Hey Orion can we hear about update 6 yet? :)

[geoboy]

Aw, damn. I dont believe i'm writing this, but...Are our issues tied to the class, or simply to the kind of armor our chars wear?*

the kind of armor our chars wear

[Orion]

Aw, damn. I dont believe i'm writing this, but...Are our issues tied to the class, or simply to the kind of armor our chars wear? Would it help us, if our wardens were given an option to wear heavy armor? An legendary trait, or simply trainable skill? *hides behind his shield, waiting for the barrage of javelins. Then realizes how stupid that move is, and runs to hide behind nearest guardian - cursing RoI all the time.*

It's not a question of the class being the issue, or the armour being the issue or legendary traits.

It's more a perfect storm of changes that ended up causing deficiencies in some spots. I can tell you this: On our internal test server we watched a shield traited Warden solo a truly epic boss. Now the fight, if it had gone to its conclusion, would have taken a very, very, very long time to play out but the Warden would have won. His health hovered between 50-90% for the majority of the fight as we watched him. He is a Waden, one whom I tip my hat to.

Now, this was not under real circumstances, just a raid boss that we spawned for this warden to fight. So it is far from a scientific test, in this case but it proves that Wardens can survive as tanks in one-on-one situations.

The trick now is getting the class abilities to augment the deficiencies that exist in armor, critical mitigation, and some other spots crucial to tanks to correct the inequalities that were exacerbated with RoI.

[geoboy]

The trick now is getting the class abilities to augment the deficiencies that exist in armor, critical mitigation, and some other spots crucial to tanks to correct the inequalities that were exacerbated with RoI.

Thanks. This has allayed my fears considerably. Looking forward to update 6.

[Mysterion]

It's not a question of the class being the issue, or the armour being the issue or legendary traits.

It's more a perfect storm of changes that ended up causing deficiencies in some spots. I can tell you this: On our internal test server we watched a shield traited Warden solo a truly epic boss. Now the fight, if it had gone to its conclusion, would have taken a very, very, very long time to play out but the Warden would have won. His health hovered between 50-90% for the majority of the fight as we watched him. He is a Waden, one whom I tip my hat to.

Now, this was not under real circumstances, just a raid boss that we spawned for this warden to fight. So it is far from a scientific test, in this case but it proves that Wardens can survive as tanks in one-on-one situations.

The trick now is getting the class abilities to augment the deficiencies that exist in armor, critical mitigation, and some other spots crucial to tanks to correct the inequalities that were exacerbated with RoI.

Good to hear. I like the sound of being survivable again, and in control of my fate to a certain extent.

[Liltaro]

Warden will be balanced at "waden skill level"? Poor casual alts

[MashtaJurioz]

I feel left out... Waden?

[geoboy]

I feel left out... Waden?

A really old warden meme. You lose the 'R' when you figure out how to play the class well, and stop being a noob warden. Someone in a perpetual state of fail would be considered a warrrrden.

[Bels_illuminati]

It's more a perfect storm of changes that ended up causing deficiencies in some spots. I can tell you this: On our internal test server we watched a shield traited Warden solo a truly epic boss. Now the fight, if it had gone to its conclusion, would have taken a very, very, very long time to play out but the Warden would have won. His health hovered between 50-90% for the majority of the fight as we watched him. He is a Waden, one whom I tip my hat to.

Is it not easy to predict this sort of solo ability through some simple maths?
Take roughly the best gear available in game, work out a roughly optimum self heal and avoidance rotation and then compare it to the boss DPS and finesse etc. (Work out our incoming heals per sec, our power use per sec, the boss dps after mitigations etc).
Sure if some kiting is required then small elements of player skill are involved but with most soloable content once a Warden is geared and pretty capable there isn't a huge amount of player skill involved in these sorts of scenarios.

I've always felt that actually Wardens are very strong against one or two foes while o live we are weakest against large, multi-mob raid pulls. Ironic really given that no other tanks are as good at aggroing a vast number of mobs as us. I guess this has always been one of the great contrasts with warden tanks.

[Iznogoot]

Pre-ROI I used to be able to tank Surviving Barrow-Down and left the guards in awe... Give us the glory days back.

[Solyaris]

It's not a question of the class being the issue, or the armour being the issue or legendary traits.

It's more a perfect storm of changes that ended up causing deficiencies in some spots. I can tell you this: On our internal test server we watched a shield traited Warden solo a truly epic boss. Now the fight, if it had gone to its conclusion, would have taken a very, very, very long time to play out but the Warden would have won. His health hovered between 50-90% for the majority of the fight as we watched him. He is a Waden, one whom I tip my hat to.

Now, this was not under real circumstances, just a raid boss that we spawned for this warden to fight. So it is far from a scientific test, in this case but it proves that Wardens can survive as tanks in one-on-one situations.

