The Wait is finally over: Guardians

[khanden]

i agree that its no longer just possible that guards will be in a bad state in ROI its now quite certain
the huge changes to the stat ratings and combat mechanics leave us with a very large defect to wardens and champions. its not like they haven't had time to come up with more improvements for guards given the long wait and they haven't said there going to fix overpower use when S&B which is long over due nor remove the -evade from overpower which leaves us with an even bigger deficit with higher ratings cap.

i for one expected so much more from this update given guardians have been passed by so many times before. i dont mind so much that were not getting a dps role ( which is wrong due to the champ changes ) but if our 1 role as a tank is so lacking and wardens and champions (in a secondary tank stance) become so superior its MoM round 2.

[Evendale]

Here is the Summarized Version of the changes that highlights anything important (NB: everything subject to change):

Green = Good Change
Yellow = Decent Change
Red = Meh. Who cares


Note: In RoI, Guardians can get higher BPE relative to other classes (except Wardens) than they currently can (see stat updates blog). Also, mobs with high Finesse will hit tanks (players with high BPE) comparatively less hard than other classes even more so than normal mobs will, because Finesse reduces BPE ratings (thus reducing a smaller percentage from players with high BPE ratings).



Tanking

• Guardian’s Ward will (in addition to current function) increase tactical mitigation.
• Whirling Ret can now (this appears to be optional, though was not clear) be used before Ret in the parry chain (and the rest of the chain continued afterwards as normal).
• Guardian’s Defence (and Challenge) will now place an effect on anything that attacks the Guardian that will snare the attacker if it does not continue to attack the Guardian. Presumably near useless outside of PvP (depending on if it applies as soon as the mob switches aggro target or not until it actually hits the target).

Overpower

• Protection usable in Overpower. Increases the target’s melee damage by +2% and transfers any Parry events.
• Overwhelm will add a (unspecified magnitude) BPE debuff to target.
• Haemorrhage – adds +15% damage to all Guardian bleeds (presumably in addition to its current function).

Sadly, very few changes






NB: Other Fluff Changes that have no impact:

• Bash and Shield Swipe will interrupt any inductions on Stun immune monsters.
• Threatening Presence and Stoic have switched trait lines. Stoic adds slightly more Vitality.
• To the Rescue (+5% run speed) and Quickness (+5% attack speed) combined. New trait added that adds +1500 parry and subtracts -900 evade.
• Selfless Defence now also transfers threat to the Guardian every time the Protected target is hit.
• Final Straw has been changed. It will now double the chance of triggering a Fellowship Manoeuvre each step.

[Zento]

this update is most certainly not the big one everyone anticipated/hoped for.
it addresses some issues, like additional defences against tactical damage, or improving the usability of OP grd's as dps without tanking.

the trait changes are all minor ones.
swapping stoic/threatening presence was predictable, and since i use both of em 24/7 nothing changes for me.
Final Straw will still be rarely used, since its probably still easier to get an FM using TTK. the issue that the stacking gets cancelled if you get a single resist is still present. and its still useless in raids.
scaling stoic to the player level could be nice, depending on how much vitalitys it will actually give in the end.
Haemorrhage is still an unimpressive legendary trait.

[Evendale]

This isn't really an update, just a few very small changes. There is only a single thing that is interesting, protection being usable in OP to create parries. The thing is people have been begging for this for years and its long overdue. Other classes have had large updates since guardians and had any kind of update and are getting another large update now, where as we get nothing but a few insignificant tweaks.

There are some big issues that needed to be addressed:

No bpe in tactical fights, like twins in BG. Our tanking is based on getting bpe's, so what should we do in fights where you get none? A skill to give a block response had been suggested by people in the past and i was really sure we would get it with isengard, but i guess not.

OP dps is great for short fights, but not viable for long fights due to power restrictions. Champions are getting a change to make them viable as tanks(in the words of devs, as good as wardens and guardians), as well as being the best for single target and aoe dps in the game. Yet still our dps wont be viable in instances. However the class is far too good in ettenmoors, and should be nerfed because its ridiculous how easily a guardian can beat most things out there.

There is nothing for guardians to do in combat to increase survivability except use guardians ward every 10-20 seconds. This should be a huge part of tanking. Wardens can use gambits to boost survivability and from reading the champ dev diaries, this will be a big part of tanking for a champ too. Why can't guardians do this? Imagine a fight where dps does not matter, and agro does not matter, like 2nd boss in Suri Sama or last boss in Lost Temple. What exactly is the guardian supposed to do in these fights? It would make sense to just go afk/alt tab but because of certain mechanics we can't even do this. These fights are unbelievably boring to tank as a Guardian because we do nothing.

