LOTRO Names, Pronunciation Guide

[findorin-gilrain]

Thin has an extended sound. Listen to Elrond pronounce "Our list of allies grows thin" in the FOTR movie. These has accent on latter part of the word with no extended pronunciation of the Th (dh).

I've never heard a difference in math and path in all my travels.. how would you differentiate the two?

Hehe in England! In most of England math is as you might say it but path is usually pronounced more like "parth". Of course we never say "math" as an abbreviation for "mathematics" either but "maths". In some north of England accents - Geordies for example - they would say path like math. EDIT: "bath" is pronounced "barth" too - and that includes the name of the city too.
The point is, when you read a pronuciation guide that JRRT wrote you have to read it with his west/central slightly rural English accent!

[Schirf]

Edhelion: edh-el-ee-on (S; 'edhel + iaun'; 'elf sanctuary')

Are we sure this isn't "eth-el-ion"?

Yes, the dh is pronounced like the th in these.

You're both proposing a vc-vc-vc split as opposed to a v-cv-cvc split. Sindarin typically uses cv(c)-cv(c)-cv(c) structure, but this poses a problem for words that start with a vowel and with some dipthongs.

e = the e in get
i = the ee sound of seen / the i of machine
o = the o in for / so, often rendered oh.

If io is a dipthong then io = the yo in yoyo... but if it's not then it's ee-oh

Just how different is e.the.lyon from eth.el.yon? And is io intended as a dipthong here? Is e.the.lee.on more appropriate? Hard to say. I'd love for someone to cite sources on this one. Since the root of the suffix is iaun I'd go with -ee-on as the ending.

Result: e-'the-lee-on, which bleeds into eh-THEL-ee-on in usage, which you can then render as edh-el-ee-on or eth-el-ion without anyone really catching ANY difference when used in conversation.

[Aegya]

There is no 'io' diphthong in Sindarin, and see my note above concerning 'i'.

[findorin-gilrain]

...
Yes, the dh is pronounced like the th in these.
...
Just how different is e.the.lyon from eth.el.yon? And is io intended as a dipthong here? Is e.the.lee.on more appropriate? Hard to say. I'd love for someone to cite sources on this one.

I suspect the OP meant the "th" sound anyway judging from the rest of the work. It's easy to slip up on that if you read it in your head the same. And is this not the 10% scholar question? Compared to the pronunciation I have heard of "ed-hel-lion" then any of your versions is 90% correct.

[Schirf]

I suspect the OP meant the "th" sound anyway judging from the rest of the work. It's easy to slip up on that if you read it in your head the same. And is this not the 10% scholar question? Compared to the pronunciation I have heard of "ed-hel-lion" then any of your versions is 90% correct.

Agreed... 90%... err.. 100%! ANYTHING close to eh-THEL-ee-on is correct, but ed-HELL-eye-uhn is just plain wrong.

[Schirf]

There is no 'io' diphthong in Sindarin, and see my note above concerning 'i'.

While io is not listed as diphthong in the text, ee-oh is naturally pronounced as an io diphthong if the two vowels are in the same syllable i.e. it becomes indistinguishable from the diphthong in use. This isn't a Sindarin issue; it's the sound combinations natural blend. ee-oh > yo. Does this strictly mean that all occurrences of io must then be split into two syllables to prevent the diphthong from naturally occurring?

[Istari36]

Wonderful, Laer!

Now we can just link this thread instead of the constant Forochel/Eregion/Celondim debates.

[Thalifea]

Sticky Please?!?!?!

[Laire]

There are many syllabic breaks in the above list that are in question, and a few vowel sounds that may be confusing. Use of oo for u is sometimes appropriate, but not always. Ch doesn't have a k sound, it's like the ch in Bach. Rendering it Kh would make it a little clearer. R is thrilled, Rh is not.... There are a lot of problems in the above list, but it's a great start and still, even with errors, is a great help.

Which is why I am asking for any assistance in perfecting this- I shall see to correcting this. Thank you for any corrections in advance.

[Laire]

Are we sure this isn't "eth-el-ion"?

I saw no word for "eth", and because it makes sense in context, I would be very surprised if 'edhel' was not part of the word.

[Laire]

The other two notes are from Appendix E.