The trick now is getting the class abilities to augment the deficiencies that exist in armor, critical mitigation, and some other spots crucial to tanks to correct the inequalities that were exacerbated with RoI.

This is a bit worrysome! First, you had to test something which is very simple to mathematicaly prove, second; our issues does not lay in solo envirment, but rather raids, so I doubt this boss was that epic. You have all the numbers, you know what sort of DPS most end-game bosses is gonna do (2000 DPS before mit?), you know a warden can keep up 4 avoidance gambits (SD,ST,DoW,SB) along the 5 HoTs and you know the max mit/avoidance for a guardian. TPS (taken-pr-sec) is gonna be roughly 1000 DPS for warden - HoTs (400HoTs?) vs 600 DPS for guardian. Warden need to take at least 30-40% less then guardian else he will be prefered (with good reasons), just look at pre-RoI

First thing you should do is increase or max mit to 55%. Dont need to change armor, just the cap! Just for the record, we are taking higher avg hits then heavies are taking max hits. Then give us loads of crit rating, make us immune or something simular. You have a long way to go if you want to balance 70% mit against 50% mit without touching either mit-caps or crit-rating.

I heared a pod-cast saying you used a lot of time in the forums, that is much appreciated=)

[Dahbee]

It's not a question of the class being the issue, or the armour being the issue or legendary traits.

It's more a perfect storm of changes that ended up causing deficiencies in some spots. I can tell you this: On our internal test server we watched a shield traited Warden solo a truly epic boss. Now the fight, if it had gone to its conclusion, would have taken a very, very, very long time to play out but the Warden would have won. His health hovered between 50-90% for the majority of the fight as we watched him. He is a Waden, one whom I tip my hat to.

Now, this was not under real circumstances, just a raid boss that we spawned for this warden to fight. So it is far from a scientific test, in this case but it proves that Wardens can survive as tanks in one-on-one situations.

The trick now is getting the class abilities to augment the deficiencies that exist in armor, critical mitigation, and some other spots crucial to tanks to correct the inequalities that were exacerbated with RoI.

I'm sorry Orion, but that is a bad example because it begs to have ump-teen ton of questions of how every last detail was set up for this test, including how old the the "truly epic boss" was, I call BS without picts/vids since scenario's like that are never completely biased. It might carry weight if it was viewed on BR by a crowd, but doing it on private servers leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Feraxks]

I'm sorry Orion, but that is a bad example because it begs to have ump-teen ton of questions of how every last detail was set up for this test, including how old the the "truly epic boss" was, I call BS without picts/vids since scenario's like that are never completely biased. It might carry weight if it was viewed on BR by a crowd, but doing it on private servers leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

flabbergasted.....the last two posts prove that the haters will always hate.

[Feraxks]

Really, you like forced march? With the new mount speed I rarely even use it for resource gathering. Nothing is more annoying than gathering ore in Tal Mathedras near the frogs when they aggro on you and you lose your speed buff and incur that horrible power penalty. I guess it is useful for fetch quests...of which I'll do 0 of until the next level cap increase.

I use the sprint way more often than forced march. I use it in combat, out of combat, in towns, resource gathering and probably other occasions. I really need to get out to the moors before my sub expires to give it a whirl out there.

Forced march isn't even useful when slayer deeding grey mobs b/c of the power penalty.

ROFL -- you're sarcasm detector isn't working again!

[Mrhasty]

On our internal test server we watched a shield traited Warden solo a truly epic boss.

Solo is not and has never been the wardens problem. Please conduct your tests against Arch-nemesis and not Elite Masters.

[Constrictions]

Is there any chance you can take a look at the way finesse effects wardens in the moors?

Heck, for every class there seems to be a problem with finesse in the moors, so probably badgering Kelsan may be better for my case, but creeps are slicing through my BPE like bread and butter. With roughly 25% block, I was only parsing 8% block. (Only from two or three looks at the combat analysis). Same went for my evade and parry chances.

[Mysterion]

ROFL -- you're sarcasm detector isn't working again!

It has been broken for awhile now. About as long as my warden has been broken. Too many wardens shocking me with their superiority complexes and saying everything was ok, broke it I think. Or level 50 wardens telling me I don't know how to play the class may have contributed.

I'm just looking forward to testing U5 and hearing more about U6. Adding </sarcasm> or /sarcasm might help, but I'd hate to ask everyone to do that just because I can no longer detect sarcasm.

Here is a gif, hopefully it will make up for my shortfalls.

[Feybobiam]

Warden will be balanced at "waden skill level"? Poor casual alts

It sounds like the opposite to me; Wardens being balanced around what a solo'er can do, not what a raider can do.

I guess we'll see.

