Dev Diary Feedback: Update 2 Burglar Dev Diary

[0rdinary0wl]

Just finished reading over the Hunter update and it shows way more thought put into it than the Burglar update. Please put the Burglar update on hold and go back to the drawing board.

[Delaney]

Hunter Dev Diary out, once again just like the Minstrel Diary, the content comparisons are night and day in how much detail of the class was reviewed.

Once again I ask for any discussion with the Devs on why so little was actually reviewed with the Burglar. I am stunned it hasn't happened yet given the almost complete disappointment in the review as it is.

Once again I ask the Devs to cancel the current review of the Burglars and go back over it with the detail the Minstrel and Hunter classes were reviewed. I don't care if this means we won't get an update for awhile. I would much rather wait for a thorough and complete review of the class with a clear direction than go with what we got.

Just finished reading over the Hunter update and it shows way more thought put into it than the Burglar update. Please put the Burglar update on hold and go back to the drawing board.

I'll second both of these posts.

Is it really asking too much for the burglar's skills and trait lines to receive the same type of careful, comprehensive review as both the minstrels and hunters were granted?

I should add that continuing thunderous silence on this really isn't helping. I certainly can't speak for all burglars, but I'm definitely feeling marginalized enough as a player without having to heap being completely ignored on top of it.

[ANewMachine]

I should add that continuing thunderous silence on this really isn't helping. I certainly can't speak for all burglars, but I'm definitely feeling marginalized enough as a player without having to heap being completely ignored on top of it.

Gotta say I agree. A response of any sort, even "Here's why your concerns aren't valid, or why we're not acting on them even if they are" would be better than the echo chamber we're left with in the absence of any response.

[Naesriel]

hmm, just read the Hunter update - look, a plan for the class, and fixes for its gaps. and where things aren't changed, there's discussion about it (the damage penalty on the yellow line). just goes to reinforce how less-than-stellar the Burg update is.

lucky my Hunter is 53 now, because my Burg is not needed outside of gimmick runs. the resounding Dev silence post-release of the Burg Dev Diary just emphasises the second-rate nature of the update.

[Evendale]

The Hunter update certainly isn't perfect, but they had a lot of changes - some of them quite dramatic (eg: Cool Burn). Similarly to the Minstrel changes, ZC went through each of the trait lines and addressed the key concerns regarding them giving several paragraphs of reasoning to explain his changes.

Most people seem pretty happy with the changes, but even those who don't can at least see where ZC was coming from when he made the changes.

What did we get again?
- Each trait line/role was not looked at in turn
- Only a few real concerns were addressed (and 2/3 were bug fixes)
- "Instead what we decided on is" ... a change that is the opposite of what everyone knows needs to be fixed (the MM line)
- Only seven bullet points cleverly disguised as an actual update by adding lots of white space and splitting over two pages.

The more I think about it the more ripped off I feel.

[Amaldur]

I'll second both of these posts.

Is it really asking too much for the burglar's skills and trait lines to receive the same type of careful, comprehensive review as both the minstrels and hunters were granted?

I should add that continuing thunderous silence on this really isn't helping. I certainly can't speak for all burglars, but I'm definitely feeling marginalized enough as a player without having to heap being completely ignored on top of it.

Add my voice to those that are politely requesting that this update be postponed in order to create a more thorough and thoughtful revision at some point in the future. Really impressive work on the minstrels and hunters, by the way.

[delphinius81]

After reading the hunter update, I feel two things.

First, I feel as though the burglar update is being rushed out the door. Please release these updates and additional changes in update 3 to address the MM line and other issues. The current updates feel like a slap in the face given the changes seen by every other class so far (even the RK, who was nerfed - at least things were changed around to try something different).

Second, I feel as though my hunter is now miles better at CC than my burglar. Hunters have always had more CC options, but the lack of updates to the burg class this time around really twists that knife. Hunters will now have the ability to perma-mez a target, have 2 fears (BA and Animal fear), an AoE root (Rain of Thorns), a single-target trap, several trap consumables (that can either distract or AoE root), a short stun on a melee skill. And, even in the huntsman line, can very likely still outdps a Quiet Knife burg on a single target.

What exactly IS the burglar supposed to be then? It needs to stop being this skeleton in the closet no one wants to talk about.

