Feedback: Producer's Letter March – 2011

[Linwe-Elfmaiden]

What I find interesting is that for the longest time we've been asked if producers, developers, and the LOTRO team in general play the game and yet here you are looking at a comment not only showing that Kate plays, but what she plays and how she chooses to play and basically ignoring it.

I did notice that this indicated she plays! And I am delighted to hear she does... my next question is, does she craft? (particularly scholar or cook!) If so, then perhaps she too would feel rather sad that her crafters cannot make these items -- they are only available from the store!

On another note: as our kin group struggles to get the hang of of some of the new instances and raids, I can only wonder if the devs play this stuff through themselves and have great laugh-fests ("They want it harder!! HAHAHAH well, try THIS one then!! ooooo wait, Let's make this boss immune to EVERYTHING and have him drop insta-death poison everywhere and then stun them all -- yeah that'll stump 'em for a bit!")...

[Majesto]

As for the comment that no one will notice the lip-syncing. Oh, I don't know about that.

I have to assume you're hinting at the conversation between Bilbo and Smaug, Sapience. Bilbo says to Smaug that he heard dragons were soft underneath. Smaug says he's heard wrong, that he's armored above and below. Bilbo says "Well, I don't know about that" and Smaug mockingly replies "You 'don't know about that'".

I'm looking forward to meeting this dragon now.

.....

And in agreement with everyone else, please try to avoid making this game the Store of the Rings. Thanks.

[Sapience]

I did notice that this indicated she plays! And I am delighted to hear she does... my next question is, does she craft? (particularly scholar or cook!) If so, then perhaps she too would feel rather sad that her crafters cannot make these items -- they are only available from the store!

On another note: as our kin group struggles to get the hang of of some of the new instances and raids, I can only wonder if the devs play this stuff through themselves and have great laugh-fests ("They want it harder!! HAHAHAH well, try THIS one then!! ooooo wait, Let's make this boss immune to EVERYTHING and have him drop insta-death poison everywhere and then stun them all -- yeah that'll stump 'em for a bit!")...

I don't know if she does or not, but I do. I have a Scholar and an Armsman along with a Jeweller of little note (still working on Master ). My Scholar supports all of my hunter's bad habits.

As for the devs, yes they do play through stuff quite often (we call these, "play dates", the community team has them, too from time to time). We also have an entire section of QA that plays through new content and gives feedback to the team in the form of scores (like a game review score) on various aspects. Then it all goes off to Palantir and devs actually watch players play the game live and do Q&A's during the actual attempts in an effort to get even more direct feedback.

[Delaney]

My overall feedback: LOTRO needs less "store" and more "story".

I couldn't agree more.

No mention of continuing class updates? I'm sure Guardians and Wardens are all anxious for their class updates...

Burglars would like one too! Well, a real one, preferably that doesn't try to include overall combat changes as major update points. But yes, I digress. I wish guardians and wardens better luck with it.

I have to agree with other posters that bludgeoning me over the head with the Store items in the first paragraph of the Producer's letter gives a clear indication of where the priorities are for the game - and they are not in the game itself.

I once again agree wholeheartedly.

I was hopeful that the content release would put the game back on a more fun keel. It never occurred to me that from now on, some content development would be tilted towards how they can include more store items. Or that everything new like the milestones slots would be considered paid extras.

I am happy there is finally some new group content. From the 3- and 6-mans I've seen so far, there are some good twists to the boss fights. The downside is that the bits in-between are mind-numbingly boring and linear. Follow funnel path, kill mobs, rinse, repeat.

My main's class was supposed to get an update, but ... well, not sure what happened there. And HIPS is broken, again, at least until the next update. Total proper working time for HIPS since the release of Moria: laughable.

I agree also, I find the first paragraph of the letter to be insulting actually. We don't need these pots to complete content supposedly and we get a "Producer's Letter" with blatant plugs for store items. I'm very disappointed by the tone of the letter. It doesn't come across as very sincere.

