Dev Diary Feedback: Update 2: Epic-Volume 2 - “Solofication” Pass Developer Diary

[Clover]

Today Bob “Maurath” Hess discusses the 'solofication' pass of the Volume 2 epic. Read more in his very first developer diary and post your comments here!

[Varenthor]

Looks great! Can't wait for this update to go live!!!! First thing I'm doing is getting that Cloak of Shadow and Flame and finishing up Volume 2 books 7 and 8. By the way, has it been announced when the update will go live?

~Rae

[dotfive]

Looks neat, can't wait for book 3 to be released!

[cicdle]

Even though I never duo, I want to say it was nice to see all the shout outs to solo and DUO playstyles, and also leaving in some rewards for doing the 3 mans in the original way. Sounds like a very good revision.

[ShammWoww]

Thank you! The "hours/days" of waiting mentioned in the diary was for me literally "weeks/months" due to odd play times and time constraints. I've done 2 toons this way, and it looks like my Warden will be able to breeze through this in no time.
Thanks again!

[Vysion34]

I'm seeing a lot of people repeatedly soloing Book 6 - Chapter 8: New Devilry in hopes of the cloak to drop.

[secondstar]

There will of course be those who again bemoan the removal of grouping requirements from the game, but this change fixes a real problem with Moria. Not only was it often difficult to find a group for many of the group instances but it could feel like you were burdening people who did actually help you because the rewards were not in line with the effort or the amount of time involved. A lot of Moria is well suited to small groups and duos so I think these changes fit better than the original approach. I'm looking forward to finally getting to book 6, I have six characters with access to Moria and none have gone past 2.5.5. Was just too much hassle when there was more accessible content elsewhere.

[interactii]

I gotta say there was some great work done on this. Having run the old 2.6.8 nearly 50 times on live in hope of getting the cloak, I was very familiar with the old instance, and thought the new one was a very respectable conversion. There was still one pull (the one with the 3 guys guarding the elf) that was very hard for a solo hunter, even a raid-geared level 65 one (they don't take CCs or fears, so there was near continuous induction setback, and hunter melee dps is low).

I was also of course happy to hear that the cloak remains in the loot tables (and I in fact got it on one of my test runs on BR). I see how this was probably a tough decision, but it is much appreciated.

Good work!

[Bill_the_Cat]

I feel much the same was as everyone who has already posted re: solofication, but confess I have mixed feelings about changing the levels of the challenges. Keyword is mixed; I recognize the need to trade off for soloing while maintaining the integrity/difficulty of the instance challenge, but I sort of feel about this in the same way as I feel about the Death Star explosion at the end of the 'upgraded' version of Star Wars, sure the explosion is great, but its not the original. I also wonder why a level change AND inspired greatness are needed. I don't recall, was re-levelling done for Volume 1 as well?

[Linwe-Elfmaiden]

This sounds outstanding for the most part... I am sorry to see 2.8.6 no longer available as a group though-- that has been a really fun instance... As for the evils of 2.8 -- I will FINALLY get this done on all of my assorted selves! YAY!!!

[Maurath]

I feel much the same was as everyone who has already posted re: solofication, but confess I have mixed feelings about changing the levels of the challenges. Keyword is mixed; I recognize the need to trade off for soloing while maintaining the integrity/difficulty of the instance challenge, but I sort of feel about this in the same way as I feel about the Death Star explosion at the end of the 'upgraded' version of Star Wars, sure the explosion is great, but its not the original. I also wonder why a level change AND inspired greatness are needed. I don't recall, was re-levelling done for Volume 1 as well?

The reason that we went about re-leveling many of the quests was so that players that haven't been through Moria could get a better approximation of the difficulty of the areas in which the quests reside.

One of the difficulties that we encountered when looking at many quests, was that the level of the quest was in many cases several levels below the monsters in a given area. So players that were on-level for a quest, would be fighting monsters between 3 to 5 levels above the level of the epic quest.

Inspired Greatness was employed in several instances where it felt that we could maintain the thematic elements of the fights, while allowing a wider player base to see and experience the instances.

[Laokong]

Overall, I think these changes are a step in the right direction towards fixing some of the issues related to soloing Vol.2.

