Dev Diary Feedback: SoM Combat Changes

[Clover]

The Lord of the Rings Online™: Siege of Mirkwood™ expansion introduces exciting changes for the player combat system, and this developer diary will cover everything you need to know in the new world of combat!

Read more about the combat changes and post your comments here!

[Hembor]

1st! yay! Anyways, Thank you for making weapon speed standard, I do not know many times people have told me that I should use axes, and AXES ROOL!!! and Dude, Axes are the best.
And for making knives actually useful. (BTW SWORDS FTW!!!) And the skill changes are awsome too. Still, what have you guys done with the champs? I WANNA KNOW. NOW.
/end ramblings
So... Good job overall.

[gloinfast]

I just want to hug you guys for this *hug*


you rock!!!

* falls over weeping with joy *

[JimAdams]

As a melee kind of guy, I'm totally excited about these changes. I wonder how long it will take to get adjusted mentally...

STAMP STAMP STAMP! Take that you stinkin' self-healing orc!

[Hellgato]

I absolutely LOVE the normalizing of weapons speeds. My champ will finally get to use a sword!

On the immediate skill use: Does that mean I can fire off a Ferocious Strike, and then right away throw in a Clobber (an immediate skill), and the ferocious strike will still execute, but faster? We get the full effect of the previous skill with the immediate skill?

[Thane9]

I absolutely LOVE the normalizing of weapons speeds. My champ will finally get to use a sword!

On the immediate skill use: Does that mean I can fire off a Ferocious Strike, and then right away throw in a Clobber (an immediate skill), and the ferocious strike will still execute, but faster? We get the full effect of the previous skill with the immediate skill?

This is a GREAT question. Will "interrupted" skills still fire? Will that vary by the skill in question? Will skills themselves even be interruptable or is that only auto attacks?

I foresee a massive slaughterfest of about 2000 orcs just to practice these timing issues. Time to relearn the class I spent all these years mastering...heh.

[Angis]

"Powerful Creatures

Players aren’t the only ones to receive enhanced combat effectiveness. As the power of Sauron increases, the most evil creatures throughout Middle-earth grow in might. Care should be taken when fighting powerful creatures; they are now much more dangerous than you may remember.

What does this mean for me?

The change above will affect Elite, Elite Master, Nemesis, and Arch-nemesis creature types from level 30 and above. These powerful creatures will do more damage and have bonuses to their critical ratings."

Why did you feel the need to do this?

So now, flake droppers that are currently really tough, will be impossible to solo?

Not to mention the two bounty mobs. I'm guessing they'll be eating their Wheaties too

/sad face

[Tom-Dragon]

I absolutely LOVE the normalizing of weapons speeds. My champ will finally get to use a sword!

On the immediate skill use: Does that mean I can fire off a Ferocious Strike, and then right away throw in a Clobber (an immediate skill), and the ferocious strike will still execute, but faster? We get the full effect of the previous skill with the immediate skill?

I doubt that Clobber adds as much damage in mirkwood as it does now though.

My main problem with this combat system is the fact that "skill queue" between skills is what balanced DW with 2h on the champ. If they're taking that away, or severely reducing its effectiveness, it will also upset that balance.

Here comes the big question. If the scale tips WAY in favor of DW, will they fix it?

[gildhur]

On the immediate skill use: Does that mean I can fire off a Ferocious Strike, and then right away throw in a Clobber (an immediate skill), and the ferocious strike will still execute, but faster? We get the full effect of the previous skill with the immediate skill?

Yes. Not only do auto-attacks happen "underneath" skills without having to wait for them, but if you use an Immediate skill during another skill animation, the Immediate skill will fire...immediately. So if you use Clobber during Brutal/Relentless/whatever, you get an extra free hit without having to wait for it. It could be a very significant buff for players who learn how to weave their skills into each other in that way.

[shoreless]

It's funny because I can get on here but my work firewall blocks lotro.com itself, so I can't read the diary. Oh well, I'm sure it's wonderful!

/pointless

[Tom-Dragon]

Why did you feel the need to do this?

So now, flake droppers that are currently really tough, will be impossible to solo?

Not to mention the two bounty mobs. I'm guessing they'll be eating their Wheaties too

/sad face

I don't know about you, but I HOPE that you can no longer solo master elites. That's just poor balance and game design on their part. Master elites were never meant to be "solo mobs" and now you can go ahead and have a challenge for once...maybe.

Also, flakes drop everywhere for me. They're now a random drop throughout most instances and the rest of the world. Flake "droppers" ("named" mobs as many call them) have significantly decreased in their usefulness. Its kinda sad really. Since there's no GOOD random loot, you have no reason to kill a mob that has a higher chance of dropping items. The only things you want to kill are mobs that have specific loot tables. That's the /sadface part of this game IMHO.

