Dev Diary Feedback: Volume I Revised Edition

[KouklaGirl]

Just curious...

If you guys have the tech in skirmishes for the NPC's to scale to a characters level or even to the number of people in the group and their basic makeup, why not apply the same tech here instead of using an uber-buff "band-aid" called IG?

The use of IG gives me no desire to do the Epic Quests if I roll a new character anytime in the future because I know I'll get an uber-buff in the end which will, in my opinion, dumb down the instance and make me feel like I really didn't accomplish anything.

[darkchronus]

Yes. You can go solo, duo, trio, quad or with 5 or 6. Buffs will diminish with each new member of your fellowship.

... I know this may be beating a dead horse... but does this only apply to landscape fellowship quests, or instanced ones as well? I noticed the quests that are instances have red text that mention solo or fellowship, but none of the specific language that implies smaller groups are buffed (2, 3, 4, 5?).

[Fredelas]

No. This has not yet been fixed. There are still some significant technical hurdles that need to be addressed before we can complete that transition. If we could have done it in this time frame, we would have.

What strong imperative is motivating Turbine to release this overhaul before it's ready? I feel like we're being treated like guinea pigs. Isn't that what the Isenguard and Bullroarer testing projects are for?

Are new players seriously leaving the game because they can't get past Volume 1 Book 1 on their own? Is implementing this system in bits and pieces really expected to keep that many more subscriptions active? Or was it just decided by someone higher up that there needed to be an extra "deliverable" for this patch?

I feel this approach to deployment is seriously flawed. Don't get me wrong. I agree with these systems changes being made. I just wish they could stay in beta until they're really ready for prime time.

[lf2536]

What strong imperative is motivating Turbine to release this overhaul before it's ready? I feel like we're being treated like guinea pigs. Isn't that what the Isenguard and Bullroarer testing projects are for?

Are new players seriously leaving the game because they can't get past Volume 1 Book 1 on their own? Is implementing this system in bits and pieces really expected to keep that many more subscriptions active? Or was it just decided by someone higher up that there needed to be an extra "deliverable" for this patch?

I feel this approach to deployment is seriously flawed. Don't get me wrong. I agree with these systems changes being made. I just wish they could stay in beta until they're really ready for prime time.

book 2 was this way till now, it has not changed, it's the only book affected in such away that you can use pools only for the version you played, all the subsequent books allow you to enter the same instance regardless of group size and repeat later regardless of group size. evetually they'll fix book 2, but it has been this way since SoM was launched so I don't understand the source of the complaint.

[janderz990]

What strong imperative is motivating Turbine to release this overhaul before it's ready? I feel like we're being treated like guinea pigs. Isn't that what the Isenguard and Bullroarer testing projects are for?

Are new players seriously leaving the game because they can't get past Volume 1 Book 1 on their own? Is implementing this system in bits and pieces really expected to keep that many more subscriptions active? Or was it just decided by someone higher up that there needed to be an extra "deliverable" for this patch?

I feel this approach to deployment is seriously flawed. Don't get me wrong. I agree with these systems changes being made. I just wish they could stay in beta until they're really ready for prime time.

I think "before it's ready" is a bit of a misnomer, since the Devs had X amount of time to accomplish all of their goals for this patch, of which I am sure there were many. If Orion and the engineers have already put Y hours into Volume 1 revisions, and vaulting this technical hurdle will take tens of man-hours that could be better used elsewhere, the Devs have to act like economists by noting the diminishing marginal utility of Volume 1 revisions (especially compared to other features/fixes), understanding the scarcity of their time-resource, and accordingly make the most efficient decision.

In other words, I'm quite happy that we have the Volume 1 revisions - "ready" or not - since I think that we will never see the stage of "ready" that you feel we deserve (which is a good thing since it means the Devs are efficiently spending their time by working on something else).

[Fredelas]

I meant that I would rather not have it at all than have it with half a dozen asterisks attached. If no more resources are available to continue the development of this, there's nothing shameful about just shelving it. It happens all the time in the software industry.

If, however, development is going to continue on this system, I don't see why we couldn't be patient and wait for it in a more polished state.

At least before this new system, things were consistent and predictable, even if they were more difficult or time consuming. Yes, I will almost certainly take advantage of it. But I would have preferred to wait and take advantage of it later.

[lf2536]

I meant that I would rather not have it at all than have it with half a dozen asterisks attached. If no more resources are available to continue the development of this, there's nothing shameful about just shelving it. It happens all the time in the software industry.

If, however, development is going to continue on this system, I don't see why we couldn't be patient and wait for it in a more polished state.

At least before this new system, things were consistent and predictable, even if they were more difficult or time consuming. Yes, I will almost certainly take advantage of it. But I would have preferred to wait and take advantage of it later.

here's the thing though, only book 2 is affected thus, the new system is WAI on ALL books other then book 2, Orion managed to do what he had set out to: make all of volume 1 doable with less a then a full group. yes, book 2 could use some polish, but other than that I call this a job well done.

