What can and what can we not talk about?

[StavroMuellerBeta]

Calling someone a troll is name calling and a violation of the community guidelines. Remember, if asked to enforce the rules and investigate a thread, we investigate the ENTIRE thread and all posts by all parties.

Also, disagreeing is not trolling. If someone has a different opinion, and they present that opinion in a constructive manner, they are contributing to the discussion, and should be respected as such. Similarly, TOS/COC violations should not be overlooked or supported simply because you agree with the overall message or opinion of the poster.

In far too many threads, I've seen many valid viewpoints get shot down simply because they don't follow the general consensus. Far too many otherwise constructive threads have been locked simply because a few individuals decided to attack others for holding different opinions. If we want the devs to take us seriously, a well-rounded and respectful discussion is far more likely to get noticed than fifty pages of "no you're a troll because I haven't yet encountered this particular issue".

[Vilanthir]

1. If you find yourself spending a good amount of time attempting to rewrite your post/response in a manner that will squeak by the moderators, you might just be headed in the wrong direction.
2. If you have to resort to utilizing symbols and special characters to get past the filters, you might just be headed in the wrong direction.
3. If you link to a site that permits uncensored flaming rather than present a plausible intelligent well respected argument, you might just be headed in the wrong direction.
4. If you utilize the slang terms of Fanboi, newbs, care bears and the like, you might just be headed in the wrong direction.
5. Any thread that starts with "My other thread was closed" is an indication that you might just be headed in the wrong direction.
6. Insulting someone for voicing an arbitrary opinion in an intelligent manner.
7. Go Play WoW is another way of simply spewing trash. That and the new found constant lamentations on how SWTOR will kill this game utilized for every argument to change this game.

A good wordsmith can cut down anyone and even get positive rep from someone opposing their opinion if they demonstrate an intelligent argument. No one needs to resort to trash talk and profanity to get their point across.

You do have a point. But we need a place where we can complain about the game. Complains usually are not polite and cause a lot of 1x1 fights between the people complaining and people defending Turbine. Of course you don't need to insult people.

Maybe another forum, a site specific for that, I don't know. I'm sure Turbine want to hear the unhappy customers, so they can try to solve some issues and keep those players around. It's better for Turbine that players point problems and asks for solutions than just leaving the game.

[Cindir]

What you can't do is come in and rant about it. Or demand that it be fixed instantly - basically because that's never going to happen. No one here can fix the issue, instantly. But if you want to post and explain the problem, there's no rule that says you can't, as long as you do so under the terms of the Code of Conduct.

There is also no rule that says you can not "come in and rant about it. Or demand that it be fixed instantly".

The text quoted above (saying you can't do this) is completely wrong. Yes you can "come in an rant about" a problem, even if certain forum members don't like it unless it is positive enough (or should I unless you just happily and positively "post and explain the problem").

Sorry, Arbalister, but *you* cannot decide what type of posts are allowed, or say that posts with criticism only is not allowed. In some cases, or in some opinions, things are not right and should be fixed immediately. Yes, you *can* post that you think things should be fixed right away. All opinions are valid.

I agree that you have to follow the COC.

[Vilanthir]

There is also no rule that says you can not "come in and rant about it. Or demand that it be fixed instantly".

The text quoted above (saying you can't do this) is completely wrong. Yes you can "come in an rant about" a problem, even if certain forum members don't like it unless it is positive enough (or should I unless you just happily and positively "post and explain the problem").

Sorry, Arbalister, but *you* cannot decide what type of posts are allowed, or say that posts with criticism only is not allowed. In some cases, or in some opinions, things are not right and should be fixed immediately. Yes, you *can* post that you think things should be fixed right away. All opinions are valid.

I agree that you have to follow the COC.

Well said.

[mjk47]

"BrianDavion Ninja looted the epic shard of narsiel from the raid! he's bad! shun him!"

/reported

[Sapience]

You do have a point. But we need a place where we can complain about the game. Complains usually are not polite and cause a lot of 1x1 fights between the people complaining and people defending Turbine. Of course you don't need to insult people.

Maybe another forum, a site specific for that, I don't know. I'm sure Turbine want to hear the unhappy customers, so they can try to solve some issues and keep those players around. It's better for Turbine that players point problems and asks for solutions than just leaving the game.

There is no rule against, and no one has ever been infracted or banned for complaining. What usually happens is they choose to complain in a manner that violates the community guidelines, are warned and advised to find a better approach, then proceed to post in an even more inappropriate manner.

I disagree that complaints cannot be polite. In fact, a well written, well considered complaint is almost always more likely to be read, taken seriously, and considered than a poorly worded, contentious, and potentially insulting post. It's also far more likley to gather support and avoid the very trolling, name calling, and other issues that usually result in the thread being locked or removed.

