Tolkien and the colours

[Marguerita]

Well to all of you Lore knowledgeable i have a question.

As Tolkien envisionned almost everything in his Books, did he said anything about the colours that should fit in it ?

Did he really wrote about having those flashy bright colours actually in the game ?

Just beeing curious

[Ceorai]

not sure what you mean about those flashy bright colors. Most ppl seem to think LOTRO uses a fairly water-colory, naturalistic palette compared to things like WoW, etc...

Also, he describes the colors of lots of things: Clothes, places, skies, trees. Anything more specific you were wondering about?

[DarkCntry]

It all depends on where we're talking about...

The Professor was pretty forthcoming when it came to explaining just how bright and vibrant things were in the Shire, equally as vibrant in Rivendell. When we start directly discussing the events that take place in LOTR itself, however, we start to see more to the effect of the spread of Evil.

Color and vibrancy were allegory to the Free People, and effectively all good, where-as dull, dreary colors were meant more towards the Evil side.

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

Not sure what the question refers to.

The appearance of most peoples characters (including my own) armour wouldn't fit, far too vibrant. Alot of the armour itself is out-of-place, too spiky, flashy, over the top generic fantasy armour (and weapons).

Other than that I'm not sure what you mean.

[TharbadThief]

In the prologue of Lord of the Rings, Tolkien wrote that hobbits like to wear bright colours, especially yellow and green. There could be similar descriptions to other races' clothing too, but I'm not able to remember those passages now.

[Marguerita]

yes sorry i will try to add some more precision

I was more thinking about the last outfits and horses colours, and some pieces of armor.

Not the game palette itself which i love most

But lately i just interrogated myself about having some of those very bright colour in middle of a battle .... perfect target ...


But on a more lore related did he speak about Rohan colours, Gondor colours, Rivendell ....... their banners or all those in game are strictly invented by Turbine ...

[Ironcrown]

How about the different color hoods of the Dwarves in Thorin's Comapny??? Tolkien seemed to make a point about who wore which color but never explained the significance.

[Fortinobrand]

With regard to colour, I think we have to assume that Tolkien invented most of them. There are two pieces of evidence for this.

1 -- Your computer is capable of producing a bajillion colors. Go, count them, I'll wait. Oh, only 16 million, ok no worries we'll get there it's on the boards. The biggest baddest computer Tolkien could have accessed was a Ferranti Atlas 1 at Chilton, and that's assuming he could have had in through a back door while the physics geeks were at a football match. The mind-numbingly powerful Atlas was capable of rendering data in an array of colors up to and including one color. One color --> LotR --> 16 million color.

2 -- Early photos of Tolkien are black and white. Well, that's a misnomer of course, because they actually contain a wide range of colors spanning the spectrum from gray to gray, rarely containing actual black or white. Photos from the end of his life are generally in what the natives of the time laughingly called "full colour" because they of course had not yet discovered the really big box of crayons.

I assume that as Tolkien progressed through LotR he found need for more and more colours, and so he created them. To keep these new colours from seeming out of place he would first leak them to the BBC, who would subtly integrate them into our societal consciousness. The BBC of course is a bit sluggish and behind, and is still getting the job sorted, so it's not quite finished. That's why you're just now being acclimatized to seeing Rune Keepers in gold-trimmed purple bathrobes. It will all fit together once the last of the pieces are shaken free.

[Silchas]

Tolkien also did a number of very nice watercolors of Middle Earth and scenes from the books. But being watercolors the palette was fairly pastel and limited, so I don't think they are much of a guide. (Although, I can now see that just opens a door for more yelling about lore-breaking: The colors don't match Tolkien's paintings!!!!)

[Mithithil]

The Prof specified colours at times, and also specified when equipment looked used and worn, if cared for. This latter element has been overlooked by the artists who collectively seem to get their armour views from the SCA's more "showy" elements.