[BakaNiNaru]

It is odd how prevalent the "now I can finish the content" sentiment seems to be. In all honesty, if one has not completed volume I, you have not really even tried. I am on a fairly low population server even, and though one cannot get a group together any given day one wants, one can still quite easily find groups often enough to complete the entire volume I even through PUGs.

[Lurkerinthemist]

Bandaid approach

However, I appreciate that now some people who might have been frustrated and quit will now have another part of the game to enjoy. I LIKE that Turbine is investing in the lower areas - the more happy newcomers, the more endgame people there will be eventually. I was really fortunate to meet up with some nice people while I was leveling, and I managed to get all the epics done on-level. I wish everyone could have done this. 15.12 was so well crafted and challenging for a group - even trying to do it at 60. I really felt like I "earned" my horse.

FYI: it takes 30 marks for a Sealed Writ of Helegrod, 16 for Annuminas, 8 for Angmar. You exchange these writs at barter NPCs to get one piece of gear. You do NOT need the other pieces from the instances to get the armour. There are cooldowns, I think 3 days? but can't specifically remember, that prevent you from accumulating vast numbers of marks in a day. And I think there were cooldowns on redeeming for the writs or turning in the writs also, so even if you could accumulate the marks, you couldn't trade them all in. It was set so you'd get a piece a month, if I remember right. Basically, I think they wanted you to still run the instances, and use this system to just get that last piece or whatever.

Allowing people to repeat the epic instances was the first smart thing they did to address finding groups for Vol 1. Then providing some sort of reward for doing it (the marks barter system) was also smart. But then everyone moved on to Moria, and there was absolutely no incentive to go back and re-run those Vol 1 instances.

I always believed that they could have kept people running the Vol 1 instances if they had just upped the rewards, removed some of the cooldowns, and allowed the SoA marks to accumulate towards MoM marks. It's all about carrots, amirite? I really wish they had tried that first before going the solo route.

*deleted a bunch of stuff about why grouping while leveling is important*

Limit this to just the epic line, ok? please?

[King_Numenorean]

First I have to say yay
I was hoping something like this would happen after seeing how they dealed with bk 9 for mirkwood. Sadly, I don't think anybody will even bother grouping anymore. I dont see why they would have to make the entire volume 1 soloable... it was easy enough and still easy enough to find groups up to bk 4. Shouldn't the last quest at least stay as a fellowship quest? Now that people are going to spend time getting through the epics, I think it would be easy enough if all anyone had to worry about grouping for was 1.15.12.

p.s. I can finally finish my discipline deed in eregion for the epics

[ydoc]

If i am already on a particular chapter of book 1 that was never finished like say chaptet 11. Will i still have option to use the solo route or will i have missed it?

[gildhur]

If i am already on a particular chapter of book 1 that was never finished like say chaptet 11. Will i still have option to use the solo route or will i have missed it?

Book 1 is completely soloable anyway by design. But you can take more people in to burn it down if you like.

[Orion]

... I know this may be beating a dead horse... but does this only apply to landscape fellowship quests, or instanced ones as well? I noticed the quests that are instances have red text that mention solo or fellowship, but none of the specific language that implies smaller groups are buffed (2, 3, 4, 5?).

Landscape and instances will scale according to the solo, duo, trio, quad and 5+ rules.

[Orion]

What strong imperative is motivating Turbine to release this overhaul before it's ready? I feel like we're being treated like guinea pigs. Isn't that what the Isenguard and Bullroarer testing projects are for?

Are new players seriously leaving the game because they can't get past Volume 1 Book 1 on their own? Is implementing this system in bits and pieces really expected to keep that many more subscriptions active? Or was it just decided by someone higher up that there needed to be an extra "deliverable" for this patch?

I feel this approach to deployment is seriously flawed. Don't get me wrong. I agree with these systems changes being made. I just wish they could stay in beta until they're really ready for prime time.

This system is implemented as completely as it can be...it is not being introduced piecemeal. What this answer was in relevance too were the two quests in the Lonelands, that used the first iteration of this inspired greatness with the release of Siege of Mirkwood.

Interestingly, the issues that we need to address have been around for a very long time in the game and have nothing to do with Inspired Greatness. The deliverable in this patch was because I wanted to get the Volume I quests accessible to players as soon as possible. Inspired Greatness is ready for primetime...yes there are some minor balance issues that will still need addressing, but the changes to the epic story are complete.

We just need to solve some long standing issues for existing quests and how the reflecting pools will interact with them.

[Orion]

Bandaid approach

Limit this to just the epic line, ok? please?

We plan to leave this solution for the Epic story only, possible only for the Volume I pieces of the epic story.

[Orion]

If i am already on a particular chapter of book 1 that was never finished like say chaptet 11. Will i still have option to use the solo route or will i have missed it?