Totally agree with you! I have gone afk during Osan (yup, was just healed through the aoe).

This update sorely lacks changes, and its not like there hasn't been a multitude of suggestions in these forums over the last few weeks/months and beyond.

[Drglory]

Congratulations Guardians. You have just discovered what it is like to be the lesser tank. Do not cry over the loss of your preferred tank status. Now the playing field is even. You have your mitigation, and we have our avoidances. As it should be.

I vote this expansion be renamed Rise of the Warden.

Now all picking aside my guardian alt finds this very underwhelming. However there isn't that much you can do to the guardian class in the first place.

[Faithbringer]

I have to admit that I do not regularly visit the Guardian forum. For those of you who are reacting with Doom-n-Gloom I'm curious what changes you were expecting or hoping for. What, in your minds, makes you an inadequate tank at the moment that needed improvement? As I mentioned in my previous post, the stat changes are more of a lateral widening of the Warden's capabilities... they don't really move us up in the "OP" rankings... just versatility. The proposed Warden changes do some work to even the playing field a little bit as we are getting a gambit to help us sort of cope with stuns and tactical damage. Still, I don't see any glaring oversights. I am rather curious what was expected as far as Guardian changes though.

[Orion]

Orion, how can you justify giving Champions, the preferred DPS class, tanking skills as a "secondary role", yet you leave Guardians as one trick ponies? Why the double standard?

Champions have always been able to tank. All I am doing is making their tanking line more consistent with the game play of the Champion and less like the game play of the guardian.

[brasswire]

Wardens were OP before these changes, They gained an "I Win button" with their changes and now the stat changes are making them even more desired than a Guardian will be.

I lol'd. Yes Wardens are very powerful solo machines. But I don't know anyone who currently (ie pre-updates) would choose to take a Warden in a group situation over an equally skilled Guardian. Quite the opposite in fact. We have people who will openly complain if we bring a Warden in our raids, as though we're basically throwing away a spot. We have people who refuse to go on raids if we can't get a Guardian to tank, they will not accept a Warden tank. Are these people stupid? Perhaps. However, they also represent a not-small section of the player-base, and they're not completely wrong in the fact that Wardens needed improvements to bring them up to the level of Guardians when it comes to raid tanking.

[Faithbringer]

Champions have always been able to tank. All I am doing is making their tanking line more consistent with the game play of the Champion and less like the game play of the guardian.

Any Guardian or Warden worth his (or her) salt should not be concerned about patches as tank roles typically go to those who can perform them well ... not cry the loudest. Even before seeing the Warden changes and the stat changes I was fine and maybe even excited for the Champ tanking updates. I didn't see myself in the tank unemployment line just because Champs were getting a readjustment of playstyle.

[CrusaderOfMetal]

Well, I really don't know what to say. See, there are some nice changes in there, but the fact that some of these improvements are fixes just make them all useless.

If you are condensing everything in the game, why can't our block and parry stances be combined into one skill? And why don't make the bonuses to go 10% with the 65+ improvement? Considering that we don't know what will be a normal BPE % at 75 and if it stays the same and enemies will have finesse, we can well be the new fervour champs! Hooray! BUT if by some reason, we'll be hitting stuff like 25% with ward on, then it's another story. I always feel that you don't give us enough info and so we make wrong judgements.

Just one thing, it's about time to legendarize our legendaries. The only legendary that I love is TTK and shield smash occasionally when I can get a 1,5k+ devastate. But the other ones... I don't know, CtD could have a lower cooldown and Haemmorage could apply all the time for example.

Everyone is getting at least one small thing new, we are just getting fixes (not even a new skill!), that doesn't seem fair after that much time with nothing. If you took -heal penalty from fervour champs, why can't we have our +power taken off from OP? Because we'll be somewhat good DPSers?

If you want to take something out, please take Ignore the Pain. With the 5min CD it's just as useful as Final Straw (the old and the new one, BTW).

I really liked the change to Challenge and Guardian's Defence, tough. Most of the posters here a little doom-and-gloom, and although that's the way of humans, perhaps something is not nice...

