Is using Overpower a necessary evil?

[chazcon3]

Really you folks need to get out more. Attempting to discredit me because you don't agree is an entire sub-game unto itself, isn't it? And even Evandale, mighty number cruncher, missing my sarcasm and going off on a wild goose-chase cracks me up.

People, relax. You are far too obsessed with black and white and are missing all the shades of gray. Just accept the fact that I am right, hang your heads down and get back to grinding. Who gave you permission to speak anyway?

[Zaestro]

Isn't it time yet to hibernate again for a few weeks/months...before the next round of misinformation and e-peen tomfoolery?

[bitznarf]

Having said that, I generally feel that if they're in anything other than Red for a regular instance, I can be pretty sure they're not gonna be as good as I'd hope.

You an I clearly have 2 very different opinions on the role of a guardian in a group.

Ok lets say a very good Champ or Hunter then (I guess we have different views on what constitutes decent), who is trying to output high dps without giving you a lead.

Either that or you are underestimating what a yellow traited guard can do.

And refer to: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...80#post5313280.

Moving to an appropriate thread.

In my opinion the role of a guardian (in *very* broad terms) in group content is to minimize the amount of healing that is required. With that in mind, I'd like to take a look at traiting red vs. yellow for the new instances. I'm presuming the rest of the group are quality characters/players.

3/6 man content

• NCF & SH: I still trait yellow line here because I have met some very bad captains in PUGs. I'd rather not die from lack of heals.
• LT: You've said "you will die if you pull all the aggro and don't kite/pledge/kill stuff fast anyway regardless of whether or not you have a shield out." From personal experience I don't believe this. I tank it in yellow line with a shield and I don't die. I don't have to kite, I don't have to pledge every time. Perhaps this just speaks to the quality of the healers but I do know that the group as a whole requires less healing than if I was in OP traited red line. For the final boss, if the extra DPS from traiting red line and going OP is required to kill the adds fast enough, then the rest of the group doesn't have enough DPS. Thus, I prefer yellow for the whole instance.
• SS: You have a point with Coldbear, but for the rest of the instance I'll stick with being able to block. IMO no clear winner here.

Ost Dunhoth

• Wound: If there is only 1 guard in the group, he needs the extra defence from yellow line IMO. If the guard is tanking the adds rather than the mammoths, agreed, red line is better due to the DPS race nature of Challenge Mode.
• Disease: If the rest of the group cannot kill these trees fast enough without the guard traiting red line, they are doing it wrong. Thus I focus on the actual potential dangerous portions of the fight when the bog lurkers have spawned. The extra defence here from having a shield is enormously useful, taking a lot of strain off of the healers. Yellow line wins.
• Poison: You're either main tanking or tank swapping. If the rest of the group doesn't have enough DPS on Frothmar to finish him within 10 minutes, without you traited red line, your group is doing it wrong. Trait yellow.
• Fear: You're main tank swapping. Trait yellow.
• Ivar and Gortheron: if you have two guards, sure one can go OP and trait red line. Otherwise yellow.

As I understand it the core of your contention for traiting red line is this so I will address it directly:

Additionally, you gain a lot of dps from red traits, and gain comparatively very minimal survivability from yellow traits. When you're better off using a shield, aggro is rarely (if ever) an issue, so blue line is usually wasted.

The times when the extra DPS is useful I've noted above. Anytime when you would be using a shield off and on the extra DPS is not needed. In raids when using a shield by traiting 5 yellow 2 blue your aggro while using a shield is much higher than your aggro when traited 5 red and using a shield. This difference allows DPS classes to do more DPS without pulling aggro. As for yellow line's extra survive-ability, you're right it isn't a huge amount but it is still noticeable. Having 4700 melee crit defence and 4200 elsewhere is nothing to turn your nose up at; spike damage is one of the most dangerous things for a tank and this helps mitigate those risks. Never needing to take a power pot or receive power from a lore-master is handy but not required. Just a convenience I suppose but me and my 300 ICPR like it.

No, you actually generate a tonne more threat in OP (especially AoE threat, but also single target). Going Litany Master + Threat Stance is the only way to compete with the threat gen of OP.

Agreed. However you do take more damage doing so.