Though far from being undoable, some of the quests truly needed their level adjusted to reflect the actual challenge. Better drop/spawn rates and quest tracking will also much simplify the task for people who are doing it for the first time.

Although I personally prefer group play and worry that the absence of group requirement in the Epic quest line may leave some people unprepared for other instances, I understand that people have different playstyle and time constraints. Getting a group going for 2.4.7 or 2.5.5 was always a frustrating task and I've run them countless times to help kinnies and friends getting alts through them.

However, due to the possibility of rolling on the Cloak of Shadow and Flames, getting a group for 2.6.8 was much easier in comparison. Thus, I'm not sure making it a soloable instance while preserving the loot tables as it is is such a great idea. The thought of having people solo-farm the instance for the cloak when I helped many groups just to get a shot at the cloak irks me somehow (a feeling I'm sure many players will share). Wouldn't it be possible to preserve the instance has it is right now (with the Cloak) for groups, while offering a solo/duo version (w/o the Cloak) for people who want to advance their Epic quest line? After all, group versions of instances in Vol. I were preserved, while made available to solo/duo through inspired greatness. The group instance already exists, why remove it completely from the game?

Just a thought... (which may earn me some flak from solo players)

[Elderban]

I really wish Turbine would come up with an alternative to Inspired Greatness. It makes characters way overpowered. I can walk through on-level instances without any worries of dying. It feels like a "cheat mode" to me.

I still can't see why Turbine can't scale the instances. The tech is already in the game.

[Blangadanger]

I like the changes mentioned in the Dev. Diary. I think it will allow a lot more people to get through the books at a faster pace. I got to the point of not even doing the books on my alts because it was frustrating waiting for groups to go, and it was sad, because the content in Volume 2 is outstanding (at least it is on my dwarven characters).

I have questions though. It sounds like you're changing a lot of the quests, but they sound like small changes (level suggestion). Do you have any recommendations based on testing regarding what players should do when the new update comes through? Should we cancel the current quest in progress? Or will everything automatically update with no problems to be expected?

Lastly I think the cloak in 6.8 may have seen its last days as an exclusive item. The change will make a lot of people who don't have the cloak (but wants it! yes, my precious!) very happy, but those who already have it will probably be a bit disappointed to say the least.

[Elnaith]

I have tested the skirmish version of the 21st Hall and I have done a solo run on 2.6.8 New Devilry. As for making the 3 most annoying parts 2.5.5 I think it is very well done and I liked it.

I've attempted 2.6.8 and found it really boring. The instance had a difficult character in its original design, but got dumbed down. The main reason for this is the fact that you have re-scaled the mob types and group make-ups. The part where you have to kill the shadow grims now lacks of the troll. The two Regmyl are now dumbed down versions of Elites and do hit like nothing. Flame drinker and Gloom walker are still annoying due their phases. In the previous build I also noted that they were summoning the wrong black holes and those were dealing the opposite damage type. Shadow-vortex did fire damage and fire-vortex did shadow damage. I hope this is fixed.

Gwathnor:
Well, there he is my little WoW escaped friend. The fight is boring as hell. His health is lowered down and he deals almost no damage to you.
I killed him and guess what: Cloak of Shadow and Flame dropped^^

All in all I can say that these changes will help new players a lot, but will not provide the "dangers" of Moria once had in its release.

I understand the desire to re-level those instances, but I really cannot understand why you had to change the difficulty in the instances in general. I mean even with Inspired Greatness you should be at least attempt to have to fight for the cause. Now, you can go in pull as many mobs as you want and go afk. You won't die, it only will take a while. Nothing epic about the epics.

The best thing about this revamp is that the Cloak of Shadow and Flame still drops and that you don't need to roll against five other people to get it

I have also run the new book and found out that you have scaled the instances already. So for Volume 3 players won't need to ask for a soloing option in the future.

[sirwillow]

This sounds outstanding for the most part... I am sorry to see 2.8.6 no longer available as a group though-- that has been a really fun instance... As for the evils of 2.8 -- I will FINALLY get this done on all of my assorted selves! YAY!!!

Assuming that it's like volume 1, you'll still be able to do it, and the other group instances, as full groups if you so desire. And it shouldn't be any different. But now you'll also have the additional option of running it solo or as a dual.

personally I'm looking forward to finally getting past the battle instances. Since I play at odd hours for the most part getting groups was difficult to impossible. Really looking forward to that.