So please, in your next dev meeting, spend the hour figuring out what you want the Burglar class to be. And then explain to us why you feel that way. We are adults here, so stop treating us like children that are misbehaving towards their parents. "Because" is not a valid answer.

[Auditor]

The Burglar update gives me hope that the devs care about the class and our feedback, which is why I'll offer my opinion on the diary. The first good news is that they listened to the community and are addressing our concerns! I've hoped against all hope that they would scale FMs and fix the damage type of bleeds to anything but common. They have listened and are addressing those concerns, so a big THANK YOU is in order from me!! Thank you! Thank you!

My concern is that I just don't follow the reasoning for the Mischief stance and the two new stances. For me as I see it, it's a design frustration. Let me explain. Every other class I'm aware of can change stances in the middle of a fight, yet we are singled out as special and I can't understand why?? The 3, 6, 12, man instance and raids that come to mind all have different stages in the various boss fights to encourage the work of a fellowship. Different phases require you to learn the mechanics and adapt to them. Every other class I'm comfortable with can change their play in order to address the fight ... Captain's switch banners, Mini's drop War Speech, RK's attune to DPS/Heal, etc. We burglar's can't and now we have two more stances we can't switch in combat? I just don't see them being more powerful than other class stances that the need is there to impose that restriction.

I think I understand the reasoning of what they are trying to do with Mischief and these new stances. The idea is to reduce the effectiveness of one aspect in order to benefit another which can also be seen in other classes, the two that come to my mind are the Lore Master and Hunter. I just would have liked to see that implemented in the manner of the LM or the Hunter. I would rather the Mischief, Quiet Knife, and Gambler stances be converted to set bonuses on our trait lines in harmony with the idea behind the LM trait lines (Less CC means more DPS). I would have even approved more of three buffs instead of two new stances like the Hunters are getting with Fleet. Let the individual buffs increase our effectiveness in their respective areas for a duration and keep them exclusive of each other to keep from being over powered. Either of these two implementation in my mind would be preferred over stances that can't be changed in combat.

I don't like choosing a specialty before a fight that can't be changed. I choose a burglar as my main because to me they were the best at filling a lot of roles in a group and really shined at being adaptive mid fight. I like the dynamics of changing fights that force a fellowship/raid to work together, communicate, and adapt their play to overcome the forces of evil. The design of these Burglar stances don't allow me to adapt when every other class with a stance that I am aware of CAN. I'd love some explanation for why we are so special because I just don't see it.

[slack_n_hash]

I've hoped against all hope that they would scale FMs and fix the damage type of bleeds to anything but common. They have listened and are addressing those concerns, so a big THANK YOU is in order from me!! Thank you! Thank you!

No offense intended to the above poster, but I'd rather not have the FM and bleed changes, or at least not had them included as part of the Burglar update because they are NOT CLASS CHANGES.

Simply put, they are trivial and disadvantage Burgs in relation to other classes!

If they were not included, it would have shown how shallow the Burg changes were.

[PsychobabbleJJ]

can someone explain to me the mechanics of how an in-combat toggle-able mischeif stance would actually work? So I use riddle in mischief stance and the cooldown is now 30s instead of 1min. If I then switch out of mischief then what's the CD on mischief? presumably it's still ticking down from the 30s. So you can get a primary benefit of the mischief stance without actually staying in the stance. Ditto the tricks cost. Switch to mischief, use your tricks, switch back. And if you don't think people would do this then you don't know how people already use LIs for similar purposes.

The point of a stance is that being in it is meant to close off other options. But mischief can't work like that because it's benefits aren't ongoing (unlike, say, fervour which has constant pip generation and ICPR which you lose as soon as you exit the stance).

People calling on mischief to be a toggle-able stance in combat aren't really thinking though what that means I don't think.

[rwsteve1044]

Its really becomming clear that turbine is thinking there are too many classes in game. Just look at how the Burg, Champ, and Captain are being treated in this update and previous.

Hunters are getting hooked up to the level where why have a champ or a burg in a group? Just get another of the million and a half surplus hunters on each server.

Where are the advantages to playing an "advanced" class over playing an "easy" class.
*Not my opinon Turbine's own rating of the classes*

Seriously the dev team is phoning in the changes to the burgs, and only giving lip service to them.

The biggest gripe I have is putting the bleed/FM changes in the burg update, this helps hunters, wardens, champs..... oh ya everyone, its a game mechanic change. I don't see a similar game mechanic change being put as a class improvement for the hunter or the mini, burgs get two. Its just a base insult that there is so little substance of a class that needs help in finding three man/six man group identity.

