B/P/E partial mitigation changed ?

[Maelendil]

Before RoI, B/P/E partial mitigation was additive to the damage type mitigation. I.e. if you had 50% partial parry mitigation and 50% common damage mitigation, every partial parry of a common blow would show "absorbed" above your toon, and a log line which said something like "has partially parried.".

When testing the feel of the new S&B against landscape mobs yesterday, I always took damage on partials even thought I has the same setup as before the server went down, with more than 55% partial parry mitigation and more than 45% common mitigation.

Has anyone else noticed this ? I don't want to rush and cry "wolf" as I only had a few moments to play and I was beginning the new epic line and the new zone, but I would love to have some independent confirmation.

[Bubmo]

Are you 100% sure you are correct about how it was setup pre RoI? That sounds really shady to me. I've always had the understanding that mitigation took away a percentage of the damage that you would have otherwise taken. After all, that is basically the definition of the word.

If this was changed and not announced, it would be a low blow from Turbine. But yeah, I'm not going to scream nerf on the first day when I don't know the facts. I will still welcome the change simply because common sense will tell you that it should not be additive.

[Maelendil]

My logs are in french, but the general idea is easy to get from reading the numbers. (pre-RoI) Here is a partial which completely absorbed damage:

L' Gortheron a marqué un coup partiellement bloqué avec attaque au corps à corps intermédiaire sur le My_secret_guard.

The line says "partially blocked", but shows no damage. My stats were around 50% for both common mitigation and partial block mitigation, with a sum above 100%.

Similarly, when the minstrel wasn't using the armor buff, the partial block is not completely absorbed, giving some damage (the sum is slightly below 100%):

Gortheron a marqué un coup partiellement bloqué avec attaque au corps à corps forte sur le My_secret_guard pour 6 Commun de dégâts à Moral.

That's a blow of 6 common damage, which should be compared to the 1k damage without a B/P/E event for the same skill:

Gortheron a marqué un coup avec attaque au corps à corps forte sur le My_secret_guard pour 1,066 Commun de dégâts à Moral.

My log shows a range from 908 to 1,160 for this attack. With values around 50% for both mitigations, a multiplicative system yields a partial block value which around half of what you get with a full blow (as the armor mitigation always applies). With an additive system you only get very small hits if the sum is under 100%, and none if you are above. So yes, I am quite confident that we used to be in an additive system. The question is, did this change along with the changes to melee defense vs. physical mitigation ?

[MordecaiKell]

Just a stupid question, are you fighting on level mobs?

The percentage value are against same level as you, and normal procedure after an update is to go to the new area... with mobs a couple (or more) levels above you.

After more than one year at level cap it is easy to overlook the fact that mobs are now higher level

[Maelendil]

I just checked IG to make sure that I was fighting lvl 65 mobs. It really looks like we switched from additive to multiplicative, which is a subtle and silent negative change for tanks.

[CrusaderOfMetal]

Well, another passive and stealthy nerf, as if we aren't used to them already!
It just AMAZES me how much information people "forget" to mention.

[Graalx2]

Partial mitigation will no longer add to regular mitigation. Instead it will be multiplicative. 100 damage 60% mitigation + 50% partial mitigation = 100*(1-.6)*(1-.5) = 20 damage.

The reason behind this change is to prevent players from becoming immune to monsters with the increased mitigation and BPE rates available in Isengard.

The reason this isn't in the patch notes is that it would cause more confusion than clarification. Many players assume that is the way it always worked. Only those really into the math knew that partial mitigation was additive. I felt that a forum post in the Guardian or Warden forum would get out the knowledge for those who are interested.

[Thane9]

Partial mitigation will no longer add to regular mitigation. Instead it will be multiplicative. 100 damage 60% mitigation + 50% partial mitigation = 100*(1-.6)*(1-.5) = 20 damage.

The reason behind this change is to prevent players from becoming immune to monsters with the increased mitigation and BPE rates available in Isengard.

The reason this isn't in the patch notes is that it would cause more confusion than clarification. Many players assume that is the way it always worked. Only those really into the math knew that partial mitigation was additive. I felt that a forum post in the Guardian or Warden forum would get out the knowledge for those who are interested.

Thank you. This is good to know.

[Maelendil]

Thank you for the clarification. Another detail on partial B/P/E mitigation: the base to compute the partial mitigation values are still 20% flat value + block percentage (capped at 15% + various additional percentages from relics, traits and stance?

I mean, someone without any relic, trait or stance and a base chance of 18% block would still have a partial mitigation on blocks of 35% ?

[FormulaTroll]

I can't say I won't miss those happy little "Absorbed" clouds gently lifting skyward from my hobbit frame, but I do thank you for promptly coming forward with the information instead of letting us bicker back and forth about it for weeks with no input.

[MithrilMonster]

Partial mitigation will no longer add to regular mitigation. Instead it will be multiplicative. 100 damage 60% mitigation + 50% partial mitigation = 100*(1-.6)*(1-.5) = 20 damage.

The reason behind this change is to prevent players from becoming immune to monsters with the increased mitigation and BPE rates available in Isengard.

