Does anyone else feel bad about killing Draigoch?

[BIZL]

First off, this may contain spoilers!

Our kin has tried for a couple of weeks to take down the mighty dragon and after learning the fight and battling the fight-ending-bugs we finally got him down.

As I stood there /rolling on all the wonderful lootz I looked up into the half-lidded eyes of this mighty dragon and wondered "why?"

According to the quests that got us there:

Saruman is growing in power by the day... We simply do not have the power to stand against him, but I believe I have found a way... I found a weapon. If there are more to be found, then we might be able to stand against the Wizard... Head into the eastern hills of Thrór's Coomb and seek out this cave. If you find it, venture within and see if you find the weapons and armour you seek.

So Saruman is powerful, we need better weapons, this dragon has better weapons, kill the dragon and take his weapons!

To me, this seems like a very out of character thing for us to do... I can't recall another instance in this game where we went out to kill something just for loot.

Perhaps there isn't enough back story to vilify this dragon. If he was going around desolating villages or doing something other than sitting in his cave atop his pile of gold I might be less sorry for killing him.

I was hoping at the end of the fight to see him fly out through a hole in the roof or something. Am I alone in this?

[lynnkitty]

You are not alone. I was hoping he could escape from his lair, but he didn‘t make it...

[CFury]

No. I get fried at least 6 times each time I run downstairs, I can never find my way in his maze and it takes over an hour to kill him. And he is ugly.
I am glad when he dies.

[RP4Ever]

As much as I'm normally against killing such a noble creature as a dragon.... you could consider where he /got/ that pile of gold and weapons and jewels he's sitting on top of.

We may not have seen, or been told, that he'd pillaged and burned and razed villages, but the evidence is there in his cave. Yes?

[RedLancer]

Although I haven't done the Draigoch raid yet, I can say that there really isn't a reason to feel sorry for the dragon. According to lore, the wingless drakes & the later winged dragons were all created by Morgoth. As such, they are all innately evil. I do not recall even a single instance of a good dragon ever existing in Middle-earth.

[harman097]

What about good giant turtles?

No way those aren't in the lore somewhere.

[Zetsubousensei]

Dragons are Melkor's creations and as such, irredeemably evil every single one of them. That's how it rolls in Middle-Earth.

[jwbarry]

First off, this may contain spoilers!

Our kin has tried for a couple of weeks to take down the mighty dragon and after learning the fight and battling the fight-ending-bugs we finally got him down.

As I stood there /rolling on all the wonderful lootz I looked up into the half-lidded eyes of this mighty dragon and wondered "why?"

According to the quests that got us there:



So Saruman is powerful, we need better weapons, this dragon has better weapons, kill the dragon and take his weapons!

To me, this seems like a very out of character thing for us to do... I can't recall another instance in this game where we went out to kill something just for loot.

Perhaps there isn't enough back story to vilify this dragon. If he was going around desolating villages or doing something other than sitting in his cave atop his pile of gold I might be less sorry for killing him.

I was hoping at the end of the fight to see him fly out through a hole in the roof or something. Am I alone in this?

You're adding a bit of your knowledge from having done the quest line into what the NPC knows.

As you stated, the NPC says...

Saruman is growing in power by the day... We simply do not have the power to stand against him, but I believe I have found a way... I found a weapon. If there are more to be found, then we might be able to stand against the Wizard... Head into the eastern hills of Thrór's Coomb and seek out this cave. If you find it, venture within and see if you find the weapons and armour you seek.

That's the extent of it. The NPC doesn't actually know if the weapons are even there nor if there is anyone or anything guarding them. The NPC doesn't even know Draigoch exists at this point. That was done very intentionally and expressly. Nar gives a hint, but who listens to crazy old dwarves anyway? The real first in-game mention of Draigoch is once you actually get inside his lair.

Once inside Draigoch encourages you to come and take whatever you like. Then he attacks you for trying to steal his stuff.