Maybe they should change them to drop Legendary Shards. Named throughout Mirkwood could have a high chance of dropping a random number of Legendary Shards seeing as how the new LI system will require a good deal of them.

[gildhur]

Why did you feel the need to do this?

So now, flake droppers that are currently really tough, will be impossible to solo?

Not to mention the two bounty mobs. I'm guessing they'll be eating their Wheaties too

/sad face

There are signature and normal flake droppers in Waterworks in Moria.

Elites and higher will not be impossible to solo, but they will be more difficult. Good player skill can compensate for any mob buff.

Also, you can now get flakes from skirmish barter, completely solo!

[oldbustedjorn]

Between the upgraded elites+ and the Guardian morale boost, I'm hoping that Guards are just a bit more tank-y as I've found myself running in OP more and more...

[Phivex]

On the immediate skill use: Does that mean I can fire off a Ferocious Strike, and then right away throw in a Clobber (an immediate skill), and the ferocious strike will still execute, but faster? We get the full effect of the previous skill with the immediate skill?

Executing an "Immediate" skill will 'truncate' any executing skill; 'interrupt' probably isn't the correct word. The current skill animation will be stopped, all remaining payout delivered (yes, you get the full damage/effects of the current skill) and then the "Immediate" skill will execute. You will definitely find some interesting new skill chains with this capability...

[gildhur]

Between the upgraded elites+ and the Guardian morale boost, I'm hoping that Guards are just a bit more tank-y as I've found myself running in OP more and more...

On that, you can no longer use a shield in OP at all. So if you're OP, you have to go 2H anyway. I think all the changes in this update combined are going to do wonders for reviving the role of a true tank.

[Beldacar]

The addition of instant skills sounds good; the rest sounds like a very weak solution indeed.

The result of normalizing weapon speeds will just be to change the "optimal" weapon. I.e., all else being equal (and animation issues resolved), spears will become almost mandatory for Wardens. Also, including daggers in the one-handed weapons category is going to lead to a lot of silliness: I just know I'm going to see Guardians and Captains using daggers as their main hand weapon within hours of SoM going live. Not to mention xbows and bows having equal speeds. *groan*

I'm also not thrilled with speeding up the combat. Maybe it's slow in comparison to WoW (I wouldn't know, have never played WoW) or Mage of Conan, but it's plenty fast compared to EQ2, Vanguard, or any of the older MMOs. I don't mind combat being more "responsive" (trying to interrupt anything with Stamp has always been an exercise in frustration), but if it leads to an even higher rate of button-mashing, that's going to make some of my characters essentially unplayable for me.

Yes, I know I'm probably in the minority here. *shrug*

Guess I'll have to see how it plays out. But it doesn't sound good from where I'm sitting....

[Tom-Dragon]

On that, you can no longer use a shield in OP at all. So if you're OP, you have to go 2H anyway. I think all the changes in this update combined are going to do wonders for reviving the role of a true tank.

Yeah, if they don't sap the out of the guard's power bar b/c of the quick-firing skills. Oh yeah, and they did balance that too right? Power consumption. Please tell me they didn't make combat WAY faster and leave everyone's power costs and regen the same. Nah, what am I thinkin'. This is TURBINE we're talkin about. They're balance kings!

[Ruthelia]

Well i'm disappointed in general with these changes. Not so much the standardisation of weapon speed but the removal of the close association of skills and their animations. Gone soon it seems are the days where i'll be able to get a clear indication of what skills others in my fellowship are using just from looking at them in combat and then tailor my own skills accordingly. And the fact that auto-attacks seems to be able to 'hidden' attacks now if a little bit silly. But i guess that's what it's like in other MMOs, so why be different right? We'll just have to see what it is exactly like once SoM ships of course, hopefully i'm wrong.

I do look forward to enemies being nastier though. Anything that makes the game more difficult in that regard gets a plus from me. So it's not all bad, Turbine's just shooting themselves in the foot in terms of the romance their combat system had.

[oldbustedjorn]

On that, you can no longer use a shield in OP at all. So if you're OP, you have to go 2H anyway. I think all the changes in this update combined are going to do wonders for reviving the role of a true tank.

Well I meant OP with a 2H, even sometimes when I'm MT

I know some people swear by 1H + OP... but I never used it personally. Too little utility for the power cost... And I think someone said that OP legacies would be removed from 1H weapons.