The reason this isn't in the patch notes is that it would cause more confusion than clarification. Many players assume that is the way it always worked. Only those really into the math knew that partial mitigation was additive. I felt that a forum post in the Guardian or Warden forum would get out the knowledge for those who are interested.

Graalx2, thanks for finally breaking your silence on the guardian forums after over a year.

Too bad its to confirm a nerf rather than something positive. Lets start off on a better foot, shall we?

[Walhalla_EU]

First of all welcome to the guardian forum.

I do find it unfortunate though that by your admission this is done to counter the option of ending up unhittable (ergo the same reason why guardians got shafted BPE wise from SoA to MoM) while in essence the finesse mechanic already accomplishes this. And honestly who cares is guardians can become powerhouses in non instance gameplay, which is the place where this matters, wardens are it already due to their selfheals in those zones.

So knowing this, why did you smack the tanks double by changing this mechanic?

[MorliX]

How many different players told me to stuff it when I was worried this expansion was really a nerf for us relative to other "tanks" ?

Any other tidbits big G?

[Huricanado]

Damage built guardians like myself are not quite as effected by this as some of you, so i don't have much to add to this discussion. I just want to express my appreciation of the fact that Graalx2 is reading our discussions and clarifying things for us. I love doing the math and knowing how things work, so please keep it coming, as least when we are asking for it like in this thread.

[AwerthThawre]

My figures are much the same now sit on 23% block with 11.6% partial which except for the extra 3% from the upgrade of the cap is the same as pre RoI

[auximenes]

Thanks Graalx2, I really appreciate seeing the inner-workings of the system. I think after the initial chaos of the expansion subsides, the players would enjoy some small Diaries covering these 'invisible' changes.

[Yogol]

Partial mitigation will no longer add to regular mitigation. Instead it will be multiplicative. 100 damage 60% mitigation + 50% partial mitigation = 100*(1-.6)*(1-.5) = 20 damage.

Euh...

Does this means that Partial mitigation and mitigation are euqlly important ?

Because when using that formula, the damage that you get is the same when you have (say) 70% mitigation and 20% partial mitigation or when you have 20% mitigation and 70% partial mitigation

100 * (1-0.70) * (1-0.20) = 100 * (1-0.20) * (1-0.70) = 0.24

[socom33]

Euh...

Does this means that Partial mitigation and mitigation are euqlly important ?

Because when using that formula, the damage that you get is the same when you have (say) 70% mitigation and 20% partial mitigation or when you have 20% mitigation and 70% partial mitigation

100 * (1-0.70) * (1-0.20) = 100 * (1-0.20) * (1-0.70) = 0.24

Individual partial avoidance mitigation is useable ~10% of the time and mitigation is usable ~50% of the time, so mitigation is more important unless the partial mitigation bonus is 5x stronger.

[Evendale]

And ... more bad news for Wardens.

[Dean340]

Partial mitigation will no longer add to regular mitigation. Instead it will be multiplicative. 100 damage 60% mitigation + 50% partial mitigation = 100*(1-.6)*(1-.5) = 20 damage.

The reason behind this change is to prevent players from becoming immune to monsters with the increased mitigation and BPE rates available in Isengard.

The reason this isn't in the patch notes is that it would cause more confusion than clarification. Many players assume that is the way it always worked. Only those really into the math knew that partial mitigation was additive. I felt that a forum post in the Guardian or Warden forum would get out the knowledge for those who are interested.

no more "absorbed" floaties? darn

[Brastin]

Partial mitigation will no longer add to regular mitigation. Instead it will be multiplicative. 100 damage 60% mitigation + 50% partial mitigation = 100*(1-.6)*(1-.5) = 20 damage.

The reason behind this change is to prevent players from becoming immune to monsters with the increased mitigation and BPE rates available in Isengard.

The reason this isn't in the patch notes is that it would cause more confusion than clarification. Many players assume that is the way it always worked. Only those really into the math knew that partial mitigation was additive. I felt that a forum post in the Guardian or Warden forum would get out the knowledge for those who are interested.

Welcome back to the Guardian server with again bad news for guardians. My question is how is the future of the guardian in ur eyes GraalX2? Is it going to be the same old things like after seeing that our duty is taking over by other tanks and still say guards are good as they are now? Or are u actually seeing us in the future getting a secondary role where we guardians are finally back NEEDED? Hope u give us guardians a good response on that and i think u forgot to response on the petition thread where many guardians are still waiting for ur answer.

Greetz Brastin

[Alad.]

no more "absorbed" floaties? darn

I think you'll see the absorbed message if you have an item which deducts a fixed amount of damage and the hit you get is smaller.


As for multiplicative versus additive, it makes sense for it to be multiplicative since the 2 decisions occur at different stages. First you decide if the hit was avoided (partially or totally), and if it landed or was partially avoided, you mitigate it.


And regarding partial avoidance, I wonder if Graalx can tell us something about partial resistance? (a reduction of tactical damage, before the tactical mitigaton stage). When will it be implemented for the tactical attack mechanic to become equivalent to the physical one?

What about crits on the defence side? Critical Avoidance and Critical Resistance? Where you not only 100% avoid or resist but you do something devastating to the attacker simultaneously, like stun them, start a fellowship manoeuvre, or reflect their damage (amplified?) back to them.