[djheydt]

not sure what you mean about those flashy bright colors. Most ppl seem to think LOTRO uses a fairly water-colory, naturalistic palette compared to things like WoW, etc...

Ceorai, you have taken the words right out of my mouth. So far is the water-color look of this world from shiny, it's matte, like tempera.

[JohnFoam]

This is actually a complicated issue! I sympathize with the original poster's implied position on the subject of color. I prefer, for example, the iconic Alan Lee watercolor look as there is a sort of ancient, remote look there that for me resonates with the ancientness of the stories. Technically, watercolors don't necessarily have to have that desaturated look, but they often do.

But there are many elements of the design in this game and they all have their own issues to address. I feel that for the most part, with few exceptions, the environment of the game, including the NPCs, is ok (the Foundations of Stone in Moria is one glaring exception), and this goes a long way.
Monsters sometimes push the envelope for me. Sometimes they are naturalistic, sometimes not as much. For example, the various colors of orcs seem wrong. To me Tolkien seemed to have envisioned pale and dark orcs, but not so much bluish, greenish, reddish, purplish kinds. . But they're not quite WoW-colored, so it's borderline for my taste. Where I really hate the coloration is in the fell spirits. Cotton Candy in Fornost just breaks the mood.
As far as dye colors and how players dress, I prefer to have as many dye and cosmetic outfit options as possible even if it means some players offend my taste.

But one of the key points is how to present information to the players because this is a game and to play it effectively you have to be able to recognize and respond to a lot of information quickly, especially in combat. And one proven way to accomplish this is through color coding, and for color coding to be easily effective, it has to stand out somewhat from the environment, which obviously suggests bright, saturated, easily noticed colors. I do feel that in this area the design team has often and especially lately taken the easy way out, compromising somewhat the iconic "classic" Tolkien feeling through the use of bright flashy color elements and "gamey" effects with less effort to seat them into the overall aesthetic. Understandable? Yes, but unavoidable? Certainly not, in my opinion.

It is possible to somewhat mitigate the overall look with how you adjust your graphics settings, particularly the ambient light, brightness, contrast, gamma, and bloom-related settings. I used to run with a dimmer, more muted look but lately have things more vibrant and contrasty. Unfortunately there is no saturation slider; I would love to have that to play with.

[Silchas]

This is actually a complicated issue! I sympathize with the original poster's implied position on the subject of color. I prefer, for example, the iconic Alan Lee watercolor look as there is a sort of ancient, remote look there that for me resonates with the ancientness of the stories. Technically, watercolors don't necessarily have to have that desaturated look, but they often do.

But there are many elements of the design in this game and they all have their own issues to address. I feel that for the most part, with few exceptions, the environment of the game, including the NPCs, is ok (the Foundations of Stone in Moria is one glaring exception), and this goes a long way.
Monsters sometimes push the envelope for me. Sometimes they are naturalistic, sometimes not as much. For example, the various colors of orcs seem wrong. To me Tolkien seemed to have envisioned pale and dark orcs, but not so much bluish, greenish, reddish, purplish kinds. . But they're not quite WoW-colored, so it's borderline for my taste. Where I really hate the coloration is in the fell spirits. Cotton Candy in Fornost just breaks the mood.
As far as dye colors and how players dress, I prefer to have as many dye and cosmetic outfit options as possible even if it means some players offend my taste.

But one of the key points is how to present information to the players because this is a game and to play it effectively you have to be able to recognize and respond to a lot of information quickly, especially in combat. And one proven way to accomplish this is through color coding, and for color coding to be easily effective, it has to stand out somewhat from the environment, which obviously suggests bright, saturated, easily noticed colors. I do feel that in this area the design team has often and especially lately taken the easy way out, compromising somewhat the iconic "classic" Tolkien feeling through the use of bright flashy color elements and "gamey" effects with less effort to seat them into the overall aesthetic. Understandable? Yes, but unavoidable? Certainly not, in my opinion.