They had to put this in under the burg changes, because this update is so small, they needed filler to justify calling it a dev diary.

[ANewMachine]

can someone explain to me the mechanics of how an in-combat toggle-able mischeif stance would actually work? So I use riddle in mischief stance and the cooldown is now 30s instead of 1min. If I then switch out of mischief then what's the CD on mischief? presumably it's still ticking down from the 30s. So you can get a primary benefit of the mischief stance without actually staying in the stance. Ditto the tricks cost. Switch to mischief, use your tricks, switch back. And if you don't think people would do this then you don't know how people already use LIs for similar purposes.

The point of a stance is that being in it is meant to close off other options. But mischief can't work like that because it's benefits aren't ongoing (unlike, say, fervour which has constant pip generation and ICPR which you lose as soon as you exit the stance).

People calling on mischief to be a toggle-able stance in combat aren't really thinking though what that means I don't think.

Except, as has been argued pretty thoroughly through this thread and others, the benefits Mischief gives are pretty weak, and the benefits being out of Mischief gives are also pretty weak. You're right about one thing, though - there's no effective difference between having Mischief be in-combat toggled and simply having it not lock out any Stealth skills.

[delphinius81]

can someone explain to me the mechanics of how an in-combat toggle-able mischeif stance would actually work? So I use riddle in mischief stance and the cooldown is now 30s instead of 1min. If I then switch out of mischief then what's the CD on mischief? presumably it's still ticking down from the 30s. So you can get a primary benefit of the mischief stance without actually staying in the stance. Ditto the tricks cost. Switch to mischief, use your tricks, switch back. And if you don't think people would do this then you don't know how people already use LIs for similar purposes.

The point of a stance is that being in it is meant to close off other options. But mischief can't work like that because it's benefits aren't ongoing (unlike, say, fervour which has constant pip generation and ICPR which you lose as soon as you exit the stance).

People calling on mischief to be a toggle-able stance in combat aren't really thinking though what that means I don't think.

I think the main issue is with Riddle. The only reason people use Mischief is to access the 30s Riddle instead of the normal 60s one. The lrm has a base cooldown of 15s for a 30s mez, allowing him to lock down 2 targets (with fastloader traited at least). A hunter has enough CC tools in the huntsman line that it can switch between different types of CC to keep multiple mobs locked down. The burglar has one mez, with a normal 60s cool down.

Very simply, change the Riddle trait so that it makes the cool down 30s + 5s stun at the beginning. Maybe this trait only has this option if you go 3 or 4 deep into MM. Or, we change the QaS legendary to something that changes Riddle to the above, and confound to be an instant AoE mez - thereby getting rid of the stupid legacies. Slotting the Confound trait would reduce resistance and cool down.

This frees up Mischief to be a true stance. In Mischief, the power cost of tricks is reduced and their duration is increased.

Because a burg has to go so deep into one particular line to get any real benefits, the issue of stance hopping is limited. And honestly, so what if a burg can get QK DPS while keeping a target locked down permanently? The burg will still be less effective at DPS than Champs and Hunters, and less effective at CC than Loremasters and Hunters. Instead, the Burg makes up for it in his ability to adapt to a variety of situations.

[Euthanazia]

Dear Dev:

I get what you are saying here:

Issue #7
We need more in-combat Power Regen!
On this one you will just have to get used to disappointment. Almost every class in the game wants more power regen. The combat changes in Siege of Mirkwood allow most classes to spend way more power than they can regenerate. We rather like the choice players must make about burning up your power quickly or playing at a more reasonable rate for a long battle. There are no changes to power costs or regen in this update.


However, could you please walk down the hall and slap the devs who keep making boss fights that are "face-rolling DPS races?" Power regen through long fights is never an issue, what with food, FMs, LMs, etc., what is an issue is having to blow through all of our power to try and win the aforementioned race, which does not lend itself to "playing at a more reasonable rate for a long battle."



Thanks, oh, and slap them again for even asking why you slapped them. They freaking know.

[Silverlocket]

Long-time (since Open Beta) player and Burglar here, and though I'm a Turbine fan and rarely pay too much attention to all the constant whining that goes on the Forums (and have pretty much quit visiting the Forums at all because of it), I have to say the negative tone of this thread is amply deserved, except for the personal attacks on Graal.