Yup, you don't take all that much damage in OP because:
a) You put the Stagger debuff on mobs a large proportion of the time (even from in front just due to crits)
b) You use TTK frequently which stun locks most bosses for a non trivial amount of time
c) A lot of mobs put out b/p/e debuffs, etc.
d) Pledge makes you near invincible regardless of stance.
e) You kill things MUCH faster

The last time I traited red line on a regular basis was back when I was still doing the repeatables out of Thanghulad. If memory serves when I would go up against mobs like the Uruk signatures, I would come out of those fights with more morale and power when using a shield and traited yellow than using OP and traited red line. Did things die faster in OP? Of course, but I also took more damage. For instances captains had a much easier time keeping everyone alive in Sword Halls and Warg Pens when I was traited yellow rather than red, and that's my whole goal as a tank. It's to make things easy. Slow and easy is still easy.

[Evendale]

Re LT: The Debuff stacks up to 5. Maybe if you have a HoH Capt and a Minstrel you might be able to live without waiting for pledge between each pull, but otherwise you're probably not holding as much aggro as you think... (or using a lot of CC or something)

Re raiding: I was pointing out the times when you should "use" OP in instances/raids, not when you should "trait for" OP. I'm basically always traited five yellow in OD (except for wound, or when not tanking Ivar or Gortheron). You kinda side-stepped the whole point there by talking about raiding throughout your entire post, because obviously raids are a different game altogether.

Re damage taken: Consider that one Disable/Fire Lore will reduce the damage you take by more than you lose from switching from Shield to OP. If a healer can keep you up with a shield on, they can almost always keep you up while in OP as well.



So I don't really disagree with much else that you said. If you and your whole group value slow and easy, then in many cases you may as well trait yellows. But consider the points below:

It's funny (ok, hilarious) that you talk about the quality of the healers you group with and yet you're unwilling to trait red because it would make their job too hard .

Extra DPS is always useful (if you value time at all). Extra survivability is only useful if you have a group of six people who don't care about time, and only care about easyness (see below).

And most importantly, everything you've said is marred by the fact that you think you can hold aggro with five yellow traits. The simple fact is that unless you group with people who are either (a) bad, or (b) very mild mannered, gracious, & patient, you are going to spend most of the time in a regular instance sitting there feeling like a nub while the champs/hunters have all the aggro (if you're traited five yellows).

Like Zaestro said in the other thread, for regular instances, its GT or OP or go home.

[bitznarf]

Re LT: The Debuff stacks up to 5. Maybe if you have a HoH Capt and a Minstrel you might be able to live without waiting for pledge between each pull, but otherwise you're probably not holding as much aggro as you think... (or using a lot of CC or something)
...
Re damage taken: Consider that one Disable/Fire Lore will reduce the damage you take by more than you lose from switching from Shield to OP. If a healer can keep you up with a shield on, they can almost always keep you up while in OP as well.
...
It's funny (ok, hilarious) that you talk about the quality of the healers you group with and yet you're unwilling to trait red because it would make their job too hard .

My point with the healer comment was that I was willing to consider good healing as the reason I don't need panic buttons fighting trash in LT when I hold aggro on all the mobs. As for CC, of course there is CC. Mobs getting stunned on a regular basis by LMs/champs being one of the most effective ones IMO. Lastly, while a healer may be able to keep me up in OP, my job is to make their life easier, not harder.

Re raiding: I was pointing out the times when you should "use" OP in instances/raids, not when you should "trait for" OP. I'm basically always traited five yellow in OD (except for wound, or when not tanking Ivar or Gortheron). You kinda side-stepped the whole point there by talking about raiding throughout your entire post, because obviously raids are a different game altogether.

If you scroll up you may notice that I addressed the new 3/6 man instances. For 3 of the 4 I agreed with you that traiting OP will work just fine for the most part.

Extra DPS is always useful (if you value time at all). Extra survivability is only useful if you have a group of six people who don't care about time, and only care about easyness (see below).

And most importantly, everything you've said is marred by the fact that you think you can hold aggro with five yellow traits. The simple fact is that unless you group with people who are either (a) bad, or (b) very mild mannered, gracious, & patient, you are going to spend most of the time in a regular instance sitting there feeling like a nub while the champs/hunters have all the aggro (if you're traited five yellows).