It is possible to somewhat mitigate the overall look with how you adjust your graphics settings, particularly the ambient light, brightness, contrast, gamma, and bloom-related settings. I used to run with a dimmer, more muted look but lately have things more vibrant and contrasty. Unfortunately there is no saturation slider; I would love to have that to play with.

Nice post I am giving you rep for a well thought out response.

[djheydt]

The Prof specified colours at times, and also specified when equipment looked used and worn, if cared for. This latter element has been overlooked by the artists who collectively seem to get their armour views from the SCA's more "showy" elements.

Ahem, there are many in the SCA who go for natural colors. (Particularly in the West Kingdom. ) That said, take a look at a Book of Hours sometime. Plenty of vivid colors --- but in fabric dyes, those either cost an arm and a leg, or faded quickly, or both. Unless you were rich enough to get yourself portrayed in Les Tres Riches Heures, you didn't get to wear bright colors -- though I've seen an astonishing display of ten or fifteen shades of purple and lavender, all dyed with lichen.

Meanwhile, here's a bit of Tolkien about colors:

To the left stood a great mound, covered with a sward of grass as green as Spring-time in the Elder days. Upon it, as a double crown, grew two circles of trees; the outer had bark of snowy white, and were leafless but beautiful in their shapely nakedness; the inner were mallorn-trees of great height, still arrayed in pale gold. High amid the branches of the towering tree that stood in the centre of all these gleamed a white flet. At the feet of the trees, and all about the green hillsides was studded with small golden flowers shaped like stars,. Among them, nodding on slender stalks, were other flowers, white and palest green; they glimmered as a mist amid the rich hue of the grass. Over all the sky was blue, and the sun of afternoon glowed upon the hill and cast long green shadows beneath the trees ....

....All that [Frodo] saw was shapely. but the shape seemed at once clear cut, as if they had been first conceived and drawn at the uncovering of his eyes, and ancient as if they had endured for ever. He saw no colour but those he knew, gold and white and blue and green, but they were fresh and poignant, as if he had at that moment first perceived them and made for them names new and wonderful.

Now, Tolkien is renowned for the clarity of his style. Note that like them who shaped Lorien, he uses only a few colors -- gold and white and blue and green. But look what he does with them.

[Marguerita]

Ceorai, you have taken the words right out of my mouth. So far is the water-color look of this world from shiny, it's matte, like tempera.

I agree totally and i should have made my post clearer but with all my apologize my words did not met my thoughts.

As i said a little further while attempting to be more clear, is that i was not referencing to the world itself, but to something which for me dont match well how the world is coloured : bright horses, bright dresses, bright armors (not say flashy... one little more and during the night you will see horses even with no moon).

As for Middle-Earth itself, when you travel through it, the palette of coulours are incredible and wonderful, going from the pales one to the warm ones. And i would not change anything

But again i am in trouble with some of the new colours for items, outfit, horses (not the horse itself but the garnment). The first in Lotro where amazing, today i just wonder if the goal is to make those more and more brilliant, clinquant.

But we need for all tastes, i know.


But to stay on my topic : as an exemple if i am not wrong ..

In that time the fleets of the Númenóreans darkened the sea upon the west of the land, and they were like an archipelago of a thousand isles; their masts were as a forest upon the mountains, and their sails like a brooding cloud; and their banners were golden and black. Akkalabeth.

Also Tolkien created/used Elves Heraldry, and more ... and none of those are as colourful as the last items in game.

I think i will have to read more and more in the next days to find my answer for the Colours of Gondor, Rohan, and more.

Thank you

[Hoppa_Joel]

Well to all of you Lore knowledgeable i have a question.

As Tolkien envisionned almost everything in his Books, did he said anything about the colours that should fit in it ?

Did he really wrote about having those flashy bright colours actually in the game ?