Nor does the endless pollyanna approach ring true. I dislike Turbine's continued refusal, in any communication, to acknowledge any form of player dissatisfaction, of whatever magnitude. For me personally, the recent sham of a class update would be one issue, and a hot new one would be the value (or complete lack thereof) of the VIP subscription as illustrated by the new content release. That last is certainly an appropriate subject for a game's producer to address.

The fact that no matter how a subject is approached, any and all dissent and dissatisfaction is ignored and swept under the rug is getting really frustrating. The "we're all happy and know you are too and gee, isn't the store the best thing since sliced bread, you're going to love it!" is getting OLD. There used to be a time when it felt like Turbine wanted to interact with the players. Now the only thing they want to interact with is the players' bank accounts, and with no inconvenient feedback, please. I don't know what the phobia is about suggesting that not everything is perfect, but that attitude scares me more than honestly discussing any bumps or problems.

Of course, for those who do agree with Turbine, those posts usually get trumpeted as proof positive of their absolute success and 100% customer satisfaction, while most if not all of the dissenting/questioning posts are ignored. (And if you don't agree with the corporate line, what's wrong with you?! ) There's a thread in the general discussion forums entitled "What I miss about VIP" that has a sterling example of this.

Sometimes I feel there is a distinct disconnect between player>Community Support>Turbine Decision Makers and feedback. The store comments at the beginning of this producer letter kind of cement that for me.

And this is more succinctly put. Also very true for me as well.

Another thing I glanced at higher in the thread... why does Isengard=December? Last I checked, it was "Fall".

I'm not the one who said December, but Moria was "Fall" too, and that was November. Considering the solstice isn't until the 22/23, December could easily be fall, too.

On another note, if anyone from Turbine is reading who may be interested in knowing more about the effect of their current marketing strategy, I'd just like to let them know that, for this particular customer, it is extremely off-putting.

It's also disheartening for me to feel that Turbine's ultimate focus is on what the game can do for the store and not the other way around. It also is starting to cheapen an epic world somewhat. I wonder if we'll see one of the Grey Company outside the entrance to the Paths of the Dead, requiring an "oathbreaker's token*" for entrance.

I hope not, but I really can't say I'm solidly optimistic about it.

(*Oathbreaker's tokens will available in the LotRO store. Pre-buy now!)

[Crell_1]

I don't know if she does or not, but I do. I have a Scholar and an Armsman along with a Jeweller of little note (still working on Master ). My Scholar supports all of my hunter's bad habits.

As for the devs, yes they do play through stuff quite often (we call these, "play dates", the community team has them, too from time to time). We also have an entire section of QA that plays through new content and gives feedback to the team in the form of scores (like a game review score) on various aspects. Then it all goes off to Palantir and devs actually watch players play the game live and do Q&A's during the actual attempts in an effort to get even more direct feedback.

Please clarify whether or not 'I do.' extends to the rest of the statement about crafters not being able to make the store pots/horse feed like I'd expect scholars/cooks to do. Or if it merely indicates you craft, or something else entirely. I realize your statement only reflects your personal opinion, and not those of Turbine in this regard. The insight into Palantir is appreciated. I know that the periods where I had +QA watching while I ran through the GB wings was quite helpful, as I exposed bugs I didn't even know were bugs, it also helps devs see what players expect by now.. A certain skirmish in the epic comes to mind, where I rendered it uncompletable by choosing to start the optional encounter between waves, as I had in every skirmish prior to this one, because if it turns out I cant complete it, I can go on and claim the control point and move on. Only in this case, the encounter mob spawns right next to the control point if you choose to start the process, rendering continuing impossible without defeating the optional encounter.

[djheydt]

Well, she didn't really *say* very much, did she? "Anniversary is coming and it's going to be really really neat and eventually, though not yet, there will be a new raid with a Lip-Synching Dragon!!"

Which is no use to those of us who don't and can't raid.

Oh well. As soon as my husband's Warden's Soldier gains a few points, maybe we (Aithlas and his Soldier and my cat and I) can try Northcotton.

[Sapience]

Please clarify whether or not 'I do.'...

The only question asked was 'Does she craft'. Which I answered. The rest of the original statement was just that, a statement. So nothing to answer there.

If people are really curious as to my personal opinion, scroll up a couple posts. I said I use the pots from the LOTRO Store as well from time to time.