My burg was my main for the first couple of years and remained so after various nerfs and changes. With my being a PVE-only and mostly-solo player, he was still fun; he was my first character to 65. After I started leveling my Warden, though, I went back to him less and less, although I still enjoy playing him. I was hoping that this update would give me a reason to really return to the unique and challenging gameplay on my burglar, but instead it was full of meh.

Moving KO to its own timer is good; I may finally use it more than once a week now. Stealth speed increase is nice. A couple of the other changes are OK, too, but for the most part this update is a disappointment. For me, the class isn't too broken, but there's not much to this update to sink your teeth into.

The burglar is a complex class, which is part of its fun. That is attested to in part by the variety of things that commenters have referred to as the root of problems with the class. It is also, as mentioned previously, a "jack of all trades and master of none" class, and I love that versatility, even if the description is not quite accurate. But it seems that some of the panache has been sucked out of the class as time has gone by.

[0rdinary0wl]

can someone explain to me the mechanics of how an in-combat toggle-able mischeif stance would actually work? So I use riddle in mischief stance and the cooldown is now 30s instead of 1min. If I then switch out of mischief then what's the CD on mischief? presumably it's still ticking down from the 30s. So you can get a primary benefit of the mischief stance without actually staying in the stance. Ditto the tricks cost. Switch to mischief, use your tricks, switch back. And if you don't think people would do this then you don't know how people already use LIs for similar purposes.

The point of a stance is that being in it is meant to close off other options. But mischief can't work like that because it's benefits aren't ongoing (unlike, say, fervour which has constant pip generation and ICPR which you lose as soon as you exit the stance).

People calling on mischief to be a toggle-able stance in combat aren't really thinking though what that means I don't think.

Hey Psycho /wave

The real issues with toggling mischief is you can't enter a fight with stealth when you're grouping, have to use HIPS to start a FM, and when you get an in-combat rez. That's the heart of the issue. The starting in stealth thing doesn't really bother me all that much, it's just a small inconvenience. But the other two reasons really hurt the burglar because when they happen we can't go back to being in mischief and that can make Burglars less effective than they were. It's not about a stance dance to get an OP benefit. Although with the stances they're giving us (and I have no idea why they are) might add some kind of problem along those lines, but I don't really know how they're going to work. Of all the classes that can CC, Burglar is on the bottom of the food chain now and the problems with mischief and its traits are the problem.

[SRT8]

Looking at the Bullroarer patch notes. I no longer see the stealth speed increase (was to be available deep in the QK or Gambler traits) in the Burglar update. Am I overlooking it?

They did move the FM and Bleed damage type changes from our class changes.

Makes for a very short list. Not sure if that is good or bad.

[Thaladar_LOTRO]

Hunter Dev Diary out, once again just like the Minstrel Diary, the content comparisons are night and day in how much detail of the class was reviewed.

Once again I ask for any discussion with the Devs on why so little was actually reviewed with the Burglar. I am stunned it hasn't happened yet given the almost complete disappointment in the review as it is.

Once again I ask the Devs to cancel the current review of the Burglars and go back over it with the detail the Minstrel and Hunter classes were reviewed. I don't care if this means we won't get an update for awhile. I would much rather wait for a thorough and complete review of the class with a clear direction than go with what we got.

Just finished reading over the Hunter update and it shows way more thought put into it than the Burglar update. Please put the Burglar update on hold and go back to the drawing board.

Is it really asking too much for the burglar's skills and trait lines to receive the same type of careful, comprehensive review as both the minstrels and hunters were granted?

I should add that continuing thunderous silence on this really isn't helping. I certainly can't speak for all burglars, but I'm definitely feeling marginalized enough as a player without having to heap being completely ignored on top of it.

These echo my thoughts exactly. I posted as much on the Hunter update thread. But add my name to the list to take another, closer look at the Burglar and provide a thoughtful, meaningful update instead of the currently planned update! I'd rather get nothing now and a more comprehensive overhaul in Update 3 than live with the planned updates as-is.

Also, some feedback or response from the Dev team on the discrepancy between the different class updates would be appreciated. Ingoring the problem and feedback posted here doesn't make it go away.

[Deyjarl]

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...he-Dead-2-9-11

Class Updates
The Minstrel, Burglar, and Hunter classes have received a number of changes. You can read the full details of each in their appropriate developer diaries.