[Evendale]

I have to admit that I do not regularly visit the Guardian forum. For those of you who are reacting with Doom-n-Gloom I'm curious what changes you were expecting or hoping for. What, in your minds, makes you an inadequate tank at the moment that needed improvement? As I mentioned in my previous post, the stat changes are more of a lateral widening of the Warden's capabilities... they don't really move us up in the "OP" rankings... just versatility. The proposed Warden changes do some work to even the playing field a little bit as we are getting a gambit to help us sort of cope with stuns and tactical damage. Still, I don't see any glaring oversights. I am rather curious what was expected as far as Guardian changes though.

I don't know why there is a sudden surge of people claiming wardens are such great tanks. They obviously currently aren't used as much as Guardians in raids, and people who raid a lot would realize that. The stat update will certainly benefit Wardens more than Guardians, but as you say its unlikely to radically change how the classes play out.


That said, I was expecting some changes. As in, more than three or four changes that actually strike me as reasonably useful. Some things from http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ges-Do-We-Want would have been nice.

[Crissaegrim]

Guardian’s Defence will now place an effect on anything that attacks the Guardian that will snare the attacker if it does not continue to attack the Guardian.

Challenge will now place an effect on a monster that will snare the monster if it does not continue to attack the Guardian for the next 30 seconds.

We would like to see a confirmation on whether or not this snaring will be functional against Monster Players.

Whirling Retaliation will now be useable after a Parry event and adds the Retaliation event when used so that the Parry chain can proceed.

This is a very welcome change. Thank you.

Quickness – new trait. Adds +Parry rating (+1500 at level 75). Subtracts Evade rating (-900 at level 75).

As most everyone has replied with disbelief on this one, can we confirm whether or not this is a typo, and that the Quickness trait actually increases Parry AND increases our Evade as well? A net gain of 600 parry at level 75 seems a tad laughable, and a decrease in one's Evade when equipping a trait named "Quickness" seems counter-intuitive.

Haemorrhage – adds +15% damage to all Guardian bleeds.

Insufficient change, and overly-complicated when you're dealing with stacking this percentage with Salt the Wound's percentage. Leave the percentages on Damage alone, and raise the Percentage chance of Haemorrhage to proc substantially. Haemorrhage is a Legendary Skill, not a 50/50 draw at the local bingo hall.

We gave some thought to giving an increase in damage plus a lowering of power costs and the locking out of some tanking skills. In the end, we decided that Guardians are not Champions and the classes are close enough already.

Yes, and with the proposed changes to Champions, far, far too close. This is a Pandora's Box that the Dev team has opened, and you'll need to bite the bullet on the changes needed to make it fair across the classes you've affected. Give Guardians the bump in damage they need to retain a viable role as a DPS class to the equivalence that you've bumped the Champions to be viable as a Tanking class. Anything else reeks of a double-standard.

[Faithbringer]

I lol'd. Yes Wardens are very powerful solo machines. But I don't know anyone who currently (ie pre-updates) would choose to take a Warden in a group situation over an equally skilled Guardian. Quite the opposite in fact. We have people who will openly complain if we bring a Warden in our raids, as though we're basically throwing away a spot. We have people who refuse to go on raids if we can't get a Guardian to tank, they will not accept a Warden tank. Are these people stupid? Perhaps. However, they also represent a not-small section of the player-base, and they're not completely wrong in the fact that Wardens needed improvements to bring them up to the level of Guardians when it comes to raid tanking.

This is fact. I have been allowed to replace Guardians in PUGs only when somebody in the PUG knows me and my capability; never simply because of my class. However, I can say the opposite is true... I have joined PUGs with lesser geared and lesser skilled Guards and have been forced into a DPS role. A DPS role which I might add seems even less effective to me than a properly geared/traited OP guard. But that argument is a decayed (not just dead) horse by now.

[speaksoftly]

Personally, I haven't played the guard in a while (still stuck at the old 60 cap, wife doesn't feel like playing her min anymore). That said,

* Whirling retaliation being moved earlier in the chain and not closing the chain is great.
* Having mobs hit harder and pushing the BPE higher, is great for tanks
* To the Rescue being run speed and attack speed is nice
* an offensive protection buff, nice
* guardian's ward working for tactical attacks, win
* stun attacks will interrupt immune mobs, this is GREAT did we just become the king of interrupts?

Overall, the changes weren't sweeping (the stat changes are, not the class changes), but every one of them is good, not all of them are great, but we were in a good place before, we didn't need all that much. Plus OP tanking is considered a feature, not a bug!

[Faithbringer]

I don't know why there is a sudden surge of people claiming wardens are such great tanks. They obviously currently aren't used as much as Guardians in raids, and people who raid a lot would realize that. The stat update will certainly benefit Wardens more than Guardians, but as you say its unlikely to radically change how the classes play out.