I am curious though, for 2.8.3 and 2.8.4 what chest loot is in there that's being removed? Everyone is talking about the cloak, but what may be lost to solo'ers in these chapters? I may well have to make sure I do it as a duo to have a shot at what's there if it's decent.

[Anuhart]

One of the difficulties that we encountered when looking at many quests, was that the level of the quest was in many cases several levels below the monsters in a given area. So players that were on-level for a quest, would be fighting monsters between 3 to 5 levels above the level of the epic quest.

As long as that can still be taken up to 5 below, then all good. But please remember there is a need to be fighting mobs 3 to 5 above, for any real meaning to a quest. You can always do it later if it is difficult but can't go the other way. On level is becoming more and more liken to being over level for the quest.

Just Sayin.

Thanks all the same for the time in making Vol II a solo option. Much appreciated.

[Deyjarl]

Here is my problem with the 'solofication,' and its NOT that the content is being made solo, I don't mind that, but that much of it has been made trivial compared to the group version. The solo version needs to be more challenging.

I just finished Vol 1, 5, and 6, Trollshaws and Misty Mountains Epic lines on an alt going through them solo. I remember doing this at level in a group on previous characters, and back then the quests were at times challenging for a group. You had to manage you health and power.

This time solo with the inspiration buff, there wasn't even a chance that I could fail. All I had to do was repeatedly hit 1 attack over and over again and health and power weren't even a consideration. I couldn't fail them even if I tried. In the one I gathered up 8 elite mobs, and let them pound on my character, and I just kept hitting the one skill. I didn't use an AoE attack. Just a single target basic damage attack. The mobs didn't have a chance, and my health and power didn't drop below 90%, and other encounters where I didn't round up everything it didn't drop below 97%. Sadly this isn't even an exaggeration, I had time to track the percentages because that is how much the buff trivializes the content.

I think the Inspiration buff goes too far, and makes the Epic line far too easy. Its not that the buff needs to be removed, but it really needs to be toned down. There needs to be a chance for failure, even if its just a small chance. Right now there isn't one.





Side note: Some of the instances you get the inspiration buff in also make it really easy to farm those mobs for drops that are of your level. I can see this being abused especially if the same occurs with level 60-65 content. What I mean is, it would take much more effort to kill the same mobs without the inspiration buff, than it would to do so with. So if you need scholar mats off undead for example, it currently is far better to go into one of these instances with the inspiration buff on and kill them there.

[Cerridwen]

There was still one pull (the one with the 3 guys guarding the elf) that was very hard for a solo hunter, even a raid-geared level 65 one (they don't take CCs or fears, so there was near continuous induction setback, and hunter melee dps is low).

I didn't really have any problems on my non-raid-geared hunter, but that's not discounting the difficulty you encountered; just stating that different people will have a different experience.

I ran through these during the first build on Bullroarer and I loved it. The character I ran these with started at 2.4.7 since he was an old copy who hadn't done them on Live at that point. 2.5.5 as skirmishes was a lot of fun, though I can't compare to Live because I never did it there (I only have 2 characters out of 6 working on Vol II even up to that quest now). I thoroughly enjoyed 2.6.8, having never seen it before, and I ran it multiple times just because of the joy I got from fighting the Regmyl and Gwathnor; I could care less about the cloak (I got it on run #5, it's still a random drop) though I'm glad it's still in the loot table for those who do want it. 2.8.3 and 2.8.4 were quite boring to me as solo versions so I'm still going to try to get a group for my characters still needing them on Live but the option is very cool for those who want/need it. The only thing I did like was that I got to fight the bosses, my group skipped them both times we did the quests so I had never even seen Ergoth before.

I am curious though, for 2.8.3 and 2.8.4 what chest loot is in there that's being removed? Everyone is talking about the cloak, but what may be lost to solo'ers in these chapters? I may well have to make sure I do it as a duo to have a shot at what's there if it's decent.

I remember the group versions having some IXP tokens and maybe some meh weapons, basically nothing really awesome that I can think of.

[Laokong]

I am curious though, for 2.8.3 and 2.8.4 what chest loot is in there that's being removed? Everyone is talking about the cloak, but what may be lost to solo'ers in these chapters?