Dragons are evil creatures and you have stepped within his web and now he's going to play a game with you, like cats play with mice. Only problem for him is that he's done a bit of misunderestimating.

[Keirion]

Dragons are evil creatures and you have stepped within his web and now he's going to play a game with you, like cats play with mice. Only problem for him is that he's done a bit of misunderestimating.

Because for some reason you happened to step into his web with 11-23 other highly trained adventurers... now if you were truly self centered and just going for loot, you would have gone by yourself, because then you wouldn't have to share the weapon (loot) with anyone else!

[Estranger]

I feel bad about having to kill 180 toes. (5 toes per foot, four feet per round, 2 FM's per round, between 8 and 9 rounds).

Is there any possibility of Nar coming in and say, magically shortening stages 1 and 2 by maybe a combined 30 minutes?

In T2 maybe we could get up to 4 FM's off per round and make it so getting the 12th FM off kicks off stage 3?

[Crell_1]

Because for some reason you happened to step into his web with 11-23 other highly trained adventurers... now if you were truly self centered and just going for loot, you would have gone by yourself, because then you wouldn't have to share the weapon (loot) with anyone else!

You mean to tell me you didnt try to go in and poke around yourself first like any good adventurer? Being a seasoned adventurer, you'd hear the dragon, know it's evil and tricky, and go to get your friends to slay the beast!

[matziq]

I feel bad about having to kill 180 toes. (5 toes per foot, four feet per round, 2 FM's per round, between 8 and 9 rounds).

Is there any possibility of Nar coming in and say, magically shortening stages 1 and 2 by maybe a combined 30 minutes?

In T2 maybe we could get up to 4 FM's off per round and make it so getting the 12th FM off kicks off stage 3?

This is precisely the reason I decline all invites to do this raid. :|

[Hurin]

Dragons are inherently evil. They were created by Morgoth himself. They are irredeemably malevolent.

Folks here have been watching too much Animal Planet.

(fun thread though)

[Mysterion]

I feel bad about having to kill 180 toes. (5 toes per foot, four feet per round, 2 FM's per round, between 8 and 9 rounds).

Is there any possibility of Nar coming in and say, magically shortening stages 1 and 2 by maybe a combined 30 minutes?

In T2 maybe we could get up to 4 FM's off per round and make it so getting the 12th FM off kicks off stage 3?

I agree, it is awfully repetitive and boring. We get it, now lets do half of that, or may be less. I like the checkpoint after everyone gets in the pit though. +rep

[BIZL]

Well thank you to everyone for informing me on this subject. I must admit that I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the lore so now that I know that dragons are inherently evil I feel much better about my conquests...

[dietlbomb]

I won't feel bad. So far the score is Draigoch 2, Maedhric 0. We're not even yet!

[Thane9]

Dragons are evil creatures and you have stepped within his web and now he's going to play a game with you, like cats play with mice. Only problem for him is that he's done a bit of misunderestimating.

THIS!

QFT.

No mercy for dragons. Maybe in today's fantasy realm of Drizzt the good dark elf we can imagine a sympathetic cause for a dragon, but the fact is Draigoch got all that loot by killing hundreds if not thousands of innocents.

It's one of the nice things about LotR. Aside the Gollum issue (which is explained because Gollum is NOT a monster, he's tainted by The Ring) monsters are just that, monsterous. They are evil. They are created by evil for evil purpose. They don't harmonize with the song of creation.

So it's fair game on the dragon as far as I'm concerned.

[matziq]

You know he's not real, right?

[Macfeast]

You know he's not real, right?

Does that matter? People feel sad/happy/angry/practically-every-kind-of-emotion about movie-characters on a regular basis. Why shouldn't it apply here, too?

[AkhorahilEvernight]

To me, this seems like a very out of character thing for us to do... I can't recall another instance in this game where we went out to kill something just for loot.

(I was just about to say that it seems a bit un-Tolkien-ish, but then I remembered that that's pretty much what the Dwarves in The Hobbit do...)