That said, I was expecting some changes. As in, more than three or four changes that actually strike me as reasonably useful. Some things from http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ges-Do-We-Want would have been nice.

I read you link, Evendale, and it would appear that some but not all of your requests were met at least in some fashion:

1. Make Bosses Need Tanks: Finesse + removal of stat caps seems to be a move in this direction. This should incite celebrations from ALL tanks ... Guards, Wardens, Champs, Loremaster pets ( ;-D ) HOORAY

2. Crit 4 ... I don't know what you meant here

3. Take stamp cooldown off the DoF trait set. I do think the Stamp trait is kinda silly ... I would actually propose just lowering the CD and keeping the legacy for it ... but this one doesn't appear to be handled

4. Add noncommon mitigation to places other than gear set bonuses. Well, at least they're consolidating these. Anyways this is a general tanking issue anyways and it affects us all sadly. I hate taking off my OD set to throw on a ###### 3 piece lvl 60 set for shadow mit ( I am one piece short of my BG shadow bonus qq)

5. Bad traits. Skill and Power (Warden trait) ... nuff said lol

6. I actually agree that the Protection range is silly. And they didn't seem to address this. Although being able to use it in OP is intriguing

7. Make Stoic give raw morale instead of Vit. This is no longer an issue I'd imagine with the stat cap changes

8. Make Sting not subject to post-animation delay. Yeh this one wasn't addressed and I agree it sucks. Much like the ridiculopusly long Dance of War "shimmie" gambit :-P

9. Make Haemorrhage a certain bleed. Well, they made it a little better at least

10. Make Shield Smash and To The King Fast .... Not addressed from what I can tell

[SirJeffreyAlan2]

I see many of my fellow Guardians in this thread crying about the update that wardens and maybe even champs will outshine us.

what are you guys a bunch of cry babies?
you need some tissues?

We are Guardians we are the ultimate bad azz in this game nobody can take the beating we can and nobody can dish it out like we can while taking that beating. We will improvise adapt and overcome anything the devs throw at us playing a Guardian in this game is all about attitude you have to want that mob or boss to hit you no warden or champ will ever out tank us they can try they may even have a moment in the sun but we are better and we know it

Please remember this is just the initial announcement about our changes for RoI for those of us that get into the beta please go through everything test it. see how it works. make comments to the devs during the beta as to what is working or not working. post on the forums if its allowed let others know.

Now for a little sample of just how Awesome we truly are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-413EijybiI

show me a champ that can do this pull solo a warden maybe but not 1 single other class in the game can do this!

[Faithbringer]

I see many of my fellow Guardians in this thread crying about the update that wardens and maybe even champs will outshine us.

what are you guys a bunch of cry babies?
you need some tissues?

We are Guardians we are the ultimate bad azz in this game nobody can take the beating we can and nobody can dish it out like we can while taking that beating. We will improvise adapt and overcome anything the devs throw at us playing a Guardian in this game is all about attitude you have to want that mob or boss to hit you no warden or champ will ever out tank us they can try they may even have a moment in the sun but we are better and we know it

Please remember this is just the initial announcement about our changes for RoI for those of us that get into the beta please go through everything test it. see how it works. make comments to the devs during the beta as to what is working or not working. post on the forums if its allowed let others know.

Now for a little sample of just how Awesome we truly are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-413EijybiI

show me a champ that can do this pull solo a warden maybe but not 1 single other class in the game can do this!

Nice to see a Guard acting like a Guard in this thread finally :-D. I would be happy to be trying to "outtank" you any day :-).

[Grampsaz]

Champions have always been able to tank. All I am doing is making their tanking line more consistent with the game play of the Champion and less like the game play of the guardian.

Not to mention OP guards can DPS amazingly well if you put the time into it. Maybe a helping hand with the legacy grind would be nice, but OP guards can bring dps to a fellowship/raid.

Just need leaders to smarten up and realize how much dps they can actually put out.

[Reximus]

Wardens can afford to stack huge might and vitality because of how they can increase their avoidances will essentially be much better than Guardians in alot of stuff.

This assumes that after the stats changes go through that Wardens will have might available to stack. The other 3 Medium armor classes won't have any use for Might post RoI, and ICPR is still vital for Wardens, so options can very well be limited via itemization.