[kermie-lee]

The trick now is getting the class abilities to augment the deficiencies that exist in armor, critical mitigation, and some other spots crucial to tanks to correct the inequalities that were exacerbated with RoI.

Very encouraging to read that. Thanks so much for your time and attention to the issues Wardens are facing. Please continue to keep us in the loop and let us know if/how we can help.

[greendragoon100]

Orion, I just wanted to say that I greatly appreciate you're willingness to talk about upcoming changes this far out. If you haven't figured it out from the Warden forum post count, we like to talk about this class, a lot. We'll get more debating done in a week than other classes will get in a month. I do look forward to debating any and all tid-bits you wish to give us.

[Zed2]

It's not a question of the class being the issue, or the armour being the issue or legendary traits.

...

The trick now is getting the class abilities to augment the deficiencies that exist in armor, critical mitigation, and some other spots crucial to tanks to correct the inequalities that were exacerbated with RoI.

No offense but aren't you contradicting yourself ("armour is not the issue"... "deficiencies exist in armor")? Armour may not be "the" issue but it is definitely part of the issue. One suggestion to address the medium armour issue was to give Wardens a trait similar to what Minstrel's got when they lost the ability to wear medium armour. That would seem to be a suggestion worthy of consideration. It would seem also that critical defense/mitigation could likewise be added to Warden shields, or carvings, or a trait.

Regarding your solo test, that shouldn't come as a surprise to any capable Warden. We can still handle challenging one-on-one's as long as we don't get unlucky with devastates or stuns/knock-downs. I still feel quite confident solo'ing stuff but not as confident to ask for an invite to a raid (I would probably get denied unless the people know me).

[Orion]

This is a bit worrysome! First, you had to test something which is very simple to mathematicaly prove, second; our issues does not lay in solo envirment, but rather raids, so I doubt this boss was that epic. You have all the numbers, you know what sort of DPS most end-game bosses is gonna do (2000 DPS before mit?), you know a warden can keep up 4 avoidance gambits (SD,ST,DoW,SB) along the 5 HoTs and you know the max mit/avoidance for a guardian. TPS (taken-pr-sec) is gonna be roughly 1000 DPS for warden - HoTs (400HoTs?) vs 600 DPS for guardian. Warden need to take at least 30-40% less then guardian else he will be prefered (with good reasons), just look at pre-RoI

First thing you should do is increase or max mit to 55%. Dont need to change armor, just the cap! Just for the record, we are taking higher avg hits then heavies are taking max hits. Then give us loads of crit rating, make us immune or something simular. You have a long way to go if you want to balance 70% mit against 50% mit without touching either mit-caps or crit-rating.

I heared a pod-cast saying you used a lot of time in the forums, that is much appreciated=)

No Solyaris and others, we didn't test this; we observed it, it was fun to watch.

Though this was not a test, it was indeed against an Arch-nemesis. Like I said, fun to watch.

[Zed2]

...
I've always felt that actually Wardens are very strong against one or two foes while o live we are weakest against large, multi-mob raid pulls. Ironic really given that no other tanks are as good at aggroing a vast number of mobs as us. I guess this has always been one of the great contrasts with warden tanks.

... not sure I follow you here... are you saying that Wardens are good at aggroing a vast number of mobs but weak against them?

I would say that Guardians are better at aggroing a vast number of mobs and holding that aggro. I can confidently hold single-target aggro against the strongest DPS'ers (or against a Guardian) but with a large group of mobs or picking up adds, I think it's easier for a Guardian.

I haven't found any aoe threat skills to be nearly as effective as PB is on a single target... especially when you throw in Aggression now and then. If someone has tips on how to optimally hold mob aggro, I'd be interested in hearing them (e.g. throw a couple hard-hitting Champs into the mix and hold aggro through all the schwing-schwings).

[xrayvisionnw]

I swear after 270 posts. Orion
must read these things and just
have to laugh his butt off
some times

However, you have to admire
the passion of the
Warden Community

[Abiyah]

... not sure I follow you here... are you saying that Wardens are good at aggroing a vast number of mobs but weak against them?

I would say that Guardians are better at aggroing a vast number of mobs and holding that aggro. I can confidently hold single-target aggro against the strongest DPS'ers (or against a Guardian) but with a large group of mobs or picking up adds, I think it's easier for a Guardian.

I haven't found any aoe threat skills to be nearly as effective as PB is on a single target... especially when you throw in Aggression now and then. If someone has tips on how to optimally hold mob aggro, I'd be interested in hearing them (e.g. throw a couple hard-hitting Champs into the mix and hold aggro through all the schwing-schwings).

Lol, well, you CAN aggro everybody (any class can, actually), but then get beat to death by all that aggro.

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

Are you kidding me? Soloing is not tanking.