I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult my intelligence and the skills of other players on Brandywine. Maybe you used to be on Brandywine in times past and have played with the DPS over here, I don't know. You haven't run with me. I hold aggro using 5 yellows when playing with good DPS players. What metric would you consider appropriate given that we play on different servers?

[Evendale]

I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult my intelligence and the skills of other players on Brandywine. Maybe you used to be on Brandywine in times past and have played with the DPS over here, I don't know. You haven't run with me. I hold aggro using 5 yellows when playing with good DPS players. What metric would you consider appropriate given that we play on different servers?

Sorry if you felt I was insulting you.

If anything I was stating that you must be a much better player than the people you play with (if you can hold aggro in yellows).

But I did acknowledge the possibility that the people you play with are just very patient. Maybe I just group with egotistical impatient DPSers.


If I can't hold aggro in 5 yellows and you can, that means that either:
(a) I'm bad
(b) Your DPSers are bad
(c) You're exaggerating greatly with what you mean by "hold aggro"

I'm picking (b)/(c), but if you think its (a), we can hold different opinions and call it a day.

[bitznarf]

we can hold different opinions and call it a day.

Sounds like a deal.

[Zaestro]

I'm going with option D: e-peen nonsense and ego investment coloring perceptions.

Even cruddy champs spamming certain skills without control and/or ebbing, will rip aggro from ANY guard traited 5 yellows in block stance, especially if we are talking about multiple targets.

I am going to be direct...anyone claiming anything else is not telling the truth...whether that may be genuinely unawares as to fooling him/herself, or with full intent by posting same here and knowing better.

[bitznarf]

I'm going with option D: e-peen nonsense and ego investment coloring perceptions.

If you consider 'all the mobs are attacking the guard' to be coloured perception then sure, guilty.

Even cruddy champs spamming certain skills without control and/or ebbing, will rip aggro from ANY guard traited 5 yellows in block stance, especially if we are talking about multiple targets.

I am going to be direct...anyone claiming anything else is not telling the truth...whether that may be genuinely unawares as to fooling him/herself, or with full intent by posting same here and knowing better.

Last edited by Zaestro; Today at 09:25 PM. Reason: ooooo....Brandywine!!!!...that is SOooooo instructive...actually explains a lot!

Whatever that skill is, either the champs on my server do not do as you describe or you are wrong. Your backhand insults are not appreciated, nor the crack at Brandywine, whatever that comment is actually about.

[Zaestro]

mmmhmmm...very convincing. As for the Brandywine thing...people from your server are pretty famous for touting that fact as some form of de facto evidence of merit. Your having done just that and not even realizing that you have done so, goes along with my choice D conclusion about skewed e-peen and untruth.

[bitznarf]

mmmhmmm...very convincing. As for the Brandywine thing...people from your server are pretty famous for touting that fact as some form of de facto evidence of merit. Your having done just that and not even realizing that you have done so, goes along with my choice D conclusion about skewed e-peen and untruth.

I don't consider playing on Brandywine to be any form of special merit. What I have done is attempt to defend un-involved people from slander. I would appreciate it if you would stop your personal attacks.

[Zaestro]

I don't consider playing on Brandywine to be any form of special merit.

Glad to hear it. There is nothing personal in telling you that your position smacks of e-peen and is false.

[bitznarf]

Moving this off thread. Sorry folks.

[Dom12]

mmmhmmm...very convincing. As for the Brandywine thing...people from your server are pretty famous for touting that fact as some form of de facto evidence of merit. Your having done just that and not even realizing that you have done so, goes along with my choice D conclusion about skewed e-peen and untruth.

Brandywine is one of the highest population servers. It's going to have more "bad apples" purely due to the fact that it's a bigger orchard. Assuming anyone who mentions they're from BW is an epeener is just stupid.

[Celestrata]

I'm going to close this thread as I think the OP's question has been answered, but there's one thing I'd like to point out before doing so.

It's perfectly fine to debate opinions on the game's statistics and your personal play styles. However, it is not fine to begin personally attacking others while you do so. This involves insulting their intelligence, calling them "fail" or "bad," or insulting them in any other matter. Doing so is a violation of the community guidelines.