[Evendale]

I read you link, Evendale, and it would appear that some but not all of your requests were met at least in some fashion:

1. Make Bosses Need Tanks: Finesse + removal of stat caps seems to be a move in this direction. This should incite celebrations from ALL tanks ... Guards, Wardens, Champs, Loremaster pets ( ;-D ) HOORAY

2. Crit 4 ... I don't know what you meant here

3. Take stamp cooldown off the DoF trait set. I do think the Stamp trait is kinda silly ... I would actually propose just lowering the CD and keeping the legacy for it ... but this one doesn't appear to be handled

4. Add noncommon mitigation to places other than gear set bonuses. Well, at least they're consolidating these. Anyways this is a general tanking issue anyways and it affects us all sadly. I hate taking off my OD set to throw on a ###### 3 piece lvl 60 set for shadow mit ( I am one piece short of my BG shadow bonus qq)

5. Bad traits. Skill and Power (Warden trait) ... nuff said lol

6. I actually agree that the Protection range is silly. And they didn't seem to address this. Although being able to use it in OP is intriguing

7. Make Stoic give raw morale instead of Vit. This is no longer an issue I'd imagine with the stat cap changes

8. Make Sting not subject to post-animation delay. Yeh this one wasn't addressed and I agree it sucks. Much like the ridiculopusly long Dance of War "shimmie" gambit :-P

9. Make Haemorrhage a certain bleed. Well, they made it a little better at least

10. Make Shield Smash and To The King Fast .... Not addressed from what I can tell

First and foremost, I wasn't referring just to the OP of that thread, but rather all the suggestions made throughout. There were a lot of good suggestions made later on (and in other threads).


That said, we did not get many of the suggested changes that happened to be in that one specific post you are referring to:
1) Attempted to be Given. Whether it works or not in any way remains to be seen.
2) No change. (Melee Crit passives 3&4)
3) No change. (we got bash interrupt, but that is reactive gated, so near useless imo)
4) No change. Yes the consolidation makes this almost a non-issue though..
5) No changes were made to any of these traits though (not sure what point you were trying to make here).
6) No changes made. Though yes protection use in OP is a better change, and one that was suggested later in that thread.
7) No longer an issue at all. Sure.
8) No changes made. Though I don't care too much personally.
9) A change, but a pathetic one, that will have minimal impact, and doesn't address the big issue of "luck".
10) No changes made.

[striverg]

Now for a little sample of just how Awesome we truly are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-413EijybiI

show me a champ that can do this pull solo a warden maybe but not 1 single other class in the game can do this!

I wish I had access to that much morale return gear

[Faithbringer]

I wish I had access to that much morale return gear

I know you already know this, Rata ... but for everybody else "Soloing" is not a viable raid role :-).

[Ayrolen]

Congratulations Guardians. You have just discovered what it is like to be the lesser tank. Do not cry over the loss of your preferred tank status. Now the playing field is even. You have your mitigation, and we have our avoidances. As it should be.

I vote this expansion be renamed Rise of the Warden.

Now all picking aside my guardian alt finds this very underwhelming. However there isn't that much you can do to the guardian class in the first place.

Last night in GLFF on Elendilmir, someone posted this: "LF1M Forgotten Treasury tank or warden PST"

I think that tells you all you need to know about the current "balance" in tanking classes. Therefore, I'd suggest a slightly revised RoI motto: "Le tank est mort, vive le tank!"

[striverg]

I know you already know this, Rata ... but for everybody else "Soloing" is not a viable raid role :-).

Well I assumed the large majority of the doom and gloom-ers were mostly solo and small group people so I was appealing to them here, as the large majority of raiding guards should know what kind of advantages they have over wardens that have nothing to do with stat changes at all.

[Azerog]

First and foremost, I wasn't referring just to the OP of that thread, but rather all the suggestions made throughout. There were a lot of good suggestions made later on (and in other threads).


That said, we did not get many of the suggested changes that happened to be in that one specific post you are referring to:
1) Attempted to be Given. Whether it works or not in any way remains to be seen.
2) No change. (Melee Crit passives 3&4)
3) No change. (we got bash interrupt, but that is reactive gated, so near useless imo)
4) No change. Yes the consolidation makes this almost a non-issue though..
5) No changes were made to any of these traits though (not sure what point you were trying to make here).
6) No changes made. Though yes protection use in OP is a better change, and one that was suggested later in that thread.
7) No longer an issue at all. Sure.
8) No changes made. Though I don't care too much personally.
9) A change, but a pathetic one, that will have minimal impact, and doesn't address the big issue of "luck".
10) No changes made.

One change Even, on point 2, as there are no more passives this is a moot point.