I dislike Turbine's continued refusal, in any communication, to acknowledge any form of player dissatisfaction, of whatever magnitude.

I'm not sure where this comes from as we've actually messaged several times that we're aware of things players are dissatisfied with. In fact in Kate's letter she mentions the issues that arose with Update 2 and that we're working to address them. I myself talked about this in a recent interview with A Casual Stroll to Mordor during PAX East, and Orion mentioned it in his Radiance developer diary.

[aleczander]

Sapience, if you're reading this, I really think it would help if you would just confirm for everyone one more time that the devs are not and will not make content specifically geared to be accomplished by using store-exclusive items (Kate's letter does kind of have that flavor). Choosing to use uber-pots to run something on easy-mode is one thing. Making content that is virtually impossible to accomplish without uber-pots is another. I'm not afraid of this happening, but I think the fear of that is what is behind a lot of the moaning in this thread.

I think too many people are reading way too much into this one statement.Kate chooses to use the pots. Ok. I'm sure others do, too. I'm sure some people finish content with them and others without them. Depending on my mood, I do as well. I also, horror of horrors, eat bacon. I'm sure there are plenty of groups out there that hate me for it.

What I find interesting is that for the longest time we've been asked if producers, developers, and the LOTRO team in general play the game and yet here you are looking at a comment not only showing that Kate plays, but what she plays and how she chooses to play and basically ignoring it.

I'm having a hard time understanding how you got the idea that we are "ignoring" a comment, while we are simultaneously breaking down every word of said comment...
and while you are commenting on our comments..??!!

The fact that she CHOSE to state in a high-profile PR letter that she uses the store-pots - that choice that she made is what is making people nervous. You're not "ignoring" that, right?

Edit: in the spirit of keeping Sapience on his toes... do you spend RL cash on TP for store-pots?

[Lord_Fear]

Because for some people, there's nothing in the updates for them?

I don't group (not by choice, but that's just how it's worked out), so that leaves me out of raids and instances. So there was nothing in this recent update, there is nothing in this upcoming update, and apparently won't be until Isengard...

I agree with this.

The best part of this last update for the wife and I was the upgrade to Evendim. Quick note on Evendim, great job! Now some of our lower toons had something a little extra but our 65's didn't. It would be nice if they thought about A LOT of us solo or two player groups when making this stuff. I know you can't make a raid for solo players but the other instances? I hope ROI has many things for solo/2 player groups to do or this ride will be coming to an end for some of us.

[henry316]

I said I use the pots from the LOTRO Store as well from time to time.

Do you or anyone else, to the best of your knowledge, *pay* for them? With cash? That would be compelling information for me. Especially since you can 'manufacture' your own currency in house via TP. Do you get an allowance or are you treated like the rest of us?

We have the employee recommended items every so often, and we have yourself and a few other Turbinites discussing what you buy from the store and use. So compared to the non-Turbine game players do you ever have to worry or fret over money or TP? If not, then it's kind of an apples and oranges discussion as far as using the store is concerned anyway.

/This would be same thing I would ask about the canned audience on Palantir, but I'm pretty sure no one actually spends any money in testing.

[KrustyKlown]

Err... don't everyone talk about store item too much? Its 2011 people, its not 2009 or way back then. Deal with it. Its a company and its here to make money not charity. Although one thing I agree is that its a little bit weird to promo it but its still not a huge issue.

One thing for certain, I hope you just can revamp kinship, hobbies and other present issue before concentrating on new contents, There is many suggestion on the forum and I hope you guys could materialize that.

[Sapience]

Do you or anyone else, to the best of your knowledge, *pay* for them? With cash? That would be compelling information for me. Especially since you can 'manufacture' your own currency in house via TP. Do you get an allowance or are you treated like the rest of us?

We have the employee recommended items every so often, and we have yourself and a few other Turbinites discussing what you buy from the store and use. So compared to the non-Turbine game players do you ever have to worry or fret over money or TP? If not, then it's kind of an apples and oranges discussion as far as using the store is concerned anyway.

