least at launch.

Hey, you can get them in the auction house anyway

Sure, if you have 15-30 Gold in spare change. Or 300 if you're a hunter.

[Adalas]

Key point to make here is ZC's statement that skirmishes are not meant to overshadow traditional content, and the gear rewards are thus inferior.

We can dream, no?
Sure, if you have 15-30 Gold in spare change. Or 300 if you're a hunter.

Btw I am a hunter and just bought a 60 bow for 30g.
But I think overshadowed would mean better content. The same content in more time would be fine for me AND it would fit to "not overshadowed". And they were putting first age weapons into the gift boxes. I still dream.

[spiritintelligencia]

Thank you for this great diary ZC! I was really looking forward to hearing about the rewards and they sound exactly as I expected and even more.

I have a few questions... Could you give an example of an average reward scenario so we can see it a little more concretely? For example:

Muddy(45), Lila(45), and Stoutarrow(60) enter the Bree skirmish. They choose medium difficulty. They complete the skirmish successfully within 15 minutes. They complete 3 alternate objectives, 1 secret objective, kill one Lieutenant... and on and on................... Muddy and Lila receive 118 marks..... etc...

Question 2 - Will skirmish soldiers end up as cookie cutters? For example, is every Guardian going to choose a healer and every healer going to choose a Guardian, or is there enough variety in the system to encourage experimentation with different class combos?

[Elfheart]

As for marks, they are vendor items, so they will be taking inventory space. We are doing what we can to minimize the impact, for instance the basic Skirmish Mark has a stack size in the millions

Could you PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do this for a few other items in the game like rep items or the silly junk loot which only stacks to the astronomically low number of 10 for instance? Every item in the game should at least stack to 20.

[Jadzi]

Btw I am a hunter and just bought a 60 bow for 30g.

Which only proves the major part of the statement. The latter end was in jest, referring to a past incident on Landy.

But I think overshadowed would mean better content. The same content in more time would be fine for me AND it would fit to "not overshadowed". And they were putting first age weapons into the gift boxes. I still dream.

I think the statements are pretty clear. The entire intent of skirmishes is to be a passtime, kinda like a minigame. Something people -can- go do if they want to take a break from the landscaped quest-and-instance progression. "Popcorn instances" they can run in the better part of an hour, enjoy, and perhaps run another one or two. They're fast-paced enough in kills that some devs think players won't have time to loot - another indication of relative ease and speedy pace.

However, they don't want everyone to stop playing LOTRO proper in favor of the side content. If the shinies come from a minigame people can play in their houses, what point would there be to go out to Mirkwood? They could stay home and grind, grind, grind for First Ages, runes, etc., only venturing out to pick up their loot as one would groceries. Raids? Group content? Also achieved via skirmishes from their houses.

It'd be kinda like an MMO inside Middle-Earth. Real life versus a diversion from it.

Now, naturally they want people to go out and run the new raids (work and school if we were to continue the silly comparison above), not stay home grinding. They don't want the skirmish system to supplant the intended landscape and raid content, they want it to be a diversion. And so, the higher rewards are out in the landscape and raid content.

[nezitx]

I am sure this has been asked, but I haven't seen a dev response to it:

The dairy mentions that you can turn in the marks for Legendary Items... can you get 1st ages?

[Zombie_Columbus]

The dairy mentions that you can turn in the marks for Legendary Items... can you get 1st ages?

The rarity level of LI's available from Skirmish is still in flux. I can guarantee this: the rewards from Skirmish will change over time.

A lot of truth.

Jadzi is totally understands what we are gunning for with Skirmishes. That said, MMO systems only have 1 constant: change. As players vote with their play time, we will constantly re-address where Skirmishes fit in the game overall.

I have a few questions... Could you give an example of an average reward scenario so we can see it a little more concretely?

Question 2 - Will skirmish soldiers end up as cookie cutters? For example, is every Guardian going to choose a healer and every healer going to choose a Guardian, or is there enough variety in the system to encourage experimentation with different class combos?