There are certainly other places you could post, but none will get the same results as posting here where the team is watching and reading your comments; good and bad. The best advice would be to make sure your posting a considered message in the right place. Ask yourself when you're posting, "Do I want attention, or do I want my concerns addressed". Posting in the general forum will almost always get you the former, but posting an account issue in the account forum will get you the latter.

As Patience was always fond of saying, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it". It's good advice.

[Unixbomber]

As Patience was always fond of saying, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it". It's good advice.

Patience also said the "LOTRO Store will offer convenience, not advantage."

[Arbalister]

I agree that you have to follow the COC.

Which is entirely my point.

If someone posts a rant, full of wild accusations, veiled threats, and outright demands, they won't get banned instantly - unless they go right off the deep end. What *will* happen, though, is that the thread will fill up with like minded posts on both sides of the issue, and the thread will end up being locked, and there will likely be infractions handed out. By the same token, coming in, stating an issue calmly, and then discussing it rationally will get read, will likely get helpful suggestions, and has a far better chance of making it into the hands of someone that can actually do something about it.

Perhaps "rant" is too mild a word, but I'd expected that people would understand my meaning.

[djheydt]

I believe there is a FAQ about TOS and COC.

Other than that, my personal view is: if you wouldnt say to: your mother, father, pastor, priest, rabbi, imam, president, judge, teacher, friend, policeman, store clerk, banker, soldier or anyone you don't know, then I wouldn't post it here or in GLFF or in Raid chat, Kin chat, voice chat either.

YMMV

Well said; +rep.

[djheydt]

There are certain games that talking about are a no-no also.

Not quite a no-no, but certainly not a good idea.

Also not a good idea is to say, "Well, if you liked $OTHERGAME so much, why are you here and not still there?"

[whheydt]

As Patience was always fond of saying, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it". It's good advice.

And, as your own post points out, "where you say it."

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[Seedly]

How about an example of what Sapience was trying to get at instead of pointless mis-direction...

A complaint (Note: Post was in response to the last Anniversary Event, which had a large grind associated with it, and also in response to the OD token grind)

[BellusDuFenna]

Which is entirely my point.

If someone posts a rant, full of wild accusations, veiled threats, and outright demands, they won't get banned instantly - unless they go right off the deep end. What *will* happen, though, is that the thread will fill up with like minded posts on both sides of the issue, and the thread will end up being locked, and there will likely be infractions handed out. By the same token, coming in, stating an issue calmly, and then discussing it rationally will get read, will likely get helpful suggestions, and has a far better chance of making it into the hands of someone that can actually do something about it.

Perhaps "rant" is too mild a word, but I'd expected that people would understand my meaning.

True enough, but I have seen threads where someone posts a well-spoken complaint about the LOTRO service or Turbine, and because pro-Turbine posters came in and started baiting posters in that thread, the thread got closed, And because the thread had been closed, no further discussion on that topic could be had in a new thread, without breaking the Forum Rules.

This is why many people have moved to third-party forums to discuss LOTRO, and frankly, that's a shame. Players who follow the rules yet have a complaint about the game or Turbine itself should not have their valid discussions shut down because of pro-Turbine posters who turn the thread ugly by baiting other posters in the thread into arguments. And I'm not the only person who has seen this sort of activity go on here, I could name some names, but of course that would be against the rules. I still value my ability to join in on the Lotteries, so I'd prefer to keep my forum access, thank you very much!

But this is an issue, one that tarnishes these forums, and frankly makes it look like Turbine gives those pro-Turbine baiters a pass here, while punishing those who don't always post about LOTRO as if it is all unicorns, flowers and happiness here. I'm not saying that is the case, just that the impression of Turbine being biased towards those baiters is indeed out there.

Just saying.

(How's that for a polite complaint, Sapience?)

[Hurin]

You do have a point. But we need a place where we can complain about the game.

I "complain" about aspects of this game all the time. I started a long thread about radiance. I started a long thread about the increase in grinding (especially for "alt-o-holics"). I participated at length in a thread about how store-only relics should not exist. I also wrote post after post in a thread about the freezing out of Turbine Point users for pre-orders of RoI. I'd say over half the reputation I've gotten is for "anti-Turbine" posts. Those are just off the top of my head.

At no time have I ever felt substantially censored or that I would be blocked from being critical of the game (one infraction momentarily gave me pause, but in hindsight, I deserved it). However, please note that I don't simultaneously insult the intelligence (or competence) of those responsible for the aspects of the game I don't like. I also try to understand the valid reasons why the game is the way it is and why my personal perspective may not be the only valid one. Also, when I post criticizm, I don't automatically attribute nefarious motives to those who post in support of the status quo. So I don't tend to attack those defending them as paid shills for Turbine or (even more bizarrely), Turbine employees themselves posting on shill accounts.