I obviously can't speak for anyone else, but yes to both. I have more than one account and my family has additional accounts beyond those. So while I do have an 'allowance' as you put it, I have more accounts than it covers (7 for those curious).

Do I ever fret about money? I don't know anyone who doesn't!

[Ciryandir]

I obviously can't speak for anyone else, but yes to both. I have more than one account and my family has additional accounts beyond those. So while I do have an 'allowance' as you put it, I have more accounts than it covers (7 for those curious).

Do I ever fret about money? I don't know anyone who doesn't!

Sapience, I do appreciate your posts here regarding concerns about some store exclusive items. I also appreciate that WB/T employees also play the game. Finally, I appreciate that WB/T is a money making venture and the store is the prime revenue stream for this game I adore. I guess I just hold out hope that these items that some folks use as a choice don't become a necessary element to successfully complete difficult content in the game. And I also hope that the decision makers in the LotRO hierarchy are aware that some of their customers are concerned that that is what will happen.

Thank you for continuing to engage the community in constructive conversation.

[Crell_1]

/This would be same thing I would ask about the canned audience on Palantir, but I'm pretty sure no one actually spends any money in testing.

I'm sure they have testers who use the store to the extent they do on live. While I'm not aware of their specific testing protocols Turbine has said they wouldn't make them a necessity to do any content, and judging from DDO I see no reason to distrust this statement.

[Baresira]

My question. Why is the presence of the store to vastly different from DDO to LOTRO? When playing DDO, I almost forget there is a store. Whereas in LOTRO, I cannot open a single panel without being reminded of the presence of the store.

I appreciate what the store means to Turbine. I believe what most people object to is the OMG LOTRO STORE buttons everywhere.

I find it hard to believe the LOTRO devs design things in such a way as to think, "You know what would complete this panel? A store button."

[JTollers]

Love the current content for the following reasons:

1. Great Solo stuff (Evendim, Skirms, new Epic (session play), old epics)
2. Great Epic - can do solo or group
3. Great clusters - 2 3-players and 2 6-players with various challenges and great loot
4. No more radiance - opens up all content
5. LI revamp - able to customize and can do it solo
6. Great new raid and it's not only non-kin friendly, it has some hard content at higher tiers for kins
7. Great new armour sets
8. Good PvP update
9. 3 (not YAWN), but good class updates
10. Graphics and immersion looks great (soundtrack wanting though)
11. Overdue crafting update
12. Orange Loot - with one piece available to the solo crowd!

Why I am looking forward to the Anniversary
1. 2 new clusters
2. New special events
3. more class changes coming

Why I liked this letter and the news
1. The new raid will be better with more time. I know that the OD raid is good because of not just the philosophy that went into it, but the amount of time players (non-devs types) put into testing it to make it what it is today. The push of the raid to RoI will be better for it.
2. RoI new level caps
3. New traits
4. New PvP zones
5. New PvE zones
6. New clusters and content and epics

The store has helped this come about. The revenue has helped it come about. The player population has visibly increased since SoM. What is all the fret about. I am a lifer/founder and I use the Store. I also have ran every deed in the game. I want the store to remain in bounds, but geez folks there is so much good stuff here and most of this last update was free to most people (outside of the revenue generate to make it happen).

I honestly appreciate the Letter and believe there is a lot to do right now in the game and more coming in a month.

[DeeArr]

Then it all goes off to Palantir and devs actually watch players play the game live and do Q&A's during the actual attempts in an effort to get even more direct feedback.

Okay. I'm impressed. I think I'll resubmit an application to Palantir, even.

[FoxFire]

I think too many people are reading way too much into this one statement.Kate chooses to use the pots. Ok. I'm sure others do, too. I'm sure some people finish content with them and others without them. Depending on my mood, I do as well. I also, horror of horrors, eat bacon. I'm sure there are plenty of groups out there that hate me for it.

What I find interesting is that for the longest time we've been asked if producers, developers, and the LOTRO team in general play the game and yet here you are looking at a comment not only showing that Kate plays, but what she plays and how she chooses to play and basically ignoring it.

Actually the sense in Kate's letter that she does play LotRO, as a player and not just a Turbine employee, did stand out to me. I did in fact think, 'Hey that's interesting'.