What was the point of this thread? Its clear these changes are going through with or without our comments.

[Deyjarl]

Issue #7
We need more in-combat Power Regen!
On this one you will just have to get used to disappointment. Almost every class in the game wants more power regen. The combat changes in Siege of Mirkwood allow most classes to spend way more power than they can regenerate. We rather like the choice players must make about burning up your power quickly or playing at a more reasonable rate for a long battle. There are no changes to power costs or regen in this update.

I still am baffled by this. I've been poking around several characters after this just to compare power levels before and after just yellow con mob after mob in dense area, and continually using common attack chains, and not using potions.

The Warden was the best I found, with Champ, Minstrel a bit further down.

Even using MD the burglar was at the bottom in the numbers. You can see the differences with power consumption just playing around the classes. The classes aren't even close to the same with regards to "the choice players must make about burning up your power quickly or playing at a more reasonable rate for a long battle." With some classes having to make that choice MUCH, MUCH sooner, with less of an outcome.

[Sapience]

Now that the changes are live on Bullroarer, we'd love to hear feedback based on your experiences. Please be sure to leave that feedback in the Bullroarer forums.

[Delaney]

Now that the changes are live on Bullroarer, we'd love to hear feedback based on your experiences. Please be sure to leave that feedback in the Bullroarer forums.

Because it will receive so much more attention there than it did in the "Ask the Community" threads, or even this one for that matter?

Speaking with a great deal of frustration, right now the only reason I can see to not simply say, "why bother" is that it'd give Turbine way too easy of an out... as if one were needed.

[ShameOnYou]

As someone who has played a burglar as their main since day 1 (March 30, 2007 - ya I'm using a F2P account just for the forums) I am severely disappointed. The changes to FM's and bleed damage are nice, but those aren't class specific. The rest in nothing to write home about.

Where has the vision for the burglar class gone? Honestly? This developer diary makes me wonder if even the developers know the answer to that question. They might as well have said, "Burglars are already perfect the way they are and since we couldn't think of anything new we just fixed a few bugs." [I have great respect for the developers; please understand this is not an attempt to put words in anyone's mouth]

Let me tell you how you improve on perfection. Read the diaries for the hunter and minstrel! It goes like this: start with a solid understanding of the class, formulate a vision for how to improve it, and use your creativity and skill to try and achieve those goals. That's how it's done!

Since this was supposed to be a diary about burglars, it seems reasonable to ask, what was their vision of the current state of the class (traits, skills, role, etc)? Based on this vision, what goals did the design team have to improve the burglar? ....... silence. Sadly, they seem loathe to tell us. Indeed, the paltry information provided provokes more questions than it answers.

Let's get this out in the open once and for all: do you think it is possible to improve the burglar or not -- I don't mean in some generic, intangible, feel-good sense of the word; I mean improve as in real, practical changes that could be made with your existing technology (again see hunter and minstrel diaries)?

I have to be honest and say that this and the previous makeover make me think that the answer to that question is no. I could be wrong, and I would love to be proven wrong. Nonetheless, if the answer is no, then I would have to ask a vital question:

If it can be done for the hunter and minstrel, then why not for the burglar? What is the difference?

The hunter and minstrel diaries show what can happen when the full force of creativity is unleashed on a problem. I don't believe the burglar is perfect and I don't believe that the well of creativity that spawned the burglar has run dry. There's plenty more in there. All we need is someone to take the wrapping off, open up the lid, and reach down into the depths of that well and take a drink from those waters of inspiration.

It wouldn't surprise me if anyone knew where the well was. It may even be buried underneath of a couple years of dust and cobwebs, but I know it's there. It's been entirely too long for burglars. Please find it again.

[kortcomponent]

Some interesting changes - my burg is not my main so I don't have a strong opinion on most of them except to mirror what someone else said - LFFs are rarely if ever in need of a burg. Needs more something or other added to make them more necessary/desirable to fellowships.

Here's my slightly unrelated burg travel idea though: Hunters have their ports, Wardens have their solo ports, Captains have their musters. In keeping with the spirit of the burglar and to make the pickpocket skill even remotely useful in game, I propose that after having taken a horse port somewhere, burglars be allowed to try to pick the pockets of the stable master and get their fare back. This would be ace.

[rogerwroten]

Did I miss something? At what level do you get these stances? I could not find it any where.