Just beeing curious

I agree, that colours should be muted and not as bright, or at least give us a "washed" faded set, and a Dirty colour set to go along with the neon brights we already got.


Tolkien did talk about Colours being bright, Tom Bombadils Bight blue coat and Yellow boots,
The Dwarves cloaks in The Hobbit, at Bilbo's house, and so on.

But there was never any mention of " The colour was so bright your eyes bled" heheh

I think we need some more dyes, a muted darker set, and a faded lighter set.

[Marguerita]

This is actually a complicated issue! I sympathize with the original poster's implied position on the subject of color. I prefer, for example, the iconic Alan Lee watercolor look as there is a sort of ancient, remote look there that for me resonates with the ancientness of the stories. Technically, watercolors don't necessarily have to have that desaturated look, but they often do.

But there are many elements of the design in this game and they all have their own issues to address. I feel that for the most part, with few exceptions, the environment of the game, including the NPCs, is ok (the Foundations of Stone in Moria is one glaring exception), and this goes a long way.
Monsters sometimes push the envelope for me. Sometimes they are naturalistic, sometimes not as much. For example, the various colors of orcs seem wrong. To me Tolkien seemed to have envisioned pale and dark orcs, but not so much bluish, greenish, reddish, purplish kinds. . But they're not quite WoW-colored, so it's borderline for my taste. Where I really hate the coloration is in the fell spirits. Cotton Candy in Fornost just breaks the mood.
As far as dye colors and how players dress, I prefer to have as many dye and cosmetic outfit options as possible even if it means some players offend my taste.

But one of the key points is how to present information to the players because this is a game and to play it effectively you have to be able to recognize and respond to a lot of information quickly, especially in combat. And one proven way to accomplish this is through color coding, and for color coding to be easily effective, it has to stand out somewhat from the environment, which obviously suggests bright, saturated, easily noticed colors. I do feel that in this area the design team has often and especially lately taken the easy way out, compromising somewhat the iconic "classic" Tolkien feeling through the use of bright flashy color elements and "gamey" effects with less effort to seat them into the overall aesthetic. Understandable? Yes, but unavoidable? Certainly not, in my opinion.

It is possible to somewhat mitigate the overall look with how you adjust your graphics settings, particularly the ambient light, brightness, contrast, gamma, and bloom-related settings. I used to run with a dimmer, more muted look but lately have things more vibrant and contrasty. Unfortunately there is no saturation slider; I would love to have that to play with.

Ahem, there are many in the SCA who go for natural colors. (Particularly in the West Kingdom. ) That said, take a look at a Book of Hours sometime. Plenty of vivid colors --- but in fabric dyes, those either cost an arm and a leg, or faded quickly, or both. Unless you were rich enough to get yourself portrayed in Les Tres Riches Heures, you didn't get to wear bright colors -- though I've seen an astonishing display of ten or fifteen shades of purple and lavender, all dyed with lichen.

Meanwhile, here's a bit of Tolkien about colors:



Now, Tolkien is renowned for the clarity of his style. Note that like them who shaped Lorien, he uses only a few colors -- gold and white and blue and green. But look what he does with them.

Thank you very much
+rep for both of you

[Berephon]

yes sorry i will try to add some more precision

I was more thinking about the last outfits and horses colours, and some pieces of armor.

Not the game palette itself which i love most

But lately i just interrogated myself about having some of those very bright colour in middle of a battle .... perfect target ...


But on a more lore related did he speak about Rohan colours, Gondor colours, Rivendell ....... their banners or all those in game are strictly invented by Turbine ...

The Lord of the Rings is a medieval fantasy...if you've seen actual medieval heradlry, armour, etc, you'll note that it can be quite vibrant and sometimes gaudy. The Knights of Dol Amroth were clearly described with bright colours, my impression of the Rohirrim, though green, was a vibrant heraldic green. We've been pretty good about maintaining a level of realism and lore-appropriateness in most of our colours, I think.