Something I must have skimmed over- I will correct all the errors concerning this information once I have a moment to spare. Thank you!

happy to help!

I'm just glad I was acutally pronouncing most of the Finnish stuff properly.

though, Forochel is Fo-ro-chel with a loch like ch, not a K as you wrote it.

And do'h! I got that fixed.

[Schirf]

I saw no word for "eth", and because it makes sense in context, I would be very surprised if 'edhel' was not part of the word.

They're using the dash '-' to indicate syllable breaks, not words, and the th for how to say the word, since many readers can't figure out the dh. You're correct, it should remain dh, but this is also a great place to introduce IPA.

Note: When Sindarin words are combined the original syllabic breaks are not maintained. Dúnadan comes from dûn+adan , but the syllables become Dú-na-dan once combined.

[JpC]

About places of Moria, it always seemed to me that the names were written with arabic alphabet in mind. I currently study arabic, being in early phases Im not really familiar with meaning and translation of words yet, but all the names are written within the arabic alphabet and structure as well.

Anazarmekhem: انزارماخم
Khazad-dum: خازدؤم
Manar-bul: مانربؤل
skumfil: مسكمفل

these are just examples and I can go on and on with all the places of moria. Im pretty positive its not the Arabic language, however Im also pretty positive that these names were structured of the arabic alphabet.

[Aegya]

Khuzdul, the language of the Dwarves, is most closely reminicent of Hebrew, so that is likely the similarity you are seeing. Except Skumfil, which is Sindarin, I believe.

[findorin-gilrain]

About places of Moria, it always seemed to me that the names were written with arabic alphabet in mind. I currently study arabic, being in early phases Im not really familiar with meaning and translation of words yet, but all the names are written within the arabic alphabet and structure as well.

Anazarmekhem: انزارماخم
Khazad-dum: خازدؤم
Manar-bul: مانربؤل
skumfil: مسكمفل

these are just examples and I can go on and on with all the places of moria. Im pretty positive its not the Arabic language, however Im also pretty positive that these names were structured of the arabic alphabet.

You are not too far wrong as Khuzdûl is based upon a Semitic language root, as is Arabic. Think instead that they share a distant common ancestor?

[JpC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triliteral

Fantastic!

[lafeeverte]

While io is not listed as diphthong in the text, ee-oh is naturally pronounced as an io diphthong if the two vowels are in the same syllable i.e. it becomes indistinguishable from the diphthong in use. This isn't a Sindarin issue; it's the sound combinations natural blend. ee-oh > yo. Does this strictly mean that all occurrences of io must then be split into two syllables to prevent the diphthong from naturally occurring?

Yes. In Sindarin, no syllable may contain more than one vowel or diphthong. The only diphthongs (in 3rd Age Sindarin) are ae, ai, au, ei, oe, ui. Other vowel combinations always have a syllable break between them. Therefore, ɛ.'ðɛl.i.ɔn

To the OP, congrats and good job on starting this commendable undertaking! That said, this type of project would benefit greatly from familiarizing yourself with IPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...netic_Alphabet). It is the only way to clearly express pronunciation in writing.

Also worthwhile would be familiarizing yourself with the rules for syllable division and determining stress in Sindarin. Correct stress is integral to correct pronunciation.

The rules for syllable division in a nutshell (as summarized by Salo) are:

- a syllable must have one vowel or diphthong
- a vowel can be preceded by one or two consonants
- elements of a diphthong are never split between syllables
- a syllable "prefers" to be begin with a consonant or permissable consonant cluster if possible
- when no consonant follows a vowel and the two vowels do not form a diphtong, the syllable break falls between the vowels
- when a single consonant follows a vowel, the syllable break almost always comes before the following consonant, except where it is final
- when there are two consecutive consonants in the middle of a word, the syllable break always falls between them
- when there are three consecutive consonants in the middle of a word (there cannot be four), the break can fall either between the first and second consonant or between the second and third

The rules for stress in a nutshell are:

- a syllable is "light" if its vowel is short and it is not followed by a consonant in the same syllable
- all other syllables are "heavy"; they contain a long vowel, a diphthong, or a short vowel followed by a consonant in the same syllable
- the stress goes to the antepenult (third from last) syllable unless the penult (second last syllable) is heavy; in that case stress is on the penult
- in one- and two-syllable words, the stress is always on the first syllable

EDIT: Lordy, after all that I put one of the syllable breaks in Edhelion in the wrong place. Apologies. It is now correct above.