This was part of the comprehensive solution that we used for inspired greatness. If you were previously on the quest and it was unfinished...it may be removed from your journal, but you will be able to attempt it solo...

[aleczander]

We plan to leave this solution for the Epic story only, possible only for the Volume I pieces of the epic story.

Never say never, I feel if this approach is generally well-received, then the same things should happen to Vol II, once we've moved on to the end of Vol III or later.

I do agree about the writs though - if there were more incentives/rewards/carrots for max level players, then all that old content would still be used, and ppl would be less bored.

[Jadzi]

Never say never, I feel if this approach is generally well-received, then the same things should happen to Vol II, once we've moved on to the end of Vol III or later.

I get the feeling that it isn't just a question about eventually adding a solo option to Volume II or not, but also whether or not this particular method will be used.

Keep in mind that most of Volume II also gates a Legendary Trait, so if/when the time comes that Moria instances are as deserted as Carn Dum is now, an alternative method of acquisition of that trait, as well as completion of Volume II for the sake of completion, might well be considered. But by then, the dev team will have had further time to observe and consider Inspired Greatness, and potentially come up with some other method entirely for Volume II.

Of couse, that's also a lot of ifs, and all about the future. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[Grampsaz]

We plan to leave this solution for the Epic story only, possible only for the Volume I pieces of the epic story.

I would be concerned if this never went past Volume 1. I think if there was any argument to be made for IG to see Volume II it can easily be made.

Volume I didn't gate me from anything, where as Volume II has to be completed if you wish to acquire your legendary.

2.4.7-2.5.5-2.6.8 should get this IMO.

If your (not you but Turbine) going to gate a legendary trait behind group content deep into a epic line, there should be a solution to those that cant get a group, or want to complete them at their own pace, not the pace of GLFF

[lf2536]

I would be concerned if this never went past Volume 1. I think if there was any argument to be made for IG to see Volume II it can easily be made.

Volume I didn't gate me from anything, where as Volume II has to be completed if you wish to acquire your legendary.

2.4.7-2.5.5-2.6.8 should get this IMO.

If your (not you but Turbine) going to gate a legendary trait behind group content deep into a epic line, there should be a solution to those that cant get a group, or want to complete them at their own pace, not the pace of GLFF

the thing is that because volume 2 gates a legendary (usually the best of the MoM legendaries) there will always be a people willing to do volume 2 as far as book 6 at least because I can't think of a single person who'd be willing to give it up.

[Fredelas]

the thing is that because volume 2 gates a legendary (usually the best of the MoM legendaries) there will always be a people willing to do volume 2 as far as book 6 at least because I can't think of a single person who'd be willing to give it up.

I know of players who have leveled to 65 post-Mirkwood without having been able to finish that quest line yet. They may not be willing to give it up, but they may also not be able to conveniently find the right group of people who need it, too.

[robnkarla]

My guess would be that Skirmishes might be better for many portions of Volume 2 than Inspired Greatness on some Chapters. It would be fantastic if you could choose to do the instances as is or run a skirmish version. This might be a reason why we haven't seen a Moria Skirmish yet.

Also - A legendary trait alone does not guarantee that you'll find people to run it. How many people didn't have SoA traits from their class quests?

[Grampsaz]

the thing is that because volume 2 gates a legendary (usually the best of the MoM legendaries) there will always be a people willing to do volume 2 as far as book 6 at least because I can't think of a single person who'd be willing to give it up.

Thats an easy argument to make, but in practice, its not as easy as GLFF: Need 5 more for 2.5.5 need to do all three battles.

[lf2536]

Thats an easy argument to make, but in practice, its not as easy as GLFF: Need 5 more for 2.5.5 need to do all three battles.

if you truely wanted to do an instance you would spam GLFF until you got a group, last week I spammed Unite (Vilya's GLFF/GOOC) with LFFs for a group for Tomb of Elendil, an instance with no real rewards, unlike volume 2, and I eventually got a group together, so getting a group is as easy as GLFF need x people for y instance.

also, what's your kinship for if not to get help with stuff that you need to do?

[Grampsaz]

Just because you have the time to sit and rot in GLFF/Unite/Whatever for any length of time doesn't mean everyone else does, or should.

The great thing Orion has done is enabled us to do content at our own pace. You are assuming that because you were able to find a group for an instance that everyone is having a easy time like you, which obviously isnt the case or you wouldn't see thread after thread about the failure of LFF tools, instance tools, hard to find groups ect ect

They have the data, they know. I dont need to convince you or anyone that the need to extend this creative tech.

Volume II isn't new anymore, there aren't groups forming for volume II instances all day and night like there was 6-12 months ago.


Dont forget, your playing a solo casual players game. Not everyone is in a active kinship where you can go bang out volume two instances at the drop of a hat. Some kinships have to sced. these types of runs days-weeks in advance.