Something else that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is waging genocide on Dunlendings (Dunland) and, especially, Gauredain (Forochel) for the Slayer deeds. The Dunlendings, while allied with Evil, have a legitimate, centuries-long grievance, and the Gauredain aren't guilty of anything beyond being a bit violent and primitive. Neither seems Always Chaotic Evil.

Tolkien wouldn't have approved.

[ThePuzzler]

(I was just about to say that it seems a bit un-Tolkien-ish, but then I remembered that that's pretty much what the Dwarves in The Hobbit do...)

Something else that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is waging genocide on Dunlendings (Dunland) and, especially, Gauredain (Forochel) for the Slayer deeds. The Dunlendings, while allied with Evil, have a legitimate, centuries-long grievance, and the Gauredain aren't guilty of anything beyond being a bit violent and primitive. Neither seems Always Chaotic Evil.

Tolkien wouldn't have approved.

The elves in Evendim shared your thoughts on the Gauredain, but after sending you to retrieve some of their primitive belongings, they are shocked to find that they are worshipers of (if I remember correct) some dark power, and that they are poisoning Evendim. Even then, they just trick them into staying away, and don't fight them any more.

In Forochel, the Lossoth and the Gauredain have been at war for ages, with the Gauredain repeatedly pushing farther into Lossoth territory and attacking the homesteads that outly several cities. Besides that, they repeatedly ally themselves with Angmarim.

As for Dunlendings, you are only facing 2 of their clans mainly, the Dragon and the Ox. The Dragon clan [spoiler] destroys Trum Dreng and attacks any of their kinsmen they see just for money or sport AND they repeatedly attack the Rohirrim for Isengard. The Ox clan has allied themselves with Isengard and enthralls the people of Galtrev as well as the remnants of the Boar Clan. The only time you face people outside of these two clans is when the [SPOILER ALERT] Falcon clan betrays you, slaughters your ranger friends, and sends you as a prisoner to Isengard.

So, if you ask me, I say we've got significant reason to kill these guys.

[Elderban]

Rain Draigoch the other night, it was nice but repetitive. Attack foot, run, attack foot, run, attack foot, run, attack foot, run to middle, attack chest, rinse, repeat, while one group tries to get off 12 FM's. And that's pretty much the whole fight. It never changes.

That's what I don't like about instances like this in LOTRO. The fight is the same every time. There's no variance. No change. No different way to do it. Once you figure out the "pattern" of the instance, it instantly turns into a grind. It's like playing Dragons Lair (possibly literally in this sense), move your character toward the blinking platform, hit the fire button. As long as you get the pattern down, you'll get the loot.

[Nosdracir]

(I was just about to say that it seems a bit un-Tolkien-ish, but then I remembered that that's pretty much what the Dwarves in The Hobbit do...)
.

In The Hobbit, Thorin and company are out to destroy Smaug because he drove them out of their home (Erebor) and took their treasure. Clearly a case of good seeking justice against evil.

[AkhorahilEvernight]

In The Hobbit, Thorin and company are out to destroy Smaug because he drove them out of their home (Erebor) and took their treasure. Clearly a case of good seeking justice against evil.

I'm not saying it's not an OK cause, but the dwarves are clearly there for the phat loot. (Gandalf's plan is a lot more important, of course - he doesn't care about teh gold, but he does want Smaug dead and a functioning Man-Dwarf-Elf northern axis.)

Going to war over shiny things is standard operating practice in Middle-Earth: Elves in the first age (repeatedly), Dwarves in the first age, Dwarves in The Hobbit...

[AkhorahilEvernight]

So, if you ask me, I say we've got significant reason to kill these guys.

I think there's a difference between doing the quests that oppose them, and walking into their lands and massacring hundreds of them randomly just for the principle of the thing (and getting rewarded with increased Virtues, just to put icing on the (already morally suspect) cake).