[findorin-gilrain]

... Therefore, ɛð.'ɛl.i.ɔn ...That said, this type of project would benefit greatly from familiarizing yourself with IPA ...It is the only way to clearly express pronunciation in writing.

Trouble is, that IPA version you have written is gobbledygook for most people. 90% layman, 10% scholar - again.

As a layman's guide, not a scholar's guide, something less accurate but far more readable and understandable is surely preferred.

[lafeeverte]

Trouble is, that IPA version you have written is gobbledygook for most people.

Fair enough. I hope I didn't come across as dismissive to the OP. That was most certainly not my intention.

[lf2536]

Khuzdul, the language of the Dwarves, is most closely reminicent of Hebrew, so that is likely the similarity you are seeing. Except Skumfil, which is Sindarin, I believe.

as an Israeli I can assure you, nothing about the language of the Dwarves sounds anything like Hebrew, not modern Hebrew anyway. though I will agree that it sounds semitic in origin.

[Aegya]

I didn't say Khuzdul sounds anything like Hebrew.

[Laire]

Trouble is, that IPA version you have written is gobbledygook for most people. 90% layman, 10% scholar - again.

As a layman's guide, not a scholar's guide, something less accurate but far more readable and understandable is surely preferred.

Exactly. I like to lightly study languages as a hobby- nothing too serious- and while I understood part of the IPA, I'm looking to make a guide easy for *everyone* to read, people that study languages even less than I do (which is really not that much).


@lafeeverte: I do, however, want the guide to be as accurate as possible, so thank you for the tips! I have met Salo in the past- a total language genius. I've always liked his analysis of Sindarin, too.

as an Israeli I can assure you, nothing about the language of the Dwarves sounds anything like Hebrew, not modern Hebrew anyway. though I will agree that it sounds semitic in origin.

According to Wikipedia (yea, I know the source is 'meh', but I'm in a hurry) Dwarvish is influenced by Hebrew in phonology and morphology. Perhaps the sounds- phonology, if I understand the term correctly- themselves are a lesser influence than the morphology (which has to do with how affixes work, how words change with tense, or plurals... again, if I'm understanding the definition correctly). With Khuzdul, from the little I read, it seems there is a lot of change in the vowels.


I won't be able to really update this list at all for the next few days, and may not be able to reply much since I'm at the Comic Con, but I'll be sure to get back to it once the con is over.

[lf2536]

I didn't say Khuzdul sounds anything like Hebrew.

my bad, I interperted what you said as sounding like Hebrew, not construced linguisticly like it.

[Laire]

The list has been updated for some pronunciation corrections, corrections in syllable splits, and the addition of stress in Sindarin.

The rules for syllable division in a nutshell (as summarized by Salo) are:

- a syllable must have one vowel or diphthong
- a vowel can be preceded by one or two consonants
- elements of a diphthong are never split between syllables
- a syllable "prefers" to be begin with a consonant or permissable consonant cluster if possible
- when no consonant follows a vowel and the two vowels do not form a diphtong, the syllable break falls between the vowels
- when a single consonant follows a vowel, the syllable break almost always comes before the following consonant, except where it is final
- when there are two consecutive consonants in the middle of a word, the syllable break always falls between them
- when there are three consecutive consonants in the middle of a word (there cannot be four), the break can fall either between the first and second consonant or between the second and third

The rules for stress in a nutshell are:

- a syllable is "light" if its vowel is short and it is not followed by a consonant in the same syllable
- all other syllables are "heavy"; they contain a long vowel, a diphthong, or a short vowel followed by a consonant in the same syllable
- the stress goes to the antepenult (third from last) syllable unless the penult (second last syllable) is heavy; in that case stress is on the penult
- in one- and two-syllable words, the stress is always on the first syllable

I've spoken with Salo in the past and he definitely seems to know his stuff, though I unfortunately do not have his book. I assume that the consonant breaks do not apply to consonant groups such as 'th', yes?

I've used these guidelines to correct several breaks, as well as to add stress, and hopefully I did it mostly correctly.

[Berephon]

Except Skumfil, which is Sindarin, I believe.

Black Speech.