Good questions. A similar bit of feedback showed up on the EU boards, and here was my responce:

Skirmish Rewards
1- Goto the Skrimish Camp and find some stuff you want to get
2- Play Skirmishes until you have enough marks to get that stuff
3- Goto 1

To elaborate a touch more, all Skirmish rewards can be browsed at the Skirmish Camp. There are many, many vendors to look at, but they will all have the prices of their loot listed. Straight SM purchases are simple. All special marks are also fairly easy, since all such marks say exactly what kinds of Skirmishes to run to get them. For instance, the Third Mark mentioned above has tooltip text that says it is found in level 60-65 Skirmishes run by solo players or small fellowships.

For question 2, trying to predict how "cookie-cutter" the average player will trend towards is nearly imposible. In MMO's, you will often see many players stick to one build (even if we, as developers believe it to be sub-optimal) because "common knowledge" is that it is the best. I will say that, much like with LOTRO classes, we will address outliers (buff weak things, nerf strong things) and attempt to add more variety into the system in the future.

[Yogol]

# Optional encounters have chances of dropping campaign marks.
# Lieutenants have chances of dropping size/level marks.
# Bosses have increased chances of dropping size/level marks, as well as a good amount of coin.

So, it is a lottery ? If you are lucky, you get a mark, if you are unlucky, you get... nothing ?

[jonno]

So, it is a lottery ? If you are lucky, you get a mark, if you are unlucky, you get... nothing ?

I think it's more like if you get lucky you get a special mark. If you're unlucky you still get normal skirmish marks, but you might not get a special mark...so better than nothing, but not quite as good as if you'd gotten lucky.

Kind of like if you get a really nice drop in an instance versus the more common stuff. The common stuff isn't "nothing", it's just not the special reward.

[BINKLEY1]

Congratulations for the best "crunchy" dev posting! Just wonderful stuff, really. Like opening a crisp, new Player's Handbook. (Not knocking LOTRO -- this post brought me back to my younger days with 1st Edition books; priceless.)

On my scorecard, you & Orion are now tied for best lengthy employee writings (his blog posts on revamping the LL are just as good). Thanks for so much effort. It's obviously not easy to turn out diary entries like this one.

Here's looking for a 3rd Turbinite to step forward.

Cheers,
Gloimli

P.S. -- Emacs beats vi.

[BINKLEY1]

Quoth the Zombie Columbus:

Weapons - Similar to Armour, but the selection shifts at level 50+ (when Legendary Items become available) and only off-hand items are sold.

What if my class does not have an "off-hand" weapon? I.e., I play Guardian and Warden -- does this mean my shield or my oddball belt or wooden geegaw?

Thanks!

[Jadzi]

What if my class does not have an "off-hand" weapon? I.e., I play Guardian and Warden -- does this mean my shield or my oddball belt or wooden geegaw?

Thanks!

No worries, just looking at the wrong NPC. Shields are grouped with armor.

Armour Vendors (Light, Medium, Heavy) - Full sets of light, medium, and heavy armour plus shields are available for levels 30, 33, 37, 40, 43, 47, 50, 53, 57, 60, 63 and 65, as well as some stronger endgame level 65 items. At each level band, there are a few "Veteran" items.

[Forohir]

Btw I am a hunter and just bought a 60 bow for 30g.
But I think overshadowed would mean better content. The same content in more time would be fine for me AND it would fit to "not overshadowed". And they were putting first age weapons into the gift boxes. I still dream.

Tht's a shame, seeing as how it will be out-dps'd by level 63 third age items in a month.

[Southpa]

As players vote with their play time, we will constantly re-address where Skirmishes fit in the game overall.

How accurate is this, though? If you look at how people spend their time now, it's because most of them are exploring end-game content. Meaning, what is big now will not be so big in about a month.

If you introduce content that is such a major part of the end-game (skirmishes), one can reasonably assume a large portion of people are only doing it because of what is currently available. I know it's not end-game to all, as there are lower level skirmishes, but a significant chunk of the population will be doing them in a few months because....well, there won't be much else relevant for them to do.

So in the end, their presence begets a fraction of their perceived "popularity" simply because of a lack of alternatives.

You will need surveys for live if you want a real idea of how people feel.

[TheScyphozoa]

ZC,

You started it but I'll have to vote for Emacs any day over Vi. All those ~ used to drive me crazy!

REAL programmers use butterflies.

[Zombie_Columbus]

REAL programmers use butterflies.

We will not make this a xkcd debate. No way.