[Ruthelia]

Yeah, if they don't sap the sh!t out of the guard's power bar b/c of the quick-firing skills. Oh yeah, and they did balance that too right? Power consumption. Please tell me they didn't make combat WAY faster and leave everyone's power costs and regen the same.

Doesn't matter if they did, everyone will be in the same boat. It will be interesting to see though.

[anwar]

I like the normalization of weapon speeds...heh a burgler just doesn't look "right" without daggers somehow, will be nice to use them w/o hampering damage.

A couple of clarifications please:

It appears both players and mobs are getting buffed...will the end result be that normal mobs will be easier and bosses will be harder? Thus instances and raids will be harder? Heh, many of us haven't been able to even do the watcher, much less the newest raid. Will the non-hardcore be able to do the instance and raid bosses or should the non-hardcore simply enjoy the general world and maybe skirmishes and forget about raids and instances?

I don't quite understand the combat changes...is it kinda like "twitch" ability will end up being a major requirement for effective play, kinda like that in FPS or team games?

Will flake droppers now be undoable by normal players gong solo?

Will level 65 be mostly cosmetic? This could be good for keeping level 60 content alive as long as folks don''t have to be super gamers to play.

[Hydragyrum]

I agree that I don't want this to turn into button-mashing MMO #37. I liked the slower stategic combat style over the fast twitch reflex style. Hopefully they didn't go extreme, I don't find that play style relaxing, and it makes it very difficult to play after enjoying a few beers! I guess I'll find out tonight on Bullroarer.

I'm ok with them buffing up mobs. We're all going to get 5 more levels soon, better weapons, better gear. It's nice to know level 60 content will still be challenging.

[gildhur]

It appears both players and mobs are getting buffed...will the end result be that normal mobs will be easier and bosses will be harder? Thus instances and raids will be harder? Heh, many of us haven't been able to even do the watcher, much less the newest raid. Will the non-hardcore be able to do the instance and raid bosses or should the non-hardcore simply enjoy the general world and maybe skirmishes and forget about raids and instances?

Bosses will be harder, trash will be easier. From what I've heard, the BG raid is very difficult. I don't think it's been cleared yet in beta, even with some of the hardest of the hardcore running it.

The instance cluster is another story, though. Most of it should be completely PUGable.

I don't quite understand the combat changes...is it kinda like "twitch" ability will end up being a major requirement for effective play, kinda like that in FPS or team games?

It's not really "twitch", it's just that you don't have to wait for auto-attacks now, immediate skills fire immediately, and all skills will be faster for anyone who was using axe/mace before. It's faster, but it's not really "button mashing". You still have to use skills intelligently to get the job done. You just use them faster now.

[Xpheyel]

Yeah, if they don't sap the sh!t out of the guard's power bar b/c of the quick-firing skills. Oh yeah, and they did balance that too right? Power consumption. Please tell me they didn't make combat WAY faster and leave everyone's power costs and regen the same. Nah, what am I thinkin'. This is TURBINE we're talkin about. They're balance kings!

Regen is up from Fate in the current build.

Power costs for the amount of damage did seem bad on my Captain in previous revs but they seem better now.

---

The big thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the Ranged/Melee damage calculation was revamped. Might/Agility now get multiplied by a class-based number which to give an Offense Rating. The Offense Rating translates into a straight % increase to damage.

As a result, you now see your damage range right in your tool tips instead of "Mainhand Weapon Damage + X".

So for example, my Captain with a Banner of War planted has ~511 Might. My class multiplier is 10, so I get 5110 melee offense rating. That translates into about +17.5% Damage at level 60. The Banner of War gives me another 20%, they just get added to together so I get a +37.5% to my outgoing melee damage.

If I look at my Defensive Strike tool tip, I can see it's range like:
1.375 * Weapon Minimum Damage to 1.375 * Weapon Maximum Damage + Skill Bonus Damage

It looks insanely impressive to have a nearly 40% Damage increase but skill damage is still down compared to live. My overall DPS in my parses as a Captain was also down somewhat. It seems more important to me now that you have a good damage rotation and your class has spammable skills of some type. In my case, I'm using essentially the same rotation as live because otherwise you run out of damage skills and are left waiting on Defensive Strike or Battle Shout to cooldown. The main benefit of the new system from my perspective is that its easier to pop certain abilities like defeat reactives and throwing emergency heals.

---

One other side effect of the new system is that slotting -Attack Duration seems far less important to me now. Wardens can use it to good effect apparently.

[tuor66]

I agree that I don't want this to turn into button-mashing MMO #37. I liked the slower stategic combat style over the fast twitch reflex style. Hopefully they didn't go extreme,

I think they hit a good middle ground. I now find the Live servers kinda slow.