2.8.3 & 2.8.4 take place in the Hall of Mirrors and Water Wheels instances. Though you don't need to fight the final boss to complete the epic quest in their current version, you still get 1-2 chests for defeating bosses/solving puzzles. These chests are regular group instance chests. They contain Medallions of Lothlorien, lvl 60 ixp runes, relics & settings as well as some rather decent lvl 60 jewelry (at least much better than rewards for solo quests of the same level). Leaving them as is would give access to rewards that are usually obtained only through group play and would certainly lead to farming them to sell relics & settings on the AH...

[Zavad]

Thank you. I appreciate "counter-weighting and greasing" or complete elimination of these "gates" that seem impenetrable or just plain annoying: fellowship-gate, Radiance-gate, intense tedium-gate (LIs), meaningless inconvenience-gate (travel mandates...), etc. And I would love to see complete eradication of lag-gate! Making battle and storyline quests oversimplified should certainly be avoided as that leads to an enormous boredom-gate, but allowing basic content within the game to be accessible to all subscribers is important to me. I am looking forward to this change more than any other in this upcoming update. I could even live with Radiance as long as I didn't have to exist resigned to the fact that key Skills I needed in order to operate in necessary character modes were gated behind a defunct fellowship/reward system. Gating skills through book instancing (nothing like the SoA open-world CD/Uru concept) was a horrible course to implement in Mines of Moria, imho. However, an alternative to "solofication" can still be found in revamping the fellowship/reward system; though I recognize it is absolutely impossible to accommodate the myriad goals, ideals, desires, and preferences that exist.

[Starrywisdom]

Here is my problem with the 'solofication,' and its NOT that the content is being made solo, I don't mind that, but that much of it has been made trivial compared to the group version. The solo version needs to be more challenging.
.

Try it on one of the classes whom don't have any reliable CC and/or 'weak' classes. Things that aren't challenging to some classes, can be damn near impossible to others(if not 100% impossible).

[Cerridwen]

2.8.3 & 2.8.4 take place in the Hall of Mirrors and Water Wheels instances. Though you don't need to fight the final boss to complete the epic quest in their current version, you still get 1-2 chests for defeating bosses/solving puzzles. These chests are regular group instance chests. They contain Medallions of Lothlorien, lvl 60 ixp runes, relics & settings as well as some rather decent lvl 60 jewelry (at least much better than rewards for solo quests of the same level). Leaving them as is would give access to rewards that are usually obtained only through group play and would certainly lead to farming them to sell relics & settings on the AH...

Question, did the medallions and jewelery only come from the final bosses because I don't recall ever seeing stuff like that. Granted, I only did each of these twice and we never fought the final bosses but I do remember getting a chest with some IXP runes (and now that you mention it, relics) and, I'm pretty sure, a cruddy weapon.

Don't forget that IXP runes in loot will all be up to 65 with the update, so that can be an incentive to run these as group; as well as doing the group versions allows you to work on the associated quests/deeds.

[Laokong]

You get 1 Loth med per chest on the way to the boss and some misc. weapons. I thought Rollos (http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Item:Rollos) dropped in the 2nd chest of HoM, but I was wrong, it's in the final boss' chest.

I agree that changes to the IXP system may provide an incentive to run these rather fun (IMO) instances more often and that's a welcomed improvement. However, the question was what would someone doing the solo version be missing from the chests.

As a side question to the developers: will deeds in these instances (HoM/WW) advance in both solo and group version of these instances? Also, if I remember well, virtues were attached to these deeds before the November update but are no longer rewarded upon completion of a deed (only IXP now). Since virtues will be awarded upon completion of Enedwaith deeds after Update 2 will virtues be attached to these instance deeds again?

Another question, will the "soloification" of 2.6.8 change access to the legendary class trait bestowed upon completion of book 2.6?

[Cerridwen]

Ok, I couldn't recall if we got medallions or not so thanks for clarifying.

I'm obviously not a developer, but when I ran the solo version in the first build the deeds did advance but there's so few mobs and the solo versions weren't repeatable that you couldn't get very far at all. I also got that capstone trait just as one normally does. Of course, I reiterate that this was the first build I tested so they could have possibly changed in the last two builds.