If your goal is to make your valid, rationally expressed, and vitriol-free criticism heard, nobody is going to stand in your way on these forums, including Turbine. But if your goal is to spew anger and demand abject apologies for perceived wrongs, then this is not the proper forum (yet even these threads are allowed until the inevitable flame wars ensue due to the unsavory behavior that results on both "sides"). Just because Turbine provides forums where their users can interact does not mean that they have provided a venue for us to call them on the carpet and demand that they grovel at our feet for our business. That seems to be what a lot of people want out of these forums. Further, I get the sense a lot of people see Turbine as "authority" and develop a "fight the authority" or a "help! help! I'm being repressed" complex.

Turbine actually allows a lot of criticism on these forums. They hardly ever outright delete threads (instead, threads that get out of hand are locked so the criticism remains), and the thickness of their skin is usually commendable. Of course, someone who has regularly come in here with anti-Turbine flamethrowers baking everything in sight will read that and guffaw. But it's true nonetheless. I don't think I've ever seen a post deleted or a thread locked merely for criticizing Turbine on the merits of a game system or mechanic, or even for their business practices (even when the criticism is remarkably short-sighted or unfair). But I have seen people with giant chips on their shoulders begin threads filled with hyperbole, insults, and general malevolence who are then confronted by people who find such behavior unsavory. . . and then those threads do tend to get locked. So the lesson is. . . even if you're upset, take some time to write something cogent and calm. You'll make your point and won't give the "other side" motivation to come in and point out where you're being unfair/hyperbolic/insulting (etc.). So your thread is likely to remain open, and your concerns more likely to be taken seriously.

People want to believe that they are censored or can't speak their mind here. But that's not true at all. I'm living proof that you can praise Turbine when you feel it is warranted and criticize them when you feel it is warranted and still get along just fine on these forums. . . I've been called a pro-Turbine "fanboi" and an anti-Turbine zealot in equal measure. Yet I've never truly felt that I could not speak freely in either case (with perhaps one exception that was probably all in my head!).

--H

[djheydt]

1. If you find yourself spending a good amount of time attempting to rewrite your post/response in a manner that will squeak by the moderators, you might just be headed in the wrong direction.
2. If you have to resort to utilizing symbols and special characters to get past the filters, you might just be headed in the wrong direction.
3. If you link to a site that permits uncensored flaming rather than present a plausible intelligent well respected argument, you might just be headed in the wrong direction.
4. If you utilize the slang terms of Fanboi, newbs, care bears and the like, you might just be headed in the wrong direction.
5. Any thread that starts with "My other thread was closed" is an indication that you might just be headed in the wrong direction.
6. Insulting someone for voicing an arbitrary opinion in an intelligent manner.
7. Go Play WoW is another way of simply spewing trash. That and the new found constant lamentations on how SWTOR will kill this game utilized for every argument to change this game.

Oh, excellent. + rep and virtual doughnuts to you too.

A good wordsmith can cut down anyone and even get positive rep from someone opposing their opinion if they demonstrate an intelligent argument.

Indeed. As we say in the SCA, Do not meddle in the affairs of bards, for your name is silly and scans to the metre of Greensleeves.

No one needs to resort to trash talk and profanity to get their point across. The rules for argumentative engagements are there as a guideline, not as artificial barrier to which one attempts to get as close to without crossing the line. Most people are cognizant of when they have pushed the limits and are provoking moderators and their fellow players. Basically, as a Drill Sergeant instilled in me one day "You're wrong; and you know you're wrong".

Virtual snickerdoodles to go with the doughnuts.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

Lots of people have different opinions.

It's often surprising to find, when you go beyond people's opinions and discover their values, how often you find common ground. You'll frequently discover that what others value is very similar to what you value.

I agree. I tend to put my energy into accomplishing my goal. I will take one example from my list of wasted effort.

I want my money back. There are times when I am annoyed at a purchase I want my money back or some compensation. I will not come to a place like General Discussion for it. I am going to research the provider. Contact privately someone that has the authority to help me. I have a plan as to what compensation I want. I will have a outline of what the problem is. Why I deserve my compensation.

I come to General Discussion with a "I want my money back". It is not because I want my money back. The goal in this case is Bad Press. I am trying to punish the provider for their bad service. If they decide to offer me a cookie, I might very well agree to shut up for the cookie. I was not here for the cookie. Some companies browse online complaints - try to calm - offer compensation - to shut em up.

IMHO - It works a lot better to work the system. Document everything. If you do not have success. Write a well written - no grammar - no punctuation - no poor word choice - letter to someone like the CEO of the company. Either send it to their private email address. Or send it snail mail. At least you get a gate keeper to look at it.

If 100 people were to send individual self written letters to Barry M. Meyer and copy Martin Temblay, you might get some reaction. You would have bypassed Turbine, gone into the executives of Warner Brothers.