Which is part of why her mentioning that she uses the Store bought pots was particularly concerning.

There have been numerous occasions in game where I'm confident I could have made it through the encounter if only I'd had these pots on me to use (solo and in groups). Now, I don't know if I was just in over my head to begin with or not, but it's the way I play on a regular basis.

At any rate, I stand by the position that these buy advantage, not convenience, and at the very least if they aren't going to be removed from the store, should be obtainable in game (perhaps sold at vendors for LARGE amounts of coin, which I have more than I know what to do with anyway, though many others do not).

[Sapience]

There have been numerous occasions in game where I'm confident I could have made it through the encounter if only I'd had these pots on me to use (solo and in groups). Now, I don't know if I was just in over my head to begin with or not, but it's the way I play on a regular basis.

Good question, and at the risk of sounding flip, I'll quote the old Air Jordan commercials, "It's gotta be the shoes". Right?

[FoxFire]

Good question, and at the risk of sounding flip, I'll quote the old Air Jordan commercials, "It's gotta be the shoes". Right?

I think so.

Of course, the point remains, a player could make it through more difficult encounters, earning greater in-game rewards, by using items ONLY available via Store purchases.

This would be much less of an issue if there were a way to get these in-game, even if at great cost.

[Nicepants42]

What I find interesting is that for the longest time we've been asked if producers, developers, and the LOTRO team in general play the game and yet here you are looking at a comment not only showing that Kate plays, but what she plays and how she chooses to play and basically ignoring it.

She says she has store-only pots on her hot bar, and the concept of raid locks seems new to her. 11/12 OD pref not Kate Paiz pst.

Thank goodness for JWB and the other instance devs.

[Lomeloth]

I think too many people are reading way too much into this one statement.Kate chooses to use the pots. Ok. I'm sure others do, too. I'm sure some people finish content with them and others without them. Depending on my mood, I do as well. I also, horror of horrors, eat bacon. I'm sure there are plenty of groups out there that hate me for it.

Part of the problem is the added weight things like this get, just by virtue of being in the Producer's letter.

What I find interesting is that for the longest time we've been asked if producers, developers, and the LOTRO team in general play the game and yet here you are looking at a comment not only showing that Kate plays, but what she plays and how she chooses to play and basically ignoring it.

I noticed. In fact, right after the groan induced by the Store bludgeon escaped my lips (really, I did groan), my next thought was: "Sheesh, how does she have any room on her hotbars for all that, too?!"

Now I've done it. Next Store update: More hotbars. /kicks self

[aleczander]

I think so.

Of course, the point remains, a player could make it through more difficult encounters, earning greater in-game rewards, by using items ONLY available via Store purchases.

This would be much less of an issue if there were a way to get these in-game, even if at great cost.

QFT.
Store-only pots CAN make or break a successful dungeon run. When a player's skill-progression gets to this proverbial fence, how is the choice between conquering an instance, or wiping = convenience and not advantage?
I'm all for LOTROSTORE profits to help improve this game, but at what cost to the game itself?

[Lomeloth]

I'm not sure where this comes from as we've actually messaged several times that we're aware of things players are dissatisfied with. In fact in Kate's letter she mentions the issues that arose with Update 2 and that we're working to address them. I myself talked about this in a recent interview with A Casual Stroll to Mordor during PAX East, and Orion mentioned it in his Radiance developer diary.

Let me try to clarify it for you then. I can't speak to the poster who you quoted, but I can tell you where it comes from for me: Deletion and forcible renaming of threads containing unfavourable feedback, lack of official comments in even official threads where sentiments run strongly on issues, and sly brush-offs in more casual posts (for example, your post about fretting about money - a truism that doesn't actually answer the question asked). Taken as a whole, there's a perceived pattern of sweeping things under the rug or out the door. I am sure that pattern is not a deliberate one, and the remedial action on bugs introduced is of course welcome - but fixing what players discover is broken is not the same thing as demonstrating you're listening to us in a broader sense.

[starscolapse]

They let dwarves talk, why not more intelligent creatures?

/couldn't help myself

*dies laughing*