[djheydt]

The Lord of the Rings is a medieval fantasy...if you've seen actual medieval heradlry, armour, etc, you'll note that it can be quite vibrant and sometimes gaudy. The Knights of Dol Amroth were clearly described with bright colours, my impression of the Rohirrim, though green, was a vibrant heraldic green. We've been pretty good about maintaining a level of realism and lore-appropriateness in most of our colours, I think.

I think so too.

+ virtual doughnuts 'cause I can't give you rep.

[Laire]

I think what you have to realize with the festival outfits and horses is that they are *not* made for war, but rather festivals. Their gaudiness fits a festive attitude.

I think some of them go too far (or are outright hideous-- I'm looking at you, Anniversary Steed), but they fit the atmosphere of festivals.

Other horses, such as the Rohan steeds or the Minas Ithil steed, fit the two-three color schemes of one or two bright colors and one neutral color. The only exception in historical terms seemed to be black/white combinations, but those are so opposite one another that it does not matter that they are both neutral colors.

In canon, the colors of Gondor are sable (which is black in heraldry) and white; Dol Amroth's colors are a dark blue and white (or silver was sometimes used... I believe their swan was silver, though I am not completely sure. Gondor may have used silver instead of white sometimes too, I'd imagine); Rohan's are green and white.

For historical heraldry, here is an example from 15th century Germany. The old English coat of arms were also often very colorful- lots of red, gold, and blue.

Of course, when it comes to clothing historically, some dyes were very expensive to make (such as purple, where the association with royalty comes from). So the dyes that we have ingame would not be as wide spread among the peasantry in Middle-earth. I imagine Elves would have all dyes down to an art, but amongst Men it was likely a more limited pallet with the peasants.

[Silchas]

I'm looking at you, Anniversary Steed.

Hey, how often do you get a wedding cake you can ride? Show some love!

[Marguerita]

The Lord of the Rings is a medieval fantasy...if you've seen actual medieval heradlry, armour, etc, you'll note that it can be quite vibrant and sometimes gaudy. The Knights of Dol Amroth were clearly described with bright colours, my impression of the Rohirrim, though green, was a vibrant heraldic green. We've been pretty good about maintaining a level of realism and lore-appropriateness in most of our colours, I think.

Yes i agree BUT not on the last additions that are probably more Turbine choice (white, bright gold, and flashy blue :Anniversary items and horse, summer horse and i wait to see the new store horse too those makes me immediatly think of the store colour ... ).

And rather than Vibrant (vibrant color for me means pure, bright, high chroma color) i would have choosen Warm, deep colours, giving more density to the colour and less brightness.

But again its me and i am not Turbine and initially my question was more a curiosity concerning Tolkien and his overview with colours than a diatrib against Turbine (even if Turbine pushed me to ask the question )

-------------
Thank you to those answering me with lore reference, i love really that and push me to go back read the Books again
+rep for Laire

[Hoppa_Joel]

http://www.straw.com/sig/dyehist.html

Here's a nice reference to give a person a historical idea on when and where certain dyes came into use.
Tolkien's "history" differs in many ways from our real world history, but this is interesting.

[djheydt]

Hey, how often do you get a wedding cake you can ride? Show some love!

Oh, heavens. There's a website showing lots of pictures of really terrible cakes, falling under the categories of

(a) ordinary cake, done by the bakery, which got the inscription Horribly Wrong.

(b) an ambitious cake, probably done by loving-hands-at-home, that comes out looking like ... well, the Anniversary Horse.

Unfortunately I seldom look at it and I disremember its name.

However, I can post this, a wedding cake made carefully according to the Lore of another mythos....

http://homepages.tesco.net/~janefisk.../discworld.htm

[Arbalister]

I had a really long winded answer to the question of the use of colours, but when I went looking for specific references...I found this site, complete with references to source material... So, I'll just shut up and present it as is. :-)