[StavroMuellerBeta]

True enough, but I have seen threads where someone posts a well-spoken complaint about the LOTRO service or Turbine, and because pro-Turbine posters came in and started baiting posters in that thread, the thread got closed,

To be fair, this mainly happens after several rounds of post deletions, or when the thread as a whole has reached the point of no return. One person usually can't get a thread locked on their own (but that doesn't stop them from trying), it's only when people choose to take the bait that problems happen and threads get locked.

[Cindir]

Although posts do get closed sometimes, I would say in general Turbine is very open to having posts that are critical of the game on the forums. No system is perfect, but in general I would say they are very tolerant. We all benefit from their efforts to keep the forums a civil and safe place to discuss the game.

I think the OP was made in response to the thread on the Dragon raid, which was closed. It should be noted that there are posts on this in the raid forums http://forums.lotro.com/forumdisplay...and-Skirmishes , so there is still a place to continue that discussion.

[Sapience]

How about an example of what Sapience was trying to get at instead of pointless mis-direction...

A complaint (Note: Post was in response to the last Anniversary Event, which had a large grind associated with it, and also in response to the OD token grind)

Very good example. While we couldn't address it directly at the time, we did try to make up for some of the issues with the lotteries if you'll recall and promised to do better for our Fifth Anniversary. A promise we haven't forgotten. There are, what we expect will be very welcome, changes coming to the anniversary event as a direct result of that thread.

[Thorsvin]

Patience also said the "LOTRO Store will offer convenience, not advantage."

You won't find those posts on this forum. To quote a jedi, "These are not the droids you are looking for."

[BellusDuFenna]

To be fair, this mainly happens after several rounds of post deletions, or when the thread as a whole has reached the point of no return. One person usually can't get a thread locked on their own (but that doesn't stop them from trying), it's only when people choose to take the bait that problems happen and threads get locked.

My point being, of course, that those people repeatedly baiting other players into getting mad and threads thus getting locked should not still be posting here. they are causing these problems, taking reasonable discussions and turning them ugly through their baiting, and they should be dealt with.

And yet they are still here, posting daily. So tell me, what would that tell you, if you were a third-party observing the discussions from outside? It would appear that Turbine does not deal with those pro-Turbine baiters, although they are the root cause of the problem in many threads.

Starting fights is, I believe, against the Forum Rules, is it not? So why are baiters starting fights - regardless of whether they are pro-Turbine posters - allowed to post for years, while those they bait into getting mad are dealt with swiftly?

That's my point. It looks as if Turbine is biased and gives those pro-Turbine baiters a free pass (not saying that's true, just saying how it looks), and I believe this is why some people are getting afraid to complain at all on these forums. Even if they are reasonable, polite, and well-spoken, they know there are pro-Turbine posters that will eventually get their thread closed here, so why bother discussing their issue here at all?

[Arbalister]

I "complain" about aspects of this game all the time.

And, on the other side of the coin, I tend to defend Turbine more then I complain - though I've logged my share of complaints, some here, most in closed betas. However...

(one infraction momentarily gave me pause, but in hindsight, I deserved it).

... like Hurin, I've pulled a few forum warnings. I've stopped and rewritten posts when I thought they might be over the top, and at least once I've let one go that I *knew* was going to get a warning... and there's at least one that made me go, "Really?" because I really didn't think it was actionable.

I point this out just to assure people that might doubt it, that enforcement of the CoC and ToS isn't one sided.

[Lilka]

I suspect this is not what you're asking, but rather asking permission to discuss things you feel are probably out of bounds. Because you said, "game mechanics", I'm also going to assume you mean exploits. Discussing exploits, or potential exploits on the forums is prohibited. If you suspect you've found one, report it and bug it. The only thing discussing an exploit on the forums does is expose it to everyone reading, almost insuring they'll all try it, making matters far worse. Using the bug report tool to report it gets the information where it needs to go and let's us work on it. Posting about it in the forums, is encouraging (intentionally or not) others to try it themselves.

I had a feeling reading the OP this was what was being discussed.

Would it not be better to have a public service announcement type of dev post where you say "We know you're doing it, we're working on how to stop you doing it, people need to be careful of others doing it."

[Arbalister]

I had a feeling reading the OP this was what was being discussed.

Would it not be better to have a public service announcement type of dev post where you say "We know you're doing it, we're working on how to stop you doing it, people need to be careful of others doing it."

It's a fine line - simply acknowledging that there is some sort of exploit will encourage people of a certain mindset to go out and look further, to find out what it is, and to use it. And if there *is* such an exploit, they *will* find something posted about it somewhere. Turbine can't control all the sites that will happily leak it. Confirming that there's something to look for, here, isn't really the course of wisdom, is it?

[Brinswith]

can i just confirm that my OP has nothing at all to do with any exploits at all. I now have the answers i need from the posts in this thread. it can now be locked

both Lilka and Sapience have now made false assumptions.